For many years, I was the ultimate freelancer as I have never met a locomotive or piece of rolling stock I disliked...so even though my Piermont Division pike was loosely based on Appalachian railroads, the Piermont management would lease equipment from many US and Canadian roads. This enabled me to play with any choo choo I liked. Only recently I decided to model Erie,PRR, and NYC late steam and early diesels...or better put 1950. I grew up with these railroads. I also witnessed and had a strong history with the CNJ, DL&W, O&W, LV, and D&H. So visitors will see equipment now from all of these roads and still others that wind my clock. The only rule I know in this hobby is to have fun and play with anything you like. It is your railroad.
HZ
Just based on all the messages posted in this thread, my candidate for the least modeled railroad, is the Penn Central. I know it is sacrilegious to even mention the PC in the presence of a Pennsylvania fan, but I was there for the entire life (February 1968 through March 1976), and I do admit to modeling the railroad, along with the Reading.
Boris
You are from Jersey Shore? I'm from Loyalsock Twp.
My buddy who is taking over a train store in South Central PA during January (for real) is a PRR fan, and he also buys and runs PC, Conrail, and NS stuff. (Do not be concerned; all employees including the former owner are staying and the customer service will remain the same or even better--nobody will know anything changed).
The days of people, even perhaps including myself at a few points, not being able to "forgive" Penn Central for "killing" what came before, are just plain over and done. When I was a kid, it was the railroad I saw, period. That and Reading...They are what I remember.
My friends who were unable to accept Penn Central--many of them are now dead and buried. Sorry to say, but that is the reality. I miss them greatly, but anybody can run anything they want to run on my layout and I do accept visitors.
My layout is designed to accommodate anything except some of the largest brass steamers. All the diecast and plastic articulateds can run, and have.
John
P.S. There is a PC Historical Society, and I think the Conrail Historical Society is or was until recently even headquartered in my town, Marysville, near the west end of the Rockville Bridge. To the best of my knowledge, the local guys all get along now, whether it be PRR, PC, CR, RDG, what have you. I no longer actively railfan, as my chance of seeing former Santa Fe stuff is rather small now.
Glad to hear of your friend keeping that hobby shop open. For those that like modern shortlines such as the Lake State Railway. There is a really nice video on YouTube uploaded by delay in block. As well as a few others. I have a couple older brass diesels bound for a painter next spring to be painted in their latest paint scheme. A GP40 and a pair of SD40s should make good power for a small layout
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
PRR8259You are from Jersey Shore? I'm from Loyalsock Twp.
I'm originally from SE Pennsylvania, but under the auspices of Conrail, I have lived in numerous places including Metro DC, Baltimore and now Central Jersey.
I am a member of the PCRRHS, but not the CR society. My modeling interest varied depending on where I lived at the time, but has reverted to SE Pennsylvania, specifically the PC and Reading lines in Chester and Marcus Hook.
The PC has somewhat of a bum rap, as they handled a lot of business both freight and passenger in a more reliable manner esecially when compared to their successor lines. Clearly, the people at the top had a different vision than those who operated the railroad, but even starved of cash, the railroad functioned mostly reliably.
Conrail, actually implemented the PC merger plan, and had some legislative relief, from regulation, but primarily did what PC planned on but failed to implement.
I chose to model the PC, because I was there for the whole time it existed, while my time with Conrail was twice interupted by side trips to Amtrak has a culture that is a cross between the old PRR and a Government agency.
I ran a poll on my blog last month, and here are the results. All of the railroads below have one vote, exept CP, B&M, and NH.
2
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
John,You obviously don't know any NH fans. NH fans will never forgive what PC did to the NH. The arrogance of the new bosses, the Poughkeepsie Bridge fire, the staged derailments to allow for track abandonment, the sabotage of passenger trains, etc. Heck, they tried to single track the NEC between Providence, RI and New Haven, CT and abandon the still-going-strong-today Providence & Worcester.
A fellow club member was a junior engineer in an office in Boston's South Station in the early PC era. He was sent to the basement to get something, and found a treasure trove of NH and pre-NH railroad records, drawings, and paperwork going back over 100 years. When he returned a month or so later, they were all gone. When he asked what happened, they told him PC threw it all in the dumpster.
