I'm curious why we don't see freight car kits of modern variety anymore? It seems like now there could be a market for this with more and more modelers modeling modern lines (Say that ten times fast :P) I was wondering howcome no one has jumped on the bandwagon. I mean it seems perfect, we got more and more modern modelers, and with space and budget concerns a quick generic freight car in their favorite pike could be a hotseller.Which leads me to point number 2. Why not have kits that require no glue or smaller detail parts to get in the way? Modeler's are looking more for the instant gratification (Not saying this is bad), but I feel that may be attributing to rising costs in the hobby, I feel like snap together kits could fix some of that. Why aren't those a thing?
My belief is that it is because the freight car manufacturers all hate me.
.
You will see a lot of people blaming young people that do not want to build kits, but that is nonsense. Have you ever assembled a Gundam kit? Young people put those together all the time, and they are amazing. Younger people still love to build things.
I think it is because, although we do not want to admit it, model railroaders are getting very old, and kits are not selling anymore.
I am stuck with what Tichy, F&C, and a few others offer. None of these are modern.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
David,
I love kits and just completed five Branchline "Blueprint Series" kits over the past 3 weeks, which provided me about a week's worth of entertainment during that time. Nowadays, most folks, however, would rather pay for a preassembled, detailed (RTR) piece of rolling stock or structure than cut & assemble it by hand. That's their choice.
For the manufacturer, it's more cost-effective and a larger profit-margin to have a kits assembled, painted, and detailed overseas. And a lot of the time it can be done better than modelers can do on their own. That said, I still much prefer kits over RTR and purchase those whenever possible and/or needed.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Scale Trains offers a "modern" boxcar kit at $14:https://scaletrains.com/collections/ho-evans-usre-5100-rbl-8-double-plug-door-boxcar
If that's not modern enough, then you're out of luck (unless something from Accurail or Bowser is available). ST is testing the waters with this kit. If sales support it, they'll make more like them.
As for why no one has "jumped on the bandwagon" is that the bandwagon may have a bunch of modern modelers these days, but few of them want to build car kits. There simply isn't enough of them willing to take the time and effort to learn how to build kits. Which relates to your last point: instant gratification. Today, people want to run trains. They'd rather spend an hour running fully built models than an hour building a kit (not to mention the hours and hours it takes learning how to build kits).
We had to build kits back in the old days because that's practically all there was. We were forced to become kit builders or buy expensive custom made models or el cheapo junk models. The middle ground (where things run well but don't cost a fortune) were Athearn BB, MDC/Roundhouse and a few others over the years.
BTW, a snap together kit has been a "thing" in this hobby for decades. See: Athearn, MDC, Accurail, Bowser, etc. Few of their kits ever needed glue, just a screw driver.
DavidH66 I'm curious why we don't see freight car kits of modern variety anymore? It seems like now there could be a market for this with more and more modelers modeling modern lines (Say that ten times fast :P) I was wondering howcome no one has jumped on the bandwagon. I mean it seems perfect, we got more and more modern modelers, and with space and budget concerns a quick generic freight car in their favorite pike could be a hotseller.
I'm curious why we don't see freight car kits of modern variety anymore? It seems like now there could be a market for this with more and more modelers modeling modern lines (Say that ten times fast :P) I was wondering howcome no one has jumped on the bandwagon. I mean it seems perfect, we got more and more modern modelers, and with space and budget concerns a quick generic freight car in their favorite pike could be a hotseller.
It isn't a matter of what types of kits modern vs. older, it's a matter of RTR far outsells kits in real life and manufacturers don't want to continue to make something that doesn't sell well and isn't profitable.
If you don't believe me, here from Athearn's wiki straight from them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athearn
October 16, 2009; Athearn announced that it would stop making so-called "blue-box kits" because of increased manufacturing and labor costs. "Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." Excerpt from an email from Athearn.
October 16, 2009; Athearn announced that it would stop making so-called "blue-box kits" because of increased manufacturing and labor costs.
"Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." Excerpt from an email from Athearn.
Which leads me to point number 2. Why not have kits that require no glue or smaller detail parts to get in the way? Modeler's are looking more for the instant gratification (Not saying this is bad), but I feel that may be attributing to rising costs in the hobby, I feel like snap together kits could fix some of that. Why aren't those a thing?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
DavidH66 I'm curious why we don't see freight car kits of modern variety anymore?
