Howdy I'm in the planning stages of my big boxcab diesel "Big John" and I have figured out the drive gear but I need side frames, I am trying to find some early examples of B and D trucks in HO... I know that the MILW Bipolars have D trucks in the middle and NYC T2s have B trucks both are old fashioned electric trucks... The problem is finding them in HO scale I know MTH has a Bipolar but I know not of any T2s other than brass... I considered using some GP40X Flexicoil B trucks and some DDA40X Flexicoil D trucks and just say that the locomotive received upgraded running gear over the years...
Or would someone out there with 3d printing and design skills like to take on this project? I would need two Bipolar style D truck sideframes and four B truck sideframes that look like the Bipolar Ds without the two center axles... I'd like to stay on a budget but would like detail comparable to a reasonable quality RTR diesel out there...
The locomotive is going to have teo Trainmaster style decks that run half the length of the locomotive each, each "deck" or box will contain two motors each driving two Athearn B trucks the D truck sideframes will be glued to the two B trucks that way gearing is uniform...
I look forward to you replies...
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
I was trying to find an MTH Bi-polar or Little Joe for a friend a while back. They're pretty scarce, pretty expensive and I certainly wouldn't want to be hacking one up to make a kit-bash fantasy locomotive. But that's me.
I don't know your budget for this project but for economy's sake maybe look for a couple of Bachmann GG1s (2-C+C-2) and you could probably splice those cast truck frames into Ds or Es or even Fs if you desire. The CUT P1a uses a very similar frame and I believe the New Haven had some juice-jacks using them as well.
Conversely, you could start with a Broadway Limited Baldwin DR-12-8-1500/2 (Centipede; 2-D+D-2). These were selling pretty reasonably, especially the Seaboard ones. Those may give you a good starting point for a drive-line.
I have a pair and on my 32" curves they look pretty "Bent" trying to negotiate a curve that tight. Something to keep in mind.
Again, I'm suggesting either one of these because of their availability and somewhat reasonable cost. I've seen both in closeout sales at Trainworld, MB Klein and Walthers.
Good Luck, Ed
I started a project like that several years ago. Never finished it. Perhaps one of these days.
I'm using an Alco PA "B" unit and units trucks on a reworked PA frame to bring the trucks closer together.
If you wanted to use the side frames from a GG-1 and make them "D" trucks consider splicing the side frames for the configurstion you want to make a master and then cast them in resin. Could be a whole new learning experince in making your own parts.
Bernd
New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds
protolancer(at)kingstonemodelworks(dot)com
NWP SWPOr would someone out there with 3d printing and design skills like to take on this project?
Actually, you might find designing such a truck to be an interesting experience.
You can use free software, such as this: https://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-pro/new-in-2018
You don't need the pro version, the free download does all you need.
Once you get the hang of the program, go here: https://www.shapeways.com/
and look at the requirements for the different materials they offer.
You might want to start with a manufactured truck to simplify the engineering problems of creating a drivetrain. That will give you the critical dimensions needed to design your sideframes.
Have fun!
Eric
North West Short Line might have some parts you need.
I like the look of the CUT T3 or MILW Bipolar sideframes so I'll see if I can order a set from MTH and use that for the new ones... For the driveline I'm going to take two motors both with dual flywheels and connect two Athearn B trucks to each motor and the two center trucks will be attached to each other to make a D truck and the appropriate sideframes go on that...
And far as CAD goes 1 my computer is old and in the shop and the guy says that I have to be very careful because I had an all out malware infestation even with one of the prominent anti virus softwares running... 2 I am terrible at using computers for drawing and such so if someone more inclined could you give me some pointers? Thanks...
Here's the sideframes I'm looking for:
Here's the locomotive I want the body to look like...
Here's a few possible body shells I can modify...
I'll post a rudimentary drawing in a bit...
In the 1980's I built a N scale model using an Arnold GG1 and a scratch built plastic body.
