Doughless...That was my point of view. Reinstalling roadbed to slightly change the angle or radius of a curve of track, and I couldn't figure how you could deal with ply or MDF and avoid using a hammer. If its just a matter of affixing track to the roadbed, yes, I understand. You don't need a hammer and using nails is as easy as pie. I just never had the reason to just realign the track and not the roadbed too, so that procedure never came to mind.
There's a curve on the upper level of my layout that needs to be moved, either as a whole or by slightly tightening the radius at one end of the curve. The track is nailed to the cork (and possibly partway into the plywood on which it sits).I plan to cut the rails somewhere beyond where the curve ends, then pull the track nails from at least three quarters of the curve. The cork is glued to the plywood with contact cement. Once I decide where the change in radius will begin, I'll lay half-sections of cork, upside down, with the angled edge butting against the inside angled edge of the cork of the original curve, effectively increasing the width of the roadbed by half.The track will then be re-installed on its slightly more tightly-curved path. I'll then use a utility knife to cut the edge of the new cork to a suitable width and angle, and do likewise on the old, outer edge of the original curve. These cut-offs can be removed with a scraper, and any remnants covered with ballast or groundcover. No need to remove all of the roadbed, so only half as much new cork required for the relocated curve. This works just as well if you need to widen a curve, too.
Wayne
I use #19 X 1/2" brads. Work as well as Atlas track nails at one quarter the cost for same quantity.. Purchase mine at my local Lowe's. They cost $1.30 per package compared to $5.95 for the Atlas track nails...
I use Liquid Nails to glue Kato HO Unitrack to the pink insulation foam, then scenic around it.
As compared to later Shinohara sectional curved track that I installed on the black foam Woodland Scenics roadbed when enlarging certain curves, the Kato Unitrack is actually very quiet once the scenery around it is glued down with white glue.
John
Bayfield Transfer Railway Doughless How do you drive spikes into 3/4 ply to secure your roadbed to the ply? Do you hit the spike really hard with the hammer, cuz I can barely drive anything into 3/4 ply or 3/4 MDF without bending it. I know track to roadbed is different, but as far as taking it up and changing radius or correcting mistakes, you have to move the roadbed too, so you have to renail the roadbed. I use small tacks and a tack hammer to secure the Homabed. I can pull the tacks out with a needle nose pliers, and if it makes a little gouge in the Homabed so what, the ballast will cover it.And for yards and industrial areas I glue a sheet of Homasote to plywood to cover the whole area. I laid an industrial park with 15 industries and 20 car spots in an afternoon.
Doughless How do you drive spikes into 3/4 ply to secure your roadbed to the ply? Do you hit the spike really hard with the hammer, cuz I can barely drive anything into 3/4 ply or 3/4 MDF without bending it. I know track to roadbed is different, but as far as taking it up and changing radius or correcting mistakes, you have to move the roadbed too, so you have to renail the roadbed.
How do you drive spikes into 3/4 ply to secure your roadbed to the ply? Do you hit the spike really hard with the hammer, cuz I can barely drive anything into 3/4 ply or 3/4 MDF without bending it.
I know track to roadbed is different, but as far as taking it up and changing radius or correcting mistakes, you have to move the roadbed too, so you have to renail the roadbed.
I use small tacks and a tack hammer to secure the Homabed. I can pull the tacks out with a needle nose pliers, and if it makes a little gouge in the Homabed so what, the ballast will cover it.And for yards and industrial areas I glue a sheet of Homasote to plywood to cover the whole area. I laid an industrial park with 15 industries and 20 car spots in an afternoon.
I guess the conversation veered off without me realizing it. Somewhere upstream, somebody mentioned pulling up nails and reinstalling them to realign track during construction. I realign things during construction too. However, I never find myself in a situation where I'm ONLY realigning the track on the roadbed, and not realigning the roadbed ALSO...track and roadbed together. So pulling up and reinstalling nails into 3/4 ply or MDF would be a little more work than what I would want. Especially if it takes a few iterations. With caulk, I use a putty knife to pry up, and even just wet the caulk and it gets sticky again, or use a little bit of caulk, and it carries the flex track to the new angle it since its still affixed to the roadbed.
