This weekend I ran a train with DC on my modular layout that is going to be wired for DCC (some of it is currently). I connected a second hand MRC Tech 2 powerpack to the rails in the middle of the layout with terminal joiners (I use these for my bench test track).
Took about 2 min once I had all the track in to have a train up and running (all new old stock off the shelf, no modifications, handrails not even installed on the atlas locomotive or tank cars).
This hobby is only as complex as you make it. <-probably the best advice you could give
Howard Zane..but the newly retired looking for a hobby to fill their upcoming years were the ones whom I found to be intimidated by under bench activities.
A possible solution is to stop showing them your under bench areas....
Howard ZaneOver the decades, I learned that simplicity wins hands down
This:
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou buy a NCE system, hook two wires to a loop of track, plug it in to the wall, and off you go!
They will learn the rest later.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAND, there is nothing wrong with a beginner starting out with DC
Also just two wires for running in a circle.
Also this:
BRAKIEIts not the complexity of DCC or a DC layout its modelers making a fuss over nothing by saying or in some cases bragging how much work is in their layout or that engine cost (fill the blank).
I would say that the majority of model railroaders (I am guilty of this as well, but I am fixing this), end up with a rats nest of wiring under the layout that would frighten a seasoned electrical engineer.
The best layout wiring I have seen was an L-girder layout with risers without scenery. The guy has all his track laid and ran his main power bus right along with the track, no crawling under, all his wiring was done standing up (at least on the upper level, there is a staging yard).
The worst is on club owned modules where 3 different people have applied their interpretation of how wiring should be done over each other. Results in wiring going everywere, running to terminal strips that just feed back to the main bus, etc...
I agree that it is more about the money. You need to have some discressionary income for this hobby, and a lot of younger people do not have it. As far as the complexity of a dcc system when my Grandson Lucas was 2 he knew his way around his Dads ipad alot better then his dad did and even taught him stuff, he can turn on the entertainment system with no trouble in fact his mom just lets him do it cause it easier that learning it herself. He comes over to operate trains and all I have to do is show him once and he has got it. Point is kids these days are at ease with electronics. I have a feeling after a few months they could teach us old timers a lot about what our dcc systems could do.
Howard ZaneNow possibly a refined DCC "plug and play" system would be better than "dead rail." It is way above my pay grade to know this, but I do know that the complexities of today's systems are scaring many from entering the hobby.
Howard,If I may? Its not the complexity of DCC or a DC layout its modelers making a fuss over nothing by saying or in some cases bragging how much work is in their layout or that engine cost (fill the blank).
One doesn't need a basement filling layout,build a special shed or whatever and there is no need for expensive cars and locomotives when there are engines and cars like Athearn RTR,Walthers Main Line and Atlas Trainman. A 4x8 foot layout will satisfy a new hobbyist for a time.
This is how simple the hobby can be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zra58A70uSA
Whenever I'm ask how much does the hobby cost my normal answer is as much as you want to spend.
Then I give this example..You can buy a engine or two ,some cars,join the club and run your trains here or you can go full bore and build a large layout in your basement. The choice is yours.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Trouble with today is they make lots of new bells and whisles but for those that don't want them, they make it a task, even to uper it levels to turn them off and they are forever changing things, sometimes for a new look hoping to grab new people but many times they just turn off the people they already have, e-bay is famous for that.
Howard Zane Actually, when I began this post, I was not referring to kids. It is the electonics that interest and inspires them...but the newly retired looking for a hobby to fill their upcoming years were the ones whom I found to be intimidated by under bench activities. I could be in a sort of unique (possibly not the correct word) situation as co-runnng [a major] show for 31 years and hosting around 1000 visitors per year to my Piermont Division pike, I got to meet many folks and hear an enormous amont of comments. Many "civilians" who could have become model rails overwhelmingly asked about electronics and wiring. Over the decades, I learned that simplicity wins hands down. Now possibly a refined DCC "plug and play" system would be better than "dead rail." It is way above my pay grade to know this, but I do know that the complexities of today's systems are scaring many from entering the hobby. HZ
Actually, when I began this post, I was not referring to kids. It is the electonics that interest and inspires them...but the newly retired looking for a hobby to fill their upcoming years were the ones whom I found to be intimidated by under bench activities. I could be in a sort of unique (possibly not the correct word) situation as co-runnng [a major] show for 31 years and hosting around 1000 visitors per year to my Piermont Division pike, I got to meet many folks and hear an enormous amont of comments. Many "civilians" who could have become model rails overwhelmingly asked about electronics and wiring. Over the decades, I learned that simplicity wins hands down. Now possibly a refined DCC "plug and play" system would be better than "dead rail." It is way above my pay grade to know this, but I do know that the complexities of today's systems are scaring many from entering the hobby.
