I managed to convince the Layout Committee to let me order a few kits that are either discontinued and/or are on sale for very good prices. This is what I ordered:
Northern Light & Power Power Station #933-3021
Reliable Storage #933-3014
Golden Valley Canning #933-3018
American Hardware Supply #933-3097
Central Valley 200' truss bridge #210-1901
The structures will likely be renamed. American Hardware Supply will probably be bashed into a background building.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
We held a Layout Committee meeting on Monday night. The first topic of discussion was what structures to put on the layout. The committee decided to defer those decisions until the mainline is operating successfully.
Everyone on the committee complained of being overwhelmed by all the suggestions that I had made (based mostly on your recommendations so it is all your fault!). The fact is that the President had taken it upon himself to show everybody all the possible structures that we might use on the layout before I had finished sorting out the list. So, I will have to put all of your sage advice on the back burner for now. In the interim, if you have any pictures to share showing what you have done with various kits I would be most interested. George's rendition of the Atlas Middlesex Manufacturing kit is the sort of inspiration that I am looking for (scroll up a few posts to see it).
Thanks again for all your ideas!
Heartland Division CB&QA general remark ... Dave, this thread turned out to be a great one. Thanks for starting it. Kudos to Larry, George, and ALL others who participated...
Thanks Garry!
I totally agree that the thread has generated some great ideas, particularly in terms of defining the types of loads both in and out. I hope that I can use the suggestions to get the club to focus on how to model and operate a variety of industries. As I said before, up until now the discussion at the club has been very general, i.e. vague.
Ulrichthere are plenty of small receivers and middlemen type operations that don't take as much space... like a steel distributor. They tend to receive different products in different cars and you don't need a large manufacturing complex. A few tracks.. maybe an overhead crane..an unloading ramp and dock and a company office. Same with a lumber yard.. you don't need the sawmill.. just the shipping a nd receiving infrastructure.
Hi Ulrich:
You make a very good point, especially where space is limited. The Layout Committee is meeting on Monday night and I will include your suggestions in the discussion.
I do think that there should be a few larger industrial buildings on our layout where space permits. For example, if we decide to model the New River Mine, there is more than enough space to accommodate the entire kit in the area where it would best be located.
Thanks,
A general remark ...
Dave, this thread turned out to be a great one. Thanks for starting it.
Kudos to Larry, George, and ALL others who participated...
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
UlrichManufacturers are usually large and difficult to model.. i.e. there's no such thing as a small steel mill or a small auto plant..
A lot of heavy manufacturing like (say) Whirlpool,GE ,Westinghouse,mini steel mills,Fisher body,coke plants can be modeled along the backdrop or as a hidden industry. You see the the gate behind a small hill or modeled industries and maybe the stacks peeking over the foreground industries.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Here's a few ideas,
A glass plant, makes bottles, ships bottles to brewery.
Wood pellet plant, you could do truck in rail out OR do trucks offload woodchuck to hoppers OR wood mill makes chips ship chips in hoppers, hoppers deliver to wood pellet plant, wood pellet plant ships unit trains of covered hoppers to power plant (can be modeled). With that you get at least three industries, have a lumber yard and paper mill theres five, have a paper goods maker (cardboard?) There's six, a packaging maker gets lumber and card board, crates, pallets, and boxes out, that's seven, have companies to receive said package makerso goods and package their product in it, there's eight or more!
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Manufacturers are usually large and difficult to model.. i.e. there's no such thing as a small steel mill or a small auto plant.. but there are plenty of small receivers and middlemen type operations that don't take as much space... like a steel distributor. They tend to receive different products in different cars and you don't need a large manufacturing complex. A few tracks.. maybe an overhead crane..an unloading ramp and dock and a company office. Same with a lumber yard.. you don't need the sawmill.. just the shipping a nd receiving infrastructure. I'm modelling a newspaper.. paper in via boxcars.. new presses in via flatcar.. and ink in by tank car.
G PaineI almost forgot about this one. Atlas Middlesex Manufacturing is another old time brick factory. I just finished kitbashing it into a paint factory.
George:
That is a great kitbash! I really like the depth that you gave the front of the building.
I have two of the Middlesex Manufacturing kits which I will offer to the club. I had envisaged using them to create a large background building to fill some of the 50 or so feet of wall space that needs attention.
Just a quick update to let you know where the process sits right now. I went through the Walthers catalogue and printed off about 25 various industries. I have grouped related industries together so we can operate between them. My next step is to do a spread sheet showing what types of loads each of the industries would ship and receive. The excellent suggestions that have been offered in this thread have really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
The next step will be to sit down with the club members and have a discussion about which scenarios they are interested in. We have already had a few discussions about what industries they wanted but the were very general. We have not discussed detailed operations. Again, the advice that you have offered will lend some real depth to the negotiations.
