traindaddy1 Please "don't shoot the messenger" Seems like (to me) that the "Model Railroader" guys and gals concentrate on HO and smaller gauge/scale projects. Before you "send me to the other forums like the Classic Toys etc., I'd really like to know why, in your opinion, there isn't more interest is the larger "O". As always, many thanks.
Please "don't shoot the messenger"
Seems like (to me) that the "Model Railroader" guys and gals concentrate on HO and smaller gauge/scale projects.
Before you "send me to the other forums like the Classic Toys etc., I'd really like to know why, in your opinion, there isn't more interest is the larger "O".
As always, many thanks.
OldSchoolScratchbuilder richhotrain Scratch, you are totally missing the point. It's not that most modelers don't have space to put up some kind of layout. It is that the space that is available could hold so much more if the scale were HO or N than O. For what space you devote to O, you could double the amount of "layout" for HO.. My point is that many modellers want more, just like you have stated. But in my opinion quantity is far less attractive than less with quality and hand crafted structures and scenery. I am not impressed by sprawling layouts of made-in-China plastic buildings. I also don't like the toy-like accessories that Lionel produces. If I buy a kit it is for the purpose of completely kit bashing it into something else that I will feel is a job well done. Example, Elevated Warehouse O-Scale Kit No. 484 by American Model Builders, Inc. First bonus, it's made in the USA, second bonus, it's not plastic, third bonus, it was very affordable as a kit someone bought and never used. I am taking apart every single strip and reassembling my way except the floor, which will become a subfloor and never be seen. Adding lots of my own materials including the sandstone finish on the outside walls, a shale roof, and real glass windows. I can build over 100 of these warehouses and fit them comfortably in my designated O-scale areas, but of course, I only need one.
richhotrain Scratch, you are totally missing the point. It's not that most modelers don't have space to put up some kind of layout. It is that the space that is available could hold so much more if the scale were HO or N than O. For what space you devote to O, you could double the amount of "layout" for HO..
Scratch, you are totally missing the point.
It's not that most modelers don't have space to put up some kind of layout. It is that the space that is available could hold so much more if the scale were HO or N than O. For what space you devote to O, you could double the amount of "layout" for HO..
My point is that many modellers want more, just like you have stated. But in my opinion quantity is far less attractive than less with quality and hand crafted structures and scenery. I am not impressed by sprawling layouts of made-in-China plastic buildings. I also don't like the toy-like accessories that Lionel produces. If I buy a kit it is for the purpose of completely kit bashing it into something else that I will feel is a job well done.
Example, Elevated Warehouse O-Scale Kit No. 484 by American Model Builders, Inc. First bonus, it's made in the USA, second bonus, it's not plastic, third bonus, it was very affordable as a kit someone bought and never used.
I am taking apart every single strip and reassembling my way except the floor, which will become a subfloor and never be seen. Adding lots of my own materials including the sandstone finish on the outside walls, a shale roof, and real glass windows. I can build over 100 of these warehouses and fit them comfortably in my designated O-scale areas, but of course, I only need one.
Should have responded to this post.
All of it impressive. Very much so.
For me, it strikes me as more time spent on building scenery items than building or operating the railroad.
Model building is great, but its not what draws me to the hobby. Others may differ.
And the larger the scale, the more details needed, the more time needed to where it crosses the line of starting to take away available time for the trains.
But detailed O scale stuff looks reall, really cool.
- Douglas
Doughless My twist on the space issue is not the lack of it, its the fact that all of the scenery items are simply too big for my liking. I like details, and the bigger the items, the more detail that's required, IMO. Building industries that dwarf HO scale equipment takes long enough in terms of time and tedium as it is, but twice the scale means twice the details and twice the tedium to get it to look right. I don't want to spend that much time on details. Others may like it, or might not care about it.
My twist on the space issue is not the lack of it, its the fact that all of the scenery items are simply too big for my liking. I like details, and the bigger the items, the more detail that's required, IMO.
Building industries that dwarf HO scale equipment takes long enough in terms of time and tedium as it is, but twice the scale means twice the details and twice the tedium to get it to look right.
I don't want to spend that much time on details. Others may like it, or might not care about it.
This rings pretty true to me.
I do like adding some detail, but I find HO is perfectly sized for the amount of detail I want to add to structures make them look "right" to me. I've done alot of model building (wargames scenery) in aproximately O scale and while I never strove for precise accuracy, it has been my experience that alot more detail is required to get it looking "right" and not toys'ish at that scale.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
wjstixIf the question is "why doesn't MR do more articles on O scale?" then I think the answer is best shown in the recent (can't remember the month now, May or June?) issue of the NMRA Bulletin regarding O scale/gauge.
