The difference between myself and a lot of modelers.

[Anonymous]

Muddycreek, I GIVE UP!! You have missconstrude what I have said and are attempting to turn me into a bad guy because I chose a topic you disagree with. I am tired of attempting to bring up what I think are interesting and thought provoking topics on this forum, only to have some curmudgeon attempt to make an *** out of me. I am starting to think there is a contingent on here who only want to get into fights and this is making this forum pretty boring!

[Anonymous]

I'm not interested in fighting with you or anyone else. I just disagree with the assumption that one person's idea of model railroading is ruining anyone else's future enjoyment of the hobby. I was just looking for tangible evidence why my purchasing a RTR boxcar signals the end of model railroading as we know it. I just haven't seen it and no one here's demonstrated it yet.

I see a peaceful co-existance as the future. Manufacturers will be happy to accomodate all.

Wayne (the curmudgeon?)

[MisterBeasley]

Does anybody cook? I enjoy it, and I enjoy it more when I have the time to do it right. I do main courses and vegetables, but I don't do baked goods and I never make desserts. Yes, there's a lot of pride in putting it on the table, too. But I also love to eat at a good restaurant.

I'm just pulling my old trains out of a 30-year slumber in the attic. I'm looking forward to all the new challenges - DCC, real scenery, knuckle couplers and a whole lot of restoration. I probably won't scratch-build anything, at least not for a while, but I'm game for anything else. I'm sure I'll find things I like doing, and things I don't care for. But overall, I'm planning to enjoy it. And it wouldn't surprise me if the sun comes up some morning and finds me still working in my shop.

[cwaldman]

I suppose that the longer I am in the hobby, the more I have distinctions as to what i am attracted to. I am a big fan of John Allen and have read the book about the G&D many many times. i think a key statement is at the end where it says he struck a happy medium between detailing and illusion. Something along that line.

I sort of took that to heart. If a person were to apply equal time to every area, you probably never would get done with a normal size layout. Of course this is alright. A layout is never done is it? However, I doubt there is anyone who doesn't want to see decent progress.

To that extent, I am not about to sit there and weigh every car to ensure they are all the same weight. I am not going to spend an hour painting a figure to be placed in an area it is not going to be appreciated. I don't detail the back of building that will never be seen. Even if I buy a craftsman kit that takes 6 weeks to put together, I am not spending time on areas not seen.

I am fine buying pre-painted figures, ready to run cars, Engines and so on. I do not buy pre-made buildings, I love doing fine detailing on the scenery. I think everyone finds a compromise in the hobby.

http://homepage.mac.com/cgwaldman/PhotoAlbum1.html

Cletus

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by philnrunt

ericsp- other than collecting Hot Wheel cars, I don't know of too many hobbies that 25$ would go very far in. I'm afraid the days of the cheap hobby are limited. I still find BB kits for 5-7$, but these used to go for 3-4$.

The $25 gift certificate could have gone further if kits are bought instead of RTR. Let us examine what could be bought with that gift certificate, using MSRP.
Locomotives are any kind of out.
2 or 3 Athearn Blue Box, Accurail, MDC, Branchline Trains, Bowser, C&BT Shops, CM SHops, Intermountain, Grandt Line, Stewart Hobbies (most singles), or (if you can find two) Walthers kits, or Con-Cor
1 Branchline Trains kit, Athearn RTR, 1 MDC RTR, 1 Walthers RTR (some more expensive than $25), Atlas (only about half are less than $25), Red Caboose or Funaro & Camerlengo kit
Athearn Genesis, most Atlas, Intermountain, Kadee, and Trix are all out.

My point was that there are probably people who if they walk into a hobby shop and see manu kits (and associated prices) are more likely to become model railroaders than if the hobby shop has mainly RTR (and the associated prices).

Also, I checked the model aircraft section. The prices of most of the kits I saw were more in line with train kit prices.