That was my point of view. Reinstalling roadbed to slightly change the angle or radius of a curve of track, and I couldn't figure how you could deal with ply or MDF and avoid using a hammer.
If its just a matter of affixing track to the roadbed, yes, I understand. You don't need a hammer and using nails is as easy as pie. I just never had the reason to just realign the track and not the roadbed too, so that procedure never came to mind.
- Douglas
Randy, I have a tool similar to that which you mention, and it was what my dad used when he built my first layout when I was a kid. However, it has a wooden handle and was not intended to be used with a hammer, so no hammer was involved in the track laying, which was Atlas code 100 brass rail on fibre ties. Most of the turnouts were Atlas, too, built-up from kits - I still have the templates and instructions. He did scratchbuild a very nice #8 turnout, too. The layout was only a 4'x8', with a central control panel. All turnouts were manually controlled from the panel via cable, with working switchstands - I wish I still had the layout if only to see the mechanism for that in detail. Uncoupling was also remotely-controlled mechanically, using Kadee K-type couplers.
I have a fairly good collection of hammers, including tack hammers, ball peens in various sizes, framing hammers, trim hammers, metal-working hammers, and sledges, but any used on the layout would have been only to frame the support structure for the open-grid benchwork, as it's mostly 2"x4"s and larger....it was conveniently "left-over" when I built the house. I also managed to accidentally over-order select pine 1"x2" when building the kitchen cabinets, which proved useful when building the open grid sections, although most used 1"x4"s.
I just now looked for that track nail pusher, but can't seem to find it amid the clutter.
rrinker Never heard of nailing in the spikes? I'll have to see if I can find and post a picture of the tool that is olde rthan me that I used back in the days when I nailed my track in. It's like a nail set except that it is grooved to fit over HO spikes. We used to lay a lot of the track right on the plywood, and my Dad used it to hammer in spikes and I just followed along. The ony time I didn't need to hammer spikes in was the one N scale layout I built on Homasote - that one I could just push them in. There's no way I was just pushing spikes into plywood without a hammer (a small hobby one, not a big framing hammer). The Homasote layout I could jsut push them in by hand (and pull the track right up without first removing the track nails, I will add. I guess my definition of 'holding' is different than some people's - any fastener I can just pull out isn't 'holding' in my book). All the plywood based ones, HO and N, needed some tapping with the small hammer. The nail set tool kept the hammer away from the rails and prevented damage, the only danger was over-driving the nail and deformign the ties, but that wasn't hard to avoid. --Randy
Never heard of nailing in the spikes? I'll have to see if I can find and post a picture of the tool that is olde rthan me that I used back in the days when I nailed my track in. It's like a nail set except that it is grooved to fit over HO spikes. We used to lay a lot of the track right on the plywood, and my Dad used it to hammer in spikes and I just followed along. The ony time I didn't need to hammer spikes in was the one N scale layout I built on Homasote - that one I could just push them in. There's no way I was just pushing spikes into plywood without a hammer (a small hobby one, not a big framing hammer). The Homasote layout I could jsut push them in by hand (and pull the track right up without first removing the track nails, I will add. I guess my definition of 'holding' is different than some people's - any fastener I can just pull out isn't 'holding' in my book). All the plywood based ones, HO and N, needed some tapping with the small hammer. The nail set tool kept the hammer away from the rails and prevented damage, the only danger was over-driving the nail and deformign the ties, but that wasn't hard to avoid.
--Randy
Remember the old Kadee Spiker? I don't think I've laid eyes on one personally.
https://kadee.com/htmbord/spiker.htm
It looks like at least they still have parts for it?
