Sir MadogI resent that remark! My wife, just like me, has turned old(er), but every year she is dearer to me!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi Doughless:
I'm headed back up to work on the collection on Thursday. Tanja (pronounced Tanya) has said that she doesn't want to go the eBay route. Too much work. She wants to see what she can move at train shows over the next couple of years. I'm headed back up to see her on Thursday and I'm going to suggest that she ask $8.00 Cdn. each or 3 for $20.00 for the BB stuff. She is more focused on moving the stuff rather than getting the best possible price, but again, she is willing to do the work rather than cave in to a dealer for $0.10 on the dollar or less.
John Mock:
Thanks for the suggestion about approaching Howard Zane. I appreciate the cautions about dealing with other re-sellers. Tanja has said that they may just keep the brass for sentimental purposes, but I think she understood the need to insure it properly which is where Howard's opinions would be very helpful. I'll send him a PM.
I spent a couple of hours tonight searching for values and I did come across one gem. It is a pre-war Hornby clockwork engine and tender that has a reverse gear set up. It's worth about $300 according to the eBay 'sold' listings. It is in really good shape. I look forward to giving her the good news. The values for the rest of the stuff that I have found so far aren't spectacular, that is until you add them all up! I have priced a mere 17 items out of hundreds (yes I was cherry picking) and it adds up to about $1400. That is barely touching the surface.
More later.
Thanks again for your advice.
hon30critter Hi Doughless: I'm headed back up to work on the collection on Thursday. Tanja (pronounced Tanya) has said that she doesn't want to go the eBay route. Too much work. She wants to see what she can move at train shows over the next couple of years. I'm headed back up to see her on Thursday and I'm going to suggest that she ask $8.00 Cdn. each or 3 for $20.00 for the BB stuff. She is more focused on moving the stuff rather than getting the best possible price, but again, she is willing to do the work rather than cave in to a dealer for $0.10 on the dollar or less.
Great! If she is willing to move the product over two years, that should make it more convenient. Yes, Ebay is a lot of work.
I think the prices sound about right, which BTW, is probably at least as much...if not higher...than the price her husband paid for them. Unlike the junk, BB can easily accomodate kadee couplers and metal wheels and have decent detail, so as the prices of all rolling stock has risen over the years, used BB prices have risen too because they are basically the same car as the higher end stuff in many important ways.
- Douglas
We here all wish Tanja and the family the best. Maybe we will see them at the train shows. I am glad they are not in a rush and are considering keeping some of the brass.
When I saw a local brass collection sold quickly (seller was incarcerated and had to pay his legal fees) it actually went for 38 cents on the dollar to a "reputable" dealer. I had done the inventory and appraisal for my friend and his wife, and my prices averaged 2 percent difference from the selling dealer's listings on his website. My friend received about $18,000 for a $50,000 brass collection of about 125 items.
Fortunately for him some items were set aside not to be sold as he had articulateds in pieces being regeared, so he had a bunch of brass still onhand to sell later.
John
Sounds like your on the right track, donate/dump the junk and attractively price the decent plastic stuff an get tables at train shows. Nice thing about the Washington DC/Baltimore area is that there is four Timonium shows a year so lots of opportunities to set up tables and sell. Maybe in your area, hopefully there will be at least a couple of big shows, so in 2 years she can move the majority of the stuff and get a fair return without it being overly laborious.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
PRR8259 We here all wish Tanja and the family the best. Maybe we will see them at the train shows. I am glad they are not in a rush and are considering keeping some of the brass. When I saw a local brass collection sold quickly (seller was incarcerated and had to pay his legal fees) it actually went for 38 cents on the dollar to a "reputable" dealer. I had done the inventory and appraisal for my friend and his wife, and my prices averaged 2 percent difference from the selling dealer's listings on his website. My friend received about $18,000 for a $50,000 brass collection of about 125 items. Fortunately for him some items were set aside not to be sold as he had articulateds in pieces being regeared, so he had a bunch of brass still onhand to sell later. John
I don't begrudge any dealer buying product for "pennies" on the dollar. They have to make money, so the seller has to accomodate the middleman here. Also, most dealers are buying used items in bulk and are taking a lot of risk. They can't test or inspect every item to appease nitpicker buyers, so they have to make some assumptions that the items may have some issues with them, and priced to the market accordingly.