[Anonymous]

I think the key is finding a balance. What do you enjoy spending time on? What would you rather not spend time on? We are at an interesting juncture in the hobby. RTR locomotives and cars are not what the RTR of the past were. When I first got in the hobby HO RTR seemed to be Brass (way to expensive even then) or lesser quality stuff (the old Life Like, Model Power etc). If you wanted decent running relatively inexpensive stuff you went with Athearn the RDC/Roundhouse kits. RTR was the equivalent of "junk." Today that is not the case, although I think perceptions sometimes are what governs (how long did it take for people to realize stuff made in Japan wasn't junk?).

We have accepted RTR track (snap track, manufactured turnouts and flextrack when compared to handlaying is RTR) and controls (remember the numerous articles that used to be in the mags concerning building your own transistor throtte?). We've also accepted RTR DCC and other electronics (remember Wescotts Twin T detectors?

Yes, I enjoy building kits and would prefer that everything be kits. I'm sure that there are people that would prefer everything be RTR. Neither view is, I think, entirely realistic. As much as I enjoy building benchwork (I really do) I realize that there are people that hate it. I am actually glad that there are manufacturers of benchwork "kits" and that foam has made a big showing. I also actually enjoy wiring and making electronic things (like some of the transistor throttles) but am glad that lots of this stuff can now be bought off the shelf. How many people would not be as into this hobby if these things weren't available?

It would be interesting to see in a couple of years how many folks that entered this hobby by purchasing RTR equipment decided to weather and repaint their RTR. Then do some RTR bashing and then decided to try kits? Would be interesting!

Bottom line - the more folks that get into this hobby, the more products that will be available - at least that's my hope!

[Anonymous]

Muddycreek,
It's interesting, some here say that RTR is the future. Even you proclaim it will attract new people and new people are the life of the future of the hobby. Manufacturers make decisions based on the market. RTR is better for the manufacturer as he is adding value to his product. The market being attracted to a product with value added is a very good thing from the manufacturer's point of view. As simple as this explanation is, it explains one of the reasons kits are loosing ground to RTR.

Now, let me explain my position. I try not to take on a position that is not defensible and I enjoy discussions, if they can keep from flipping into personal attacks. You have bent things I have said and I don't appreciate this.

To back my position, I have older Walther's catalogs? I have talked to hobby shop owners. I look at what is offered at the various MRR websites and offered in the pages of the various model railroading publications. From these references, I feel my position is warranted, substantiated and is what I have based my argument on. It is not simply my opinions on possible phase-outs, based on anecdotal evidence, with dubious arguments, or with a lack of concrete evidence! Also backing my position are the majority of respondents to this post.

In the end, this is a small point in a large continuum and is inconsequential. The market will drive what happens within the hobby and us dinosaurs which still like to glue tab A into slot B, will be gone. However, we shall be taking our wisdom with us!

[Anonymous]

The whole point of a hobby is for enjoyment. It doesn"t make any diffenrence what you like. Do it however it gives you pleasure. You're doing it to enjoy yourself. If you don't enjoy whatever facet of any hobby yours is, don't do it. The hell with what anyone else thinks. Just do whatever "YOU" enjoy.

[eastcoast]

[2c]
I am one who likes the entire hobby and tries everything at least
once. I really like to kitba***hings, it is what makes my world a
unique place. My layout is not like ANY other. And I plan on having
trains on my gravestone. I take my time and find new things to do
when it is cold or just too late at night when I want to spend time
with my wife. To all, be kind. JUST DO YOUR OWN THING !!!
[2c]

[Leon Silverman]

I think the solution tothe contraversy here is to look at two popular Icons. Baskin Robbins philosphy is "If everyone had the same tastes, we'd all like vanilla." The industry has to cater to both the builder and rtr people. While some manufacturers are concentrating on rtr, others are expanding on kits. If you do not want to but the MDC or Athearn RTR, you still have Bowser and Branchline, who are continually adding to their line.
The other Icon is Ian Flemings James Bond. This character is fictional only because he is an expert at so many different skills, each of which would require daily full day practice to achieve that skill level. This is a hobby for most of us, meaning it is pursued only in our spare time. This also means that most of us have or develop skills in only limited phases of the hobby. The hobby has to accomodate these different skills and interests if it is to thrive. The person who likes to build structures and buy rtr trains should not belittle the train kit builder who uses prebuilt structures. If you guys get together, you could probably help each other.
John Allen was unique in his ability to build a beautiful layout all by himself. Most of the larger, more elaborate layouts you see in the pages of these magazines are built by a family or group of friends. The indivduals in these groups usually concentrate on certain tasks rather than having everybody doing everything and getting in each other's way.