I have heard of the tool that has the groove but I've had good enough luck using needle nose and/or a nail set to push spikes in but mostly I use them on Homasote area's so far. They hold well enough. I ran trains on all that rack no issues and track stayed put just fine. Will it hold up under Hurricaine Irma? Proabably not, but it holds fine while testing and shaking down and if you want permanent, after track is ballasted with adhesive, it's moot right? Even in yards.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
carl425I don't use nails anymore, but when I did I held them with a pair of needle nose pliers and whacked them with a tack hammer. As long as the jaws are thicker than the height of the rail, the hammer will hit the pliers before it can hit the track. After making sure the track was aligned the way I wanted it, I'd finish with a nail set.
I used to have a small narrow head hammer that worked great for track nails. It got lost among many moves from California to Indiana to Texas to Indiana to New York, back to Indiana, tack to New York and finally to Virginia. *whew*
One hammer that did survive is a small ball-pein hammer that is just right for hammering in Atlas track nails. I like that method so much continued using it on my most recent layout constructed 2014-2017. I typically hammer the nails in part way, and then use a nail-set with a small head that works perfectly for the Atlas track nails, to drive them to just above the tie surface.
When secured that way, the flex track has a slight bit wiggle room so I can sight down the rail and push it slightly this way or that to make sure it is aligned just the way I like it. Of course when ballasted and the ballast is glued, the track won't shift any more and I can pull out the nail so there is no visible nail head. A tiny bit of filler can be put in if any holes are visible and after the track is weathered you can't tell any offensive track nails were ever used. Spikes are also used but those look like they should and stay put.
These days I'm using caulk to hold the track to the Homasote roadbed and wood glue to hold the roadbed to the plywood subroadbed. I lay out center lines on the plywood and carefully glue down the roadbed. Track is held for curing with Ribbonrail alignment gauges.
I like nails because track is instantly secured and yet still slightly adjustable. I don't have to wait for glue or caulk to cure - which is nice.
Bobs your uncle!
Do it right the first time, no adjustment needed.
Even after building a 16x19' a 14x26' and a 10x18' layout, I still can't get it right the first time. More power to you if you can, but Murphy's law seems to get be part of my track laying process. On the last layout, I had to remove track and a bench work section twice to deal with some issues in the layout train room. Other times I've decide to revise some track after putting it down. Add to that I ended up having to take all my layouts down and move and having nailed all track, it was very easy to remove and preserve. Should I get much farther on the next layout, obviously track will get ballasted and glued and well, thats the goal right? Of course for those who Murphys law doesn't apply (I didn't think there were any) or who can get it right first time, maybe glue isn't so bad.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
The hammer I use is a small tack hammer used for upholstery. I have no problem driving nails into plywood or MDF. Like my old boss in construction said, "Hit it like you mean it!"
Use a nail set so you don't smash your thumb.
The nail puller I use is similar to this one:
Also instead of using needle nose plyers to remove nails might I suggest you use dykes because they might give you a better grip on the nail.
rrinkerNever heard of nailing in the spikes? I'll have to see if I can find and post a picture of the tool that is olde rthan me that I used back in the days when I nailed my track in. It's like a nail set except that it is grooved to fit over HO spikes.
Randy,I recall that tool but,never found the need to buy one because I usually use pine or cedar shelving board for my ISLs.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Seeing as my current layout is on foam, sewing pins. (Temporary until we move.)
My last layout, (until disassembled) was caulking.
Next layout I will again use the caulking.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I don't use nails anymore, but when I did I held them with a pair of needle nose pliers and whacked them with a tack hammer. As long as the jaws are thicker than the height of the rail, the hammer will hit the pliers before it can hit the track. After making sure the track was aligned the way I wanted it, I'd finish with a nail set.
These days I'm using caulk to hold the track to the Homasote roadbed and wood glue to hold the roadbed to the plywood subroadbed. I lay out center lines on the plywood and carefully glue down the roadbed. Track is held for curing with Ribbonrail alignment gauges. Do it right the first time, no adjustment needed.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Old Fat Robert Larry: I am intrigued. Can you perhaps, post a picture or two of your track/roadbed assembly? Do you rip the 1xbys to 4 or 5 inches wide? Thanks. Old Fat Robert
Larry: I am intrigued. Can you perhaps, post a picture or two of your track/roadbed assembly? Do you rip the 1xbys to 4 or 5 inches wide? Thanks.