If they take the time to inspect every item and possibly even repair them before they resell it, then the seller of the estate should expect the dealer to get paid for his time repairing the items that were sold to him in bulk. JMO.
Selling higher end brass may allow a dealer to inspect and test each item, so maybe the seller should expect a higher price. But even with brass, not if they are sold in bulk, IMO.
hon30critterI'm headed back up to see her on Thursday and I'm going to suggest that she ask $8.00 Cdn. each or 3 for $20.00 for the BB stuff.
Dave, At the shows I attend BB and Roundhouse cars with KDs and metal wheels fetch $8-10.00 so,I think your price is in the ball park if they have KDs and metal wheels.BB and Roundhouse cars with KDs and plastic wheels fetch $5-6.00.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
DoughlessI don't begrudge any dealer buying product for "pennies" on the dollar. They have to make money, so the seller has to accomodate the middleman here. Also, most dealers are buying used items in bulk and are taking a lot of risk. They can't test or inspect every item to appease nitpicker buyers, so they have to make some assumptions that the items may have some issues with them, and priced to the market accordingly.
Absolutely.. I was more then happy to get a four figure amount for my stuff since the majority was BB cars and BB and some Athearn RTR locomotives.
I don't live in Fantasy Land and fully understood I got several dimes on the dollar in the lot price and still lost on the deal since I had far more in that stuff but,the majority of those cars and locomotives was bought used..
Doughless PRR8259 We here all wish Tanja and the family the best. Maybe we will see them at the train shows. I am glad they are not in a rush and are considering keeping some of the brass. When I saw a local brass collection sold quickly (seller was incarcerated and had to pay his legal fees) it actually went for 38 cents on the dollar to a "reputable" dealer. I had done the inventory and appraisal for my friend and his wife, and my prices averaged 2 percent difference from the selling dealer's listings on his website. My friend received about $18,000 for a $50,000 brass collection of about 125 items. Fortunately for him some items were set aside not to be sold as he had articulateds in pieces being regeared, so he had a bunch of brass still onhand to sell later. John I don't begrudge any dealer buying product for "pennies" on the dollar. They have to make money, so the seller has to accomodate the middleman here. Also, most dealers are buying used items in bulk and are taking a lot of risk. They can't test or inspect every item to appease nitpicker buyers, so they have to make some assumptions that the items may have some issues with them, and priced to the market accordingly. If they take the time to inspect every item and possibly even repair them before they resell it, then the seller of the estate should expect the dealer to get paid for his time repairing the items that were sold to him in bulk. JMO. Selling higher end brass may allow a dealer to inspect and test each item, so maybe the seller should expect a higher price. But even with brass, not if they are sold in bulk, IMO.
Sorry, I strongly disagree where related to brass transactions.
I have worked for train dealers, and have worked, also, specifically, for brass dealers. I understand they need to make a living and there is a needed profit margin. However, the price markup on an estate sale greatly favors the dealer who comes in and pays with a big wad of cash and takes it all. Perhaps acceptable for junk or less desirable items, but...
First, can you afford to throw away easily more than $20,000 on such a sale? The items would have sold, quite easily, for more than double what the dealer paid for them. His listing price on the website was 278% of what he had paid for the items. Would you want your heirs losing that much money? This is also why so many of the brass dealers are just gone now--sellers started using Ebay to sell their brass and save more of their own money. Also, many of the brass dealers just got old and retired or passed away.
What was not stated above is that I had done all the work necessary for the dealer. I had wrapped and boxed all the items; I was extremely familiar with the collection as I had often played with it. Everything sold in that sale was in mint condition, or it wasn't even offered to the dealer. Anything not complete and/or in a state of needing repair was set aside for another day. Everything ran just fine and was already in the correct box. All the dealer had to do was double check that I had the right item in the box, and he knew the collector and myself well enough to know that the stuff was in absolutely mint condition and would run just fine. He literally took it back to Maryland (no it was not Howard) unloaded it, and listed it on his website for sale. That's the only work he had to do. I had provided a detailed written inventory in a spreadsheet of each item, importer, and condition, etc. All he did was open each box and double check me. I may have had two cabooses in the wrong box (there were a lot of Overland coal road cabooses).