I'm curious why we don't see freight car kits of modern variety anymore?
"Modern" means recent. Recent means a relatively short time in existence. That translates into fewer eras. A car built in 2010 is only good for 17 years, right now. A car that was built in 1980 will span almost twice that. With greater sales, one might think. For example, Atlas introduced a very nice centerbeam flat in 2009. The prototypes were built in 2006, I think. I didn't get very many. And they haven't sold real well. THERE was a modern freight car. At the time.
Plus, over time, there have been fewer road names. And people tend to have road name loyalties. "Oh, I LOVE the Nickel Plate. I must HAVE the Nickel Plate....."
...I feel like snap together kits could fix some of that. Why aren't those a thing?
Because there is no perceived need. RTR cars are selling briskly, as far as I can see. Not-snap-together kits are doing OK--Accurail is around and producing new models on occasion. And there are "real" kits coming and going in the market.
However, you and some others here MAY perceive a need. And you should consider pooling your money and producing some.
In addition, the "finer" you are making a model, the harder it is to keep it snap-together. Little bitty bits come to mind. Having something snap in is a trickier thing than pin-glue. And it gets trickier when it gets smaller.
So snap-together will have to remain crude. Accurail is sorta crude. Are there people who can't handle an Accurail kit????? Can those same people also build a layout??????
Ed
Exactrail, Tangent, Intermountain, Kadee and Atlas still make kits of their cars, the problem is getting your supplier to order them, and for the the importer to get their supplier to properly pick the parts to assemble the cars.
I have found many kits to be missing parts lately and then have to get the said parts from the importer is almost impossible, because the part nos on the instructions and the part itself does not match (especially Athearn).
I still have a bunch of Athearn, Exactrail and Tangent kits to build.
By the way the Kadee kits require no glue to assemble.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
People are willing to spend the extra money to buy RTR rather than save the money and build themselves. That applies to many things these days. If the RTR price were to increase a lot, like maybe labor costs increasing, then kits would be more prevelant.
Also note that most kit manufacturers offer kits from 1970 era and older. They were tooled and molded a long time ago. A kit manufacturer of more modern equipment would have the up front costs of building brand new molds and such, so it would be a bigger risk than just producing a batch of kits themselves from long-ago expensed equipment.
- Douglas
For interest, I just compared Intermountain Caswell gondolas, street priced at $14.99 kit and $22.49 retail. For the kit I need a decal set, $3.19 for Tichy (if correct enough), making the kit total $18.18. Additional to shipping (except at our train show), options such as Kadee couplers and metal wheelsets would, for me, be added, making the total investment higher, with the same $4.31 cents savings.
I doubt for many who like to build kits it's much about saving money, though one can save alot with old BB kits in quantity, for instance. For me, it's the fun of it. The extreme case would be a kit that cost the same as the RTR and building it just for the entertainment value. I probably won't do that, but it's not too far from what I'm actually doing.
I do wish there were more kits available. But I get by pretty well via existing offerings of Bowser, Accurail, supplemented by older items still offerred (EBay) like BB kits. And I enjoy taking on some of the better detailed ones (like a Tichy crane that has not been addressed).
I'm glad the issue has come up again, as I see I need to look into doing some Intermountain kits I have not tried! But that would add to the unbuild inventory if I order now.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I thought I'd bring up a not-mentioned-yet line of freight car kits, Cannon and Co.:
http://shop.cannonandco.net/category.sc;jsessionid=43BA0267FB70B9673DB684432A3F488F.p3plqscsfapp005?categoryId=21
Assume for the moment that the manufacturers are not grotesquely stupid.Therefore, if kits sold well, they'd be producing kits.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Also: I AM MAKING A PREDICTION!I predict that as the Baby Boomers continue to age, and more and more of us are on fixed incomes, kits will come back in a big way.RTR exploded in the 90s because the Boomers hit the empty nest category: senior in your job, well compensated, very busy, the kids are married and out of the nest, the mortgage is paid off, and the dog is dead. Boomers had more money than time, and the market responded, as markets do.Those days are reaching an end.You heard it here first.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Also: I AM MAKING A PREDICTION!I predict that as the Baby Boomers continue to age, and more and more of us are on fixed incomes, kits will come back in a big way.You heard it here first.