Old Fat Robert
Robert,When I start construction on my newest ISL I will post photos in the weekly photo fun.
I will say this..I don't use roadbed since I'm modeling a industrial area where all track is at ground level.
.
This thread is the first time I've ever heard of anyone using a hammer to drive track nails. I use full-size blunt-nose pliers, and simply push the nails into place, whether the track is on cork, soft pine roadbed or plywood.On the original portion of the layout, I put down the cork using yellow carpenter's glue, then lightly tapped in 2½" nails every 6"-or-so. The next day, the nails were removed, usually by-hand.When I added a partial second level to the layout, I used contact cement to put down the cork, and where flex track and ready-made turnouts were used, track nails. In several places, I also used Central Valley tie strips, and put them down using contact cement, and also used it to secure the rails to the ties. All rail joints were soldered (the rail for the tie strips into 12' or 15' lengths prior to installation), then any necessary gaps cut later using a cut-off disc with a flexible shaft tool.Even track that's been soldered together and ballasted is easy to alter or remove simply by pulling the track nails using the same pliers that installed them, then re-heating any soldered joints and pushing the rail joiner past the joint. The area can then be sprayed generously with wet water, and after a few minutes, the track and tunouts lifted using a suitable scraper or putty knife. Any excess ballast stuck to the track can be washed off, and the track re-used, as illustrated below...
Pretty-well all of my industrial sidings have the track laid directly atop the plywood, as do all staging yards, and all (except that on CV ties) is held in place with track nails, pushed in using pliers.
Since a lot of this work was done at night, using a hammer would likely have instigated another use of a hammer, resulting in the original hammerer being cold-cocked/caulked.
DoughlessHow do you drive spikes into 3/4 ply to secure your roadbed to the ply? Do you hit the spike really hard with the hammer, cuz I can barely drive anything into 3/4 ply or 3/4 MDF without bending it.
I use 1" x 12" x 12' top grade finished pine board for my ISLs without roadbed. I use five or six inch needle nose pliers to spike with since the 1/2 inch spikes sinks easily into the pine..
Now,I spike nothing in place until I am happy with what I see and if I want a change I just pull the spikes out. The scenery and ballast comes after two or three operation sessions.
BRAKIE Bayfield Transfer Railway And I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon. I fully agree. I favor either a five or six inch needle nose pliers with or without a slot in the tip.
Bayfield Transfer Railway And I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon.
I fully agree. I favor either a five or six inch needle nose pliers with or without a slot in the tip.
Doughless Agreed about grey caulk. I've been meaning to find some.
Agreed about grey caulk. I've been meaning to find some.
I found gray, and darned-near every other color at Tru-Value Hardware.
Jim
Bayfield Transfer RailwayAnd I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon.
riogrande5761 Doughless Jim, this has been discussed before. Most folks who use caulk use the latex caulk product, not silicone. Latex caulk can be easily removed from track with water and a gentle scrubbing without damaging the track.....and that's considering that the caulk tends to not come up with the track at all, if a thin enough bead is used. We have and I haven't changed my tune - I stand by my arguements based on my own experience on 3 layouts so far. I really like my methods and don't like my track being glued down during early phases. It's just too easy (if there can be such a thing) to tweak or revise. No muss no fuss. Firstly, no water and no scrubbing necessary (no mess) with track nails and spikes, no "risk" even of damaging even some of it lifting up. No clean clean up. No fuss. Its about as easy to damage track uplifting it from caulked roadbed as it is to damage track when installing it with nails and a hammer. No, absolutely not. Hammer with a nail set you will not damage track or ties. I've never done it in 3 layouts and I am clumsy. To pull out, simply grab the head of the nail with needle nose pliers and pull. If it's stubborn and you can't get a grip, take a very fine flat head screw driver to pull it up a bit and then pull out with needle nose. They're about equal, IMO, and chosen based soley upon personal preference. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks.
