Thank you Tom. I apologize for offending you guys...
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
I was not offended. I offer my advice and suggestions, people can take or leave them. I've been participating in online forums since before there was an internet - it's no skin off my back. I offer my suggestions based on my own experience and knowledge, depending on what it is it may be something I have first hand experience in, or things I've learned through consumption of vast amounts of written material. If I were easily offended I would have been gone long ago.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NWP SWPbubble burst picture
Bubble burst? Oh, I wondered what that was.
NWP SWPoffended me
I am reluctant to comment. Unfortunately that has not stopped me before. People these days seem to be very easily "offended". I think that many of us need to develop a little thicker skin, especially high school seniors.
NWP SWPremember MILW only scrapped the Bipolars because the milwaukee shops did not rebuild the units properly
Doesn't matter. Bi-polar motors are inneficent and only remained in use because the electricity was relatively cheap. For a long-haul diesel as you are proposing, engineers in the real world would have used efficient traction motors.
Build whatever you want ... which is what everyone is telling you. And I am telling you that too.
But if you make unrealistic engineering choices in your concept, the result will be unrealistic. If that doesn't matter to you, then all good. Seems silly to take it personally when people are just giving you facts.
Have you ever built any railroad models from kits? Kitbashed or scratchbuilt anything? This is a pretty heavy subject for a first ever modeling project.
CC
So could I use the sideframes from the Bipolar but with better traction motors?
NWP SWPSo could I use the sideframes from the Bipolar but with better traction motors?
Probably not in real life. Do whatever you want for your model.
A word of friendly, constructive advice for the OP........
Actually, that is what you have already been given on your various threads. The folks here are thrilled to see a young person interested in the hobby and obviously have gone out of their way to encourage you - or to point out pitfalls in your many plans. I urge you to pay attention to them and value it accordingly.
The thing about doing a project - whatever it is - is to start out in "beginner" stages and work your way to bigger and more difficult projects as your skills and experience and wallet dictate.
Those of us that have been around for awhile have seen others come into the Forum with skyhigh aspirations, and they solicit advice and opinions on their proposed works. But then, after the verbiage wears thin, they run off........
Lets hope that won't be the case with you, for the hobby can really use some young, fresh, and ambitious blood...........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Again, reality, which is not necessary for your model.
There weren't many one of a kind locomotives in the diesel era. If you look at something like the UP Gas Turbines, they used trucks similar or identical to the the ones used on diesels running at the same time. Instead of a D truck, they used B+B with a span bolster in the early units (3 axle trucks in the last units).
Using something that exists in HO already be easier than trying to get custom sideframes made.
Ok try this one on for size... the NWP-SWP System had an electrified zone that was becoming underrated for traffic demands therefore the system rebuilt Bipolars with diesel prime movers to assist the caternary power supply and to allow the units to operate outside the electrified zone...
Now would FM opposed piston prime movers be better than the Alcos?
A plausable concept. And one used around New York City even today. So you have almost 100 years of designs to study. FM powerplants. Were definitely higher horsepower than anything of thier time. Except they were a bear to work on. Now if yours over comes those maintanace issues. Study the FM design and maintanace issue to see if what exterior changes would be made to over come them. They also had high fuel efficiency. Think of the fuel savings verse power out put they could do today
As for alco. There most reliable design is the 251 series. That is 50's. Into 60's. Though. Alcos had a simpler easy to work on design. Although failure of some component was always a rule. They kept on running. On the road temp fixes usually could be done to get the train in.
There are some basics to help figure out which will work I do appologize for repeating anything you already know
Wolfie
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Was your design going to be an electric with a diesel motor?
You mentioned pantographs.
Yes it will be an electric that has diesel prime movers for extra power and operations beyond the electrified zone...
Something to consider is that while the FM prime movers are shorter than many, they are a lot taller - look at how tall a Trainmaster is. So while you may get 2 of them in the length of those big electrics, for 4800HP, they are far taller than would fit under the rounded end hoods, or even under an Alco PB hood.