Also: I AM MAKING A PREDICTION!I predict that as the Baby Boomers continue to age, and more and more of us are on fixed incomes, kits will come back in a big way.You heard it here first.
Everyone is an expert at predicting the future but few have actually been right; case in point - people predicting the demise of the hobby for the past umpteen years.
Here is one major flaw in your prediction. There are already many hobbyists with HUGE collections of kits who never had time to finish the kits accumulated over the past 50 years. I see these collections at nearly every big train show I go to - tons of kits from the 70's, 80's, and 90's there for the picking for cheap. I see this show after show, year after year for the past 10-15 years as RTR models have take over the hobby, evil as they are to some hobbyists.
The market is, and has been, glutted with kits for years because so many people bought far more than they had time to build. Oh, and even John Armstrong wrote about this common model railroader characteristic back in the 1970's and mentioned it in one of his book I read, LOL.
I was victim to buying more kits than I had time or desire to build too btw, and over the past 10-15 years I have gone over my collection numerous times and realized hey, if I haven't built most of these I might as well sell them and use the cash to help me buy RTR cars which happen to be accurate versions of real cars - what a concept.
Lack of time and desire to build umpteen kits and the same universal realization is the reason why RTR took off wildly during the past 20 years. That glut will have to be eaten through before the demand is high enough, and manufacturers actually figure it out, before kits start to make anything like the come back you are prediciting. That is assuming that ever comes to pass at all.
Don't forget that many of these baby boomers have been collecting kits all along and good grief, will they have time to build them when they are retired and on a fixed income? Likely many will pass on unbuilt kits onto the secondary market as that cycle continues.
Even if that kit manufacturing renaisance finally occurs as the kit fans are hoping for, many may not be alive to see it - if it even happens at all, which is not a forgone conclusion. This is one of the cases were people of reasonable "sound" minds may have to agree to disagree on.
One thing is for sure, anyone can see for themselves what is occuring in the market year after year and so far - no light at the end of the tunnel - only postulation - which is no good to the original poster.
Anyway, back to the OP - them are the apples at present. Manufacturers have been, and continue to respond to where the lions share of the demand is - they follow the money - not the loud voices of a few crying in the model train wilderness.
People who have been on this forum are well aware there is a loud group of kit fans here, which apparently doesn't represent the majority of the buying public, or we would see kits being sold in much larger quantities.
That said, there are kits available - not very many for "modern" cars however, which I know isn't much consolation.
There are probably several reason why easy to build/generic/snap together cars are mostly non-existent. I just don't think the market for simple, generic models is potentially very lucrative. (*EDIT* While I was typing riogrande5761 made some of the same observations.)
Part of this is knowledge. In the bad old days research material wasn't available in the volume we see now, so the average hobbyist couldn't so easily determine just how poor typical models were. More of today's modelers are demanding better products with prototype specific details, and I suspect that's enough of the market to keep generic cars from being profitable for most manufacturers. Generic RTR stuff doesn't necessarily sell as well as highly detailed versions of the same models either.
Hobbyists have always been looking for instant gratification. Used to be you could almost get that from a basic car kit, which usually resulted in, at best, a so-so model. Now you can get something in RTR that's much better for a cost that's actually pretty reasonable given inflation. I maintain that modelers from years past mostly built car kits because they had to. Some of us approach the hobby as a craft and enjoy the process of building things, but a large proportion just want to run trains, so building may be viewed as a hindrance (and it's fine with me if that's what somebody prefers).
Plus, if simple kits were supposedly the gateway to tacking more complex models, howcome so few ever attempted advanced kits? Rarely do I encounter anyone bemoaning the loss of basic kits who ever developed the skill to build advanced plastic cars, let alone wood or resin. Most people figured out the minimum to get by with stuff like Athearn or MDC, and never moved beyond that. Give the old timers access to the RTR models of today and many would have given up on kits back then too.
There's a big secondary market out there for entry level kits, inlcuding what passed for "modern" at the time kit production went away (e.g. Walthers had a fair number of more modern cars). That supply will probably soak up a fair amount of the remaining demand for some time to come.