Doughless Jim, this has been discussed before. Most folks who use caulk use the latex caulk product, not silicone. Latex caulk can be easily removed from track with water and a gentle scrubbing without damaging the track.....and that's considering that the caulk tends to not come up with the track at all, if a thin enough bead is used.
Jim, this has been discussed before. Most folks who use caulk use the latex caulk product, not silicone. Latex caulk can be easily removed from track with water and a gentle scrubbing without damaging the track.....and that's considering that the caulk tends to not come up with the track at all, if a thin enough bead is used.
We have and I haven't changed my tune - I stand by my arguements based on my own experience on 3 layouts so far. I really like my methods and don't like my track being glued down during early phases. It's just too easy (if there can be such a thing) to tweak or revise. No muss no fuss.
Firstly, no water and no scrubbing necessary (no mess) with track nails and spikes, no "risk" even of damaging even some of it lifting up. No clean clean up. No fuss.
Its about as easy to damage track uplifting it from caulked roadbed as it is to damage track when installing it with nails and a hammer.
No, absolutely not. Hammer with a nail set you will not damage track or ties. I've never done it in 3 layouts and I am clumsy. To pull out, simply grab the head of the nail with needle nose pliers and pull. If it's stubborn and you can't get a grip, take a very fine flat head screw driver to pull it up a bit and then pull out with needle nose.
They're about equal, IMO, and chosen based soley upon personal preference.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks.
I didn't think I was arguing an opinion of superiority or was searching for validation of a technique, I was trying to point out that there is nothing inherently damaging to track by installing or removing it when using latex caulk. It only damaging if its installed or removed incorrectly with caulk, just like nails.
I think learning how to use which method the right way is a matter of preference because there are other factors that go into it. What's important is to educate the readers about the benefits and pitfalls of each, which I think was at the root of the OPs question.
But considering I'll be using homabed on homasote on ply this time, I might find that using nails instead of caulk works better for me.
Last layout I started with foam and caulk and switched to Homasote and spikes halfway through.I'm never going back. I know I'm "against the trend," but phooey on gluing track down, and double phooey on foam board.
And I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon.
rrinker Yes, caulk for cork to base, then caulk for track to cork. I am strongly considering homasote (the milled roadbed stuff, not big sheets of it) for my next layout, not sure how well caulk will work with that. On turnouts, I place the most caulk near the frog end. The one place you do not want anythign sticky is around the throwbar area. I do try to get a little between the throwbar and the end of the turnout though so that end is held. There is definitely a right and wrong amount of caulk. I've been using a clear, which comes out white but turns clear as it cures. I will probably use a grey that somewhat matches my ballast color going forward. --Randy
Yes, caulk for cork to base, then caulk for track to cork.
I am strongly considering homasote (the milled roadbed stuff, not big sheets of it) for my next layout, not sure how well caulk will work with that.
On turnouts, I place the most caulk near the frog end. The one place you do not want anythign sticky is around the throwbar area. I do try to get a little between the throwbar and the end of the turnout though so that end is held.
There is definitely a right and wrong amount of caulk. I've been using a clear, which comes out white but turns clear as it cures. I will probably use a grey that somewhat matches my ballast color going forward.
riogrande5761 At least during the early phases, I am a firm believer in using track nails to secure cork and/or spikes to secure track to wood or homasote. So that means foam is not on the menu for subroadbed. As it happens, I have had to tear down two layouts before they got too far along and I was able to save roughly a thousand dollars of track to save in very good condition and re-use, because it was easy to pull up the spikes or track nailes and no adhesive had been used. I personally doubt I would have been able to save it all undamaged if I would have used adhesive. I also like nails and spikes because it is easy to make minor adjustments to track after securing because it isn't glued. It's simple to tweak a bit or remove nails and move. It's just so much more flexible to lay track and adjust it with nails and spikes. So what if you glued your track down and it was crooked or uneven. Are you good enough with adhesives to get it right and "dead-nuts" while the glue is drying? If so, your better than I am, and I'm not too bad. I'm very picky about how my track is laid and I like having as much control over that process as possible. OK sure, after I'm satisfied and have eyeballed it and tested it and given it a shake down, I can ballast, secure that with adhesive and pull any visible track nails out. By then yeah, its permanent. Put a fork in it and "Bob's your uncle". Definitely the track nail/spike method has saved me a lot of money by letting me re-use track too. But it's your money and your RR. Your the boss.