Then I will have to spend some time figuring out how to fit the industries into the layout. Some of the kits like the New River Mine will fit quite nicely, but others like Mountain Lumber will have to be kitbashed. Actually, I have looked at the Mountain Lumber kit and my initial response is to scratch build the main building at about 2/3rds the size of the one in the kit, and then use all the detail bits and out buildings to finish the scene. Cutting the building down would be difficult because of the placements of the doors and windows on the front and back of the building. By reducing the footprint of the main building we will be able to run a siding or two up beside it. If the kit is built full size there won't be any room for tracks where we want to locate it.
New River Mine:
https://www.walthers.com/new-river-mining-company-kit-main-building-12-1-2-x-9-x-9-3-8-quot-31-2-x-22-5-x-23-2cm
Incidently, the mine may not be mining coal. There isn't a whole lot of coal in Ontario. It would be more suitable as a nickel mine ala Sudbury. We could even do the Big Nickel Monument:
http://www.orwelltoday.com/nickelstatue.jpg
Mountain Lumber:
https://www.walthers.com/mountain-lumber-company-sawmill-kit
There are too many other kits to discuss here, but I will let you know what ones we choose.
Just so you are aware, we are not likely going to be buying too many of the more expensive craftsman kits. We set a budget for all the scenery costs and spending $100 - $200 per kit would leave much of the layout sitting empty!
So much for the "quick" update.
Cheers!!
I almost forgot about this one. Atlas Middlesex Manufacturing is another old time brick factory. I just finished kitbashing it into a paint factory.
https://www.walthers.com/middlesex-manufacturing-co-kit-15-x-5-1-2-quot-38-1-x-14cm
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Thanks for all the other suggestions and the pictures.
hon30critterI looked at the Walthers Valley Cement. ... it is too big to fit in any of our available industrial spaces
I agree that is is a large kit; it the quarry, and rock crusher dominate the end of the pennsula on the Boothbay layout. IN our case it was 'a given' in that we are modeling Maine coast railroading and the real plant is in Thomston just up the Rockland Branch tracks from us.
That being said, the Medusa Cement silos do have a much more modest footprint. On my layout, I combined it with a Faller ready mix plant to make it a more interesting scene
https://www.walthers.com/cement-works-kit-8-1-8-x-3-1-2-x-8-7-8-quot-20-7-x-9-x-22-5cm
The Walthers Red Wing Milling kit is a fairly typical all concrete building that asks to be kitbashed. Centennial Mills is a 'thin profile' version of the same plant.
https://www.walthers.com/red-wing-milling-co-kit-8-x-11-x-10-3-8-quot-20-3-x-28-x-26-4cm
https://www.walthers.com/centennial-mills-background-building-kit-10-3-16-x-1-15-16-x-8-7-16-quot-25-4-x-4-8-x-21cm
On my layout, I found Centennial includes a back wall, so I kitbashed it to make it wider and notched back to accomodate some storage bins. It is the center of this image. I modeled it as a bakery
Low relief Heritage Furniture is to the left of the bakery, and it's full size companion Hardwood Furniture are more fancy factory buildingshttps://www.walthers.com/heritage-furniture-background-building-kit-back-wall-11-3-8-x-4-3-4-x-8-15-16-quot-28-4-x-11-8-x-22-3cm
https://www.walthers.com/hardwood-furniture-company-kit-11-7-8-x-10-5-8-x-8-7-8-quot-23-5-x-29-5-x-22-5cm
I have not built one, but the City Classics Smallman Street Warehouse is a typical brick structure and is a good candidate for kitbashing. They offer a 2 story addition and printed acetate windows.https://www.walthers.com/smallman-street-warehouse-kit-8-1-2-x-6-x-6-quot-21-6-x-15-2-x-15-2cm
https://www.walthers.com/two-story-add-on-kit-for-smallman-street-warehouse-195-103-sold-separately
https://www.walthers.com/factory-windows-pkg-10-for-195-103-smallman-street-warehouse-sold-separately?ref=1
ndbprr The empties from a distribution center would go to a yard where off line cars would be sent away while on line cars can be redisributed to on line industries as needed. Yard masters were known to hoard cars they knew would be in demand in a short time. So that empty box routing can be to a yard so it can be cleaned if needed and the reciever paperwork finished and then routed to an industry when the next local drops off the next train of cars to be switched
The empties from a distribution center would go to a yard where off line cars would be sent away while on line cars can be redisributed to on line industries as needed. Yard masters were known to hoard cars they knew would be in demand in a short time. So that empty box routing can be to a yard so it can be cleaned if needed and the reciever paperwork finished and then routed to an industry when the next local drops off the next train of cars to be switched
A freight agent can elect to load a foreign road car if the car routing is toward the home road. Exception to the rule Railbox,IPD boxcar or any lease car can be loaded "Next Road,Any Road".