Anecdotally, the modelers I know who prefer the modern era, and/or are pressed for budget or space, seem to prefer fewer, but better models. I think that's where most of the profit stands to be made, hence why rolling stock has moved to higher end pre-built cars.
Other kit and DIY product still exists in abundance. Look at how many people use Fast Tracks stuff to build track. Look at the proliferation of craftsman structure kits and niche vehicles. Scenery material is available in greater variety than ever. There's a lot to build and stay busy, just not that much of a desire for modelers to do so with freight cars.
Rob Spangler
It's not the hobby, life has changed. I don't think we can put the genie back into this bottle.
We sit longer in traffic going to and from work. We have to catch up on the Internet every day: mail, news, forums, endless youtube videos, facebook, twitter and instagram. Gotta shutttle the kids to soccer practice or lacrosse camp.
My grandfather used to whittle whistles from some sort of branch and my mother made me a bubble toy out of soapy water and the top of a green onion.
Now you order a big plastic hoop from Amazon and make huge bubbles. The kids in my neighborhood don't ride bikes, they ride battery powered mini motorcycles. Their parents don't walk, they load the dog in the golf cart and ride around the neighborhood. Not even the dog gets exercise anymore.
Look around any restaurant. People aren't talking to each other, they are looking at their cell phones.
It's all about instant gratification. There is no attention span anymore. We want to open the box and use it, not assemble it over hours or days. I too miss the old days, but we are dinosaurs.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy It's not the hobby, life has changed. I don't think we can put the genie back into this bottle. We sit longer in traffic going to and from work. We have to catch up on the Internet every day: mail, news, forums, endless youtube videos, facebook, twitter and instagram. Gotta shutttle the kids to soccer practice or lacrosse camp.
Thats part of it for sure. I think the big kit fans who are often retired forget things like that when they praise the kit building world and cast RTR as a bad thing or in some cases acuse hobbiests of wanting instant gratification. I feel that is an over simplication when in reality, the things you raised are very true. Time is not a commodity many have in liberal supply.
In my case, I work long hours. Also in order to get out of the chaos of the area I live and maybe get a home with decent sized basement, I'm now planning to move another 30 minutes drive futher away from work. But around here, unfortunately, if you aren't loaded or have inherited a few hundred thou, then you have to move further out for a stand alone home with a decent basement. Many have kids, and busy lives. Thats a fact.
So when manufacturers started offering RTR, people who have limited time are pleased with the HQ RTR offerings.
Also, as Rob pointed out, people now are interested in accurate models vs. the old generic models of Athearn/MDC blue box days of yor. They would rather have fewer accurate models than a large roster of generic models, in many cases.
It's all about instant gratification.
Sure, I get the "I want it now crowd" but the instant gratification accusation is used as a kudgel and a bad thing when most modelers know it is a big time consuming task to carve out time to build a layout and all it entails. If you have lots of time, bless you, but RTR models do help you build a roster while you are hopefully still young enough to enjoy oprating a layout with trains the look like what you remember.
Frankly, there are still plenty of things that demand your time - for instance models don't look very realistic if they all look shiny and new. So even if you buy an RTR model, in many cases you need to add ACI labels, COTS stencils and weather it realistically. If you have a big fleet and are trying to build a layout, that could take you years if you have a long commute and a family or wife who wants you to ALSO be a part of their lives. For you single guys who can come home after work and tinker with trains until bed time, bless you.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayRTR exploded in the 90s because the Boomers hit the empty nest category: senior in your job, well compensated, very busy, the kids are married and out of the nest, the mortgage is paid off, and the dog is dead.
OMG, the dog died? Anyone remember Flip Wilson's version of this (I can't find the video). Sorry but it's a classic even tho a total tangent.
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/92q4/badnews.html
peahrensOMG, the dog died? Anyone remember Flip Wilson's version of this (I can't find the video)...
I've heard the story before, but not Flip Wilson's version.
peahrens ...Sorry but it's a classic even tho a total tangent.
Speaking of tangent, Tangent offers some of their r-t-r cars in kit versions, too. While mine aren't especially modern, at least they were kits...
Rapido hasn't yet done a lot of freight cars, but this is one of them, and was built from an undecorated kit...