Maybe they had a couple of wrecked Trainmasters so parts of their shells were used to form the body to enclose the FM prime movers.
And neither the FMs or Alcos could be set up side by side in the unit right?
1) Build whatever you want
2) What is the last model you have built? Have you ever built an Accurail or Blue Box kit (these are the very basic starting points)? This is a big undertaking and without the experience and tools that come from building simpler projects, there's no point in talking about this.
3) From an engineering reality standpoint, this still does not make sense. Don't read any further if you don't care. See #1 above.
While there have been some combination electric/diesel engines like the FL-9, there are big differences in them from what you are proposing. First, they are either/or (electric power or diesel, not both simultaneously). Second, they use traction motors, not inefficient bi-polars. Third, they used voltages that are the same or nearly the same. The FL-9 traction motors run on 600 volts from the diesel generators and 660 volts from the third rail. Bi-polars ran on 11,000 volts from the overhead. A DC generator for 11,000 volts that could generate enough amps would be huge and heavy. In real life, separate diesel helpers were used with electric locomotives when needed.
4) Good luck ... I’ll check back in if you actually get started. Addressing #2 would be a good reality check for you and the poeple trying to help you.
In what alternate reality did any Milwaukee electric run on 11 kV AC?
The Bipolars (and for that matter all of MILWs electrics) did NOT run on 11,000 volts they ran on 3,000 volts DC. The MILW received 100,000 volts AC at the convertor substations from power plants which was ran through transformers down to run the motor generators which basically were big AC motors turning DC generators which put out the 3000 volt DC power which ran the locomotives... this became troublesome in later years because of greater power demands that the substations could not support...
Also I have built many a Accurail kit...
My mistake. MILW was 3000V DC. I was thinking of the Pennsy 11KV DC. I should have looked it up. I didn't say AC.
Still, the mis-match in voltages between 3000V and about 600V is an engineering issue that means the OPs project does not seem practical.
Edit ... but that doesn't matter to him, apparently, so I shouldn't care either.
NWP SWP Also I have built many a Accurail kit...
And what other kitbashing/scratchbuilding?
Any of the larger prime movers are too big to place in a standard clearance carbody side by side. Baldwin DID do something like that with their experimental diesel, designed to hold 8 prime movers, but they were small, 750HP each, and they were arranged side by side but facing opposite ways (the generator is wider than the crankcase), to get them as close together as possible - the engine and generator on one side was arranged witht he generator facing forward, the one next to it was offset to the rear and arranged with the generator facing the rear. Clearance between the prime movers was not a concern since the design was much like the modern day Genset locos - each "power unit" consisting of the diesel and attacheched generator, was designed to be quickly removed via a roof hatch and the idea was to have a few spares so the loco could be placed back into service immediately while the faulty unit was repaired outside of the carbody.
It was only ever fitted with 4 of the 8 engines, then was scrapped and the running gear re-used for Centipede demonstrator 6000 (hmm, now that sounds familiar..). It was a 2+D-D+2 wheel arrangement.
NWP SWPAlso I have built many a Accurail kit...
So you've assembled a lot more kits than those two you put together a few months ago?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The word of the day is bona fides. If you don't have some you can't run in the tall grass with the big dogs. And l'll add two more words for anyone interested in writing articles: syntax and diction.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
And in the words of Teddy Roosevelt "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you'll go far!
Does anyone have a good explanation for the "prototype" of my creation? Seems I have run out of ideas...
I have put together about 5 or 6 Accurail kits varying in types...
NWP SWP Does anyone have a good explanation for the "prototype" of my creation? Seems I have run out of ideas...
Alton Junction
Why pray tell do you suggest I quit???
I merely have asked those who tell me that my previous explanations don't make sense so I am asking them what they think the explanation should be...
Mainly because it is well outside your realm of experience, and it would be a challenge even for a pro.
And to what end even if you succeeded in building such a monstrosity?
Sell it on eBay?
I would use it???
Do you have a layout?