I have no issues with RTR for reasons that that several have noted. The only reason I shy away from RTR buildings is color. I got the Cornerstone Golden Valley Freight House built up and the ochre color just seemed out of place on my layout. I donated it to my club and bought the kit.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
BRAKIE Jim, There's a lot of season modelers that still uses Athearn and Roundhouse cars simply because they see no need to run out and buy the newer cars and locomotives.
Jim, There's a lot of season modelers that still uses Athearn and Roundhouse cars simply because they see no need to run out and buy the newer cars and locomotives.
I am fully aware of that from reading many posts by such modelers here over the past 10 years.
Rather, I was addressing young NWP's statements about RTR stuff being for beginners. That was more the case 20 or more years ago, but not so much now.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
doctorwayne If folks nowadays want instant gratification, r-t-r is their answer. I don't have a problem with that - have bought some myself.However, I find there's something even nicer about the gratification of doing it yourself, and it seems to last longer, too. My time is just as valuable as anybody else's, and I don't feel that mine is being wasted. Your results may vary. Wayne
If folks nowadays want instant gratification, r-t-r is their answer. I don't have a problem with that - have bought some myself.However, I find there's something even nicer about the gratification of doing it yourself, and it seems to last longer, too.
My time is just as valuable as anybody else's, and I don't feel that mine is being wasted. Your results may vary.
Wayne
Instant gratification has very negative connotation attatched to it and is probably a bad term toward many of us who buy RTR items. The issue for many of us is not instant gratification but lack of time necessary to build a good sized fleet of freight cars and engines to operate a sizable layout.
My time is valuable too, but I have a life and a wife who doesn't allow me much time for the hobby. Past four years I was at least able to work 4 ten hour days so I had a day all to myself to work on the layout I was building. Now I'm in a new job back to 5 days and too much on the hunny do list that I honestly don't know how I'm going to build the next one, let alone many kits to run on it. Perhaps people who have time, or wives who tolerate them disappearing into the basement a lot more, should be more understanding of those who can't. And especially those who have kids still in the house.
Moral of the story, our results do vary. Thanks for your patience and understanding.
riogrande5761Perhaps people who have time, or wives who tolerate them disappearing into the basement a lot more, should be more understanding of those who can't. And especially those who have kids still in the house.
There was a period of about 10-12 years when my 3 sons were growing up where I did nothing on a layout. But those were good years and I wouldn't trade them in. The layout was still there when they were grown.
Paul
riogrande5761Perhaps people who have time, or wives who tolerate them disappearing into the basement a lot more, should be more understanding of those who can't.
My wife took over my layout space and I couldn't work on a layout for 9 years. That was back when I could see itty bitty parts. Do it any way you want/can.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Things change. Track is a good example. When I started in model railroading c.1971, "real" or "serious" model railroads were built with hand-laid track (wood ties and code 100 nickel-silver rail). Someone might use flex-track on some storage tracks or maybe (MAYBE) in hidden track like a long tunnel, but never on the layout per se. Flex-track was basically for kids / beginners, and was looked at as pretty much being like sectional track (like Atlas Snap-track)... which was looked at as not being much better than 3-ties per section Lionel O-27 track.
In recent years, there's still a few hand-layers, but most "real" or "serious" modellers use flex-track on cork roadbed. People who use 'click track' from Kato or Bachmann are looked down on like the flex-trackers were years back. My guess would be 20-30 years from now, most layouts will use 'click track' and flex-track will be only held onto by a few old heads who want to do it the old (hard) way.
You could make the same point re plastic freight and passenger cars vs. plastic kits, or plastic vs. wood building kits, etc.
riogrande5761Rather, I was addressing young NWP's statements about RTR stuff being for beginners. That was more the case 20 or more years ago, but not so much now.
Jim,My Grandson cut his modeling teeth with Grandpa's Athearn and Roundhouse now,he wants nothing to do with "fobbie models" including inheriting mine. My Brother in law as a newb went with DCC,DCC/Sound and the higher end locomotives and cars only because they looked more realistic.
IMHO the newb should go with the models that fits his billfold.
Of course a lot of modelers got champagne taste with a beer pocket book only because they are mislead by believing they can only enjoy the hobby by buying the higher end models...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
People have always had other things to do besides modeling railroads. Generations past most likely had LESS time to devote to modeling, and yet they were able to creat scenery, structures, locomotives, and rolling stock from scratch or from crude kits.
I enjoy creating my layout one piece at a time, and wouldn't consider buying pre-built structures. I can create something equal to or much better than any pre-built piece for a fraction of the cost, so I choose to build my own. Others want to be able to plop something down on their layout and that's fine for them. They can do what they wish with their money and their railroad.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
My satisfaction with the structures on my layout comes from building them myself and customizing each one to make it "mine." I am not particularly cost-conscious.
When I thumb through my MR magazine, I might notice a nice-looking building. Then I see that it's a built-up, and turn the page. If Menard's would put out kits, even at the same price as their built-ups, I would be more likely to buy one. It's the same with the Woodland Scenics built-ups. I look at the model, and think about how difficult it would be to repaint it, add an interior and light it up. Let me see what's on the next page.
My Branchline Trains Laser Kits are among the most expensive models on my layout, certainly considering the square footage. They are truly eye-catching models and for me, worth the price.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I'll be honest, price is a huge factor for me. I'm just not willing to pay much for things. Built ups are very expensive for what they are, and there is no creative satisfaction associated with them.
Jumijo I'll be honest, price is a huge factor for me. I'm just not willing to pay much for things. Built ups are very expensive for what they are, and there is no creative satisfaction associated with them.
Price is a factor for many of us to be fair, but we all have our poison. For me, many of the fine accurate models from Moloco, Tangent, ExactRail, Intermountain and Genesis are a big draw because I want to model trains that look like real freight trains for my late 1970's bridge route. I get my creative satisfaction in layout design and building. As always YMMV and it does.