MR is not the NMRA, Apples to six or seven Cadillac dealerships.
Its in the May 2018 NMRA Magazine, the email is called the eBulletin...spent 30min reading through emails before I figured out where to look.
wjstixI wouldn't be surprised now if the majority of 'O Scale' 1:48 layouts in the US aren't high-rail layouts.
I would be. Exactly zero Hi-Rail layouts are Oscale. They are Hi-Rail layouts. The track is not scale, it cannot possibly be because the flanges are not scale. The couplers are generally not scale (claws or Kadee's, as the only option for scale couplers at the moment are about $54 a pair, and most people dont spend money on that if they are into 3rail, from my experience).
Im a 3-rail Hi-Rail modeler, but I didnt take offense to Mr. Getz's article, which btw also stated there was a 3-rail MMR. He did state that the NMRA was focused on scale modeling, and was not interested in duplicating the efforts of other groups that focused on "tinplate" (his words, I just read that as 3rail). LCCA and TCA both adequately cover O 3rail.
There are "highrail standards in the NMRA standards", I dont know if anyone uses these or not.
Mr. Getz did lump all 3-rail into one term "tinplate" which is arguably not that accurate. I wouldnt really call anything other than tinplate "tinplate". Tinplate is actually a different thing entirely.
But I wouldn't expect a guy who has spent his life modeling other than O and reads CTT to understand the nuances of O section of the hobby. Nor would most scale modelers care. Why, its not fully scale modeling, and you can only show someone so many pictures of the NYC track pan guard rails (the ones that prevent a scoop lowered too early from smashing into the end of the track pan and causing a derailment) before they call you on there isnt really a prototype for that. But its fun trying.
If I win the lottery, I am building a 12" to the foot scale railroad with three rails and a giant roller underneath...for fun, also so that I can point to it and justfy it to scale modelers....
To the toys point. Aren't all of these technically toys?
Oh and this thread from CTT provides some interesting viewpoints:
http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/270263.aspx
BMME....
You pointed out that hi-rail is technically not O gauge. But apparently common usage in the field lumps them together.
”Interested in O gauge, S gauge, and Standard gauge toy trains? Are you a fan of Lionel, MTH, American Flyer, and other brands of toy trains made today and in the past? If so, the Classic Toy Trains Toy train operating and collecting forum is just for you.”
So, maybe the hi-rail folks consider themselves to be a relaxed group of O gaugers but the ”serious” O gauge prototype modelers might disagree.
The tribalism is the model train fan community is fascinating. Fan is short for Fanatic, after all.
The Gnome BMME.... You pointed out that hi-rail is technically not O gauge. But apparently common usage in the field lumps them together. ”Interested in O gauge, S gauge, and Standard gauge toy trains? Are you a fan of Lionel, MTH, American Flyer, and other brands of toy trains made today and in the past? If so, the Classic Toy Trains Toy train operating and collecting forum is just for you.” So, maybe the hi-rail folks consider themselves to be a relaxed group of O gaugers but the ”serious” O gauge prototype modelers might disagree. The tribalism is the model train fan community is fascinating. Fan is short for Fanatic, after all.
That is not what I said. Or possibly not what I meant since my post was confusing...
I said that it technically not O "Scale". Hi-Rail is definitely O-guage. All of it runs on O-Guage track. Except as noted below...
In reality, both scale out to about 5' between the rails so I'll bring Proto48 into the conversation for arguements sake.
Edit:
Above I transposed the words O scale and Hi-Rail in my reply to Stix...
Should have read "Exactly 0 Hi-Rail Layouts are O scale" vice "Exactly 0 Oscale layouts are Hi-Rail."
On its own the sentence makes sense, but it context it was confusing, since correccted.
Ok. Now i see, (said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw).
wjstixThe editorial basically says any O layout with three rails is a "toy train" layout, and the NMRA doesn't cover "toys". So a $1200 Sunset brass locomotive that's made to run on two-rail O gauge track is a "scale model", but the exact same engine built to run on three-rail O gauge track is a "toy".
.
Both these models, as well as all my HO locomotives, are toys.
Why do we get so hung up on this? My model soldiers are toys, my 4WD truck is a toy, we all play with toys.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
You got a point Kevin and I look at it this way.
Everything's a toy. It started that way at childhood and been that way ever since.
Bigger boys have bigger toys. Some of the kids that played with their trucks a lot when they where kids have an excavation company now.
Some of the kids that played with her Hot Wheels a lot, now have a classic car or two, restore them for a living, or both.
