QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by IRONROOSTER I disagree that the manufacturers are forcing RTR on me or anyone. I admit my eyesight isn't what it used to be, but I don't recall anyone holding a gun to my head to force me to buy RTR. Further more I don't think there is massive conspiracy among manufacturers to overcharge us on RTR while eliminating the kits we "really" want. The truth is that, with the low cost of labor in China (and elsewhere), RTR is about the same as kits for rolling stock (I don't know how many RTR structures are done there now, but it'll go up if demand warrants). I love the touch you threw in about about being creative and having individual skills [i.e. being a "real" model railroader} only if you build plastic kits. When I first got into this hobby 33 years ago, people who built plastic kits were looked down on as not being "real" model railroaders - wood and metal cratfsman kits were tolerated as a training course to become a "real" model railroader. IMHO a model railroader is any one who enjoys building and/or running and/or collecting railroad models - scale, tinplate, and hirail all included. Paul It is worth noting that I do not regard the current situation in the hobby, where RTR is slowly forcing out kit availability, as part of a manufacturers' "conspiracy". It is real and, unfortunately, what we see happening as a standard business model or practice today in many areas far removed from our hobby: to sell the product at the greatest profit margin with the least number of units while curtailing every possible overhead cost (in our case much of which comes from maintaining and handling/shipping a stock of unsold items/kits). Even the simplest business math will demonstrate that there is far, far more profit to be gained for a given company in selling an expensive RTR item over a kit offered at half the list price or less. And, no, quite honestly I do not consider a person who has invested absolutely no personal time, skills or craftsmanship in their commercially built layout, running all RTR equipment, to be a model railroader. To me such folks would be in the same class as the 7 year old kid whose father presented him with a completed Lionel layout at Christmas...they are both just playing with trains. In my book real model railroaders "create" a layout themselves regardless of it being scale or tin-plate. All the rest are just, at best, model railroading "enthusiasts". CNJ831
QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by IRONROOSTER I disagree that the manufacturers are forcing RTR on me or anyone. I admit my eyesight isn't what it used to be, but I don't recall anyone holding a gun to my head to force me to buy RTR. Further more I don't think there is massive conspiracy among manufacturers to overcharge us on RTR while eliminating the kits we "really" want. The truth is that, with the low cost of labor in China (and elsewhere), RTR is about the same as kits for rolling stock (I don't know how many RTR structures are done there now, but it'll go up if demand warrants). I love the touch you threw in about about being creative and having individual skills [i.e. being a "real" model railroader} only if you build plastic kits. When I first got into this hobby 33 years ago, people who built plastic kits were looked down on as not being "real" model railroaders - wood and metal cratfsman kits were tolerated as a training course to become a "real" model railroader. IMHO a model railroader is any one who enjoys building and/or running and/or collecting railroad models - scale, tinplate, and hirail all included. Paul
QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by CNJ831 With regard to your first point I can only say that where I live if an item is available in both kit and RTR, the price at least doubles for the latter. Most of the more expensive items aren't even offered as kits, they're only RTR. As you even admit, the "sales" figures you use to illustrate your point are pure speculation and not based on anything factual. As such they can not possibly demonstrate anything in the actual state of the hobby. While more and more items are being offered RTR it does not necessarily mean that demand is rapidly growing...simply that this is the manufacturers' new business plan, common to just about all of today's manufacturing areas (get rid of your product as quickly as possible and cut overhead to nil). I have seen nothing anywhere to suggest that RTR is of great popularity across the board. A handful of posts on this board reflects absolutely nothing as to the desires of the hobby as a whole...it's simply not statistically significant. Now if MR ran a poll of its entire readship, that would have meaning, but we have nothing of the sort to refer to. Yes, manufacturers make what will sell. But today it is done on such a limited run basis it is possible (after a little market research) to sell 100% of _any_ item immediately. It is not a matter of popularity, it's one of buy it right now or never see it again. And as the manufacturers progressively turn to higher priced RTR-only you will most certainly see over time not a small fraction of modelers withdrawn from the hobby because of spiraling prices but rather a majority. Our hobby is totally dominated by guys over 50. Take away what they enjoyed at reasonable prices for years in the hobby and the hobby itself will vannish. No, I don't want folks that would rather have RTR to give up on them and go to kits. I want to see a curtailment of the manufacturers forcing RTR products on us at rediculous prices when the same item could be sold for half the price in kit form. It takes very little ability to assemble a kit. Those who suggest it is too hard or time consuming to build the average kit are in the wrong hobby to begin with as model railroading is and always has been based on individual skills and creativity. I'm not flaming here, only expressiving an opinion based of careful observation of the hobby over many years ;-) CNJ831
QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by IRONROOSTER My experience has been that most RTR are not 3x more expensive than comparable kits usually it's about $5 more, which is a big percent when we're talking less than $10 for the kit, but not so big when we're talking $25 or more for the kit. Second I'm talking about the number of kits sold. If 1 million kits were sold in 1990; 800,000 in 2000; 600,000 in 2010 (note: I don't know what the actual numbers are - I'm illustrating a point) while RTR is 200,000 in 1990; 400,000 in 2000; and 600,000 in 2010, then obviously a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of this hobby (Note I said if, but this does seem to be what everyone thinks is happening). Third most manufacturers make what sells. You seem to be arguing against yourself here saying that more RTR is made because that's what people buy, but that has nothing to do with the number of kits made. I think what matters is what people buy not what's available. Fourth, you seem to be saying that folks who like RTR should give that up in favor of kits, because otherwise the manufacturers will stop making kits, because they don't sell enough, and this is needed because without kits people will leave the hobby. Well a lot of the kits are pretty expensive, so you must be thinking of Athearn here. Frankly if the interest in low cost kits is so small that no one makes them anymore, then that means that the number of people who leave the hobby will be very small. I don't think the low cost kit market is that small. but we'll see. I do agree that it would be sad for someone to not enjoy this hobby because they can no longer afford it. So where are we? Well the amount of RTR seems to be going up while the amount of kits seems to be going down (at least that is the majority opinion in this thread.). Sounds to me like a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of the hobby or at least reduce it. This means that kit building was tolerated as part of the price for having a model railroad for a lot of people. Enjoy Paul
QUOTE: Originally posted by cyb0rg hob·by n. An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure. There are hobbyists who have a love for trains, but can't afford or don't have the space for something they want. There are those who want nothing more than a detailed layout, but simply don't have the skills or tools needed to do it. Does that somehow make the RTR crowd lesser enthusiasts? Certainly not.
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER One thing I've noticed in this thread, is a fair number of folks are glad to have RTR, because they no longer have to build everything from a kit. If the number of kits declines than it means they were not really that popular, just tolerated as the price of having a layout. This is faulty thinking because the offering of kits is not based necessarily on how popular they may or may not be overall. If a manufacturer can sell a thousand RTR, limited production, items at 3x the price of a similar kit in less than a month, or twice as many kits over a much longer interval but with considerably more overhead costs for them, just which way do you think they will go with future production? Until recently, our hobby has _always_ been based on longterm availability of a given item in kit form at lower prices...which was a disadvantage for the manufacturers. Now the shoe seems to be on the other foot and it will likely matter much less what sort of availability the hobbyist wants for a product. It is a plan that, if taken to the extreme, means in the short term bigger profits over shorter time spans for the manufacturers but at the same time will shrink the hobby by forcing out many of its longtime participants because of costs. I call this a lose/lose situation, not an advantage. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER One thing I've noticed in this thread, is a fair number of folks are glad to have RTR, because they no longer have to build everything from a kit. If the number of kits declines than it means they were not really that popular, just tolerated as the price of having a layout.
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxns Building industries i rather have them in a kit because something can be done diffrent if it is not right and you can add to it just like the real thing does.
Russell
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 ... Now the shoe seems to be on the other foot and it will likely matter much less what sort of availability the hobbyist wants for a product. It is a plan that, if taken to the extreme, means in the short term bigger profits over shorter time spans for the manufacturers but at the same time will shrink the hobby by forcing out many of its longtime participants because of costs. I call this a lose/lose situation, not an advantage.