HZ
Howard,
For a beginner, DCC is already really simple. A small layout does not need boosters or power districts, or circuit breakers.
You buy a NCE system, hook two wires to a loop of track, plug it in to the wall, and off you go!
AND, there is nothing wrong with a beginner starting out with DC, except of course "eveybody" (accept me) wants sound.
My DC wiring is way more complex than your DCC wiring. I have DC advanced Cab Control with CTC and signaling, one button route control of turnouts, wireless radio throttles, walk around cab selection, etc.
But people grow into whatever level of complexity suits them, No body starts out a master scratch builder like you, nobody starts out a master electrician like me.
In terms of a percentage of our lives, I've been at this hobby as long as you, maybe longer. New people, young or old, still have to walk before they run. If they cannot handle that, then it is not the right hobby for them.
Logan Holtgrewe had me making trees and scratch building structures at age 15, and Sam Shepherd was teaching me wiring and how to hand build turnouts. I was lucky to have such great mentors. None of us start at the top.........
Sheldon
Even with emogis, humor and sarcasm don't always transfer well to the typed word.....
My appoligies, and I agree, young people will have to know what trains are to be interested in them........
It was a joke son, I say a joke. Hence the laughing smileys. Only because any time someone dares post about using OSB or something other than plywood, there are immediately a dozen messages saying how unsuitable the material is, yet here is Sheldon's decent size layout that's been around for years using OSB.
Like different control systems work for different people, so do different building materials.
I think we've beat the topic to death now. To attract young peopel who have been raised on video games, perhaps what we really need are game controller style throttles and bring back those oddball trains Tyco produced near their end, only with better wuality. Real trains are too slow for today's speed infused, zero attention span youth. You cna hoom'em young with Thomas, but as they get too old for that they seem to find trains 'boring'. Later on, as they mature, things may change.
Even i went through that, to a lesser degree, and "video games" when I was a kid were the original Pong and knockoffs, and I was nearly a teenager before we got an Atari 2600. But I was also into computers from an early age, and just as I hit my teens I was able to afford my first one. The trains (at the time I had a 3x6 N scale layout in my room) sort of went by the wayside, it didn't help that most of my locos were Bachmann and very poor runners - including my HUGE disappointment of the Santa Fe Northern I diligently saved up for only to find it practically fell apart when I ran it. My best running loco was an Atlas Plymouth switcher. I was rapdily becoming frustrated and spend more time learning and expanding my computer, and it wasn't until after college, nearly another 10 years, that I goot back into model railroading. To the point I never even checked to see if there was a club on campus (and I found out later - there is). That's being distracted with a computer I had to solder together myself, which programmed directly in machine language, no BASIC, no disk drives, no keyboard. And it had its own frustrations getting some things to work, but I kept at it, while the layout languished, untouched. I can only imagine if I had had video games from an early age, if I ever would have gotten that interested in trains - when I was really young, we only had trains running from Thanksgiving to New Year, we didn;t have room for a permanent layoout, so the rest of the year I didn;t do a thing with trains, yet I still got hooked.
In shoort, i don;t think it's the control system that keeps kids away. It is the simple fact that, compared to other entertainments they have, trains are boring and "old fashioned". Even modern power. Plus there are many places you cna live now and NEVER see a real train - I happen to live near a very busy main route but unlike the days of yore when trains served nearly every community, now you cna grow up and never see a real train. A whiz bang fancy controller is not going to change that.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
SeeYou190 SeeYou190 Anyway... to get away from what a huge mistake it is to use OSB . ATLANTIC CENTRAL It would have only been a mistake if it had not worked . Or... Maybe not. Oh well. I tried to get the thread back on topic. . -Kevin .
SeeYou190 Anyway... to get away from what a huge mistake it is to use OSB
.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It would have only been a mistake if it had not worked
Or... Maybe not. Oh well. I tried to get the thread back on topic.
-Kevin
Kevin, it is called "conversation", I followed it where it went. And it is all related. Fact is layout concept has a lot to do with what kind of control system is best for each layout.
So understanding my layout concept has everything to do with why not even DCC has attracted my money let alone dead rail or some smart phone app.
And I have commented repeatedly in this thread as to why I don't think it something like dead rail will attract new people or be an advantage for new people.
PS - Those 50 piggyback cars pictures above all have those sprung trucks others say don't work........
