Steven Otte On an aside note... can you think of industries that did the opposite? Receive by truck, ship by rail? Transloading warehouses, grain elevators, produce packing houses, coal truck dumps, some sawmills... any others?
On an aside note... can you think of industries that did the opposite? Receive by truck, ship by rail? Transloading warehouses, grain elevators, produce packing houses, coal truck dumps, some sawmills... any others?
My grandfather worked at a book bindery. When I was a kid (early 60s), and before there was FedEx or UPS, I would go with him to take less-than-carloads to the freight station to ship via REA. They rounded every box to the nearest 100 pounds or something. I also seem to remember that all the agents wore six-guns.
Not exactly on topic, but oh well . . .
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
BRAKIE Steven,The rational study of rail operations will show very few industries will receive and then ship by rail.It's a proven fact.That started changing with the coming of trucks and improved highways. Even when I worked on the PRR we picked up far more empties then loads my guess around 70%.On the Chessie (C&O) it was even because for the first four years I worked mine runs. The last two years was in the road pool and we carried a lot of empties. What you call boring is a vital part of railroading..Loads in /empties out it been like that for years.
Steven,The rational study of rail operations will show very few industries will receive and then ship by rail.It's a proven fact.That started changing with the coming of trucks and improved highways.
Even when I worked on the PRR we picked up far more empties then loads my guess around 70%.On the Chessie (C&O) it was even because for the first four years I worked mine runs. The last two years was in the road pool and we carried a lot of empties.
What you call boring is a vital part of railroading..Loads in /empties out it been like that for years.
I guess it depends on the time period being modeled on the club layout. The majority of layouts are set in the transition era of the 1950s, when the national highway system was just getting started. It's a lot easier to justify industries that both receive and ship via rail during that period.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Steven OtteDistributor-type industries that only receive loads and ship out only empties seem pretty boring to me, operations-wise
Maybe it time for a new book on the study of rail and industries they serve Volumes one through five. That should cover the basics.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Heartland Division CB&Q Regarding distribitors as industries, Steven has a good point. By themselves, they are a little boring. ... However, they can be the final indistry in a sequence of industries. The steel distributor follows the steel mill. As discussed, the steel mill has inbound and outbound loads. .... Sequences can be (with the Walthers steel mill ) Coal from coal mine to coke oven.... Coke to the blast furnace ..... Ore and stone also are delivered to the blast furnace. Blast furnace ships hot metal to the the electric furnace. Blast furnace ships slag and ash to dump sites. Electric furnace also receives scrap metal. Electric furnace ships steel slabs to rolling mill. Rolling mill ships structural steel. Steel distributor receives the structural steel. Another industry is a scrap yard which ships scrap metal to the steel mill. By itself, the scrap yard could be considered boring. (Empty gons inbound and loaded gons outbound). However, it is part of an overall flow of commodites which keeps operators busy. I have all of that on my layout except my coal mine still has not been built.
Regarding distribitors as industries, Steven has a good point. By themselves, they are a little boring. ... However, they can be the final indistry in a sequence of industries.
The steel distributor follows the steel mill. As discussed, the steel mill has inbound and outbound loads. ....
Sequences can be (with the Walthers steel mill )
Coal from coal mine to coke oven.... Coke to the blast furnace .....
Ore and stone also are delivered to the blast furnace.
Blast furnace ships hot metal to the the electric furnace. Blast furnace ships slag and ash to dump sites.
Electric furnace also receives scrap metal. Electric furnace ships steel slabs to rolling mill.
Rolling mill ships structural steel.
Steel distributor receives the structural steel.
Another industry is a scrap yard which ships scrap metal to the steel mill. By itself, the scrap yard could be considered boring. (Empty gons inbound and loaded gons outbound). However, it is part of an overall flow of commodites which keeps operators busy.
I have all of that on my layout except my coal mine still has not been built.
Steel mills also produce sheet metal in giant rolls shipped in coil cars to stamping mills and auto assembly plants. Then autos out on auto racks. Then auto racks to intermodal yards. Then OTR trucks to Honest Cal Worthington . . .
I recall Kellogg's plant in Battle Creek, MI had an abundance of rail activity...
Inbound ingrediants and packaging.
Outboud cereal.