I "get" that r-t-r is what sells, and I've bought a few myself.
I've also had the opportunity to fill my roster of freight and passenger cars with stuff built mostly from kits, and most of them upgraded, often more than once. It's been a lot of fun, and most of the kits on which I learned are still available for those who want them - check out local train shows in your area. In most cases, prices are even better than they were 20 years ago. And if those kits aren't challenging enough for you, there's nothing preventing you from making a few of your own "improvements".
Wayne
I think that most model railroaders aren't ( and never were) that interested in kits. They built them because they had to. But once the labor cost came way down by assembling kits in China, RTR rapidly became the preferred option. For those who like kits, they are mostly high end - very accurate and expensive. I hope Accurail survives, but I see their prices are creeping up.
I see the same thing happening with structures. RTR is expanding, Woodland Scenics line is constantly growing. Other companies like Menard's are getting into RTR.
Even track is more RTR with built in road bed and switch motors.
Personally, I like kits and continue to buy and build them. But I am planning a large layout (17x40) in my new basement. So I will use all the RTR I can to get the layout built. Even using standins from other scales - I'm building in S, but a lot of the O pre built structures are undersized and can be used.
SeeYou190 My belief is that it is because the freight car manufacturers all hate me. . You will see a lot of people blaming young people that do not want to build kits, but that is nonsense. Have you ever assembled a Gundam kit? Young people put those together all the time, and they are amazing. Younger people still love to build things. . I think it is because, although we do not want to admit it, model railroaders are getting very old, and kits are not selling anymore. . I am stuck with what Tichy, F&C, and a few others offer. None of these are modern. . -Kevin .
Well here is my thinking, for which I am sure exactly nobody has been waiting. I think there are three inter-related explanations for the lack of modern freight cars in the remaining lines of plastic kits (e.g., Accurail, Bowser, Tichy, and perhaps a couple of others).
1. Those who model the era of modern freight cars are likely to be of a generation of modeler for whom accuracy (to a fairly high degree) to prototype is very important, more important that it was practical to be back in the 1960s. The Athearn blue box and similar MDC 40' steel boxcars of blessed memory, for example, were essentially stand ins for every 40' steel boxcar, ever, regardless of prototype or era, and thus were issued road names, numbers, and paint schemes without regard to prototype accuracy. We accepted it back, or gritted our teeth and made whatever changes we could to minimize the inaccuracies, but we were still compromising and knew it (or often didn't know it because freight car information was not anywhere near as easy to come by 30 and more years ago).
You see some fairly scathing reviews (published and online including in these Forums from time to time) about Accurail and their kits because Accurail follows the old Athearn tradition of offering paint and lettering schemes that in many cases are not exactly correct, and sometimes are not in the least correct, for the car they put it on. Accurail must sell plenty of kits regardless of those scathing reviews, and maybe the reason is that the absolutist type prototype modelers are in a minority for the transition era, but might be in the majority of modelers of the present day era. Does that make sense?
2. Modern day freight cars cover a lot of territory - the sheer number and variety of modern covered hoppers or tank cars is hard to keep up with, and it changes every year. Which one would sell? Who knows? It is easier to create kits (or add lettering to existing tooling) for what is now a closed book of freight car designs and alternatives, that being the transition era of cars mostly if not entirely now retired from the prototype, but still very popular among modelers and thus a good market to serve.
3. Here I am danger of reawakened some topics and threads that make some people very angry so I will tread lightly. Today's modern freight cars feature a great deal of visible yet delicate details, such as the "trombone" style coupler lift mechanisms, the visible brake rods underneath, complex door latches, covered hopper hatches, and the list goes on. To do justice to these details calls for separately applied rather than molded on parts, and that in turn demands a level of complexity to the kit that rises well above the shake the box level.
Frankly those complex kits are selling cheaply at train shows because there is not a sufficiently large mass market for them. The old pre-Walthers LifeLike Proto2000 freight car kits (which were NOT of modern prototypes it is true, but often have the complexity of separate parts that a modern prototype car kit would also need) as well as the somewhat similar old Intermountain, Red Caboose, and IMWX kits I see selling for $5 or even $3 at train shows where Athearn blue boxes are getting $7 or $8. And I sheepishly admit I have stacks of unbuilt kits of BOTH types on my groaning shelves.