[Catt]

My thoughts are if you don't like RTR don't buy it.If you can't find a kit for the building/car/ whatever then scratchbuild the damn thing if you don't want RTR.

Not everybody wants to spend hours building a kit when they could be laying track or wireing it up to run trains or just simply run trains.

Human's are a weird bunch of critters you know,we are all different in the way we do things or want things done.The last thing I would ever do,no make that the one thing I would never do is look down on someone for the way they enjoy this hobby,nor would I ever presume to tell them that my way is the only way.

[IRONROOSTER]

One thing I've noticed in this thread, is a fair number of folks are glad to have RTR, because they no longer have to build everything from a kit. If the number of kits declines than it means they were not really that popular, just tolerated as the price of having a layout.

While I will always build kits and scratch build, I suspect that RTR is a large part of my future. This will enable me to have a bigger more complete layout, which I think is a good thing. I'm already planning a 500 sq ft layout to replace my current 200 sq ft layout. This for me is only possible because of RTR - cars, locos, track, controls, etc.
Enjoy
Paul

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

One thing I've noticed in this thread, is a fair number of folks are glad to have RTR, because they no longer have to build everything from a kit. If the number of kits declines than it means they were not really that popular, just tolerated as the price of having a layout.

This is faulty thinking because the offering of kits is not based necessarily on how popular they may or may not be overall. If a manufacturer can sell a thousand RTR, limited production, items at 3x the price of a similar kit in less than a month, or twice as many kits over a much longer interval but with considerably more overhead costs for them, just which way do you think they will go with future production? Until recently, our hobby has _always_ been based on longterm availability of a given item in kit form at lower prices...which was a disadvantage for the manufacturers. Now the shoe seems to be on the other foot and it will likely matter much less what sort of availability the hobbyist wants for a product. It is a plan that, if taken to the extreme, means in the short term bigger profits over shorter time spans for the manufacturers but at the same time will shrink the hobby by forcing out many of its longtime participants because of costs. I call this a lose/lose situation, not an advantage.

CNJ831

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
... Now the shoe seems to be on the other foot and it will likely matter much less what sort of availability the hobbyist wants for a product. It is a plan that, if taken to the extreme, means in the short term bigger profits over shorter time spans for the manufacturers but at the same time will shrink the hobby by forcing out many of its longtime participants because of costs. I call this a lose/lose situation, not an advantage.

semi-OT:
And this is different from anything else in the modern business world, how? [V][8][}:)]

I could rant on and on about this topic, which seems to be more and more prevalent in business these days. I even have to argue hard once in a while with my wife about retirement investment strategy- think LONG-TERM for overall economic health.

back on-Topic:
Actually, the only "RTR" rolling stock I have is good 'ol Tyco and Bachman "toy train"-quality stuff. Some is left over from my teenage-layout, while others have been acquired on eBay more recently as a compromise between having enough variety for the layout, and having something cheap-enough to be handled by my 3-year-old co-engineer. [:)] I'm adding better trucks, Kadee couplers, and weighting them, which gives me some modelling fun for myself as well (q.v. below).

For the long-term, I'm tending towards a) shake-the-box quality, like Athearn or MDC, combined with b) judicious application of additional details. This is partly because of very limited time available for any hobby/relaxation activities- I can feel a sense of accomplishment in the two or three hours I might get per week to do model railroading activities, as opposed to craftsman-level kits that might take me a couple of weeks to finish a single car/structure. In addition, despite the appearance of my purchases in the past month, I'm not made out of money, and they are an economical way to get good variety. [;)]

While I haven't bought any high-detail/high-quality RTR rolling stock, I can see the possiblity, depending on availability of appropriate kits. For example, I've got some Athearn well-cars, and was considering getting some spine cars to be able to have more of a mixed intermodal train. However, I thought I saw something recently about Athearn retiring their Impact Car kits, and I haven't seen many of them available at the two LHS. If this is the case, I might end up having to go with RTR.

