The difference between myself and a lot of modelers.

[Anonymous]

Muddycreek,
It's interesting, some here say that RTR is the future. Even you proclaim it will attract new people and new people are the life of the future of the hobby. Manufacturers make decisions based on the market. RTR is better for the manufacturer as he is adding value to his product. The market being attracted to a product with value added is a very good thing from the manufacturer's point of view. As simple as this explanation is, it explains one of the reasons kits are loosing ground to RTR.

Now, let me explain my position. I try not to take on a position that is not defensible and I enjoy discussions, if they can keep from flipping into personal attacks. You have bent things I have said and I don't appreciate this.

To back my position, I have older Walther's catalogs? I have talked to hobby shop owners. I look at what is offered at the various MRR websites and offered in the pages of the various model railroading publications. From these references, I feel my position is warranted, substantiated and is what I have based my argument on. It is not simply my opinions on possible phase-outs, based on anecdotal evidence, with dubious arguments, or with a lack of concrete evidence! Also backing my position are the majority of respondents to this post.

In the end, this is a small point in a large continuum and is inconsequential. The market will drive what happens within the hobby and us dinosaurs which still like to glue tab A into slot B, will be gone. However, we shall be taking our wisdom with us!

[Anonymous]

I think the key is finding a balance. What do you enjoy spending time on? What would you rather not spend time on? We are at an interesting juncture in the hobby. RTR locomotives and cars are not what the RTR of the past were. When I first got in the hobby HO RTR seemed to be Brass (way to expensive even then) or lesser quality stuff (the old Life Like, Model Power etc). If you wanted decent running relatively inexpensive stuff you went with Athearn the RDC/Roundhouse kits. RTR was the equivalent of "junk." Today that is not the case, although I think perceptions sometimes are what governs (how long did it take for people to realize stuff made in Japan wasn't junk?).

We have accepted RTR track (snap track, manufactured turnouts and flextrack when compared to handlaying is RTR) and controls (remember the numerous articles that used to be in the mags concerning building your own transistor throtte?). We've also accepted RTR DCC and other electronics (remember Wescotts Twin T detectors?

Yes, I enjoy building kits and would prefer that everything be kits. I'm sure that there are people that would prefer everything be RTR. Neither view is, I think, entirely realistic. As much as I enjoy building benchwork (I really do) I realize that there are people that hate it. I am actually glad that there are manufacturers of benchwork "kits" and that foam has made a big showing. I also actually enjoy wiring and making electronic things (like some of the transistor throttles) but am glad that lots of this stuff can now be bought off the shelf. How many people would not be as into this hobby if these things weren't available?

It would be interesting to see in a couple of years how many folks that entered this hobby by purchasing RTR equipment decided to weather and repaint their RTR. Then do some RTR bashing and then decided to try kits? Would be interesting!

Bottom line - the more folks that get into this hobby, the more products that will be available - at least that's my hope!

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by philnrunt

ericsp- other than collecting Hot Wheel cars, I don't know of too many hobbies that 25$ would go very far in. I'm afraid the days of the cheap hobby are limited. I still find BB kits for 5-7$, but these used to go for 3-4$.

The $25 gift certificate could have gone further if kits are bought instead of RTR. Let us examine what could be bought with that gift certificate, using MSRP.
Locomotives are any kind of out.
2 or 3 Athearn Blue Box, Accurail, MDC, Branchline Trains, Bowser, C&BT Shops, CM SHops, Intermountain, Grandt Line, Stewart Hobbies (most singles), or (if you can find two) Walthers kits, or Con-Cor
1 Branchline Trains kit, Athearn RTR, 1 MDC RTR, 1 Walthers RTR (some more expensive than $25), Atlas (only about half are less than $25), Red Caboose or Funaro & Camerlengo kit
Athearn Genesis, most Atlas, Intermountain, Kadee, and Trix are all out.

My point was that there are probably people who if they walk into a hobby shop and see manu kits (and associated prices) are more likely to become model railroaders than if the hobby shop has mainly RTR (and the associated prices).

Also, I checked the model aircraft section. The prices of most of the kits I saw were more in line with train kit prices.