The one firm that has the potential for bucking this trend is Scaletrains, not only because they feature modern cars (RTR) but seem determined (or were when they first emerged) to bring back fairly simple kits.
Dave Nelson
The cost of a kit is almost similar to that or an RTR. Yeah, an RTR is expensive, but to get similar quality out of a kit, the price would be the same.
An old shake-the-box kit never had the details of today's offerings. It is those details that you are paying for, and once paid for, butting the car together costs almost nothing.
A complet car is eye catching, a box does not. They are figuring on geting impulse purchases.
Now LIONS do not run freight cars. Him only runs SUBWAY TRAINS. Him can buy some very nice ones at $400. a car, but him can ont afford that. So him buys cheap sets, if you can call a set cheap at $200.00.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
IRONROOSTER I think that most model railroaders aren't ( and never were) that interested in kits. They built them because they had to.
I think that most model railroaders aren't ( and never were) that interested in kits. They built them because they had to.
Yes, I fully agree. We hear from a vocal group of people who love to build kits, but I personally think they are in the minority, and the reaction of train model manufacurers is proof that it is indeed true. There is other proof, such as a glut of kits at train shows as well. In the olden days most of us built kits because we had to. Some enjoy it, and a few enjoy it a lot. Not enough kits sold so companies have largely switched over to RTR, which far outsells kits. That is indesputable.
But once the labor cost came way down by assembling kits in China, RTR rapidly became the preferred option. For those who like kits, they are mostly high end - very accurate and expensive. I hope Accurail survives, but I see their prices are creeping up.
Most prices have crept up, but Accurail kit prices are still fairly modest and haven't crept up as much as RTR stuff. I purchase a few new Accurail 40' box cars recently for around $12 each after idenifying some which matched real freight cars. Some do, many are foobies of course. The relatively newly tooled CF4750 covered hopper sells for around $16 - it is quite decent and with a little effort and weathering blends in nicely with higher detail finer models. Atlas has offered a few kits in recent years. IMRC, Tangent and ExactRail, even Athearn still offers undecoratged kits on a limited basis.
Personally, I like kits and continue to buy and build them. But I am planning a large layout (17x40) in my new basement. So I will use all the RTR I can to get the layout built. Paul
I like kits too, but like you, I'll use a lot of RTR rolling stock to free up time for layout building. While I was winding down on my last 10x18' layout, I did take some time to build number of kits that have sat in boxes for years left over after I had sold off most of the other kits I decided were never going to get built and/or were no longer needed after I had changed time periods.
dknelson You see some fairly scathing reviews (published and online including in these Forums from time to time) about Accurail and their kits because Accurail follows the old Athearn tradition of offering paint and lettering schemes that in many cases are not exactly correct, and sometimes are not in the least correct, for the car they put it on. Accurail must sell plenty of kits regardless of those scathing reviews, and maybe the reason is that the absolutist type prototype modelers are in a minority for the transition era, but might be in the majority of modelers of the present day era. Does that make sense?
I suppose when people first realize most freight cars made by Athearn, MDC, Accurail etc. dont' match any real freight cars, they get angry and all that. Then there are those who have been around long enough and understand "the big picture" and realize there is no evil conspiracy to dupe modelers into buying fantasy models, then we built a bridge and got over it a long time ago. Yeah, yea, there are still a few hangers on, or folks who never knew this who give the "scathing reviews". Whatever.
Those of us who "know the deal", know fantasy models are still made and yes, horrors, even Tangent has made a few fantasy models due to customers actually demanding it, apparently. So long and short of it is there are two categories of people regarding Accurail and the like:
1) Lots of people buy them because they are economical, easy to build and they aren't terribly bothered about accuracy - they are perfectly happy with them because the freight cars "look" like real freight cars could have and they are maybe into over all train appearance and operation.
2) There are others, like myself, who prefer freight cars which match real freight cars where ever possible. We take the time to do some research to find out which Accurail, Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, ExactRail and Tangent etc. freight cars match real freight cars. And yes, to varying degree's there are models from all these manufacturers which visually match real freight cars pretty well. I found some of Accurails 40' box cars matched some photo's recently and bought them because my late 1970's era layout of D&RGW needs a fair amount of freight traffic which includes pre-merger roads like NP, GN, CB&Q, NYC, PC, PRR along and the like. Atlas makes a lot of 40 and 50' freight cars which are good matches and some which are almost a good match if you can ignore a few side sill variations. It depends on your tolerance of how accurate things need to be. There are so many models being produced however, if you are careful you can limit most of your purchases to models which are pretty darn close to real freight cars.