You may wish to consider that.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
I guess the most important factor is how many carloads the site will take. Supermarkets have central warehousing where everything from bananas to soap are distributed to stores within their area. A smll yard would allow hourly (?)rearranging of cars for unloading. A huge receiver in the 1950s was a Sears distribution center. The one in Philadelphia recieved 20 cars of GE appliances alone and nearly everything they sold came by rail. A yard and a switcher could be kept busy all day there.
BRAKIE Steven,If I may? IMHO its time we start looking outside of the normal layout industry box for our industries. Here's a short list that will work on any size layout. 1.Pipe Distributor In bound loads of pipe in flats, gons and bulkhead flats. Out empties. 2.Steel distributor in loads of steel beams,sheet steel, angle steel and steel rebar. 3.Crushed glass recycling company..They ship crushed in three bay covered hoppers. This is a new one to me but,I've seen the photos. 4.Polymer companies in plastic pellets and plasticsizer Out empties. 5.Timkin Automotive. In axle tubing for truck trailer axles. Out empty gons.
Steven,If I may? IMHO its time we start looking outside of the normal layout industry box for our industries.
Here's a short list that will work on any size layout.
1.Pipe Distributor In bound loads of pipe in flats, gons and bulkhead flats. Out empties.
2.Steel distributor in loads of steel beams,sheet steel, angle steel and steel rebar.
3.Crushed glass recycling company..They ship crushed in three bay covered hoppers. This is a new one to me but,I've seen the photos.
4.Polymer companies in plastic pellets and plasticsizer Out empties.
5.Timkin Automotive. In axle tubing for truck trailer axles. Out empty gons.
Distributor-type industries that only receive loads and ship out only empties seem pretty boring to me, operations-wise. Such industries are best modeled off-layout, represented by staging, IMHO. If one is looking to build a variety of traffic on a club layout that has to accommodate the varied interests of its club members, I would favor industries that receive raw goods in one kind of freight car and ship finished product in a different kind of car. Such as the previously mentioned steel mills, breweries, auto assembly plants, sawmills, etc. They may seem clichéd, but there's a reason modelers have favored these industries over the years.
hon30critter PED Do you have room for an interchange track? I put one on mine. My main trackage is Santa Fe but with a small interchange track with the Frisco, I can generate a lot of traffic to/from unseen industries. When you say "small", what is the length of the track? Is it long enough to build a train on or is it only a suggestion of a track coming from elsewhere? Thanks, Dave
PED
Do you have room for an interchange track? I put one on mine. My main trackage is Santa Fe but with a small interchange track with the Frisco, I can generate a lot of traffic to/from unseen industries.
When you say "small", what is the length of the track? Is it long enough to build a train on or is it only a suggestion of a track coming from elsewhere?
Thanks,
Dave
When I say small, I can only handle about 4 cars (plus switcher loco) on my exchange trac. My exchange track is a double track with turnout each end to allow for a run around. I actually have two such tracks on my layout. One is with the Frisco and one with the Rock Island. Since mine is a home layout (restricted space), I do not have much space to allocate to the foreign RR's so they just cross my Santa Fe layout at an angle (for the interchange track) and then disappear off the edge of my layout. Since I do not have space for the unseen trackage of the foreign RR's, cars can be delivered/received from the exchange track via a Frisco or Rock Island loco then moved to an off site location via my 0-5-0 loco .
As a resut, I can handle 3-4 cars on the exchange track itself then have room for 3-4 cars (plus loco) on the foreign RR end of the exchange track. Once cars get past the exchange track on the foreign RR, that is where my 0-5-0 takes over. That give me some room to use the foreign loco to move cars to/from the exchange track.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
gmpullmanMaybe consider getting a Walthers O.L. King Coal building and adding an ell or two, as so many times these businesses simply tacked on another building or two as sales grew.
I found a couple of the O. L. King kits listed on eBay but by the time they got delivered to my door I'd be looking at around $55.00 Cdn. I'm not sure that I could justify the cost for the size of the kit. If it was more refined I might take the plunge, but as you said, the window muntins are a bit on the heavy side. Being a retired window salesperson (among other things) the crude windows would bother me. In fact, I have the same problem with the windows on most of the kits that we are considering. I wish Walthers would buy Grandt Line!! Can you imagine the improvement in the quality of the kits?!?
However, I have already scratchbuilt a small coal trestle and a truck weigh scale so I could use just about any small industrial buildings to serve as the office and other structures. I also have a bunch of Walthers brick sheets. This might be an opportunity to teach a couple of the club members how to scratch build. Hmmmm.