My 2c-worth.

Brian Pickering

[csxns]

Building industries i rather have them in a kit because something can be done diffrent if it is not right and you can add to it just like the real thing does.

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxns

Building industries i rather have them in a kit because something can be done diffrent if it is not right and you can add to it just like the real thing does.

Oh, durn tootin'!

Besides, just how many "Built-Up" structures are going to be exactly right for whatever location you need them in? My guess would be somewhere around

N = diddly / squat + (# of sentient creatures in congress/parliament/etc.) [:D]

However, until my son is considerably older, and perhaps even until he's in/past college (depending on how the afore-mentioned long-term investments go...), I suspect that I'll be building/'bashing relatively inexpensive models, rather than expensive craftsman models.

The current layout, given its dual purpose of entertaining myself and a three-year-old, will likely have mostly Model Power and other similar inexpensive structures. Over the years, those that don't get bashed by the three-year-old might get 'bashed into more-detailed structures, even if it is as simple as giving them a better paint job.

I've actually got some Cornerstone buildings (on sale) for my "dream" layout, partly because I'm hoping that the engine maintenance area is going to lend itself to modeling on its own now, followed by building the rest once Charles gets old-enough to use a hammer and drill without constant supervision. I figure that I can do some learning of better weathering/detailing techniques in the near future, I can use them to help validate the design as I build the maintenance facilities in the mid-term, and if someday I decide that they just aren't nice-enough, I won't feel too bad about replacing them with craftsman kits.

As noted previously, whatever satisfies you as a model railroader is sufficient.

Brian

[aloco]

As far as locomotives are concerned, I run the units I've painted and detailed on my home layout and factory painted stuff on the model railroad club layout. I also run off the power power pack on the home layout and DCC equipped locos on the club layout.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

One thing I've noticed in this thread, is a fair number of folks are glad to have RTR, because they no longer have to build everything from a kit. If the number of kits declines than it means they were not really that popular, just tolerated as the price of having a layout.

This is faulty thinking because the offering of kits is not based necessarily on how popular they may or may not be overall. If a manufacturer can sell a thousand RTR, limited production, items at 3x the price of a similar kit in less than a month, or twice as many kits over a much longer interval but with considerably more overhead costs for them, just which way do you think they will go with future production? Until recently, our hobby has _always_ been based on longterm availability of a given item in kit form at lower prices...which was a disadvantage for the manufacturers. Now the shoe seems to be on the other foot and it will likely matter much less what sort of availability the hobbyist wants for a product. It is a plan that, if taken to the extreme, means in the short term bigger profits over shorter time spans for the manufacturers but at the same time will shrink the hobby by forcing out many of its longtime participants because of costs. I call this a lose/lose situation, not an advantage.

CNJ831

My experience has been that most RTR are not 3x more expensive than comparable kits usually it's about $5 more, which is a big percent when we're talking less than $10 for the kit, but not so big when we're talking $25 or more for the kit.

Second I'm talking about the number of kits sold. If 1 million kits were sold in 1990; 800,000 in 2000; 600,000 in 2010 (note: I don't know what the actual numbers are - I'm illustrating a point) while RTR is 200,000 in 1990; 400,000 in 2000; and 600,000 in 2010, then obviously a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of this hobby (Note I said if, but this does seem to be what everyone thinks is happening).

Third most manufacturers make what sells. You seem to be arguing against yourself here saying that more RTR is made because that's what people buy, but that has nothing to do with the number of kits made. I think what matters is what people buy not what's available.

Fourth, you seem to be saying that folks who like RTR should give that up in favor of kits, because otherwise the manufacturers will stop making kits, because they don't sell enough, and this is needed because without kits people will leave the hobby. Well a lot of the kits are pretty expensive, so you must be thinking of Athearn here. Frankly if the interest in low cost kits is so small that no one makes them anymore, then that means that the number of people who leave the hobby will be very small. I don't think the low cost kit market is that small. but we'll see. I do agree that it would be sad for someone to not enjoy this hobby because they can no longer afford it.