Empty home road cars are assign to various terminals to ensure there is enough empties on hand.
Exception to the rule home and foreign road cars assign to pool service must be return to that pool.
When I worked on the PRR there was a Fisher Body and a Westinghouse pool of boxcars..
BRAKIEHow's the membership feel about buildings along the backdrop?
Hi again Larry:
Background buildings have been part of the plan from day 1. We have plenty of space for them along the north and west walls. I have a bunch of Walthers kits that are designed as background buildings, and I have several full building kits that could be kitbashed into some pretty large background buildings as well. The buildings are all pretty generic so we could label them for whatever industries we want that will tie in with our other major industrial sites. For example, I have two Atlas Middlesex Manufacturing kits that could be made into an approx. 80" four storey background building, or a 40" eight storey background building, or points in between.
I'm really looking forward to teaching the gang to kitbash all of this stuff, and maybe even build some of it myself.
Thanks very much for your input!
Dave,It's me again with some easy industries that requires little space..
Kroger bakery car loads of flour,sugar and corn starch. The Kroger bakery in Columbus was a long brick building on the N&W..This could be along the backdrop.DPM walls could be used. I can still recall the smell of baked goods especially the bread.
G.P Lloyd Ploymers In plastic pellets..Walthers plastic pellet storage silo could be used with a Pikestuff Tri-star Industries.
Mid States Propane A Walthers Central Gas & Supply can be used.
Williams & Sons Manufacturing Walthers Heritage Furniture could.
How's the membership feel about buildings along the backdrop?
Think industries that use rail cars, local lumber, building supply company, a larger lumber distribution company, think Weyerhaeuser, they had one up here, lots of loaded lumber racks in, a paper recycler gets paper by truck through local pick up and shreds, bails and ships it out, a wood products company like celotex, local loggers trucked in pulp wood, company ground it, steam cooked it, pressed board out, plus an occasional tank car of chemicals in, a larger print company would take boxcars of paper in, may ship books by rail, but may send waste paper back to mill, a large grocery warehouse, A&P, for example took lots of boxcars of products. Don't forget the local feed and farm supply, feed in and some sold farm equipment, so an occasional flat of tractors. Every industry takes loads in, more than than ship out, that's the way it's been since WW 2. But that's still a railroad operation, club or not.
Hi George:
I looked at the Walthers Valley Cement. I found there to be two problems with it. First, it is too big to fit in any of our available industrial spaces if the kit was built as intended. Could be kit bashing fodder though. The second problem is that most of the buildings in the kit are corrugated steel. Here we go again. More corrugated steel buildings. I know it is realistic, but as I said before, having too many corrugated steel structures on the layout would be pretty boring IMHO. I'm trying to follow the spirit of Brakie's suggestion that we start to think outside the box. In this case, it is a corrugated steel box.
As I mentioned earlier, we will do an icing platform. We will also do a couple of freight houses, although the REA logo is a nogo in Canada.
Thanks for the suggestions.
If yuo have the space, Walthers Valley Cement has a lot of loads. Limestone, aggregate, and fuel for the kiln coning in and Portland cement and agricultural lime going out. This is the one with added structures on Bootbay Railway Village
Then add Medusa Cement at another location to receive cementhttps://www.walthers.com/medusa-cement-company-kit-9-x-7-x-11-quot-22-5-x-17-5-x-27-5cm?ref=1
The Walthers Icing Platform is good foir the steam era, shown here just after installation
Also the Walthers freight warehouse that I built as REA
BigDaddyYou are Canadian right? I have one word, or 2 letters VO
Hi Henry:
Personally I'm a Wisers guy
SouthgateIs there a possibility on your layout for rail to ocean going or great lakes ships? Or barges?(Chips, ores, petroleum products, scrap iron...) Dan Add Quote to your Post
Hi Dan,
What we didn't built into the initial plan is hidden staging so for the present we can't run a train 'off' the layout. Initially we didn't think there would be enough space under the layout for staging, but after we sorted through all the junk that the club had acquired over the years we realized that there is tons of open space so staging is a very real possibility. That would allow us to do a lot more with imaginary destinations.
Graham LineThat's fine if that's what your bunch wants to do. But: then you're modeling the same railroad as 90% of the modelers out there. At one time there was a viable, functional railroad in this Barrie/Allandale waterfront that you mention. Why not do a little work with the picture files at the library and the historical society, talk to some old timers, and see if you can bring this to life. No one else will be modeling it.