[cwaldman]

I suppose that the longer I am in the hobby, the more I have distinctions as to what i am attracted to. I am a big fan of John Allen and have read the book about the G&D many many times. i think a key statement is at the end where it says he struck a happy medium between detailing and illusion. Something along that line.

I sort of took that to heart. If a person were to apply equal time to every area, you probably never would get done with a normal size layout. Of course this is alright. A layout is never done is it? However, I doubt there is anyone who doesn't want to see decent progress.

To that extent, I am not about to sit there and weigh every car to ensure they are all the same weight. I am not going to spend an hour painting a figure to be placed in an area it is not going to be appreciated. I don't detail the back of building that will never be seen. Even if I buy a craftsman kit that takes 6 weeks to put together, I am not spending time on areas not seen.

I am fine buying pre-painted figures, ready to run cars, Engines and so on. I do not buy pre-made buildings, I love doing fine detailing on the scenery. I think everyone finds a compromise in the hobby.

http://homepage.mac.com/cgwaldman/PhotoAlbum1.html

Cletus

[MisterBeasley]

Does anybody cook? I enjoy it, and I enjoy it more when I have the time to do it right. I do main courses and vegetables, but I don't do baked goods and I never make desserts. Yes, there's a lot of pride in putting it on the table, too. But I also love to eat at a good restaurant.

I'm just pulling my old trains out of a 30-year slumber in the attic. I'm looking forward to all the new challenges - DCC, real scenery, knuckle couplers and a whole lot of restoration. I probably won't scratch-build anything, at least not for a while, but I'm game for anything else. I'm sure I'll find things I like doing, and things I don't care for. But overall, I'm planning to enjoy it. And it wouldn't surprise me if the sun comes up some morning and finds me still working in my shop.

[Anonymous]

I'm not interested in fighting with you or anyone else. I just disagree with the assumption that one person's idea of model railroading is ruining anyone else's future enjoyment of the hobby. I was just looking for tangible evidence why my purchasing a RTR boxcar signals the end of model railroading as we know it. I just haven't seen it and no one here's demonstrated it yet.

I see a peaceful co-existance as the future. Manufacturers will be happy to accomodate all.

Wayne (the curmudgeon?)

[Anonymous]

Muddycreek, I GIVE UP!! You have missconstrude what I have said and are attempting to turn me into a bad guy because I chose a topic you disagree with. I am tired of attempting to bring up what I think are interesting and thought provoking topics on this forum, only to have some curmudgeon attempt to make an *** out of me. I am starting to think there is a contingent on here who only want to get into fights and this is making this forum pretty boring!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane


Muddy creek, Saying you don't give a "hoot" how (what you do) effects anyone else's modeling, is certainly not going to win you too many friends in this hobby!

Also, I wasn't really looking for anyone to guarrentee me anything! It was simply a statement that I believe RTR is affecting kits, but, kits are not affecting RTR.

Excuse me for talking about a subject that IS important to me! Now, if you'll excuse me, the sky is falling!

We're not talking anti-social behavior, here. We're talking about buying model railroad items, a simple act that reflects personal interests in an aspect of modeling. I'll say it again: when I buy an RTR boxcar, I don't give a hoot how it affects anyone else's modeling. Are you saying that I should give up purchasing what interests me because of some dubious argument that there will be fewer items offered that interest you? Or that I should just feel guilty about it? Sorry, I don't think so.

I haven't seen any concrete evidence my RTR boxcar has any noticible effect on your modeling. I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact that you don't like RTR and I'm certainly not changing my buying habits because of it any more than you should change because of my preferences.

I don't buy into the us-vs-them issue that you do. There's room for all in this hobby and manufacturers will accomodate the market place where there is demand.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

Mr. DeShane discusses a "possible phase-out of simple to moderate complexity...kits" and requests a guarantee from RTRs that this won't happen. Certainly no modeler owes him anything because their purchasing preference differs from his. Frankly, when I buy an RTR boxcar, I don't give a hoot how it affects anyone else's modeling.

Lot's of anecdotal claims and worry about "possible phase-outs." If one needs assurances of some sort, perhaps it should be the manufacturer that provides it? Are there any real industry statistics indicating phasing out one offering in favor of another or is this just another "us-vs-them," non-issue?