So where are we? Well the amount of RTR seems to be going up while the amount of kits seems to be going down (at least that is the majority opinion in this thread.). Sounds to me like a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of the hobby or at least reduce it. This means that kit building was tolerated as part of the price for having a model railroad for a lot of people.
Enjoy
Paul

[jabrown1971]

Let me, if I may! I prefer RTR, only because my patience level is low and my mess up ratio high. I also don't have good hand-eye coordination and own very few tools. I don't want to spend 30-75 dollars for a kit only to make a mistake and ruin the whole thing. That is only a fear and has never happened, but I also don't want it to happen. I also have 3 kids who enjoy the trains with me, but they only want to see them run, not help build a building. Some issues might be resolved by switching to a bigger scale, but right now all I have space for is N. Just my view.

[Anonymous]

hob·by n. An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

That says it all in my book. There's no right or wrong way to approach a hobby, and there certainly isn't a better or "preferred" method. That's what makes it what it is. Everyone shares a common interest...trains. Else this would be the model boating or radio controlled cars forums. Whether you spent $500 or $5000, it makes no diffence.

There are hobbyists who have a love for trains, but can't afford or don't have the space for something they want. There are those who want nothing more than a detailed layout, but simply don't have the skills or tools needed to do it. Does that somehow make the RTR crowd lesser enthusiasts? Certainly not.

[CP5415]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cyb0rg

hob·by n. An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

There are hobbyists who have a love for trains, but can't afford or don't have the space for something they want. There are those who want nothing more than a detailed layout, but simply don't have the skills or tools needed to do it. Does that somehow make the RTR crowd lesser enthusiasts? Certainly not.

[#ditto]

I have & use both kits & RTR on my layout.
Nothing wrong with that, ITs how I want to pursue my hobby.

Gordon

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

My experience has been that most RTR are not 3x more expensive than comparable kits usually it's about $5 more, which is a big percent when we're talking less than $10 for the kit, but not so big when we're talking $25 or more for the kit.

Second I'm talking about the number of kits sold. If 1 million kits were sold in 1990; 800,000 in 2000; 600,000 in 2010 (note: I don't know what the actual numbers are - I'm illustrating a point) while RTR is 200,000 in 1990; 400,000 in 2000; and 600,000 in 2010, then obviously a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of this hobby (Note I said if, but this does seem to be what everyone thinks is happening).

Third most manufacturers make what sells. You seem to be arguing against yourself here saying that more RTR is made because that's what people buy, but that has nothing to do with the number of kits made. I think what matters is what people buy not what's available.

Fourth, you seem to be saying that folks who like RTR should give that up in favor of kits, because otherwise the manufacturers will stop making kits, because they don't sell enough, and this is needed because without kits people will leave the hobby. Well a lot of the kits are pretty expensive, so you must be thinking of Athearn here. Frankly if the interest in low cost kits is so small that no one makes them anymore, then that means that the number of people who leave the hobby will be very small. I don't think the low cost kit market is that small. but we'll see. I do agree that it would be sad for someone to not enjoy this hobby because they can no longer afford it.

So where are we? Well the amount of RTR seems to be going up while the amount of kits seems to be going down (at least that is the majority opinion in this thread.). Sounds to me like a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of the hobby or at least reduce it. This means that kit building was tolerated as part of the price for having a model railroad for a lot of people.
Enjoy
Paul

With regard to your first point I can only say that where I live if an item is available in both kit and RTR, the price at least doubles for the latter. Most of the more expensive items aren't even offered as kits, they're only RTR.

As you even admit, the "sales" figures you use to illustrate your point are pure speculation and not based on anything factual. As such they can not possibly demonstrate anything in the actual state of the hobby. While more and more items are being offered RTR it does not necessarily mean that demand is rapidly growing...simply that this is the manufacturers' new business plan, common to just about all of today's manufacturing areas (get rid of your product as quickly as possible and cut overhead to nil). I have seen nothing anywhere to suggest that RTR is of great popularity across the board. A handful of posts on this board reflects absolutely nothing as to the desires of the hobby as a whole...it's simply not statistically significant. Now if MR ran a poll of its entire readship, that would have meaning, but we have nothing of the sort to refer to.

