I am very interested in the Gorre and Daphetid, and want a lot of info, such as Locomotive Roster and surviving locomotives. A lot of forums from 10 years ago are available, but all of the photos are broken, and many never truly answer the question. I want to make one place where you can get hard facts and information on the amazing G&D. On to my first question: Other than the #34, what other locos are surviving. I've heard a #43 or #45, both berkshires, are still around, and #35, an 0-6-6-0 is severely damaged, but still surviving. Is there truth to eaither of these, and is there any pictues. the amazing source for all of this, gdlines.com, is broken and no longer available.
THanks, TM05//MatthewB.
The book "Model Railroading with John Allen" by Lin Wescott has all the information you seek, but it is copyrighted material.
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The only survivor I know of is #34, and maybe the legendary stolen 2-4-0 might be out there somewhere.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I thought I had heard that John had given a Berk to a friend, because a large road engine like a NKP Berk doesn't belong on the G&D. Also, at the beginning of an OLD Bachmann forum, it says that someone came across a fire damaged warped #35. Thanks for your response, though.
TM05/MatthewB.
I definately want to get my hands on that book, when possible.
There is a half hour video of the layout that survives. Sunday River is the producers I do believe.
As for info, George Selios might be willing to talk with you. Allen is his idol and where the F&SM is based on.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
There is a Yahoo Group dedicated to the Gorre & Daphetid with lots of pictures and information, along with a number of people who are replicating the famous model railroad.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GandD
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
NVSRR As for info, George Selios might be willing to talk with you. Allen is his idol and where the F&SM is based on.
Hey Allen was my model railroad idol also. He completely messed up my first marriage as during our honeymoon in 1962, I purchased an RMC featuring his layout. All I wanted to do was read and read again this incredible article, and instead of going to beach with new wife, all I could do was dream about and rough sketch my dream pike.....which became a reality decades and several wives later. (I have never claimed that my groundhog was fully baked)
HZ
NVSRRThere is a half hour video of the layout that survives. Sunday River is the producers I do believe.
I would actually suggest NOT watching that video.
Much of the magic of the GORRE & DAPHETID comes from John Allen's photography work.
The layout really looks terrible in that video. I was sorry I ever looked at it.
I wish there was a real professional film of the G&D out there somewhere. Or... maybe... someone could use CGI and enhance the Sunday River video up to Star Wars standards. Maybe a job for a Pixar intern.
Even if the video does look awful, what else do we have? Other than John's amazing photography, there is no known footage of the G&D left. 30 mins of film of this amazing layout, albeit crappy film, is better than nothing, I think. Also, does anyone have any clue about G&D #35 or #43 surviving? As I stated earlier, I have heard that these are both still around.
There was some more that survived than just the engine that currently resides at Kalambach #34. (although the things were heavily damaged) Here is a link to the article.
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel2.html
At one point there was a couple of articles in the NGSL Gazette with a little bit that survived that was narrow gauge.
Jim
Oh God... Like seeing ghosts. Wow. Thanks a lot. Most of those trains probably won't run ever again, but just seeing them and knowing they exist... Wow.
Thanks a lot, TM05/MatthewB.
I thought it was really neat seeing those pictures- Even though they are greatly damaged it is amazing that there was that much left after the fire. You would think all the solder joints would fall apart. The article in the Gazette showed some charred remains out of the DG&H combine. I don't remember the issue but it may have been Jan or Mar 2006. I had the John Allen book- it was damaged beyond use along with some other books when we had some water get in our storage unit. Jim
RR_MelHave you looked at the G&D web page.
Wow Mel, that is one great site! One could spend a lot of time there. That "TrainPlayer" looks interesting.
Mike.
My You Tube
drgwcs There was some more that survived than just the engine that currently resides at Kalambach #34. (although the things were heavily damaged) Here is a link to the article. http://gdlines.org/GDLines/The_Satchel2.html At one point there was a couple of articles in the NGSL Gazette with a little bit that survived that was narrow gauge. Jim
I was gradually changing from "running my trains" to "building a scale model railroad" with American Flyer S gauge trains, but he never slighted my tinplate stuff, even giving me subscriptions to Kalmbach's Model Trains magazine until it disolved. But he bought Model Railroader religiously and picked up interesting copies of Railroad Model Craftsman on occasion. Of course, I devoured his copies whenever I visited him and his family in Vets' Housing, and both of us avidly pored over John Allen's photos and articles--even the photos in the Varney ads--whenever they appeared. (As an aside: we thought the name of his railroad was the "Gory and Daffittid" at the time. I believe John regretted and grew tired of the whimsical name soon after he started "railroadin'"--after it was too late to change it.) Looking through that slide show really took me back to those happy times. Thanks again.
Deano
I almost think the best memorial locomotive is 4-6-0 #49 embedded in lead. It almost shows the locomotive "flying" off to wherever John went to after his heart attack. This probably sounds stupid, but I wonder if any of the original G&D locos could ever run again. MAybe for Model Railroader's 100th anniversary, they could try to fire up #34.