Wayne

Muddy creek, Saying you don't give a "hoot" how (what you do) effects anyone else's modeling, is certainly not going to win you too many friends in this hobby!

Also, I wasn't really looking for anyone to guarrentee me anything! It was simply a statement that I believe RTR is affecting kits, but, kits are not affecting RTR.

Excuse me for talking about a subject that IS important to me! Now, if you'll excuse me, the sky is falling!

[Cox 47]

I consider my self a builder I build because I like to But now that I am retired and on a very limited budget its a necessity My materials have changed some to I use more cardstock and balsa because I can't afford some of the materials I use including windows. But no mater how you go at it Its still the greatest hobby in the world!!! Cox 47

[ClinchValleySD40]

It doesn't matter to me if it's a kit or RTR. If I like it, I'll buy it.

[Anonymous]

More new modelers will be attracted to the hobby through RTR and new modelers are what will allow this hobby to survive, in my opinion.

We're all too focused on our own little niche and see increased offerings in other areas as some sort of threat. Mr. DeShane discusses a "possible phase-out of simple to moderate complexity...kits" and requests a guarantee from RTRs that this won't happen. Certainly no modeler owes him anything because their purchasing preference differs from his. Frankly, when I buy an RTR boxcar, I don't give a hoot how it affects anyone else's modeling.

I can't comment on rolling stock or loco kits because I prefer RTR, but I see absolutely no shortage or reduction in availability of structure kits. It appears that I have more choices now than ever in the past.

Lot's of anecdotal claims and worry about "possible phase-outs." If one needs assurances of some sort, perhaps it should be the manufacturer that provides it? Are there any real industry statistics indicating phasing out one offering in favor of another or is this just another "us-vs-them," non-issue?

Wayne

[CNJ831]

With regard to the question of is the burgeoning of RTR hurting the classic model railroading hobbyist, I'd have to reply with a resounding yes.

Obvious, from the manufacturers' standpoint, it is much better to offer limited production runs of a much more expensive item. The savings for them by using off-shore labor, lesser amounts of outside components and basic materials, little or no stocking, and reduced shipping, is a boon. They recognize through their latest sales that there is a small but well-to-do fraction of hobbyists that can support their manufacturing practices - at least short-term - more proffitably than selling hords of less expensive kits (requiring a larger business infrastructure) to hobbyists wanting to make smaller purchases of basic kits over than extended period.

Those who pay careful attention to what is in the pipeline for 2005 will already know that such historically classic modeler oriented companies as DPM and WS are about to start offering major RTR products lines. The former will have completely finished, superdetailed. weathered structures available, while WS will offer a series of modular layout sections needing only track and some of their foam products and pre-finished trees to complete. Even MR has lately included articles about commercially built layouts - little more than an extended, free ads for the builder.

Based on what I see in the way of poster's responses, classic modelers appear to probably still outnumber exclusively RTRers 5 or even 10 to 1. But if the shift towards RTR continues, I'd say the hobby's future viability is in serious question. While this hobby used to be about creativity and modeling skills, its future seems only to hold promise for those with fat wallets.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I have only been involved with Model RR'ing for a little better than a year. prior to this, I built styrene kits of aircraft, armor, and autos. I just recently bought a stack of P2K hoppers in kit form to save money. I could not believe the small parts, some of which were almost impossible to remove from the sprues withoug damage. My eyes and fingers don't want these anymore, so I look for "deals" on E-bay and sales on the internet for RTR stuff, but I still build BB and MDC kits, and all my structures are kit form. Just finished 4 Snyder fuel cranes, but the first one didn't come out as planned. I like to think I prefer kits, but sometimes my physical limitations get in the way.

[Anonymous]

As usual, I need to clarify some points on my post. I was referring to what I will call the traditional scale modeling scales. I mean; O-Scale, S-Scale and HO-Scale. I'm not an N-Scaler! However, it is my understanding that not much in rolling stock, has ever been available in kits for N. Nor am I a tinplater, so, I am not talking about the tin-plate crowd. As I read in the modeling press, not much of anything appears to be available in O-Scale or S-Scale, so scratch, kit-bash or kits are all there is. Therefore, in particular, my post is addressed towards HO scale.