Hi Graham Line:
That is exactly what we started out to do. The club had discussed modeling the Barrie waterfront for years. There was even some talk about the club being able to get space in the beautifully restored Allandale Station, and we figured that it would help our case a lot if we were modelling the Barrie waterfront. We have abandoned the idea of getting into the Allandale Station because it currently sits in limbo. The building is currently not occupied because there is still a ton of contaminated soil around it and nobody wants to pay the bill to have it removed. Barrie already has several million dollars invested in the restoration and the current attitude is that they don't want to spend any more.
Then last summer we found a new clubhouse at a price we could afford. Unfortunately the space is limited. We developed a plan that was fairly representative of the Barrie waterfront in its' heyday. The main problem with the plan was that in order to fit even a small number of the key structures into the available space we ended up with very narrow aisles. In a home layout situation you can get away with 30" aisles, but when you are in a club situation with 12 - 15 people in the room it just doesn't work. We had suffered that already! Getting past another operator at the old clubhouse was a very intimate experience! In fact it was just plain unworkable . We vowed that the aisles in the new layout would allow people to move around comfortably.
We also had some fairly extensive discussions with the members talking about what industries they wanted. Despite the fact that almost everyone wanted to model the Allandale Station the rest of the Barrie theme wasn't very high up the list, so we decided to model a more generic layout. Things like tanneries would represent the Barrie waterfront. I believe there were two of them, both quite large. We have a fairly large yard and service area too, which Barrie had as well.
You might ask why I started this thread if we already had some input from the members about what they wanted to model. Unfortunately the suggestions from the club members lacked the depth that I am getting from the responses to this thread. The club talked about having related industries but the discussion didn't go very far, and I don't personally have the detailed knowledge to identify all the various commodities that would go in and out of an industry. The paper mill suggestions are a prime example. I never would have clicked on the fact that fine paper requires clay etc. etc. The slaughter house theme is also full of possible spin offs, as are many of the other industries suggested.
Many of the ideas for the entire layout construction process and the decisions we have made have come from your input on the forums. Thanks for that.
SouthgateTransition period mills and earlier shipped a lot of lumber in boxcars. Modern day lumber shipping uses open spine cars. In
Dan, Lumber is still shipped in 50' double door boxcars as well as bulkhead flat cars.
You are Canadian right? I have one word, or 2 letters VO
Incoming grains in hoppers, bottles and boxes coming and going in box cars, plus an occassional tank car for my private stock
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My computer won't let me add a quote, but Steven's idea about industries that receive by truck and ship out by rail is especially appropriate in the lumber industry. As forests receded further from the mills, it became harder to ship logs in by rail. Trucks could go anywhere.
Transition period mills and earlier shipped a lot of lumber in boxcars. Modern day lumber shipping uses open spine cars. In the '60s, more sawmill wood scrap began to be chipped rather than burned, thus another possibility for chip cars. It would take a pretty large mill though to justify railroad chip shipping from the mill itself.
Chip transfer from truck to rail is another truck-in, rail-out possibility. Size of chip pile is optional. How much scratchbuilding skill would a chip pile need?
Is there a possibility on your layout for rail to ocean going or great lakes ships? Or barges?(Chips, ores, petroleum products, scrap iron...) Dan
I'm a little late to this thread, but HOn3critter made a statement I find a little curious. He said "Alas, after playing with the track plan for several months, the layout room just doesn't have the space necessary to model the tanneries and freight houses that would represent the Barrie waterfront. We will do the Allandale Station, but otherwise we have chosen to model a more generic layout (my emphasis) that will allow us to have more operating options including a large yard, a large service area with all the essential elements, and several 'industrial' areas which may become industries and/or towns with passenger stations etc."
That's fine if that's what your bunch wants to do. But: then you're modeling the same railroad as 90% of the modelers out there. At one time there was a viable, functional railroad in this Barrie/Allandale waterfront that you mention. Why not do a little work with the picture files at the library and the historical society, talk to some old timers, and see if you can bring this to life. No one else will be modeling it.
Steven OtteOn an aside note... can you think of industries that did the opposite? Receive by truck, ship by rail? Transloading warehouses, grain elevators, produce packing houses, coal truck dumps, some sawmills... any others?
Capitol Block Company shipped 40' boxcars of cinder blocksl material was purchase locally.
Valley Recyclers shipped stripped car and truck engine blocks in 50' gons.
Those crushed glass companies I spoke of earlier ships in 2 bay covered hoppers.
Westinghouse shipped appliances from their warehouse.The appliances was trucked to the warehouse from the main plant.
Daugherty Automotive in gons out crushed vehicles.
How about a company that makes rail cars, like Budd. Or one that makes coal cars.