(How can Walthers do such a great job with their brick sheets and such a lousy job with their windows?) Again!
Thanks again Ed!
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
To anyone who I have failed to reply to directly, I apologise. Everyone's ideas have been great. It's going to take some time to digest them all.
Edit:
I just did a count of the number of different suggestions that people have offered so far in this thread. We are in excess of 20 possible core industries, not including the spin off businesses that some of these industries would feed! Great work gang!! Thanks.
PED Do you have room for an interchange track? I put one on mine. My main trackage is Santa Fe but with a small interchange track with the Frisco, I can generate a lot of traffic to/from unseen industries.
Hi Paul:
BRAKIERegardless of era we model its well past the time we start looking outside the normal layout industrial box for industries that match our cars and location we model..
Hi again Larry:
I like your suggestion to do something a bit different, but that comes with some challenges. Being that this is a club layout we want to get as many people involved in as much of the construction as possible. Our problem is that we have very few members who have successfully kitbashed or scratchbuilt their own structures. I said in my first post that scratchbuilding and kitbashing were options, but it turns out that not that many members can do that sort of thing to decent standards. Using the readily available kits solves that problem, at least for now, and it doesn't preclude changing things later on to something a little less common. In fact, we intend to install the industries on bases so that they can be lifted out easily, either to allow more work to be done, or to simply change the scene.
I love scratch building and kit bashing, but I certainly don't want to get saddled with having to build half or more of the structures on the layout myself.
Hi Wayne:
Thanks for the links and the offer to help with items for Gern Industries. I think the guys would get quite a kick out of modelling something a bit whimsical.
Heartland Division CB&Q Beer was delivered by rail for many years. Insulated box cars (RBL) of the 1960’s were an example of rail cars that hauled beer.
And many 62' RBL boxcars still carry it.
I think you missed my point or more then likely I didn't make myself clear.
Regardless of era we model its well past the time we start looking outside the normal layout industrial box for industries that match our cars and location we model..
MisterBeasleyOne thing you might consider is an icing platform.
Already in the plans, but thanks for the suggestion.
Dave Nelson:
A slaughter house eh! Why not? I have a bunch of stock cars that really need a purpose in life. Toronto had huge stock yards.
Hi, Dave
I remember going through some of the older towns along this side of the Great Lakes and seeing some of the old coal yards. Some of the smarter business people "diversified" as the coal business was waning and went into fuel oil, bottle gas, appliances, gravel and... lumber.
Maybe consider getting a Walthers O.L. King Coal building and adding an ell or two, as so many times these businesses simply tacked on another building or two as sales grew.
Often times separate buildings were the norm, too, so that if there was a fire it wasn't a total loss.
My OL King was converted to a scrap dealer, the truck scale was already there so it was kind of a natural progression.
I'd really like to find better windows as this was an early Cornerstone kit and the mullions are kind of klunky.
I've always liked the look of the Valley Citrus Packer building. I think it would make a nice lumber yard office (made of — lumber, too!) maybe you could join it to OL King or use it as a stand-alone?
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/walthers-ho-933-2926-valley-citrus-packers-kit/
Just a thought,
Regards, Ed
jcopilotHow about a paper cup company?
Hi Jeff,
That would certainly fit in with Steven's and Larry's suggestions for industries that would be supplied by a paper mill.
BRAKIE Heartland Division CB&Q You are off to a good start. Sequences of industries make interesting operations. Example..... Grain elevator .... Flour Mill .... Large bakery Or .... Grain elevator .... Brewery .... Beer distributor Garry,With respect your examples is why its past time to look outside of the nomal layout industry ideas since we need to fit the industries to our collection of cars. Brewery .... Beer distributor. Sorry but,the truckers seems to have the bulk of that business.
Heartland Division CB&Q You are off to a good start. Sequences of industries make interesting operations. Example..... Grain elevator .... Flour Mill .... Large bakery Or .... Grain elevator .... Brewery .... Beer distributor
You are off to a good start.
Sequences of industries make interesting operations.
Example..... Grain elevator .... Flour Mill .... Large bakery
Or .... Grain elevator .... Brewery .... Beer distributor
Garry,With respect your examples is why its past time to look outside of the nomal layout industry ideas since we need to fit the industries to our collection of cars.
Brewery .... Beer distributor. Sorry but,the truckers seems to have the bulk of that business.
Brakie .. it depends on the era we model. Beer was delivered by rail for many years. Insulated box cars (RBL) of the 1960’s were an example of rail cars that hauled beer.