Specifically, I see a trend towards more RTR rolling stock and pre-built structures. I see this trend effecting the availability of kits with a possible phase-out of simple to moderate complexity (LLP2K, Red Caboose, etc.) kits. My opinion is this trend is a bad direction the hobby is taking! If you RTRers could guarantee that these kits weren't going to be phased-out, I'd say "Have-At-Her"! My buying kits is not effecting the RTRers. I can't say the same, in reverse!

Yes, you can buy a complete layout, RTR. Few of us can afford one. Craftsman (wood, resin) kits will likely always be available as there is demand.

[Anonymous]

I was not aware that you could buy RTR layotu scenery, track and roadbed, and wiring systems? I thought all those had to be built. The things that you are discussing RTR are things like buildings and rolling stock. Now I do not want RTR buildings but Rolling Stock yes. I do not want to deal with the small crap. See the real work and the imagination work is of course not available RTR. As a modeler we all must do some of the same stuff. Maybe not make trees but do the scenery. Thats is not RTR. Making mountains and rocks Wiring the layout and the accessories like the snap or tortoise switches. All that is part of the fun work. after having to do all that stuff some of us do not want to deal with rolling stock building, Although I love to build a building or structure kit then paint it. I do sometimes get the RTR structure but I paint it if I can to make it look different. That is a rare purchase though. Basically there is not a big list of RTR stuff as opposed to the "have to build" list. You might be able to get the track with the ballast on it but you still must lay the track and wire it and add the switches. RTR does not mean faster operation, just less agravation of building something for some thats all.

[Anonymous]

Well i think your concern is well founded.I read an article in the nmra scale rails mag,about the number of contestants entering scratch built models at shows and conventions had dropped to an alarming rate.Time is allways the essence today most people don't want to wait on anything let alone take the time to plan design and build a true scratch built model.All my buildings on my layout are laser cut wood kits,with a few older cambells and gloor craft kits,as close to scratch building as my skill has allowed me to progress.I have attempted scratch building with not so great results where buildings are concerned.Of all the people i know here in my area only a few that actually scratch build anything. I have allways hoped that someday I would have enough skill and confidence to start scratchbuilding but again with my limited amout of time that i have to devote to my layout,buy the time i get to that point there might not be anyone left here where I can go see how they solved a perticular problem. Some of the most spectacular layouts i have ever seen where heavily scratchbuilt and their beauty was in their difference to all the regular run of the mill layouts that all look the same just arranged differently.To those of you who use rtr hey it's your layout,for those of you who scratchbuild i hope you continue to do so ,that why there's someone with the ability to answer questions when someone like me gets to that point.

[Anonymous]

Ya I totally agree with DeShane. I like puting in the handrails and other stuff on locomotives. Generally I hate RTR, especially RTR structures. Most of the structures on my layout are DPM. I like their simple design but it's also fun to build more complex models and scratch build. Oh by the way does anybody have a good scratch building plan for a modern building? thanks

[philnrunt]

ericsp- other than collecting Hot Wheel cars, I don't know of too many hobbies that 25$ would go very far in. I'm afraid the days of the cheap hobby are limited. I still find BB kits for 5-7$, but these used to go for 3-4$.
I agree with those who said it's how you want to spend your time, I'm not a carpenter, my attempts at benchwork really are bad. So I use styrofoam and pre- milled pieces that are easy to assemble. Love building structures tho, I'll gladly scratchbuild them and take as long as I want to. And RTR cars are fine and dandy with me, they look pretty good to my eye. Due to their price, I might only buy 1 or 2 a month as compared to 5-10 BB kits, but I don't need any more than that. I ,like some others, have about 45 kits waiting to be built.
It seems to come down to what you like to do. Just like a hobby should be.[:)]

[ericsp]

I would not care about RTR versus kits if it were not for some model train manufacturers convert partially (Athearn) or completely (Walthers) to RTR. I would assume that Walthers cars are made in the same plant(s) their kits (of the same prototype) used to be made in. Would it be too expensive to package some fraction without assembling them? Athearn's latest newsletter said that in regards to the kits, they should have "a full slate of models in production". Hopefully this year was slow due to the move to a new plant and next year they will produce more. Maybe even some of the RTR stuff not offered as kits.