I stepped away when he discussed the financials with the seller, and was told after he left what he paid.
PRR8259 Doughless PRR8259 We here all wish Tanja and the family the best. Maybe we will see them at the train shows. I am glad they are not in a rush and are considering keeping some of the brass. When I saw a local brass collection sold quickly (seller was incarcerated and had to pay his legal fees) it actually went for 38 cents on the dollar to a "reputable" dealer. I had done the inventory and appraisal for my friend and his wife, and my prices averaged 2 percent difference from the selling dealer's listings on his website. My friend received about $18,000 for a $50,000 brass collection of about 125 items. Fortunately for him some items were set aside not to be sold as he had articulateds in pieces being regeared, so he had a bunch of brass still onhand to sell later. John I don't begrudge any dealer buying product for "pennies" on the dollar. They have to make money, so the seller has to accomodate the middleman here. Also, most dealers are buying used items in bulk and are taking a lot of risk. They can't test or inspect every item to appease nitpicker buyers, so they have to make some assumptions that the items may have some issues with them, and priced to the market accordingly. If they take the time to inspect every item and possibly even repair them before they resell it, then the seller of the estate should expect the dealer to get paid for his time repairing the items that were sold to him in bulk. JMO. Selling higher end brass may allow a dealer to inspect and test each item, so maybe the seller should expect a higher price. But even with brass, not if they are sold in bulk, IMO. Sorry, I strongly disagree where related to brass transactions. I have worked for train dealers, and have worked, also, specifically, for brass dealers. I understand they need to make a living and there is a needed profit margin. However, the price markup on an estate sale greatly favors the dealer who comes in and pays with a big wad of cash and takes it all. Perhaps acceptable for junk or less desirable items, but... First, can you afford to throw away easily more than $20,000 on such a sale? The items would have sold, quite easily, for more than double what the dealer paid for them. His listing price on the website was 278% of what he had paid for the items. Would you want your heirs losing that much money? This is also why so many of the brass dealers are just gone now--sellers started using Ebay to sell their brass and save more of their own money. Also, many of the brass dealers just got old and retired or passed away. What was not stated above is that I had done all the work necessary for the dealer. I had wrapped and boxed all the items; I was extremely familiar with the collection as I had often played with it. Everything sold in that sale was in mint condition, or it wasn't even offered to the dealer. Anything not complete and/or in a state of needing repair was set aside for another day. Everything ran just fine and was already in the correct box. All the dealer had to do was double check that I had the right item in the box, and he knew the collector and myself well enough to know that the stuff was in absolutely mint condition and would run just fine. He literally took it back to Maryland (no it was not Howard) unloaded it, and listed it on his website for sale. That's the only work he had to do. I had provided a detailed written inventory in a spreadsheet of each item, importer, and condition, etc. All he did was open each box and double check me. I may have had two cabooses in the wrong box (there were a lot of Overland coal road cabooses). I stepped away when he discussed the financials with the seller, and was told after he left what he paid. John
John, I can't say that I follow your specific situation, but I agree that no professional reseller of valuable items should take advantage of the unknowing. Kind of like the widow selling her husband's 1970 Hemi Cuda because she thinks is a gas hog. Reputable dealers buy valuable items for a good price, especially when an unprofessional person, like a widow, is selling something.
As far as one dealer being able to outbid another because they brought more cash to the sale, that's just professional competition. The other dealers should have been in a position to offer more for the same lot.
But it sounds like the brass estate sales market is too small to support a lot of dealers...that a small number of dealers have sort of a monopoly on buying estate sales in bulk...from a seller who wants to sell everything at once. That's never a good situation for a seller to be in.
And I don't know if I can call that unscrupulous. It seems like the market is illiquid, and the few dealers that play in that market don't have a lot of estates to buy, so they have to make their business live on the few estates that come up for bid.