The beauty of model railroading is we can freeze time. So there is no “ past time “.
BRAKIEDave,If I may? Avoid interlocking industries unless its a mine/power plant,mine/river terminal,mine /coke plant or mine/steel mill. A saw mill to lumber company just looks to uninformed modeling even back in the 30s that lumber would have been trucked from any nearby mill.
Hi Larry,
I understand your point about how the lumber mill would have been supplied. I'll have to think about that.
The mine/power plant is certainly up for consideration. There were some pretty hefty coal fired power plants in Ontario. Now it's split between hydro generation and nuclear.
Having a paper mill and a plant (or plants) that consume paper is a great idea.
Thanks.
nealknowsWhat about a lumber yard? This could work well with Steve's suggestion about a paper mill.
Hi Neal:
A lumber mill is already in the plans, but I'm having a bit of trouble finding a suitable main building. Walthers Mountain Lumber Company is a bit too large for the space we have available so we are considering either a kitbash or a scratch build using some of the parts from the Walthers kit. The other problem with the kit is that the walls are corrugated steel. We want to use the New River mine but it is corrugated steel construction too, as are the Glacier Gravel Company, the Kraft Mill - Superior Paper and Metro Power and Light. Five large buildings all with the same construction may be realistic but it would also be very repetetive - boring in other words. Northern Light and Power is definitely an option for a power company. It is brick.
https://www.walthers.com/mountain-lumber-company-sawmill-kit
https://www.walthers.com/new-river-mining-company-kit-main-building-12-1-2-x-9-x-9-3-8-quot-31-2-x-22-5-x-23-2cm
https://www.walthers.com/glacier-gravel-company-kit-9-3-8-x-11-x-10-1-4-quot-23-8-x-27-9-x-26cm
https://www.walthers.com/kraft-mill-superior-paper-kit-15-x-10-1-4-x-19-3-4-quot-38-1-x-26-x-50-1cm
https://www.walthers.com/metro-power-light-kit-generating-plant-13-7-8-x-10-x-13-quot-35-2-x-25-4-x-33cm
https://www.walthers.com/northern-light-power-powerhouse-kit-12-3-4-x-6-1-2-x-7-quot-31-8-x-16-2-x-17-5cm
Steven OttePaper mills usually have multiple sidings to receive and ship multiple kinds of freight. Pulpwood, wood chips, and/or sawdust (to make the pulp), rolls or bales of pulp in boxcars (if it's a pulp-only mill), tanks of chemicals (to turn wood into pulp and to bleach the paper), kaolin (clay slurry, in tank cars) to make the paper glossy, coal to fuel the on-site power plant, occasional boxcars of replacement machine parts, and captive-service boxcars to ship the finished product. And the paper-making process takes a lot of water, so mills are always situated along rivers, lakes, or canals, making for interesting scenic opportunities. Take a look at Jeff Wilson's book Industries Along the Tracks 2.
Thanks Steven, great suggestions for both the paper mill and the book.
gmpullmanWell, you did... but maybe forgot. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/263292.aspx
Yep, I forgot! Thanks for the reminder and the links.
With all those industries, they must be shipping/receiving from a lot of places that require a transfer from another line. Do you have room for an interchange track? I put one on mine. My main trackage is Santa Fe but with a small interchange track with the Frisco, I can generate a lot of traffic to/from unseen industries.
I liked Ed's idea with a brewery. I designed the brewery to be served with boxcars, hoppers, covered hoppers, tank cars and maybe a gondola or flat car depending on the load is needed.
This freight cars can also be used for a Candy factory/ Pillsbury foods.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
How about a scrap dealer, not a scrap yard. Scrap metal like brass or copper comes in, ingots go out.
A rolling mill. Ingots in, coils of metal go out.
An automotive parts supplier. Like rear axle assemblies shipped to the final assembly plant.
hon30critterPlease share both your suggestions and examples of what you have done (doctorwayne, I eagerly await your input!).
Dave, I'm uncertain as to the era of your club layout, but here are a few links to industry suggestions which may be useful...
Link #1
Link #2
Link #3
Link #4
Link #4a
Suggestion #4 was designed mainly as a traffic generator, and uses a variety of car types, as seen in suggestion #4a. If you're interested in this, send me an e-mail or pm, as there's some advertising, signage, and related items of interest available.
The sub-forum to which my links take you also offers other industrial suggestions.
Wayne