I have heard it said that the RTR will bring more people to the hobby. However, it will probably keep people from it. I was shopping at a hobby shop a little while before Christmas. There was a woman in there looking at the trains. She muttered something about a $25 gift certificate would not go very far there (by the way, it looked like she left without purchasing a gift certificate). So, while there will be people that like the idea of not having to assemble anything, there will also be people who are interested in trains, go in and see all of the RTR prices (not many kits in hobby shops anymore) and decide on another hobby.

[trolleyboy]

[#ditto] You have to try in this hobby after all it is model railroading so wether you kitbash build a shake the box or scratchbuild you are modeling,which means you are creating something not simply purchasing it. If a bank account is all it takes then why isn't Donald Trump and Bill Gates model railroaders because they could certainly purchase the best darn layouts on the planet.But would they have fun or have the pleasure of completing something with their hands instead of aquiring it with a platinum amex? trolleyboy

[Jetrock]

I made this analogy once before, but perhaps it bears repeating: I wouldn't consider paying someone to build a "custom layout" for me any more than I'd pay someone to make love to my wife for me! Quite frankly, my time just isn't THAT valuable...

I mean, even if he's more skilled than you are, you don't even get the satisfaction of saying you tried!!

[twhite]

I'm in the middle on this. I've been model railroading ever since Athearn and Varney were metal car kits with six zillion parts apiece, the kits from Model Die Casting meant DIE CAST, Silver Streak kits consisted of painted and lettered car-sides and what looked like a miniature lumber-yard of other parts, Walthers passenger cars meant that you spent more time sanding down the curve on the roof than you did building the rest of the kit--did I have fun? You betcha! I've still got those cars and they're still on the tracks (albiet now with P2K and Kadee trucks) cut into my Accurail, Intermountain and Red Caboose consists. I've still got some trusty old Roundhouse 'screwdriver' locos that I built from kits chugging around. I enjoy them. I'm glad I bought them, I'm glad I built them. I'm just as proud of them as I am my new BLI's with the sound of the steamers I grew up with. But I'm 65 now, the eyes aren't what they used to be, there's some quivers in the fingers that weren't there back in my '20's and '30's, so those little plastic grab irons on the Intermountain kits don't go where they're supposed to, half the time, and why bother putting on brake rigging that I can't even SEE anymore? Hey, I'm not sentient, and I'm certainly not lazy, and I'm still kitbashing structures like crazy, but THANK YOU, Red Caboose for that Western Pacific PFE reefer that I can just take out of the box and put behind my loco and get operating. Because the time I would have spent putting you together, I can now spend on Sculptamolding that canyon and getting the river bed ready for the Realistic Water so that the train of ready-made cars can go over my kit-bashed Microscale Tall Viaduct and actually cross over a RIVER, instead of those molded pink foam forms. What I'm saying is, I like it both ways. Whatever saves me some time in one aspect of the hobby means I can devote that time to another. Relay some track in the yards, make sure those turnout points are solid--Hell, try building some of Aggrojone's furnace-filter pine trees. There's enough to keep me going on my layout at any given time that I hardly can feel guilty because I chose a RTR reefer instead of a thousand-part kit. Been there, done that with the old Athearns. And had a lot of fun doing it. But now I've got some canyonsides to mold, guys. And believe me, you don't buy THOSE puppies ready-to-run!
Tom

[Virginian]

For me, it starts with something I want. If it's available only RTR or in a craftsman kit is irrelavent. If it's available more than one way, price creeps into the equation. Frankly, I find it incredible that RTR can be cheaper than a craftsman kit, but it usually is, and so therefore I will get the RTR in that case.

[grayfox1119]

Guys, the answer is quite simple, you do as you like personally. Yes, there are other factors that enter in, like money, skill,TIME, desire to see it done, etc. etc., but it always comes down to each person's drive and desire. Some love the layout of a great track route through mountains, across great bridges, etc. Other love scenery, building the mountains and rivers, striving for as much naturalism as possible, and then taking the great pride in what they have achieved. Others love to "run" the railroad, scheduling, making consists, etc. It is as varied as New England weather. But we all have one common denominator......we love model railroading!!

grayfox1119[:D][:D]

[JerryZeman]

I simply don't understand why there has to be this ongoing debate of RTR vs. building kits / kitbashing / scratchbuilding.