If building kits is important, the above companies do offer them, as well as the many lower end kits out there from Athearn, MDC and Accurail, mainly on the secondary market.
Although I enjoy building, I don't disparage anyone for doing something different. The point of the hobby is to enjoy what you are doing.
JumijoAlthough I enjoy building, I don't disparage anyone for doing something different. The point of the hobby is to enjoy what you are doing.
I think that's the best way to approach the hobby. We all have different interests. My approach has been to try my hand at a lot of different things. That's why I've built plastic kits, craftsman kits and bought materials for scratchbuilding. I enjoy building rolling stock, whether it's a simple model from Accurail or a elaborate Tichy flat car with brake detail and metal grabs requiring tiny drill holes, but adding a fine RTR model brings a smile to my face as well. My working crossing gates and flashers were a great multi-disciplinary project from kit-building the crossbucks and flashers to assembling the mechanical linkages to wiring the sensors and control module. Every step was a learning process and a result to be proud of in the end.
That's why we call it the World's Greatest Hobby.
Howard,
As Byron suggested, my post from the previous thread, with a few edits:
I don't understand why you, or anyone else see this question as "either/or".
I have lots of plastic cars on my layout, from simple blue box Athearn cars with a little (very little) weathering, as well as todays high end, high detail wonders.
I also have wood and metal kits dating back to my childhood, I started building Silver Streak kits in my very early teens.
I still build kits of every skill level - BUT, I don't have the kind of time you do, and I'm building a layout of good size, not as big as yours, but still good size, 1000 sq ft, 8 scale miles of mainline.
And, simply put, I want to reach a specific level of completeness in a reasonable time frame.
But more importantly, the idea of the craftsman side of this hobby has been talked about endlessly on here. Many simply admit they lack the skills needed to build advanced, or even intermediate level kits, madeup of any material, wood or otherwise. And many say they have no interest in learning those skills.
And respectfully, I do see a great iorny in your comments. You are a craftsman of the highest order in this hobby, no question. I have seen your layout in person, and met you several times, thought you may not remember. Your scenery and structure skills are beyond top shelf, as are your rolling stock building skills.
Yet, you remain a promoter of brass locos? What is a brass loco? A RTR model of the highest skill and detail level. Not unlike a Kadee box car or hopper, or an Intermountain RTR piece...........to a guy who can't build a resin or wood kit.
RTR allows me to use my modeling skills where it will pay off the most in completing the "whole picture" the layout is supposed to represent.
Anyway, I'm still happy with a mix of all sources of rolling stock on my layout......
As for built up structures, well I have not gone that way yet, but I'm not ruling them out. I would consider some of what I have seen out there if they fit my needs.
Sheldon
Sheldon.
Thanks for kind words about my skills although I think I'm average at best.
Brass locos and RTR??? You bet they are RTR as are just about every locomotive being offered today. There are loco kits and some folks do scratch their power, but I feel a brass loco (and others too) are exceptions. Still many after market things happen to locos such as more detail, changing details, custom painting, weathering, and electronics.
Some folks look at me as a brute......by only allowing items built by myself to adorn my pike. Not so, and you may remember that there are several structures built by others, and you betcha.....two ready to plant buildings....one by Woodland Scenics, and the other by Walthers. I do enjoy immensely building structures and rolling stock, but when I find something that fills a needed spot well, I'll purchase it. Very few model rails can do it all. John Glaab of Peach Creek Shops (also a once brassaholic) put the big picture quite elegantly...." A model railroader should be like an orchestra or band leader...not knowing how to play all of the instruments, but knowing how to put the sound together". I thought these words were excellent and on a par with my favorite saying from John Allen...No matter how strange or bizzare your model or theme may seem.....rest assured that there was once a prototype somewhere". My dad also had a saying that was excellent in regards to the size of a layout, but I can not repeat it in fear of being tossed off this venue.
HZ
According to a letter in the April 1947 "Railroad Model Craftsman," if you can't drill and tap holes in a variety of metals, you aren't a real model railroader.In the 1951 "Model Railroader" "Tuxedo Junction," you aren't a real model railroader unless you scratchbuild your own steam locomotive frames.Et flipping cetera.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
My layout contains kits and RTR. I am using more RTR these days as arthritis in my hands make building kits a real chore.
We have always lived in the best of times for modelers. In the 1950's, we had brass rail, easy kits, and smaller motors. Things got vastly better by the 90's, and now we have accurate and thorough information as well as DCC, better adhesives, better motors.
Nowadays, I buy and use the fine Kadee cars where I can. I can't build a more accurate boxcar on my wiorkbench than Kadee builds in their factory. I can't build a better AAR Alternatre Standard offset hopper than Intermountain builds. But frankly, a lot of Kadee cars are too modern for my modeling period. I have to fill in the gaps with kits, kitbashes, or scratchbuilt items if I want to have them at all, and no matter how many things the manufacturers give us, there will always be things they won't give us.
So I take advantage of the best I can afford of the manufacturers' offerings, and fill in the gaps with whatever I have to build myself because the manufacturers didn't provide it. I build kits. I scratchbuild, often from drawings I have made myself. I crosskit. I modify R-T-R items. I do what I have to.
This applies to cars, structures, or what have you.
If Howard wants a model of Erie's Mill Rift Bridge, or Starrrucca Viaduct, he can't trot up to Main Line Hobby and pluck one off the shelf, and he might not even want to. I think I have a strong enough sense of his priorities to say that he would love it even more if he could point to a completed model of one of those bridges and say "I built that!"
Then he can run his mixed train of kit-built, scratchbuilt, and factory-produced freight cars over it without apology to anybody.
Tom