PC owned the very last DL-109 in existence in South Boston. Jim Bradley, who had purchased a number of heavyweight passenger cars from the NH, made an offer for the loco. PC scrapped it instead.
The late 1960's and 1970's was the absolute nadir of American railroads, and PC was the biggest American business failure until Enron. Wow, sounds like fun; I can't imagine why more people don't want to model this era.
Boris,PC deserves every ounce of that bum rap. Standing derailments...that doesn't tend to happen these days but they sure did on PC. They were losing a $1 million a day.
Operated in a more reliable manner than their successors? I hope you're not serious. In the early 1970's, my grandfather shipped a car of dry ice from Pennsylvania to Boston...they found it in Texas. When PC put together a 4 or 5 engine set, how often were all of them still running by the time they got to the end of the run?
I'm always amused when people bring up Conrail as being what PC could have been. But they always forget to throw in the other railroads that formed PC: E-L, L&HR, AA, LV, RDG, and CNJ, which gave CR practically a complete monopoly in the Northeast. And not to mention billions of dollars of government money.
Besides, if CR and PC was such a great idea, why did they split it up in roughly NYC and PRR-sized pieces?
The PC merger should have never happened in the first place, and it took them 30 years to fix it.
Your beloved new Haven was broke itself and wasn't going to survive any how, besides the PC was forced to take the broken road, they didn't want it, he'll, prr and nyc people didn't get along, so you think they were going to salvage that road, stop whining about the pc, it happened because the road was a failure.
Paul3 were all of why did they split it up in roughly NYC and PRR-sized pieces?
were all of why did they split it up in roughly NYC and PRR-sized pieces?
They didn't? CSX and NS each were already bigger than the PC. They just sawed off PRR and NYC sized chunks.
Hi Boris--
I was apparently confused: Jersey Shore is also a small town in North Central PA located maybe 15 miles west of Newberry Junction, the westernmost terminus of the Reading RR and interchange with NYC, which dried up Reading bridge traffic after PC.
Paul--
Seriously, you seem to think PC had some kind of monopoly on bad railroad management????
Southern Pacific treated passengers so horribly during their train-off petitions (to influence them not to ride the trains) that Fred Frailey states in his various writings that SP ticked off the government officials, who later held a grudge against SP, and ultimately played a role in sinking the SPSF merger during the 1980's.
Yet people still model SP, and SPSF; in fact SP has a pretty good fan base despite lackluster management in some later years.
What people saw and experienced trackside is undoubtedly different from what financial analysts or stockholders might have witnessed. For some people PC may be the only railroad they knew. Indeed the only living F unit my one friend ever saw was a PC F unit and he is glad he was there that day to see it.
We are 42 years after PC now; it borders on ancient history just like steam...if somebody wants a fleet of green "mating worms" freight cars on their layout, or Alcos, why should I rain on their parade?
Whatever the history was, in our model worlds things can be re-imagined.
I have a photographer friend who collects O gauge trains. He likes the most infamous fallen flags the most and just enjoys those paint schemes. I dont try to tell him not to buy them...with his extensive library he knows the history better than me.
I think that realistic ATSF steam is hard to come by and could be considered barely modeled. Recently, I’ve only seen a few 2-8-2s, a few 4-6-2s and occasionally a 4-8-4.
BLI is actually doing a decent job with HO ATSF steam. They have done correct ATSF 2-8-2, 2-10-2, 4-8-4, and 2-10-4 power (at least the first 2-10-4 ever). Some have sold well and can be a challenge to find now--but they exist. It is much better for ATSF fans now than for roads like B&O, etc. Just about every major ATSF steam class has been done in HO brass. That is amazing...and PFM United ATSF 2-8-0's are cheap and easily found anywhere. Thousands were imported.
The warbaby ex-N&W Y-3 class 2-8-8-2's are easily found in plastic, Proto 2000.
NittanyLion CSX and NS each were already bigger than the PC. They just sawed off PRR and NYC sized chunks.
CSX and NS wasn't even around in PC days..Conrail was formed from the ashes of PC and several other bankrupt Eastern railroads.