Yes, I admit, I would prefer an option when it comes to a cheaper price for cars like Intermountain, Red Caboose, Kadee, and would purchase kits if available. The problem is, I already have a pile of said kits, and they have been sitting on my shelf for over six years!. The ones that I bought RTR are on the railroad, and hauling revenue freight. [:)]

I also enjoy building my model railroad, but I definitely look forward to the day when it is sceniced and done, and then I can get back to what I enjoy, detailing and painting motive power. I haven't had a chance to do that either, as there is a railroad to build.

If people enjoy kits, great. If they don't care if their railroad is ever built, that is fine too. Personally, I want my railroad to get built, and there is enough stuff to kitbash, scratchbuild, modify, paint, weather, install, scenic, etc. that I will take advantage of RTR it wherever I can, as long as it meets my needs.

Personally, I don't find building Intermountain or Red Caboose cars very enjoyable to build. They are time consuming, small parts tend to disappear into the black hole called my workshop floor, and I can think of other things I'd rather do in the hobby. When I complete something like a WFE reefer, I don't get a great feeling of accomplishment, all I see is another 23 reefers to put together, and realize that it is over 40 hours of work to get them complete.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[tatans]

This topic does bring up a question, Was the original intention of model railroading (in it's infancy) to promote model building?? I'm pretty sure early on there were not too many companies making materials or kits for bulding things, so I would believe if you wanted a building or bridge you actually had to make it, this sort of sounds like the "chicken or egg theory" I'm referring above to H.O. only. Another theory may be in the LIONEL era making buildings by hand was a spinoff to present day kits and materials, anyone have factual information on my wild theories????

[Anonymous]

In regards to models, I purchase what will work for me. In regards to the layout, I am in the camp of Steven Priest in that I would like to have the layout complete with in a specific time frame. To me, a completed layout is much more fun to operate.
Ch[xx(]

[fiatfan]

Hi, Mark

First, congratulations on starting a good, honest-to-God discussion topic.

I agree with you in part. I love building. I have enjoyed every phase of the construction of my layout. Since I’m still in the early stages, there is more to do than I can even begin to count. I want to ad a couple loading docks to a DPM warehouse. I need to bash a DPM kit to use a a view block to cover the fact that the trains really are just running in circles. I have spent the last month building less than a foot of sidewalk. Last night I poured plaster for a street. I have spent about 6 weeks trying to get the color of the streets right.

I could go on for a long time, listing the things I have built or am building. On the other hand, I took a P2K GP-18 apart to lube the gearboxes last summer and still don’t have it back together right. I will get it but I have several other engines (including another GP-18) that work just fine so I will get to that eventually.

When it comes to building/bashing rolling stock, no way! I don’t have the patience or skill to do that and am not interested in learning. Routine maintenance I can handle (sort of, see last paragraph) but that’s as far as it goes. Maybe when I’m retired (three years and counting) I will feel differently but for now, get the cars on the track, run trains, and build scenery. That’s all I’m interested in.

End of speech. I am getting off my soapbox, dismantling it, and using the lumber to build another part of the train table.

Tom

PS my granddaughter is 18 [:D][:D][:D]

[IRONROOSTER]

I think of the layout as scratchbuilding/kitbuilding project. The parts are the cars, the locomotives, the track, the roadbed, the benchwork, the wiring, the structures, etc. Just as a boxcar project can include RTR parts such as brake wheels or grabirons so can my layout project include RTR parts such as locomotives and boxcars.

Heck there are people who have RTR layouts, professionals come in and build the whole thing. It really comes down to what do you enjoy doing with your hobby time.

One of the nice things about this hobby is I can kit build, scratch/parts build, and RTR as the mood strikes me (all of which I have done and will continue to do), it doesn't have to be all one or the other.

I agree RTR will change the hobby, I think it will attract more people and I think larger layouts will get built as a result. Just as plastic kits allowed modelers to have bigger fleets of cars, RTR will allow them to have bigger layouts.

Enjoy
Paul