I did another loco with full length body made from two 70's Atlas F7 bodied back to back to resemble a GN W1 loco.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Found this on E-bay it a use one but if anyone is looking for a Bi-Polar here is the link
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/MTH-PREMIER-20-5511-1-MILWAUKEE-ROAD-MR-E-2-BIPOLAR-ELECTRIC-w-PS-2-0/372170696029?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dd7bee5b87df54847a5ca195d790b03e2%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D272956446325&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%253Ac6d9841c-e790-11e7-b70b-74dbd180dbe9%257Cparentrq%253A81667c2d1600aa47a5178d5fffe963bd%257Ciid%253A1
MheetuFound this on E-bay it a use one but if anyone is looking for a Bi-Polar here is the link
Judging by the belly-up photo it looks like this is a three-rail Lionel type?
BayGrab5 by Edmund, on Flickr
However, It seems like $350 is pretty reasonable for a brass one?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-C-M-St-P-P-MILWAUKEE-ROAD-BI-POLAR-CLASS-EP-2-GEARLESS-ELECTRIC/253312907794?hash=item3afaa03a12:g:n4gAAOSwm2xZl6BN
Regards, Ed
For the front of the body I might use something like these:
gmpullman oops didn't see that Mheetu Found this on E-bay it a use one but if anyone is looking for a Bi-Polar here is the link Judging by the belly-up photo it looks like this is a three-rail Lionel type? BayGrab5 by Edmund, on Flickr However, It seems like $350 is pretty reasonable for a brass one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-C-M-St-P-P-MILWAUKEE-ROAD-BI-POLAR-CLASS-EP-2-GEARLESS-ELECTRIC/253312907794?hash=item3afaa03a12:g:n4gAAOSwm2xZl6BN Regards, Ed
oops didn't see that
Mheetu Found this on E-bay it a use one but if anyone is looking for a Bi-Polar here is the link
NWP SWP Here's the sideframes I'm looking for: Here's the locomotive I want the body to look like... Here's a few possible body shells I can modify... I'll post a rudimentary drawing in a bit...
Have you thought about using something that not North American to get the look of the NYC locomotive
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Ho-Gauge-52035-Ef56-Form-The-Primary-Type-Grape-No-2-Sg-Outlet-Chimney-Type/361832692214?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20170831090034%26meid%3D83eb3f3526e14eae8c2dd0ffad8f4815%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D252643108546&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Ho-Gauge-52031-Ef53-Form-Late-Grape-No-2-Tokyo-Engine-Depot-Type/252643108546?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20170831090034%26meid%3D69598a04528f44589e9956f49db4185a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D361832692214&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
MheetuHave you thought about using something that not North American to get the look of the NYC locomotive
I've always liked the look of the Swiss Railways Crocodile!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_(locomotive)
The big Pennsy FF1 was pretty neat, too. I liked anything with that big jack-shaft driving the wheels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Railroad_class_FF1
New Haven had some pretty neat box-cabs, too.
Ed
The Japanese locomotive is a close match... But the price tag isn't...
Here's a New Haven that looks close too...
How hard would it be to bash the front end from styrene? I have two options first is have an almost exact replica of the NYC P-3 cab, second is a cab similar to the New Haven but without the little "brim"...
Have you done ANY kitbashing projects before - i.e. small or large? Or, will this be your first attempt at it?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The Milwaukee Bipolars lasted until about 1962. And were then scrapped.
I wonder what would have happened if someone had bought one at scrap prices and decided to dieselize it. Not as a road engine, but as a heavy switcher--maybe a transfer engine or a hump loco.
I see by a drawing that there were single axle lead trucks. Not necessary on a switcher. So then the arrangement would be B-D-D-B. Hmmmmm.....
If I needed another project (and I DO, you know), this one would be a fun free-lance.