People with lots of money have yachts and jets. Those are nice toys! I don't think they played with boats and planes when they were kids. They just have lots of money.
The Trains we admired and watched all the time when we were kids were just too neat. A little plastic one that rolled back and forth just wasn't good enough. It didn't Rumble, Hiss, Shake the Ground, and Thunder Down the Rails. But they were just too darn big to play with and certainly would not fit in the basement. We were all forced to downsize.
Still love trains
PS..... All the other kids toys got bigger. I guess ours started out as Huge Steel Beasts and somehow just got smaller. They're still real neat to watch though..... It's a Model Railroad thing they probably wouldn't understand.
All of which strays from the initial question, why not O.
Answer: It is too big, takes up too much space, is more expensive than HO or N, and lacks the the availability and diversity of smaller scale locos, rolling stock and structures.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain All of which strays from the initial question, why not O. Answer: It is too big, takes up too much space, is more expensive than HO or N, and lacks the the availability and diversity of smaller scale locos, rolling stock and structures. Rich
Well, doesnt that depend if the op was asking about wht O isnt covered in MR very much. Then its kind of applicable. But not fully.
BMMECNYC richhotrain All of which strays from the initial question, why not O. Answer: It is too big, takes up too much space, is more expensive than HO or N, and lacks the the availability and diversity of smaller scale locos, rolling stock and structures. Rich Well, doesnt that depend if the op was asking about wht O isnt covered in MR very much. Then its kind of applicable. But not fully.
Here is what the OP asked in his initial post:
richhotrainis more expensive than HO
I dunno, some of those HO cars are pretty expensive - over $60.
Paul
The scale is 1:48. If your trains are 1:48 it's O scale. Sure the track may be a little high, but except for some very small protoXX groups, everyone's models are out of scale in some parts like wheels, couplers, etc.
And some big manufacturer's sell their trains with both "HiRail" wheels and "Scale" wheels like Atlas. When it comes to structures their is very little difference - Plasticville is available in HO and O, so is Woodland Scenics.
The only real difference here is size. But that works both ways depending on what you're doing and what you want out of the hobby.
For me I don't have a basement the size of a gymnasium or Convention Center. I am generous to my hobby but spending $500-1,000 or more on a locomotive does not fit my budget parameters for this hobby, not even close.
If what I stated above was feasible I probably would do O scale. The bigger the better right.
There is trade-offs with a big scale like O in comparison with N scale. One must be willing to spend a whole lot more time on detail. You can pretty much almost see a fly on a telephone pole in O scale. On the other end of the spectrum N scale is much more forgiving. HO scale is the happy medium right in between.
Maybe that's why HO is so popular (edit) and O scale some what takes the backseat.
wjstix,For one thing, many of the 3-rail models are not the same as their 2-rail versions. The couplers, coupler pockets, coupler mounts are all different. The wheels tend to be smaller and the flanges are huge. Diesels tend to have split pilots to handle sharper curves and other compromises are made for them to operate on very tight curves. So yes, they aren't scale models but are instead toy trains because the emphasis isn't on the accurate reproduction of the prototype, but instead on the ability to be played with. The fact that they share the same shell of a scale model is irrelevent.
BMMECNYC,Well, there is a prototype for center 3rd rail that I know of, and that's the Nantasket Beach Branch of the New Haven RR in Hingham and Hull, Mass. It was one of the first heavy electric lines in the USA and used an "A" shaped center rail to supply DC power to the self-propelled cars and motor baggage cars.http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/3rail.Html
It was eventually removed due to the electrocution hazard because people that wanted to cross the tracks would step on an outside rail then step on the center rail. Bzzzt!SeeYou190, and Track fiddler,The problem will calling everything in our hobby a "toy" is that the word is not really a compliment nor is it really accurate for scale modeling. A toy is something for a child to play with and something of little to no value (by dictionary definition). Now, scale models are not for children (choking hazards along with breakable parts) and some are quite expensive in time or money spent. They are hardly toys.
Tinplate O or S are indeed toys: they are meant for children to play with.
Put it this way: a scale model of a building made by an architect for a client is something no one would call a toy. I do the same thing, and suddenly it's a toy? Nope. Not buying that.
IRONROOSTER,Sure, some HO is more expensive than O scale. I have brass HO locos that cost way more than even scale O-scale plastic locos. But there is no equivalent to Athearn in O-scale. I can go to any train show in the US and find an Athearn BB car for $5 or less. Can you say the same about scale O-scale?
