Hi All...
I recently bought an Alco Models brass Alco RS-2. I didn't pay a lot, didn't expect perfection and, well... I got it. :-)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81065424@N00/30872250618/in/dateposted-public/
Okay, it's tarnished and dirty and I can live with that. It's undecorated so that will making a CI&L out of it a bit easier.
The big things now:
Its always run very slow, barely able to pull 5 cars. This morning I took off the shell and found: The Sagami motor appears to be secured with something like florist's putty and is turned at a slight angle to the frame. Then the "happy" part... both u-joint/driveshafts are slipping. The rear at the motor and the front at the middle of the joint.
Some speculation... I suspect the motor may be an odd replacement that someone kludged in. Next, I suspect there are no genuine replacement parts in the known universe! :-(
So... I'm not hesitant about tearing the beastie down to fix it, she needs a GOOD cleaning. The motor seems to be running okay, but the whole putty thing has me annoyed. I tend to prefer hardware attachment to glue.
I'm not opposed to keeping this motor, but would like to replace it. Barring replacement, are there generic driveshafts that might work?
Any places that sell parts I could make work?
Thanks for any wisdom!
Amanda
Amanda to the forum.
Here is your loco
I have not remotored anything. Brasstrains.com has a bunch of videos, in which they frequently have a repair or painting video. I think their painting guy soda blasts the locos.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Mel's suggestion of NWSL drive line parts is spot-on.
I have an Overland electric that I got a deal on since it was "not running".
When I opened it up I saw right away that the "horned balls" were split.
IMG_5946_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Northwest Shortline had the correct parts available. I bought new shafting since the original shaft was not a standard size.
IMG_5937_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
I agree about the "glued-in" motor however, I have installed several using Scotch foam double-stick mounting pads, sometimes supplanted with RTV silicone. This stuff is strong and flexible and also reduces vibrations transfered to the frame.
It can be cut or pried off if you need to remove the motor for some reason later.
This link will take you to the NWSL catalog section with motors and drive-line parts.
https://tinyurl.com/ycp5mhrv
Use dial calipers to measure your shaft sizes. You can contact them and ask for help. There are a lot of Alco Models locomotives out there that have needed drive upgrades.
Scroll to page 16 here and there is a section on Alco Model repowering kits:
https://tinyurl.com/ydxsg6vd
I've had a few models with can motors that seemed to run fine but had absolutely no torque. Same with some open frame motors that were high current draw or only three pole and not very smooth.
This fellow has replacement motors at a reasonable cost:
https://www.ebay.com/str/Sweetwater-Locomotive-Repair?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
Good Luck, Ed
At first i wondered if maybe you got it fromt he same guy I got my RS3 from - but mine had a different round can motor fitted, with the long hood fitted with some cobbled together Athearn parts, and the short hood just a total mess that someone has applied CA to a part that should have been able to slide on the drive shaft, which caused the truck to barely swivel. I temporarily replaced that mess with some model airplane fuel line. Eventually I'll redo the whole thing and do it right.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Amanda Stop by Jeffery's Trackside Diner, where we discuss all sorts of off topic things. I see other women online, in the box to the right of this thread, but I don't recall any of them posting in a thread I was interested in.
That motor definitely needs to be straightened.
I did not know that Alco Models used to use a chain drive.
It looks like the drive has been "improved". I suspect originally it used rubber tubing to connect motor to gear tower.
The universal shafts look like old Athearn. If so, the holes are American size, maybe 3/32". The motor probably has a 2mm shaft. 3/32" is 2.38mm. Not exactly a press fit. Which might explain the glup "seeping" out. And the slippage.
You should surely replace the universal connections with something from NWSL. Your existing shafts are likely metric (checking with a micrometer is still good practice). As stated by others, NWSL has a quite complete selection of universal connectors.
The motor does look to be "glued" into it's cradle mount. The misalignment doesn't look to me to be that bad, but I'm not there looking at it. I see that only two screws out of four are holding the mount. I'd be tempted to add two more screws, if possible.
Looks like fun!
Ed
That is an odd drive for an Alco Models, of which I have reworked many for local modelers and for myself before going to O scale 2 rail trains. Chain drive is common in O scale, used in many brass and non brass locomotives very successfuly. Never seen it done in HO scale or is this a O scale engine? Mounting engines with RTV caulk is common when the modeler is unable to fabricate a bracket from sheet brass. Either works just fine. Yours needs to be removed and remounted straight, it probably shifted as the RTV cured. If the plastic parts that are slipping on the shafts are not split/cracked, some "knurling" can be added to the metal shafts with a pair of side cuts used to put some burrs on the shaft to help "lock" the plastic drive cups to the shafts. NWSL(Northwest Shortline) is an excellent source of drive line parts. I just redid an Alco Models Lima switcher for a member of a facebook group I belong to. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Hi Amanda!
Welcome to the forums!!