Yes, manufacturers make what will sell. But today it is done on such a limited run basis it is possible (after a little market research) to sell 100% of _any_ item immediately. It is not a matter of popularity, it's one of buy it right now or never see it again. And as the manufacturers progressively turn to higher priced RTR-only you will most certainly see over time not a small fraction of modelers withdrawn from the hobby because of spiraling prices but rather a majority. Our hobby is totally dominated by guys over 50. Take away what they enjoyed at reasonable prices for years in the hobby and the hobby itself will vannish.

No, I don't want folks that would rather have RTR to give up on them and go to kits. I want to see a curtailment of the manufacturers forcing RTR products on us at rediculous prices when the same item could be sold for half the price in kit form. It takes very little ability to assemble a kit. Those who suggest it is too hard or time consuming to build the average kit are in the wrong hobby to begin with as model railroading is and always has been based on individual skills and creativity.

I'm not flaming here, only expressiving an opinion based of careful observation of the hobby over many years ;-)

CNJ831

[Ibflattop]

I would rather build than buy RTR stuff. Some of the stuff looks ok but I get more out of it if I had my hands build it!!!! Kevin

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by CNJ831


With regard to your first point I can only say that where I live if an item is available in both kit and RTR, the price at least doubles for the latter. Most of the more expensive items aren't even offered as kits, they're only RTR.

As you even admit, the "sales" figures you use to illustrate your point are pure speculation and not based on anything factual. As such they can not possibly demonstrate anything in the actual state of the hobby. While more and more items are being offered RTR it does not necessarily mean that demand is rapidly growing...simply that this is the manufacturers' new business plan, common to just about all of today's manufacturing areas (get rid of your product as quickly as possible and cut overhead to nil). I have seen nothing anywhere to suggest that RTR is of great popularity across the board. A handful of posts on this board reflects absolutely nothing as to the desires of the hobby as a whole...it's simply not statistically significant. Now if MR ran a poll of its entire readship, that would have meaning, but we have nothing of the sort to refer to.

Yes, manufacturers make what will sell. But today it is done on such a limited run basis it is possible (after a little market research) to sell 100% of _any_ item immediately. It is not a matter of popularity, it's one of buy it right now or never see it again. And as the manufacturers progressively turn to higher priced RTR-only you will most certainly see over time not a small fraction of modelers withdrawn from the hobby because of spiraling prices but rather a majority. Our hobby is totally dominated by guys over 50. Take away what they enjoyed at reasonable prices for years in the hobby and the hobby itself will vannish.

No, I don't want folks that would rather have RTR to give up on them and go to kits. I want to see a curtailment of the manufacturers forcing RTR products on us at rediculous prices when the same item could be sold for half the price in kit form. It takes very little ability to assemble a kit. Those who suggest it is too hard or time consuming to build the average kit are in the wrong hobby to begin with as model railroading is and always has been based on individual skills and creativity.

I'm not flaming here, only expressiving an opinion based of careful observation of the hobby over many years ;-)

CNJ831

The figures were merely to help explain my point that if people are shifting from RTR to kits then they don't want to build everything from a kit. The opinion (and the complaint) of most people in this thread is that fewer kits are being made and more RTR is being made. My point is maybe a lot of people who used to buy and build kits would rather have RTR for part or all of what they do.

I disagree that the manufacturers are forcing RTR on me or anyone. I admit my eyesight isn't what it used to be, but I don't recall anyone holding a gun to my head to force me to buy RTR. Further more I don't think there is massive conspiracy among manufacturers to overcharge us on RTR while eliminating the kits we "really" want. Well detailed RTR is being made for what some of the better kits cost - Kadee RTR 40' boxcar 27.95-31.95, Funaro & Camerlengo 40' boxcar kit 29.99, LaBelle 40' boxcar kit $19.75. Cost of Kadee trucks and couplers not included in kits $7.23. The truth is that, with the low cost of labor in China (and elsewhere), RTR is about the same as kits for rolling stock (I don't know how many RTR structures are done there now, but it'll go up if demand warrants).