Paul3The problem will calling everything in our hobby a "toy" is that the word is not really a compliment nor is it really accurate for scale modeling. A toy is something for a child to play with and something of little to no value (by dictionary definition). Now, scale models are not for children (choking hazards along with breakable parts) and some are quite expensive in time or money spent. They are hardly toys.
What is the old saying? The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. I'm past caring anymore if someone calls my fine scale models "toys". I'm not bothered.
In the grand scheme of the universe, these trains we have really are "toys" for our amusement, even if they are more "sophisticated" vs. childrens toys.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Paul3 I can go to any train show in the US and find an Athearn BB car for $5 or less. Can you say the same about scale O-scale?
Well, the train shows I have been going to lately want $7-10 and up for Athearn BB - some as high as $15. But you're right, the cheapest O scale I have seen lately at train shows run $20 to $25.
OTOH if you're happy with plastic wheels and horn hook couplers, I'm not sure why the 3 rail wheels and couplers bother you.
Paul3 A toy is something for a child to play with and something of little to no value (by dictionary definition). Now, scale models are not for children (choking hazards along with breakable parts) and some are quite expensive in time or money spent. They are hardly toys. Tinplate O or S are indeed toys: they are meant for children to play with.
You need to check prices if you think Tinplate is of "little to no value". New Tinplate is more expensive than plastic. And the plastic can be quite expensive. A lot of it has fragile details to boot. By your definition "Tinplate O or S" are not toys.
Hey Paul3
Although you somewhat offended me a little, I can laugh along with it.
No big thing here and with all due respect you should read your text a little more closely before you make a false analogy. And since you grouped SeeYou190 and myself together I'll clarify what he said too. Basically in a nutshell he said O scale trains that run on 3 rails are considered a toy by the NMRA but the ones that run on two rails are not. He went on to say he doesn't know what the big hang-up is, he could even consider his four-wheel-drive a toy. Basically I elaborated on what he said in a little more detail. I did not categorize our model trains alone as toys either. I basically said everything in the world that is acquired and fun can be considered a toy. Bigger boys have bigger toys. I don't know about you but when I take my 69 classic car and go 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, alert and aware of my surroundings and doing it only where it's safe, such as a controlled environment...... It's a Fun Toy! .... No sense putting rocket science to it.
Okay then, I feel good about setting things straight.... have a great day
IRONROOSTER Well, the train shows I have been going to lately want $7-10 and up for Athearn BB - some as high as $15. But you're right, the cheapest O scale I have seen lately at train shows run $20 to $25. Paul
Paul, do you go to the Timonium show? I really thought I've seen Athearn bb kits and the like there for less than what you quoted, but I haven't really priced them the last couple times. I have picked up nice RTR Intermountain and ExactRail there for as little as $8 (IMRC) and $10 (ExactRail). I'm just up the road from you on 15 about 10 miles and I think I still make it to Timonium in less than 2 hours on Saturdays. (I do grocery shopping in Culpeper on weekends )
riogrande5761I really thought I've seen Athearn bb kits and the like there for less than what you quoted, but I haven't really priced them the last couple times.
Jim,I've also seen BB and Roundhouse kits $15.00 and used BB and Roundhouse with KD and metal wheels selling for $20.00 at several tables while other dealers had the same kits for far less.
I seen a guy fork over $65.00 for a new undecorated BB SW7 cow and calf set. Both engines was powered He was happy as a 2 headed woodpecker in a bucket of worms since these was new and both had their detail bag..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Although I understand the idea that all our trains are "toys", I kinda go more for what Louis Hertz (IIRC) believed - that they're ALL models, as all electric trains are miniature versions of real trains. Some are just more accurate than others.
If we're saying scale trains have to run on 'scale' track...I'd note that running 1:48 scale equipment on O gauge (1.25" gauge) track means running on track that's five feet wide in scale, instead of the correct 4' 8-1/2" standard gauge....no matter how high the rails are!
BTW you know Lionel hasn't made "tinplate" track for several years now. They only do their "Fastrack" with scale ties and roadbed.
http://www.lionelstore.com/LionelStore%20Product%20Images/612033-1.jpg
When I was a "hi-railer" in the 1970's-80's most of my equipment - except for some craftsman's kits I built - were the old Atlas cars (both RTR and kits). They came with wheels with deep flanges that ran fine on 'tinplate' track from Lionel or K-Line. It was very easy to remove the large truck-mounted Lionel compatible (more or less) couplers and put in Kadees. I presume the deep flanges worked just as well on Atlas' O two-rail track they produced then...so I'm not clear how putting a car on two rail track makes it 'scale' but the exact same car sitting on three rail track is a 'toy'?