The Feds made N&W the guardian of the E-L so it wouldn't fall into the hands of PC..E-L would become a part of CR.
BTW. N&W did not want the that job since E-L was a compeitor of N&W's NKP lines from the East.
CR worked as planned and would still be going strong today if NS and CSX kept their paws off of CR. Think of it CR went from Federally ran to public stock hold in IIRC ten years.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIECSX and NS wasn't even around in PC days..Conrail was formed from the ashes of PC and several other bankrupt Eastern railroads.
Yes.
The point I'm making is that CSX and NS were already massive when they absorbed their chunks of Conrail (which was really just a truce because both wanted the whole dang thing). It isn't like the original statement of "if PC was such a great idea that they split it back up into its original parts" is even close to true. Both CSX and NS wanted all of it.
NittanyLionYes. The point I'm making is that CSX and NS were already massive when they absorbed their chunks of Conrail (which was really just a truce because both wanted the whole dang thing). It isn't like the original statement of "if PC was such a great idea that they split it back up into its original parts" is even close to true. Both CSX and NS wanted all of it.
The battle lines was drawn when NS made a move to buyout CR but,CSX would have none of that so,a bidding war begin and when the dust was settled CR was chopped into pieces including CRSAO.
Wasn't for CR a lot of the CR roads would have went bankrupt faded into history.
PC would have worked but,poor management,in house fighting,the brotherhoods and various States served by PC doom PC.
Odd these same States did not fight CR when,shops was closed,yards, branch lines and miles of main lines was abandoned by CR.
BRAKIE Wasn't for CR a lot of the CR roads would have went bankrupt faded into history. PC would have worked but,poor management,in house fighting,the brotherhoods and various States served by PC...
PC would have worked but,poor management,in house fighting,the brotherhoods and various States served by PC...
Not would have gone bankrupt at all--they all were bankrupt before Conrail. Conrail was formed partly to assure that rail service in the whole region didn't go away completely. If the government hadn't stepped in there would have been more loss of service than there was--extensive loss of service. It would have been an economic hardship for some shippers.
Pennsylvania had more miles of Class 1 railroad than any other state ever did--you can look it up. As use of anthracite coal declined (and a large part of the eastern anthracite field was flooded after mining too close to the bottom of the river), there were too many duplicate rail lines fighting over the scraps that remained. This combined with the completion of major portions of the PA Turnpike NE Extension during 1956-1957 resulted in Lehigh Valley never making a profit again! I don't know how they survived so long, except PRR owned a controlling interest and kept LV "alive".
Penn Central stopped making the per diem payments, etc. to their neighboring roads by 1969. In addition, Penn Central took bridge traffic away from some of them as well. As a direct result, roads like the Reading were already bankrupt by 1970, and Hurricane (Tropical Storm) Agnes in June of 1972 only added to the financial woes of the region by washing away track and bridges.
Most of Penn Central's mgmt was more interested in lining their retirement portfolio's than actually running a railroad (they were purely crooks); then they forced out Alfred Perlman...who only went on to save the financially ailing Western Pacific in two years.
Conrail's lack of any marketing at all to businesses within the region did result in huge portions of railroads having now vanished without hardly a trace remaining to tell they were ever there. They wanted to be an end-to-end high speed unit train railroad, and they did make money that way.
I just know this much, the late 60's and early 70's are the trains of my youth, and I have no interest in modeling them. It was a depressing time in railroad history.
Sheldon
Paul3The PC merger should have never happened in the first place, and it took them 30 years to fix it.
Paul: I agree that the merger never should have happened in the first place. However, the reality was that both railroads were in a world of hurt, (neither survived World War 2 in good shape), and were desperate for a solution. No one else wanted anything to do with them.
I defend my premise that they operated better than their successors, I was mainly referring to the likes of Metro North , NJ Transit and SEPTA, as well as Amtrak. They all get away with stuff, PC would never have attempted, such as shutting down and cancelling trains when it snows Freight wise, it depended on the customer. Single shipments were not sought after, they were interested in serving the big shippers only. They did that fairly well.