I'm interested in your project because I have a couple of Alco models of Alco switchers, and S-1 and an S-4. Mine appear to be original. They are unpainted. I got them for a fair price just to get some exposure to manufactured brass. The only other factory built brass I have is a small steamer that a friend gave me. I also have a couple of brass critters (one is shown in my avatar) that I built from scratch.
Like you say, the detail on the Alcos is a bit lacking. The paint will have to be pretty thin to avoid obscuring the stamped door lines etc.
The only thing I have done with them is test to see that they actually work, which they do, but I only ran them for a few inches because the grease has obviously hardened up.
They are not high up on my list of priorities but at least I can boast about owning some brass engines!!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Amanda has not responded since her post 11 days ago. Perhaps she has lost interest in model railroading. It happens. Usually not so quickly.
Best wishes in your new interests, Amanda!
Ed, that's just what we need to encourage new people to participate in the forums! Well done.
Or she travels for work or has other obligations. Airbrushing is the only way to paint HO scale or smaller brass. In O scale, the finer spray from proper modeling rattle cans(not the hardware store cans) does an ok job on older models. Most all early HO diesel drives in brass were coffee grinders till Samhongsa in Korea developed a truck that cut noise down to Athearn blue box level, followed by Ajin that got them really quieted down. The best running early HO brass diesels I had were Tenshodo SD9's with a can motor in them, with only a single tower of noisey gears they were a bit quieter, the other truck was driven by a shaft thru the middle of the fuel tank area. Those SD's were quite heavy and pulled really well. Mike the Aspie
The chassis in that RS-2 is definitely modified. The tower gears were replaced with Grandt Line chains and sprockets, and those will last forever, so I'd keep them if they're working smoothly. The Sagami motor is as good as anything else you'll find too, so I'd also keep that. Maybe just straighten it out if the angle is causing problems.
The universals in there appear to be from Athearn, or they're the Athearn clones from A Line. Replacing those with proper fitting universals from NWSL will be a big improvement. Beyond that, I think a good cleaning and some fresh oil and grease in the gears and bearings will get this thing running nice and smooth.
_________________________________________________________________
hon30critter Ed, that's just what we need to encourage new people to participate in the forums! Well done. Dave
I don't know that my comment will inspire her to begin to participate (participate: "to take part in or become involved in an activity"). Eleven days is quite awhile to not respond to people's supportive advice.
I do suppose it's possible, as Mike suggested, that she had to be off at work all this time. If so, it would have made sense to wait to ask the question until she got back and could give it proper attention.
Darth Santa Fe The chassis in that RS-2 is definitely modified. The tower gears were replaced with Grandt Line chains and sprockets, and those will last forever, so I'd keep them if they're working smoothly. The Sagami motor is as good as anything else you'll find too, so I'd also keep that. Maybe just straighten it out if the angle is causing problems. The universals in there appear to be from Athearn, or they're the Athearn clones from A Line. Replacing those with proper fitting universals from NWSL will be a big improvement. Beyond that, I think a good cleaning and some fresh oil and grease in the gears and bearings will get this thing running nice and smooth.
What about just replacing the trucks with "modern" items from Athearn, etc? I've got some of their RS's, and they run beautifully, even with whatever motor Athearn chose. Another source of Alco trucks would be the Atlas and P1K RS-11's. With Rapido coming out with much improved versions, these should be going for pretty cheap. I've just delivered to my local shop 4 of them to sell for whatever they can get.
I'm not having a lot of confidence in the guy who built this thing. And I wonder about the installation of the lower chain sprockets. Are THEY glued on?
Ah... no, haven't lost interest at all. Right now I have about 450 sections of track with 10 switches (and a wye), 5 crossings and a trestle set. I bypassed my current motive power problem with another (used) AHM RS-2 and a new Kato NW2.
I checked the NWSL site and found some hardware that should get the brass RS going. However, that has gone to the back burner, temporarily, with the acquisition of the NW2. (Thanks for the lead guys!!!)
My =small= layout is going to be confined to a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood. :-( I live in a 2br apartment and my roomie is "somewhat" opposed to train track all over the place. :-)
I was going to call my outfit the Monon after the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville, but I don't think a 4x8 spread could do the name justice. With the mish-mosh of road names on hand, I've decided on calling it the CM&MRR... Conglomerate, Merger and Monopoly Railroad!
Anyhow, I haven't abandoned the obsess... er, I mean hobby. :-)
Happy Weekending!
7j43k Amanda has not responded since her post 11 days ago. Perhaps she has lost interest in model railroading. It happens. Usually not so quickly. Best wishes in your new interests, Amanda! Ed
I've found a motor I "think" will work in the brass beastie. It's a Proto 2000 motor, with flywheels, from the NW/SW series switchers. The RS frame and motor bracket have cleaned up nicely.
I'm pretty sure some rejiggering will be needed, but I have power tools ;-) I'm not attempting a mint restoration here... just an RS-2 that will run around pulling cars.