Sunset Models Inc. had a "3rd Rail" line of 1:48 brass engines that run on three-rail track.
http://www.3rdrail.com/
These engines are a lot more detailed than some of the "scale models" currently on the market.
riogrande5761 IRONROOSTER Well, the train shows I have been going to lately want $7-10 and up for Athearn BB - some as high as $15. But you're right, the cheapest O scale I have seen lately at train shows run $20 to $25. Paul Paul, do you go to the Timonium show? I really thought I've seen Athearn bb kits and the like there for less than what you quoted, but I haven't really priced them the last couple times. I have picked up nice RTR Intermountain and ExactRail there for as little as $8 (IMRC) and $10 (ExactRail). I'm just up the road from you on 15 about 10 miles and I think I still make it to Timonium in less than 2 hours on Saturdays. (I do grocery shopping in Culpeper on weekends )
I do go to Timonium shows with my son (I drive to Sterling, he drives from there) to most shows. I also, hit a smattering of Greenberg and local shows like the Bunker Hill Train Club show in Ransom, WV.
The prices to me seem to be going up. I'm not really into collecting Athearn BB, but I do collect MDC/Roundhouse Old Timers. So I kind of notice the used HO prices and it seems like Athearn BB has been creeping up over the last 2-3 years. But I am only interested in unbuilt kits (used new stuff so to speak), so maybe the used built ones loose in cardboard boxes are less. I consider those to be junk boxes and just skip over them - although that may be too harsh.
Of course at a train show you can occaisionally find a good price - I picked up a couple of TrainMinature boxcar kits for $4 a piece last year. But those were the only unbuilt new in box kits sitting in card board box, the rest were used cars without boxes just sort of heaped in there. So finds at good prices are there, just not the norm.
I love O scale 2 rail, but with only a 8 foot by 9 foot train room, I lack the space for what I would desire in a railroad. Even HO scale is tight in that space. I dislike plastic engines, diecast metal or brass is prefered and I am a diesel person, so mostly high doller brass if I want modern diesels. I do have an old All Nation F3 that I am slowly painting up in Monon passenger colors for display purposes. For what most O scale brass diesels sell for, I can get G scale for my garden railway or 1 1/2 inch scale for my ride on line my wife and I just started building.
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Lionel O36 FasTrack has a middle rail. does it qualify as hi-rail?
The Gnome Lionel O36 FasTrack has a middle rail. does it qualify as hi-rail?
Hi rail is generally considered to be track which supports the deeper flanges of Lionel or American Flyer trains (and compatibles). In the past the smaller flange wheels did not operate these rails. Although Lionel's O gauge Fastrack is still a sheet of metal folded over, their American Flyer Fastrack has rail that is approx. code 125 and has a rail cross section like that of MicroEngineering track. It will support both deep flanges (HiRail) and RP25 flanges (Scale), although the turnouts and crossings have wide/deep flange ways for the HiRail wheels.
So yes Lionel O36 Fastrack is hirail
Paul,
thanks. That helps. I guess that means the old stuff will run on the fastrack.
A starter set is not expensive. And i am not into building roadbeds or filing points or nailing track down, so the rtr sounds good to me.
If i get a starter set, i can take my time finding a few used tinplate cars.
not sure how the new line will interface with the on30 lines, but i can figure that out later.
The GnomeIf i get a starter set, i can take my time finding a few used tinplate cars.
As a fun fact I've seen a pretty nice O-27 layout on a 36" x 80" hollow core door.
The guy used Lionel O-27 cars,locomotive and structures from the 50s.
Larry,
I think you are saying that 036 will not run 027 cars from the fifties. is that correct?
BRAKIEJim,I've also seen BB and Roundhouse kits $15.00 and used BB and Roundhouse with KD and metal wheels selling for $20.00 at several tables while other dealers had the same kits for far less.
Modus operandi at shows and Ebay. My point is, generally you don't have to pay elevated prices for Athearn blue box and the like. There has been a glut of kits on the market over the past 10 years after the emergence of RTR and it has been evident at the shows I go to.
I have been going to 3-4 shows a year and really haven't noticed much change myself. People comment on stuff so I make it a point to look around to see if I see those things myself, but pretty much each time I see a high availability of low priced kits at shows. Sure, things vary a bit from show to show, but over all I it doesn't seem to have changed much that I see.
My "common sense" guess as to the reason for high availability is due to: 1) people had bought/hoarded more kits than they had time to build and have been selling them off since they can buy RTR and 2) semi related, kits have been going back on the secondary market as part of estate sales as modelers with collections pass away or sell off stuff no longer needed.