The fellow who held the purse strings, didn't want to invest any money into the railroad, he wanted to become a conglamorate. Meanwhile, PC was a take all comers common carrier, and did pretty well under the circumstances. Conrail, once Staggers was passed, was able to unload a whole bunch of redundant railroad and undesirable business.
In 1973, I spent more time on the Port Road Branch wrecking, than I spent any where else, but that was in the aftermath of Tropical Storm Agnes in 1972. Once the track bed dried out and they decided to spend some money on resurfacing, the problem went away.
Standing derailments? Yes, I witnessed one myself. A car trapped on an out of service track ultimately derailed. It was not easy trying to explain that to the boss.
Considering the constant volume of freight that choked yards and terminals as well as main tracks, and the large numbers of 10 MPH speed restrictions we had to contend with, it worked better than it should.
Oh yeah, they really didn't want to absorb the New Haven, and it showed.
BRAKIEOdd these same States did not fight CR when,shops was closed,yards, branch lines and miles of main lines was abandoned by CR.
That's because the 4R Act that created Conrail, specifically prohibited State and Local regulation of Conrail.
Sheldon--
lol--this time I agree with you! However, if someone chooses to model that time, more power to them--have at it. It was a colorful time as roads like the Reading instituted a new green with yellow stripes paint scheme just so they could easily tell which diesels had been purchased after bankruptcy.
Lehigh Valley seemingly changed paint schemes with nearly every class of diesel that showed up on the property--so for railfans--it was "the best of times and the worst of times"...
PRR8259 BLI is actually doing a decent job with HO ATSF steam. They have done correct ATSF 2-8-2, 2-10-2, 4-8-4, and 2-10-4 power (at least the first 2-10-4 ever). Some have sold well and can be a challenge to find now--but they exist. It is much better for ATSF fans now than for roads like B&O, etc. Just about every major ATSF steam class has been done in HO brass. That is amazing...and PFM United ATSF 2-8-0's are cheap and easily found anywhere. Thousands were imported. The warbaby ex-N&W Y-3 class 2-8-8-2's are easily found in plastic, Proto 2000.
You are certainly correct that ATSF steam afficionados should be happy with the offerings available in plastic. My minor gripe would be that these are all (perhaps except for the 2-8-2) pretty large engines. If you model an ATSF branch line and need small steam, you have to resort to brass.
And as to the 2-8-2, the BLI product on the market is a foobie, a USRA Mike adorned with the lettering "ATSF". The "true" ATSF class 4000 2-8-2 is, to the best of my knowledge, still in the development stage. BLI's web site shows only drawings, not even a pre-production model.
JW
Sorry I thought the Santa Fe mike was out by now, or due "soon".
Well, in the latter years of Santa Fe there were few "small" steamers left. With very few tunnels or clearance restrictions, they gravitated toward the largest non-articulated steam power ever seen, the very largest 4-8-4 and 2-10-4's of all time, and they had plenty of them!
If I have it right, there were several years when only the big steam was in service at all. Many Santa Fe fans seem to model the transition era and would have red warbonnet diesels mixed with very large steam power.
Ramon Rhodes likes to refer to the older generation of the SFRHMS as the "steam mafia"...until recent years there was very little acceptance of the 1970's and 1980's diesel era. Most members have seemed to stick to the pre-Amtrak era, 1971 and prior or the final years of the "Superfleet" red warbonnets on freight.
PRR8259I was apparently confused
That's OK, I'm frequently confused. Pennsylvania has some unique names for towns, such as California, Indiana and Jersey Shore, that are neither Native American or English. I'm sort of familiar with Newberry and Ruppert, and my Dad was from Schuylkill County.
Wolf359 I'd like to see some of the mainstream manufacturers, (like Bachmann or Athearn for example) come out with some models of Colorado Midland locomotives and rolling stock. I've seen a few brass models of CM locos, but they're nothing I can afford. So, I don't have any right now, but I've been hunting for locos suitable for conversion to a CM loco at swap-meets and my local hobby shop. My favorite popular railroad however, is Union Pacific.
I'd like to see some of the mainstream manufacturers, (like Bachmann or Athearn for example) come out with some models of Colorado Midland locomotives and rolling stock. I've seen a few brass models of CM locos, but they're nothing I can afford. So, I don't have any right now, but I've been hunting for locos suitable for conversion to a CM loco at swap-meets and my local hobby shop. My favorite popular railroad however, is Union Pacific.