Thanks, TM05/MatthewB.
I think this book 'John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid' is what you want if you can find it.
The group has changed adresses and is easier to join and to use now. https://groups.io/g/GandD
https://www.facebook.com/Great-Divide-Lines-423511918192732/?modal=admin_todo_tour
I've had the Sunday River G&D video for quite a few years, I don't think it's bad. The earliest footage (IIRC) is from his earlier (early 1950's) layout and shows trains scooting around pretty fast. The later footage of the "classic" GD (probably late 1960's era footage) shows the trains running slower. Given the limitations of film that long ago, it's really pretty good - and as noted, good or bad, it's basically all we've got.
Well there might be some new fun. Check out "Great Divide Lines" on facebook sometime.
Do you ever think part of the draw of the layout is the fact it was distroyed. True John and his layout were ahead of their times by a wide margin but there were others too.
rrebell Do you ever think part of the draw of the layout is the fact it was distroyed. True John and his layout were ahead of their times by a wide margin but there were others too.
You’ve got a point. We should also note that John also passed away unexpectedly. Nonetheless John was a revolutionary modeler who also had a skill with photograph (not to mention modeling!). This gave him alot of press. I suspect if one of today’s well publicizes layouts was destroyed it could gain similar fame. Still John Allen was the true pioneer of many things in our hobby and is in a league of his own. I can’t think of anyone past or present who has had more influence on the hobby and more of a legacy (Maybe Al Kalmbach near matches John’s legacy).
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
I became a total and compete John Allen fan, just from the magazine articles I saw since the late 1960's. It seems to me today's audience views John and his layout is with the same fascination in seeing the photographs just like I saw. I have heard John Allen's name mentioned by so many excellent modelers of today as a major influence on them and often (like myself) the reason they got so involved in this hobby/industry. I have never heard of anyone becoming fascinated with John Allen or the Gorre and Daphetid because it burned. I'd say anything is possible but thist is pretty fanciful concept. Why pondering the least likely of possibilities, when there are so many great reasons to be inspired by the memory of the real thing and so many speak of it. Howard Zane is right here in this comments thread saying exactly this as well. Nuff for me.
I don't know that the layout being destroyed really made that big of a difference, since most 'great' model railroads end up being torn out sooner or later - sometimes by the person who built it.
I think a lot of it was the quality of the layout plus his skill as a professional photographer. The pictures in RMC and MR of the layout were framed to not show anything not part of the layout's scenery. Before John Allen came along in the 1940's, many layout pictures were just someone standing back with a "Brownie" and taking a snapshot of as much of their layout as possible, usually from a fairly high angle and including the control panel, storage shelves, basement wall, etc.
John was a pioneer in using low angles, realistic lighting, and other 'artistic' techniques which, when coupled (no pun intended) to his top-flight engines, rolling stock, buildings, and scenery, made an indelible impression on model railroading.
First, I am a fan of John Allen and his G&D. I have the book that Linn Westcott wrote and periodically reread it.
But the one who really got me going in model railroading the most was John Armstrong and his books/articles on designing layouts for operations. Even today some 48 years into the hobby, he's the major inspiration for me.
I think a key difference between the 2 is that John Allen never finished the mainline on his last and largest G&D layout. And he worked on it 20 years. John Armstrong never finished the scenery on his Canadaigua Southern in 50 years, but he did finish the mainline early on.
I think both of them and Linn Westcott as editor of MR were the giants of their day. Not there weren't others before and others after, but their time was when model railroading really got off the ground.
Paul
Hello All,
I have the paperback version of the book by Linn Wescott. I found it used on Amazon.
Check out this link for both paperback and hardcover: https://www.amazon.com/Model-Railroading-Allen-Hanson-Westcott/dp/0890242984/ref=sr_1_2?crid=ICXBARDZCJWT&keywords=gorre+and+daphetid&qid=1556053477&s=gateway&sprefix=Gorre+and+%2Caps%2C194&sr=8-2-spell
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
The G&D was HUGELY popular in the hobby press long before it was destroyed. For many of the reasons already mentioned. Going back to the original tiny layout, smaller than a 4x8.
There were naysayers, even then - there was an MR recollection that they got a nasty letter about too much John Allen - when MR hadn't run so much as a picture of his in months. There was, however, an article that month in RMC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
There's no doubt that John Allen, Linn Westcott, Jack Work and several other people whose names we could mention pushed the model railroading envelope. It's interesting tp speculate what they would do if they were young men with the resources available in 2019. Who are the 'giants' active now?
One often left out of these lists is Paul Larson. Incredibly talented modeler, he was quite young when he became editor of MR.
Not saying john was not great, butit seems we humans have a facination with tragedy. His early death and the loss of his railroad just after, moved him even further into legend status.