I love the touch you threw in about about being creative and having individual skills [i.e. being a "real" model railroader} only if you build plastic kits. When I first got into this hobby 33 years ago, people who built plastic kits were looked down on as not being "real" model railroaders - wood and metal cratfsman kits were tolerated as a training course to become a "real" model railroader. IMHO a model railroader is any one who enjoys building and/or running and/or collecting railroad models - scale, tinplate, and hirail all included.

I agree that in the past building was an important part of this hobby, but that's because most people did not have another option if they wanted a layout other than Lionel, poorly operating toy store train sets, or expensive brass. Now that we have more options a lot of people are saying I want an operating layout. and RTR are the building blocks of a layout. Most of us, I would guess (99+%) use some (a lot of) RTR if we're building a layout - flex track, turnouts, sectional track, locomotives, cars, buildings, bridges, tunnel portals, power supply, trees, and so forth.

The creativity of a layout is blending all of these things into something pleasing to us either because it reminds us a place we liked (that may no longer exist), a place we would like to exist, a beauty in and of itself, because it operates like a real railroad, the trains are neat to run, or some other reason that appeals to us. It's a plus if it does more than one of these and a bonus if it does it for someone else.

But even if you go to a train show, spot a custom built layout, buy it; and take it home; when you run it for yourself or your friends you are a model railroader.

As always, Enjoy. This hobby isn't worth it if it isn't fun.
Paul

(p.s. no flame taken)[:)][:)] (I have strong opinions too)[2c][soapbox]

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

I disagree that the manufacturers are forcing RTR on me or anyone. I admit my eyesight isn't what it used to be, but I don't recall anyone holding a gun to my head to force me to buy RTR. Further more I don't think there is massive conspiracy among manufacturers to overcharge us on RTR while eliminating the kits we "really" want. The truth is that, with the low cost of labor in China (and elsewhere), RTR is about the same as kits for rolling stock (I don't know how many RTR structures are done there now, but it'll go up if demand warrants).

I love the touch you threw in about about being creative and having individual skills [i.e. being a "real" model railroader} only if you build plastic kits. When I first got into this hobby 33 years ago, people who built plastic kits were looked down on as not being "real" model railroaders - wood and metal cratfsman kits were tolerated as a training course to become a "real" model railroader. IMHO a model railroader is any one who enjoys building and/or running and/or collecting railroad models - scale, tinplate, and hirail all included.

Paul

It is worth noting that I do not regard the current situation in the hobby, where RTR is slowly forcing out kit availability, as part of a manufacturers' "conspiracy". It is real and, unfortunately, what we see happening as a standard business model or practice today in many areas far removed from our hobby: to sell the product at the greatest profit margin with the least number of units while curtailing every possible overhead cost (in our case much of which comes from maintaining and handling/shipping a stock of unsold items/kits). Even the simplest business math will demonstrate that there is far, far more profit to be gained for a given company in selling an expensive RTR item over a kit offered at half the list price or less.

And, no, quite honestly I do not consider a person who has invested absolutely no personal time, skills or craftsmanship in their commercially built layout, running all RTR equipment, to be a model railroader. To me such folks would be in the same class as the 7 year old kid whose father presented him with a completed Lionel layout at Christmas...they are both just playing with trains. In my book real model railroaders "create" a layout themselves regardless of it being scale or tin-plate. All the rest are just, at best, model railroading "enthusiasts".

CNJ831

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

I disagree that the manufacturers are forcing RTR on me or anyone. I admit my eyesight isn't what it used to be, but I don't recall anyone holding a gun to my head to force me to buy RTR. Further more I don't think there is massive conspiracy among manufacturers to overcharge us on RTR while eliminating the kits we "really" want. The truth is that, with the low cost of labor in China (and elsewhere), RTR is about the same as kits for rolling stock (I don't know how many RTR structures are done there now, but it'll go up if demand warrants).

I love the touch you threw in about about being creative and having individual skills [i.e. being a "real" model railroader} only if you build plastic kits. When I first got into this hobby 33 years ago, people who built plastic kits were looked down on as not being "real" model railroaders - wood and metal cratfsman kits were tolerated as a training course to become a "real" model railroader. IMHO a model railroader is any one who enjoys building and/or running and/or collecting railroad models - scale, tinplate, and hirail all included.