One thing: I'd try very hard to make the body NOT look like I had bought an off-the-shelf shell and fiddled with it. I would want it to look "homemade" (which it would have been). There'd be a lot more scratchbuilding than kitbashing.
Well I was racking my brain trying to figure out how to make the cab, then it hit me, I could cut some roof off an Alco PA and make that the front of the cab! Ed that sounds like an interesting kitbash project...
Is it REALLY going to be B-D-B + B-D-B, or will it be 2-D-2 + 2-D-2, or 2-D-B + B-D-2, or some other possibility?16 powered axles seems pretty ambitious.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Yes there will be that many powered axles... I'm going to get two Trainmasters and cut off the hood and cab, put the two motors inside each and put two B trucks on each motor and the two middle B trucks will be attached together to make a D truck... then the boxcab body goes on top of that...
Now here's another choice for the body, do I make the body extend to the ends of the locomotive like a Milwaukee Road boxcab? Or do I give it a little porch like an NYC R motor? Or a big porch like a P motor? Decisions, decisions, decisions...
One answer is build it with the big porch out front but the back extends to the end of the locomotive and build another either A unit identical the the first or build a B unit that has no porches and the body stretches the length of the unit... farther down the road build either two Bs or an A and B to make an A-B-B-A set!
I recommend MUCH more detail 'inagineering' before actually finding donor engines and cutting metal/plastic.
First order of business: you're more or less assuming reuse of bipolar Batchelder drive -- if not, what changes to the older chassis will you need to make for new traction motors or shafting? Not much later (by WWI for sure) there were electrics with similar light built-up frames and twin motor quill drives, far more 'useful' for traction but more difficult to package internal-combustion motors and fuel into...
Then we have the prime mover choice itself, either large medium-speed or relatively smaller multiple engines. A modernized version of the Essl Baldwin is very likely your best bet, and you should read up on that locomotive's history and detail design for options, particularly carbody (the 'modules' included sectional radiators and carbody sections). A repower in the 1950s with Maybach Diesel-hydraulic transmissions, or the Bowes drive from the Kaiser 2000hp passenger unit, might be an interesting historical option (suffering from some of the common-mode issues the Krauss-Maffei Amerika-Loks would have in the '60s). Note that the chief problem with the Essl design, excessive cost to manufacture, would not apply to you ... so you have plausible denial for such a large repower, and you can quote the relative advantages for the Centipede design in Kiefer's 1947 motive power report.
You will be reinventing the problem rhat killed the PRR V1 turbine if you do not provide serious fuel bunkerage - enough for several divisions' range. As on Baldwins all this has to reside above belt level, must not slosh, and any leaks or spills have to be kept scrupulously away from getting into the wiring, including ground returns and reference, or affecting other hoses and plumbing. This represents variable weight, a higher and variable CG, and at least possible issues with slosh at speed (remember the SDP40F water fiasco?)
Now for more fun: even with equalization you want to make some optimization of weight distribution over the powered axles. The porch on a P-motor presupposes two-axle idle lead truck and minimal equipment needing to be packaged in the carbody. I would be tempted to see if a body structure articulated with each truck could be used, as you then have no complex pivots or weight transfer slides over the 'existing' chassis, which may take all the buff/draft forces entirely through the truck arrangement instead of a carbody frame. (In a model this greatly simplifies how your motors or shafting would run, and how to keep adequate flexibility for traction high and nonprototypical overhang on curves low).
While you will not have to do tedioud cross-section weight analysis for balance (as Baldwin would in locomotive design) you will still want a ballpark estimate of weight on each driver pair, and shuffle the mechanical design, perhaps to give an approximation of tapered loading. This in turn will have strong impact on your carbody and subframe arrangement.