Here I am danger of reawakened some topics and threads that make some people very angry so I will tread lightly. Today's modern freight cars feature a great deal of visible yet delicate details, such as the "trombone" style coupler lift mechanisms, the visible brake rods underneath, complex door latches, covered hopper hatches, and the list goes on. To do justice to these details calls for separately applied rather than molded on parts, and that in turn demands a level of complexity to the kit that rises well above the shake the box level.
The selection of detailed modern cars has grown quite a bit from American Limited, BLMA, Atlas, ExactRail and ScaleTrains in particular. Limited quantities of undecorated kits have been offered if modern folks really want to assemble and paint their own if that is waht they really want. If what you say is true, folks may be able to find some at good prices?
The one firm that has the potential for bucking this trend is Scaletrains, not only because they feature modern cars (RTR) but seem determined (or were when they first emerged) to bring back fairly simple kits. Dave Nelson
Mostly the ScaleTrains operator cars are a semi compromise to modern kits as they are assembled but cost is kept modest by leaving off detail parts which must be applied by the modeler - semi kits - but modelers can leave the parts off and just operate too.
The only simple kit from ST I am aware of is the Evans 50' box car, which ST offered to provide something for budget minded people. Unfortunately it basically duplicates a boxcar made by Details West (kit) and now sold by Athearn (RTR), and a box car offered for many years by Atlas, which I already owned a number of. Some day I may buy a couple of the ST version, but many are foobie paint jobs and the fairly correct paint jobs I want seem to have already sold out os oh well.
I do not think there is a demise of kit building, just freight car and locomotive kits.
We all build structure kits, we scratchbuild our benchwork. We do all the wiring.
I think the issue is that for most people, it is tedious and repetitive to build a freight car kit that matches the detail they want.
I build lots of F&C kits, probably one per month or so, and I can see how that is not everyone's cup of tea. Drilling and installing grab irons passes the hotel time while on business, but if I was at home, maybe that time would be spent on something else.
The "shake-the-box" kits are so simple to assemble that the makers would rather sell it as assembled RTR 'cause peope will pay more for an RTR model than for a kit. In short, the makers would rather sell higher priced RTR than lower priced kits, since the labor to assemble a kit is so trivial. Hence the lack of kits for sale.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I dont know if people who model the modern era in the 2000's are all that much more concerned about accurate paint jobs and doors latches as people who modeled modern era in the 1960s. The yellow, green, blue, brown, white, gray, etc cars all have the correct roadnames for their color, its just that the details are finer.
Just like automobile buyer who now demand power windows, locks, cruise control, etc to be standard equipement, more modelers demand finer and separately applied details to be the norm for their generic cars. Generic grabs and stirrups, knuckle couplers, metal wheels, maybe some visible underbody detail is the new standard; but roadname specific?, nah. Most modelers don't car about roadname specific details, especially on rolling stock.
Generic is the demand, as it always has been, which is why Athearn BB and MDC sold so well.
The difference is that the generic car that modelers expect in the 2000s has a finer level of generic details than it had in the 1960s, and people don't want to apply those details by hand to make the generic car, so RTR has become the norm.
But, overall, generic is still the norm.
Paul3...Today, people want to run trains. They'd rather spend an hour running fully built models than an hour building a kit (not to mention the hours and hours it takes learning how to build kits). We had to build kits back in the old days because that's practically all there was...
We had to build kits back in the old days because that's practically all there was...
dstarr The "shake-the-box" kits are so simple to assemble that the makers would rather sell it as assembled RTR 'cause peope will pay more for an RTR model than for a kit. In short, the makers would rather sell higher priced RTR than lower priced kits, since the labor to assemble a kit is so trivial. Hence the lack of kits for sale.
Well, Accurail gave that a try with the Accuready and I don't think any new Accuready RTR cars have been released in many years. Based on my observations over the past 10-15 years it's not the case what you are saying.