SeeYou190Anyway... to get away from what a huge mistake it is to use OSB
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt would have only been a mistake if it had not worked
Living the dream.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sure, how big is that layout room? And double decked at that, with a fair share of narrow shelves and hidden track. Sheldon, It may look double deck but,its not its a twisty spaghetti bowl that doubles back and loops around.The DC main line engineer's panel with signal indicators was in a crow's nest overlooking the layout the CTC board was in front of the layout and train movement was govern by signal. Sorry,but the measurements is long forgotten. Nice looking engines ya got there. BTW.That is the oldest club in Ohio.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sure, how big is that layout room? And double decked at that, with a fair share of narrow shelves and hidden track.
Sheldon, It may look double deck but,its not its a twisty spaghetti bowl that doubles back and loops around.The DC main line engineer's panel with signal indicators was in a crow's nest overlooking the layout the CTC board was in front of the layout and train movement was govern by signal.
Sorry,but the measurements is long forgotten.
Nice looking engines ya got there.
BTW.That is the oldest club in Ohio.
Thanks for the kind words Larry, maybe one day soon I will take some better photos.....
SeeYou190 Anyway... to get away from what a huge mistake it is to use OSB, .....
Anyway... to get away from what a huge mistake it is to use OSB, .....
It would have only been a mistake if it had not worked......it was laminated to a 1" thickness with staggered joints, framed underneath and along the front with 1x2's and only spaned an 18" width suspended from the sloped ceiling - again, no sags.
It was an experiment in thin benchwork, and it worked.
Regarding train controls, predicting the future is almost always wrong........
ATLANTIC CENTRALSure, how big is that layout room? And double decked at that, with a fair share of narrow shelves and hidden track.
Anyway... to get away from what a huge mistake it is to use OSB, and back to future locomotive controls... I have been thinking about this a bit as I have been driving through the Georgia countryside this weekend.
1) The next control system WILL NOT be for any of us, nor will it be what any of us want. From what I am reading here, we are all happy with our control systems. I am 100% satisfied with DC, all the DCC users are happy too. So whatever comes out next will be made fo whoever comes up next. We already have what we want. Luck us! I have no need fro a better control system, and I am at least two generations behind, happily.
2) The next control system MUST attract new people with money into the hobby. This means it will need to be simple and exciting. Probably very toy-like from our point of view. It can't be made for use, because we will not buy it anyway.
Someone said earlier that the USA market was not the big fish in the Model Railroading world, that may be true. However, we are THE whale in the economic world. If you want to be a huge success, you need to succeed in the USA. If an all new, exciting, simple, enjoyable Train/Control System hits the market, maybe even as a "stand-alone" system with no NMRA compliance, in a different scale, that is top quality and fun, we might see a revlolution. Look at what happened when LGB was new. Seriously, that was a bit of a revolution we saw like this.
I will watch the excitement unfold, enjoy all the new enthusiasm for our hobby, and continue to run HO trains on 12 volts DC with a big smile on my face.
Ulrich is right, there is room for every one of us with all of our interests. Even the untapped next generation that we will think is doing it all wrong.
rrinker OMG, you used OSB. That stuff never works, it just sags... --Randy
OMG, you used OSB. That stuff never works, it just sags...
Actually, it did not sag at all, but it was only used for the narrow upper level and was laminated in two layers, with other support as well. It is being removed now for the new layout plan, but it was fine for nearly 15 years.
Larger areas on the lower level were/are 3/4" burch plywood.
New plan is completely modular for future relocation and expansion in the retirement house.
The new plan is designed to be expanded if space allows and may or may not be multi level as explained above.
BRAKIE Sheldon,Here is a well excuted point to point layout with lots of track between Sandusky and Portsmouth. I help build this layout back in the late 60s-its the Columbus(Oh) Model Railroad Club. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8KmNafxiNk I would rather see 4 GP9s on the point of that 50 car train.
Sheldon,Here is a well excuted point to point layout with lots of track between Sandusky and Portsmouth. I help build this layout back in the late 60s-its the Columbus(Oh) Model Railroad Club.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8KmNafxiNk
I would rather see 4 GP9s on the point of that 50 car train.
Sure, how big is that layout room? And double decked at that, with a fair share of narrow shelves and hidden track.
My first layout in my current space was like that, way too much cramed in, I simplified it when rebuilding so it can be moved later. Even with hidden stagging I have tried to eliminate most hidden "running" trackage.
I still don't see the need to build two terminals when that space can be devoted to other modeling.