I would be remiss if I didn't mention adaptive reuse of other locomotive components from around the general historical time of this repower. The UP second coal turbine used a whole war-weary PA for auxiliary power; EMD F nosed were appended to the one Z-motor PRR didn't re-use; one of the expensive Alco Shark repowers hung around into the '90s ... there would have been a wide range of unfruitful first-generation power 'around' to contribute cheap carbody and other parts. (Personally I'd recommend adapting RF-16s for full carbody, transverse-engine mounting; do you really have the height for OP engine over your legacy chassis?)
If you do the verisimilitude correctly this could be a fun article for MR, or perhaps a 'what-if' for the Classic Trains people...
Geez Stephen, you sure like to fantasize! How many fictional locomotives does your railroad need? :)
Were these units going to be used between Seattle and Chicago? Or Portland to Los Angeles? What was the CEO's decision behind these units, do you pull really long freight trains on your layout?
How many units do you plan on making? I'd love to see your kitbashiing skills, but keep in mind if you want like 15 to 20 of these massive locomotives, it will get very expensive very quickly.
Do you know how to cut open a locomotive and convert it into something else?
Will the units have a cab on both ends or just one end?
And what colors would the units be painted?
I look forward to hearing from you.
My scheme would be that two Bipolars caught fire ruining the body luckily the traction motors and frame survived, the MILW decided to scrap the units as rebuild costs would be far to great... luckily the NWP-SWP "Super Power" division caught these before the scrapper did, having purchased running gear it was time to build a locomotive, they took two Alco PBs fitted them on a common frame then removed the idler axle from the pilots on the Bipolar frame, then they added another pair of B trucks un between the Ds then fabricated a beefier frame that two Bs and a D truck were mounted to creating half the frame, then the PBs were remotored with a power plant out of two RSD-15s which were ordered from Alco, they then were given a simple cab and were then mounted on the half frames.... How's that for an explanation?
Now if I build an A-B-B-A set the B units can be the "tenders" not having cabs and their bodies running the length of the unit...
The units will be in heavy freight service, right now depending on if I go with the A-B-B-A set the A units will have a single cab, If I decide to do stand alone units I'll make it double ended, I'm planning on 2 to 4 units, they will be painted in a livery similar to the ERIE green livery, they will be in system wide service specifically on the 2-4% grades on the several passes on the line...
Also just to add the NYC T motors had a similar porch as the Ps but had all axles powered...
Have you calculated the cost of what you are envisioning? Sounds to me like it's going to be way more expensive for the chassis, shells, and parts than settling for an actual prototype bipolar diesel.
Athearn shells for PBs can be had for under 10 the Trainmasters can be had for about 15, and the Athearn trucks can be found for about 30 so all in all the per unit cost shouldn't be more than 200 right?
What about tools (saw blades, x-acto knives, files, etc) and supplies (styrene sheeting)? Will you be able to use the existing motor couplings to kluge the drive train together? Or, will they all be separate? Will it be DC or DCC? If the latter, how many decoders will it require? And don't forget S&H for any online ordered parts...
Ah, but you have to look at the equalization and pivot arrangements on the T-motors to see why the carbody was arranged that way...
Two 2400hp 251s in a locomotive that size? Wasn't adequate for the UP steam turbine and would not be later. There's a reason all the electric-locomotive developments to speak of after about 1951 were diesel-truck based, even on roads that had very recently built giant locomotives with D truck underframes...
You do not want 'bad' in your locomotive to be something other than a cultural reference. Since this is diesel hp-limited I encourage you to shoot the moon on nominal generator-output hp, far more than a couple of piddly RSDs with all their advantages would otherwise give you.
Who's designing the control gear for this locomotive? The MU arrangements? The dual-power capability? We need to have more fun and less kludging here!
Overmod, sounds like you would be a great help with this project... So what sort of Prime Mover would you suggest? The control gear thing has me confused a bit... it will be MU capable, and I might add pantographs on it for extra power... please keep giving suggestions and advice... thanks!
Here's a rough draft of what formats I have to choose from, the first is like the NYC electrics, the second is is my A-B-B-A idea, and the third is full length body...