I bought an HO Colorado Midland boxcar from Roundhouse about 5 years ago. I was considering modeling it as if it had survived into the modern era. Part of the lack of CM models has to do with the fact that they have been gone a hundred years, and it's just not relatable to many people. Right now I am planing to model the C&S in On30. (They have been gone only 75 years) I bought Bachmann's C&S mogul, passenger cars, freight cars. Now I am waiting on a C&S 2-8-0, but Bachmann seems more focused on more exotic offerings.
m horton,Oh, yes, the NH was bankrupt and in horrible shape throughout the 1960's. Their last profitable years were the ones in which they hauled the building materials for the Conn. Turnpike (I-95) in the mid to late 1950's. PRR/NYC didn't want the NH as the NH was $50+ million in debt by the end. The industrial base in southern New England was rapidly decreasing, and air shuttles and highways were killing what was left. The NH was an eventual business failure.
However, the NH had it's glory days. Most NH fans don't model the late 1960's...it's too depressing. Before that, the NH spent decades as one of the most powerful railroads in the country, controlled by titans of industry like J.P. Morgan and Charles Mellon, or shady (but colorful) characters like Pat McGinnis. At one time it called itself the "Aristrocrat of New England Transportation", and they weren't that far off.
The PC never had those glory days. They started with 2 (then 3) failing railroads in 1968-69 that were already in rough shape, then commenced to fail even harder by going bankrupt in 1970, and then threatening total liquidation by 1973.
I will continue to "whine" about the PC. It never should have happened. You don't take two parallel roads, merge them, then try to keep both. PC is a lesson on what not to do.
NittanyLion,That's what I said. They cut CR into (roughly) PRR and NYC sized chunks. NS got the former PRR, and CSX got the former NYC. There are exceptions (after all, CR was more than just PC and the CR SAA is still running), but for the most part, what should have happened (N&W/PRR, C&O/NYC) is what we have today. Monopolies are good for the monopoly's bottom line, but bad for everyone else. The STB recognize that when they approved a CR split instead of approving a CSX/CR-only or NS/CR-only merger. Of course CSX and NS wanted all of it as CR was a profitable business, but it would be bad for the nation to allow that...something that the ICC should of recognized in the 1960's.
John,No, the PC didn't have a monopoly on bad management or hard times. Most every railroad has experienced that, but few model those eras. The difference is that PC only had hard times...there is no PC era where they had good management, when they treated people well, when they were a powerful growing business. The PC is all about failure because that's all they had and all they are known for.
I doubt too many people only knew the PC. It was only around for 8 years and that was 42 years ago.
My problem with PC modelers (other than I think jade green is a yucky color) is that few of them model reality. Knee high weeds in the gauge, terrible track, dead locos, peeling paint, rust, dirty equipment, trash along the RoW, broken windows, lost trains, derailments, etc. That's PC realism. I think most of them just look at the roster and go wow, look at all the neat things PC had, and ignore the malaise.
Brakie,Of course CR worked; monopolies usually do. A lack of competition does wonders for the bottom line.
And NS didn't start the CR break-up. Sure, they tried to buy CR in the 1980's but that was rejected ("Let Conrail be Conrail"). CSX is the one that tried to buy CR in the 1990's, and NS is the one that objected. NS ended up with 58% of CR, 42% for CSX.
Paul3they hauled the building materials for the Conn. Turnpike (I-95
Russell
Paul3I will continue to "whine" about the PC. It never should have happened.
PC would have worked but,the deck was stacked from the word go from headquarters on down,shippers and States that fought every abandment PC wanted.
CR was never a monoply.
As far as CSX..CSX couldn't bid its way out of a wet paper bag-CSX pockets wasn't deep enough.
Always fascinated by the Lehigh and New England and their black and while Alco diesels
I was speaking relatively, not necessarily literally:
There is a generation of us who during our formative years remember just about only PC (and perhaps a dash of RDG or something else), like my photographer friend from western PA.
I'm glad your formative memories were of happier railroads in happier times than some of ours.