And I have decided that I don't really don't care for the multi deck thing as much as I thought. So I have the option to expand the current layout plan "down" and make a narrow shelf lower deck that would be strickly scenic "run through" with no real operations.
And yes the ATLANTIC CENTRAL has plenty of GP7's as well, 8 at last count.
Other diesel power includes ALCO FA/FB sets, SD9's, RS3's, EMD E8's, F3's, F7's and FP7's
Not the best pictures, from the previous double deck layout:
Those ALCO's are coming around a 52" radius curve.......
With about 50 piggyback cars....
So there you go, seven locos just in these two pictures.
And we have not even talked about steam yet........
PS - having a few friends over to operate, or being in a round robin is one thing, a full blown club - no longer for me......
BRAKIE I would rather see 4 GP9s on the point of that 50 car train.
Sir Ulrich is right, there is something for everybody in this hobby. Personally, I'd like to see three Dash9s on the point . . .
My local 1:1 BNSF yard has a couple of relict SD40-2s (in faded BN Glacier Green and SF Bluebonnet liveries) consigned to drayage duty. They push strings of cars back-and-forth, back-and-forth, and back-and-forth for a few hours. Then the activity stops and things go quiet. A little while later three beefy AC4400s (or a pair of C44-9s and a shiny new SD70Ace) creep slowly up the ladder. You can almost hear them say, "Step aside, boys. We'll take it from here." At least, I can almost hear them say that. Your mileage may vary.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well I'm interested in more than switching a few cars on an ISL, or running 12 car trains around one loop of track. Sheldon,I think you will recall how I feel about loop layouts they never was my bag of tea. If I was going to build a basement filler for round robin operation it would be point to point with terminal switching and with some staging with a sneak back track for loaded and empty coal trains. I love a good point to point layout that was built for operation including local and terminal work. Of course since the 60s I have preferred ISLs because I love to switch cars in fact at clubs I am happiest doing terminal work,running a local or dispatching.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well I'm interested in more than switching a few cars on an ISL, or running 12 car trains around one loop of track.
Sheldon,I think you will recall how I feel about loop layouts they never was my bag of tea. If I was going to build a basement filler for round robin operation it would be point to point with terminal switching and with some staging with a sneak back track for loaded and empty coal trains. I love a good point to point layout that was built for operation including local and terminal work.
Of course since the 60s I have preferred ISLs because I love to switch cars in fact at clubs I am happiest doing terminal work,running a local or dispatching.
Larry, the problem with point to point layouts is the unrealistic short mainline run. Modeling two cties/terminals realisticly takes up too much space. I only model each feature of interest once.....
Track arrangement and operational scheme are two different things.
My layout operates as point to point. But only one terminal is visable. For operating sessions trains leave the hidden staging, travel to the main yard, and are then switched to the local industries nearby.
There is in effect a complete "ISL" intergrated into the layout, largely seperate from the double track mainline. Very few industries are switched from the mainline.
Traffic moves east and west, to and from stagging.
Some trains are run thru's, or simple power changes.
But the layout also supports display running, I like to call "railfan" modeling, as well as passenger operation.
I know you hate passenger trains......I love them.......
Some of the stagging is "thru" and some is dead end on a wye. This allows trains to be turned as a unit if desired.
Again, I want to do more than just be the engineer on a local, and want to model more than just an industrial area. My layout supports that, and much more. You would be very happy operating my industrial area belt line.
But 50 cars pulled by four F units is just cool.......
Isn´t it a great Hobby?
There is something in it for just about everybody! The techy gets the newest in controls, battery operated or not, the sound guy can listen to the staccato of his steamers or the deep growl of his diesels, the switcher can switch hi and lo, the railfan watch his tail chaser until the doc needs to come - just as you chose!
Wherelse can we enjoy the great liberty of doing exactly what pleases us?
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell I'm interested in more than switching a few cars on an ISL, or running 12 car trains around one loop of track.
Ditto...
BRAKIE SeeYou190 Absolutely! I can only control one locomotive at a time anyway. We are much better off with few great runners. . -Kevin I fully agree..After selling 90% of my stuff(BB and Roundhouse) I' m begining to think my Grandson and his friends may be right about quality over quantity My newest engine is a BLI SW7 and it out shines my older BB SW7. My P2K SW8 is still top notched. Of course and IMHO today's locomotives demands today's top quality freight cars and again IMHO they look more realistic.