I'm not on a lot, cuz' there's a lot going on at the moment. I'n the process of starting a new job, building a 200 ton crane kit (Athearn #1699) and recovering from the affects of some stubborn stomach bug (Blech!)
Hi Amanda,
Glad to see you back. Are you going to use DC or DCC to run your trains? If you are using DCC many people will suggest that you don't need flywheels if you have a decent decoder and a keep alive. The flywheels won't hurt anything but if space becomes an issue you can get by without one or both.
A long absence and more questions.
I've expressed my interest in the Alco RS-2. My fleet has grown somewhat. I now have 7 of the critters... 3 of the AHM variety, an Athearn RS-3 (Advertised as an RS-2, but what the heck?! :-) ) and 3 - Alco Models Brass units.
The first Brass unit had the infamous Sagami putty installation and slipping U-joints. The second was all original with a shorted KMT open frame motor (Grrr) and the third had a can motor installed. Haven't opened this one to see what was done but it seems to run well and I'm happy.
My question involves the KMT motor. Does anyone have one of these they might want to part with... yeah right! :-)
OR... is there someplace I can send the KMT to be rebuilt? Probably not cheap, but I can always ask.
Thanks for any advice!!!!!
Amanda Ward
Monon RailroaderMy question involves the KMT motor. Does anyone have one of these they might want to part with... yeah right! :-)
Does it look like this one? From an Alco Models NYC DES-3 (the motor sits in it sideways with a bracket)
NYC_DES-3_motor by Edmund, on Flickr
NYC_DES-3_moto2 by Edmund, on Flickr
NYC_DES-3_moto3 by Edmund, on Flickr
I can get better dimensions later tonight. If this looks like your guy I have a pair you can have.
Cheers, Ed
In my opinion unless you can confirm 'collector value' in having the KMT, I'd swap it out for a modern can motor.
Without seeing the specific KMT and installation, I can only refer you to places like eBay to find a compatible replacement if anyone here doesn't have one cheap. You will without a doubt want to replace the factory magnet in it with a modern NIB or similar high-strength magnet (and people here can advise how best to do that).
With your other interests and skills, it might be possible for you to rewind the motor if in fact it has been fried, and get a set of agate balance rails from eBay or set up a knife-edge arrangement to poise the armature afterward.
People here might weigh in on the current value of using a coreless motor as an option. I've been a lover of these in models since being introduced to them (by MR) in the very early 1970s.
Hi Ed! Looks very much like those. I'll post a picture of mine. Think I have one on my phone.
Overmod In my opinion unless you can confirm 'collector value' in having the KMT, I'd swap it out for a modern can motor. Without seeing the specific KMT and installation, I can only refer you to places like eBay to find a compatible replacement if anyone here doesn't have one cheap. You will without a doubt want to replace the factory magnet in it with a modern NIB or similar high-strength magnet (and people here can advise how best to do that). With your other interests and skills, it might be possible for you to rewind the motor if in fact it has been fried, and get a set of agate balance rails from eBay or set up a knife-edge arrangement to poise the armature afterward. People here might weigh in on the current value of using a coreless motor as an option.
People here might weigh in on the current value of using a coreless motor as an option.
Monon RailroaderOh... collector value doesn't concern me much. It's just that I'd like to have the original setup. I'm odd that way... well, probably in many other ways as well! :-)
Amanda,
I have an Alco Models H20-44 road switcher (ca. 1981) that has a Taneda can motor. While I was initially able to get some impressive slow switching out of her (0.25sMPH) after a good cleaning and re-lubing, the gear towers were very noisy and had quite a bit of slop to them; thereby making them more challenging to maintain so that it ran well reliably. After some discussion with NWSL, I'm looking at completely replacing the towers and motor and going with Stanton drives.
If it's just a simple motor replacement I wouldn't hesitate one whit to do that. You can always keep & store the original "setup" should someone be interested in it. I would be much more interested in it running well...but that's just me.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I think this link should show my motor. (Flickr seems to have changed things a bit!!!)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/188462102@N05/49905060518/in/datetaken/
Hey Ed, that would be great! how do I get in touch with you?
Hi, Amanda,
Click on MY gmpullman screen name in any of the responses and a page will come up which includes "Messages".
M-R_IM-page by Edmund, on Flickr
Open that and there will be a place where you can send a private message. (Start Conversation) You may choose to include your email address or simply send your mailing address in the private message (PM)
You may have your Flickr photo setting to private. If you open your photo in Flickr, scroll toward the bottom of the page, you can change "Viewing Privacy" to public for that one photo, otherwise it is restricted to only people you have sent permission to view it.
I sent you a "PM" that you should be able to open by clicking on "Messages" in the right-hand menu.
Regards, Ed
Monon RailroaderI might go with a can motor for the first RS. I've watched some Youtube videos on the topic. Seems a "relatively" painless process. Just figuring out a mount for it! Actually, I did think of rewinding the armature but common sense got in the way. :-)