So who are these "shake-in-the-box" makers of today 2016/2017 etc? I don't see much in the way of those items being regularly produced after an initial go at it. Mostly what is left of that movement is Athearn's migration to the "Roundhouse" line of RTR stuff, which is about all thats left of the RTR "shake-in-the-box" models. There are Atlas Trainman that were never kits and Walthers Trainline (former crude but mildly upgraded former RTR LifeLike). Atlas took the not so shake in the box Branchline kits and has release very nice RTR version of those which look TONS better.
Athearn has actually taken quite a few of the models that were formerly "shake-in-the-box" and upgraded them with fine details and sold them as RTR kits - which to me the upgrades place them in a different category. They no longer look like their old kit cousins. Here are a few examples upgraded with wire grab irons and other fine details including etched metal roof walks were appropriate:
former MDC Thrall Coal Gondola'sformer MDC 5-bay Ortner Rapid Discharge coal carsformer MDC FMC 3-bay covered hopperA number of former Athearn/MDC box cars now have fine wire grabs and fine stirrups.
Accurail discontinued their "shake in the box" kits as RTR a long time ago and are back to selling just kits for probably 8 years now - and they fall together so it's no big deal, even to those who find kit building repetitive and boring.
Except for Athearns Roundhouse line, which consists of the older, cruder cars left over from the old kit days, most of the RTR products being made these days are upgraded or higher detail models. Look at Athearn's standard RTR line, many/most are quite nice and some we would have called Genesis in the olden days. Intermoutain RTR were never shake in the box. Nor Proto 2000 - sold in RTR form.
Where are the makers who would rather sell simple shake in the box kits assembled as RTR in the present day?
The lack of kits for sale was explained by Athearn in their letter (also found on their wiki):
October 16, 2009; Athearn announced that it would stop making so-called "blue-box kits" because of increased manufacturing and labor costs. "Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." Excerpt from an email from Athearn. .
"Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." Excerpt from an email from Athearn. .
Bottom line, kits were not selling anymore. Common sense tells us it was because people had less time and more money, we've discussed this adnauseum here and that horse is long dead.
DoughlessGeneric is the demand, as it always has been, which is why Athearn BB and MDC sold so well.
The key word being "past tense" sold so well, but as I quoted above, not since they shut blue box production down 8 years ago. Just sayin...
Which explains why Tangent, ExactRail, Athearn Genesis, Intermountain, Moloco and Wheels of Time are selling so well? And why relatively few (in comparison) generic kits are still being produced?
SeeYou190 I do not think there is a demise of kit building, just freight car and locomotive kits. . We all build structure kits, we scratchbuild our benchwork. We do all the wiring. . I think the issue is that for most people, it is tedious and repetitive to build a freight car kit that matches the detail they want. . I build lots of F&C kits, probably one per month or so, and I can see how that is not everyone's cup of tea. Drilling and installing grab irons passes the hotel time while on business, but if I was at home, maybe that time would be spent on something else. . -Kevin
I enjoy kit building, so I'm sad to see kits disappear, but I understand why many prefer RTR. I like Tichy's kits, but I do enjoy Bowser, Accurail, and other shake-the-box kits. I also enjoy Bowser and MDC Steam locomotive kits, too.
If one needs a fleet of freightcars, though, drilling grabs can become tiresome in a hurry. I had trouble breaking/dropping those grabs on Proto 2000 stockcar kits, and Branchline kits got old, too.
I build kits in hotel rooms but the lighting isn't good enough for me to install grabs.
Gary
garya I enjoy kit building, so I'm sad to see kits disappear, ... like Tichy's kits, but I do enjoy Bowser, Accurail, and other shake-the-box kits.
There is no need to be sad. The kits have NOT disappeared. I tell you I go to the Timonium train show and see kits there by the table - yes, including Tichy - which I think are actively still making kits. Maybe the problem is how you find the Athearn, MDC, Accurail and all the rest - train shows, Ebay, HOswap (yahoo groups) which has kits advertised nearly every day!
Good grief man, all you want is still out there for the taking. Celebrate! This is the golden age - there are tons of stuff people think were gone but are not, plus lots of new amazing products. I just can't understand why people are sad, there is no reason to be.