SeeYou190 Absolutely! I can only control one locomotive at a time anyway. We are much better off with few great runners. . -Kevin
I fully agree..After selling 90% of my stuff(BB and Roundhouse) I' m begining to think my Grandson and his friends may be right about quality over quantity My newest engine is a BLI SW7 and it out shines my older BB SW7. My P2K SW8 is still top notched.
Of course and IMHO today's locomotives demands today's top quality freight cars and again IMHO they look more realistic.
Well I'm interested in more than switching a few cars on an ISL, or running 12 car trains around one loop of track.
My 130 locos represents a pretty conservative approach to my goals actually.
I pull long trains, 30,40,50 cars, sometimes more. The layout is large but relatively simple to accommadate them. It can stage about 25 trains.
The era is 1954, the typical diesel powered train is pulled by 3-4 unit lashups, typical steam powered trains are double headed.
So 130 "powered units" only represents power for those 25 trains, a few sets for operational power swaps, some switchers for the yard and industrial area, and some passenger power.
Layout is like a stage, showing one medium sized city and and a few miles of trackage in and out. Trains come and go from the staging. Operationally it supports about 8 trains/operators and a dispatcher at one time. For display running it easily suppors 4 trains.
Maybe large by some standards, but only medium sized and pretty simple compared to Howards layout.........
SeeYou190Absolutely! I can only control one locomotive at a time anyway. We are much better off with few great runners. . -Kevin
rrebellFrankly I would be happy with 6 good running engines, even before the downsize at my new place.
Absolutely! I can only control one locomotive at a time anyway. We are much better off with few great runners.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell First off DCC is only about 20% of the market in HO scale (note, I am talking users, not what gets sold today). Wireless, depending on the system, gets about 5% but alot of that is not supported anymore (and I am not talking battery power which counts for less than 1% ). On this forum DCC accounts for around 50% in HO scale. As you go up in scale, battery users go up and down the inverse. DCC goes down for both directions. Just remember how vast the market realy is and alot don't ever visit a forum or buy anything but used stuff. Myself, only 1% of my stuff is bought new. Respectfully, every informal survey, on here or elsewhere, suggests that DCC is used by about 50% of the active HO and N scale modelers. Obviously many of the the non DCC users are long established modelers not purchasing lots of locos, which creates the current market situation of nearly all new locos being DCC. In all the other scales, DCC is an "also ran" at 20% or less, but those other scales have always been dominated by proprietary control systems, AC and "do it yourself" systems. I agree that this, or any, forum represents only a very small, likely less than 1% of the hobby. And a great many people in the hobby have no interest in online forums. But my 50% number comes from a great many other sources, club memberships, shop owners, etc. Point remains, while I like the idea of both direct radio and dead rail, neither offers me any advantages over my current system using Aristo Train Engineer radio throttles and Advanced Cab Control. So why spend the money and do the work? I have other models to build.... Sheldon
rrebell First off DCC is only about 20% of the market in HO scale (note, I am talking users, not what gets sold today). Wireless, depending on the system, gets about 5% but alot of that is not supported anymore (and I am not talking battery power which counts for less than 1% ). On this forum DCC accounts for around 50% in HO scale. As you go up in scale, battery users go up and down the inverse. DCC goes down for both directions. Just remember how vast the market realy is and alot don't ever visit a forum or buy anything but used stuff. Myself, only 1% of my stuff is bought new.
First off DCC is only about 20% of the market in HO scale (note, I am talking users, not what gets sold today). Wireless, depending on the system, gets about 5% but alot of that is not supported anymore (and I am not talking battery power which counts for less than 1% ). On this forum DCC accounts for around 50% in HO scale. As you go up in scale, battery users go up and down the inverse. DCC goes down for both directions. Just remember how vast the market realy is and alot don't ever visit a forum or buy anything but used stuff. Myself, only 1% of my stuff is bought new.
Respectfully, every informal survey, on here or elsewhere, suggests that DCC is used by about 50% of the active HO and N scale modelers. Obviously many of the the non DCC users are long established modelers not purchasing lots of locos, which creates the current market situation of nearly all new locos being DCC.
In all the other scales, DCC is an "also ran" at 20% or less, but those other scales have always been dominated by proprietary control systems, AC and "do it yourself" systems.
I agree that this, or any, forum represents only a very small, likely less than 1% of the hobby. And a great many people in the hobby have no interest in online forums.
But my 50% number comes from a great many other sources, club memberships, shop owners, etc.
Point remains, while I like the idea of both direct radio and dead rail, neither offers me any advantages over my current system using Aristo Train Engineer radio throttles and Advanced Cab Control.
So why spend the money and do the work? I have other models to build....