At least during the early phases, I am a firm believer in using track nails to secure cork and/or spikes to secure track to wood or homasote. So that means foam is not on the menu for subroadbed.
As it happens, I have had to tear down two layouts before they got too far along and I was able to save roughly a thousand dollars of track to save in very good condition and re-use, because it was easy to pull up the spikes or track nailes and no adhesive had been used. I personally doubt I would have been able to save it all undamaged if I would have used adhesive.
I also like nails and spikes because it is easy to make minor adjustments to track after securing because it isn't glued. It's simple to tweak a bit or remove nails and move. It's just so much more flexible to lay track and adjust it with nails and spikes.
So what if you glued your track down and it was crooked or uneven. Are you good enough with adhesives to get it right and "dead-nuts" while the glue is drying? If so, your better than I am, and I'm not too bad. I'm very picky about how my track is laid and I like having as much control over that process as possible. OK sure, after I'm satisfied and have eyeballed it and tested it and given it a shake down, I can ballast, secure that with adhesive and pull any visible track nails out. By then yeah, its permanent. Put a fork in it and "Bob's your uncle".
Definitely the track nail/spike method has saved me a lot of money by letting me re-use track too. But it's your money and your RR. Your the boss.
Certainly there is a bit more work to cleaning up a bit of caulk off of track then just pulling up nails, but I think its pretty hard to damage track by using caulk. Its about as easy to damage track uplifting it from caulked roadbed as it is to damage track when installing it with nails and a hammer.
There is a correct way and an incorrect way to install and remove track with either method. They're about equal, IMO, and chosen based soley upon personal preference.
I have plywood sub roadbed. I use wire nails. I never hit them directly with a hammer. I use a nail set and hit it with the hammer instead to avoid damage to the rails or my fingers. If I want to realign the track I can very easily by using a small nail puller to remove the wire nails. Often I can reuse the same nails.
It seems that this topic is quite similar to an earlier thread (copy n paste if link won't work): http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/242400/2698675.aspx
The bottom line: pick a method, try it and and move on. This applies to scenery, building structures, and the fastest way to send me unwanted freight cars!
I am strongly considering homasote (the milled roadbed stuff, not big sheets of it) for my next layout, not sure how well caulk will work with that. I have some sample pieces I should try. Ideally, I'd use homasote AND cork, my not too scientific tests had cork + homasote on plywood quieter than cork or homasote alone. The more layers of varying density... however it elevates the track way too much even for a main line to have both materials stacked up. The caulk adhesive layer may accomplish almost as much as an entire layer of a second roadbed.
On turnouts, I place the most caulk near the frog end. The one place you do not want anythign sticky is around the throwbar area. Given that is using under table switch motors, you typically have a hole drilled right there anyway, there's not much place to put caulk anyway. I do try to get a little between the throwbar and the end of the turnout though so that end is held.
There is definitely a right and wrong amount of caulk. I've been using a clear, which comes out white but turns clear as it cures. I will probably use a grey that somewhat matches my ballast color going forward. With the clear, the 'right' amount is to spread it out so the surface looks shiny, hard to tell it's even white at all. To get this, I cut the nozzle of the caulk tube as small as I can get it - there are rings around them where to cut for certain bead sizes, but the smallest is too big for railroad use. I need to use a piece of solid copper wire to poke through the inner foil seal because a hole big enough to run a nail or screwdriver in to piece the seal is going to be way too big. Less it more. If you look at my old layout, the 8x12 double track donut one, ALL of the roadbed and ALL of the track, except for the yard, took only 1 tube of caulk.