Go e-bay, the market will tell you what its worth. Sometime junk will go for more than the good stuff, alot more.
rrebellGo e-bay, the market will tell you what its worth.
Hi rrebell:
I have been using eBay's 'sold' prices for what I have priced so far.
PRR8259:
I will pass on your wishes for the family. I'm sure they will be much appreciated.
You won't see Tanja at any shows in the US. She lives in Huntsville, Ontario which is 2 1/2 hrs north of Toronto. The closest sale is our own show in Barrie in February and she has already booked a couple of tables. I'm going to suggest that she book three given the sheer volume of stuff that she has to sell.
Brakie:
Thanks for reminding me about the pricing difference between BB cars that are straight out of the box and the ones that have been upgraded.
Everyone:
Thanks for all the information on the brass stuff. I'm pretty sure that Tanja intends to keep the collection but she does need to establish a value for insurance purposes. I found out that Credit Valley Railway, which is close to Toronto, will evaluate brass so she doesn't have to go to Mr. Zane.
On Thursday four of us from the club went up to do more work on the collection. I took my 35mm camera and re-photographed all the stuff that we didn't want to put a value on. I had taken pictures with my iPhone on Tuesday but the phone wouldn't talk to my computer so the pictures couldn't be used. To give you an idea of how many pictures I took with the 35mm, I killed the freshly charged battery in six hours. The camera normally goes for several months before needing to be re-charged.
We spent about six hours testing locomotives and there are still more to be done. Unfortunately were ended up with about 40 locomotives that were not running. We suggested that Tanja just put them in a grab box and ask $5.00 - $10.00 ea. We also had several that 'ran' but sounded awful. There were about 60 locomotives, maybe more, that ran quite nicely although they all would need to be cleaned and lubed.
All of your help is much appreciated!
Cheers!
Dougless--
Sorry if my posts above were confusing. In the case of the one estate, my friend wanted only the one dealer to be contacted, but the dealer certainly made a healthy profit.
Yes, you are correct that brass is a "smaller" market. Yet each day brasstrains.com gets a lot of models in the door, or at least lists a lot of models that had come in previously. There were a large number of less than scrupulous brass dealers, many of whom did it on the side, as a hobby or perhaps retirement secondary income, and had no real physical store front. Surely some, like Thomas Cornwall of Mountaineer Brass, were indeed very honest and very reputable. However, for every Thomas Cornwall (rest his soul) there were others like Classic Trains International that were unscrupulous and quickly got cut off by major importers for their outright dishonesty to customers.
Ebay has helped to weed out many of the less well-known or perhaps less scrupulous dealers. However even of those who are still in business, there are folks who deliberately low-ball anyone, like myself, attempting to sell models. I was most unhappy at the last Timonium show. Howard was away, and of the dealers who were there in attendance, the brass dealers were trying to pretty much steal what I had for sale. I got all kinds of interesting and very creative stories about what my items were worth, and what dealer net on those items was alleged to be, that were actually flat out lies.
I passed, and did much, much better on Ebay...as in easily more than a thousand dollars better, within a couple weeks, and got paid without having to take trades, or lies.
DoughlessThe daughter can list any 55 ft or smaller BB car for a 7 day listing at $8 plus $5.95 Small Flat Rate box and it will sell. If she has the time, she can sell one at a time.
The OP already stated that it's too much work to list individual models on Ebay to sell, and I don't blame here for that. With all the stuff she has, it would be a lot of work, especially for someone who doesn't play with Ebay and have that system down like the back of their hand. I used to sell on Ebay before I switched to selling on the Yahoo groups, and to me it was a hassle to go through all the steps, take photo's, upload them, yada yada and the fee's have gone up since then too. No thanks.
riogrande5761 Doughless The daughter can list any 55 ft or smaller BB car for a 7 day listing at $8 plus $5.95 Small Flat Rate box and it will sell. If she has the time, she can sell one at a time. The OP already stated that it's too much work to list individual models on Ebay to sell, and I don't blame here for that. With all the stuff she has, it would be a lot of work, especially for someone who doesn't play with Ebay and have that system down like the back of their hand. I used to sell on Ebay before I switched to selling on the Yahoo groups, and to me it was a hassle to go through all the steps, take photo's, upload them, yada yada and the fee's have gone up since then too. No thanks.