Paul

It is worth noting that I do not regard the current situation in the hobby, where RTR is slowly forcing out kit availability, as part of a manufacturers' "conspiracy". It is real and, unfortunately, what we see happening as a standard business model or practice today in many areas far removed from our hobby: to sell the product at the greatest profit margin with the least number of units while curtailing every possible overhead cost (in our case much of which comes from maintaining and handling/shipping a stock of unsold items/kits). Even the simplest business math will demonstrate that there is far, far more profit to be gained for a given company in selling an expensive RTR item over a kit offered at half the list price or less.

And, no, quite honestly I do not consider a person who has invested absolutely no personal time, skills or craftsmanship in their commercially built layout, running all RTR equipment, to be a model railroader. To me such folks would be in the same class as the 7 year old kid whose father presented him with a completed Lionel layout at Christmas...they are both just playing with trains. In my book real model railroaders "create" a layout themselves regardless of it being scale or tin-plate. All the rest are just, at best, model railroading "enthusiasts".

CNJ831

Looks like we're just going to disagree[:D][:D]. In any event I think we have beaten this to death.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

I think it fair to say that there are model railroaders and miniature railroaders (for lack of a better name). If you didn't take the pieces from the box and assemble them to make a completed unit, how can you consider this to be modeling?

What I am having the hardest time understanding is what would attract people to this hobby, if they didn't come from and enjoy a modeling back ground. I have modeled practically all of my life. It's building the models that interests me! Even if I got much more into operations, I would still love the modeling! Some of you seem to hate modeling and I just don't get it! However, I am beginning to understand I am a dinosaur! I also understand this hobby's direction will be determined by the market and there ain't much I can do about it!

[Anonymous]

A lot of people are attracted to the creation and operation of a model railroad. These folks are able to be railroad modelers without the need to be a boxcar modeler or a locomotive modeler. They see no need to create from scratch each element of their railroad, cars, locos, etc any more than a kit-builder sees the need to cast every wheel and truck, brake wheel etc. In both cases, the total equal the sums of their parts.

Sorry, I stil don't agreee that only one faction owns the title of Model Railroader.

Wayne

[camarokid]

This is getting old. I have 2 sets of Campbell steam service boxes still in the box (20 years). I'm still trying to paint and assemble my Heljan roundhouse(18 years). I have numerous craftsman car kits bought on sale more than 20 years ago that I simply don't have the expertise to assemble (yet). Most of my cars are Athearn that I only screwed the trucks on. If I looked longer I could probably find stuff I've had longer but put away for future use and forgot about. Does screwing on Athearn trucks make me a kit modeler? I don't think so. When I put those Campbell kits together and finish my roundhouse and the Suydam roundhouse I soldered up over 15 years ago and put the roof on, then maybe I can say "MODEL RAILROADER AT LAST". Do the ready to run people have an influence on the future of our hobby? Only if we modelers who enjoy and will enjoy (in the future) putting together kits and keep on buying them. If we don't buy kits, the manufacturing companies will cease to make them. Then we'll all have the same models and we will all have to learn how to kit-bash, won't we. Perhaps I've missed some point that DeSchane is trying to arrive at even after reading all the posts. RTR will not be the bane of this wonderful hobby. It might even get some of them to want to be more of a modeler. Enough of my ranting. It's a new year and we all need to have fun in any endeavor we pursue.
Archie

[Anonymous]

I thought I had made my point crystal clear! My point is; I feel there is a change in the hobby, the change is more people are preferring RTR over kits! MY OPINION of this change is that it's not good!

I started this thread and think all of my posts have been written in a fair and forthright manner. The idea has been to spark interesting conversation. We all have, and are entitled to our own opinions. Something I see here, which I think a few need to work on (including myself) is when an opposing view is expressed we become overly aggressive and defensive in our responses. This is easier to do here on the internet, because most do not use their real names and for the most part we are incognito!

In the end, this is only a hobby! To think that we deserves accolades and special dispensation because of our vast knowledge about a hobby seems miss-guided and to be making ourselves out to something beyond what we are, to me. Again, this is only my opinion!