Doughless The daughter can list any 55 ft or smaller BB car for a 7 day listing at $8 plus $5.95 Small Flat Rate box and it will sell. If she has the time, she can sell one at a time.
Well, as helpful folks are, if she ever changes her mind she has a reference. No point in advising her to walk away from selling BB stuff without providing facts over opinion.
Just to give you a little more information on Tanja's situation, she is working full time and she is a single mom, so she really doesn't have hours and hours to spend liquidating the collection. She is also not in a hurry. If it takes a few years at the shows, so be it.
John,
Just read your note....thanks for kind words. Now at almost 80, I have forgotten more than what I once knew about brass since I sold Brasstrains.com to Dan Glasure in '05. Dan, who once called me for almost a year after the sale for pricing advice has now left me in the dust as far as all around knowledge of brass models and in other scales as well. My field of expertise was only in HO brass. so I would say that Dan is by far now the best in all around brass knowledge.
I cannot emphasise enough the importance of acquiring a good apprasial for person who inherits a pile of brass models and who has very little knowlege on the subject. True, I offered a choice to seller....appraisal or bid, but never both. Or the seller could seek several bids from reputable dealers and then interpolate knowing that the bids today would reflect approximately 50% of street value.
Brass once two decades back would fetch 60-70% of retail depending on several obvious factors. Law of supply and demand has ticked in.
HZ
Hi,
Hate to add in the obvious........More and more of us "war babies" and baby boomers are moving on to that great roundhouse in the sky, leaving behind accumulations of Lionel, Flyer, brass HO, and so on. Typically, our kids or loved ones aren't interested in them - except of course to convert to $$$$.
So like the man said, supply is more and more overshadowing demand, and prices are slowly falling. I say this as a generalization, as the market for pristine items with box and packaging will still stay up there!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Pawn shops and other second hand stores appraise the value of an item by searching for it on eBay because it is the best example of a free market place with many buyers and sellers. However do not go by what people are asking for because that is not the true value. Many sellers are trying to hit a homerun with their asking price. There is a box to check which will result in only showing the completed items which have sold. That is the value. It varies from day to day and even from listing to listing depending on condition of the item and how well it was presented, also what day of the week it sold and what time of day come into play. But you can use the listings to get an average.
Yes, value is very subjective, not a constant, and influenced by so many variables.
The old saying "an item is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it" sure holds a lot of water.
I think Howard was being humble above...he may have forgotten some things, sure, but he knew more than most ever will know about HO brass.
I must caution about using Ebay prices: In many cases sellers on Ebay do not know what it is they are selling, do not know much about the models at all, do not describe it adequately, and do not photograph it well. I have been able to buy and flip (this year) the occasional model for hundreds of dollars more--also on Ebay--for the exact same model that somebody had listed "poorly", as a result. So averaging of selling prices would be recommended.
Other models are so legitimately scarce and difficult to find that they seldom appear on Ebay--so what is somebody looking for a price to do?
One alternative is to do a Google search for the manufacturer and catalogue number of the item, if you know the catalogue or item number. The Google search may find the last time Dan Glasure (brasstrains.com) or other dealers sold that particular model (and will turn up pages of Dan's website that have been archived from normal viewing). Also, you can provide an email address and, for free, become a member of Dan's website, where he tracks historical price data--the prices THEY have sold the models for, which may actually be higher than what some other dealers could actually get for the same items, due to their reputation.
Obviously this takes a little time and commitment, but is worth it for scarce brass items, as it DOES pay off.
To the right buyer, some items are worth hundreds of dollars more than some might think. You just have to find that buyer.
Howard:
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to the thread. I have already suggested that she sign up to the Brasstrains website. I think that is as far as I will go in terms of establishing values, for the brass stuff at least.
Thanks to the others who have pitched in recently too.
Cheers!!