This basic question has probably been asked a million times, but here goes... My 10-yr-old has a very basic HO model train set. Over the last few years, he's collected inexpensive train cars (in the $20-$50 range). He now has a small collection of cars that have broken couplers. I ASSUMED it would be no big deal to replace them, but it turns out there are about 10,000 different types and sizes. As we take apart our HO scale car couplers, we notice that they each have different sized couplers...even though they are all HO scale train cars. We stopped in a HobbyTown USA store today, and the guy said "Here, these Horn Hooks are probably going to work better for you. They will hold the cars together much better." So I get home and realize that in order for us to use them, we'll have to change ALL our couplers to Horn Hooks. I guess my question is, is there a standard size coupler that we can buy that will work with any of our HO scale train cars? I've read that Kadee couplers are the most durable, but it looks like they have about 10 different HO scale couplers. How do we know which ones to get? Or...are we going to have to figure out each car's couplers size? I LOVE that my son has such a passion for all this, and I don't want my ignorance to get in the way! Ha!
Greetings, Mom -
Yes, Kadee makes a very durable coupler and would be a good choice for standardizing your son's rolling stock (train cars). And, with few exceptions, the Kadee #5 coupler will fit just about every piece of rolling stock your son owns. If you can find out specifically which manufacturer and car-type your son has, Kadee has a handy conversion page for figuring that out on their website.
Hope that helps...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Kadee has charts on their web site listing various makes of cars adn what couplers fit them. Most newer stuff, excpet for the truck-mounted couplers in train set clas equipment, will take a #5, or the #148 whisker version which is much easier to work with. Outside of that, there is no one size fits all because different manuafacturers attached the couplers at different heihgts and in different ways, this was no standard that was followerd, and that is why Kadee has so many different couplers. It's important they all be at the same height so the cars stay coupled together reliably. You will also want to get the Kadee height gauge to check that. Kadee also has two thicknesses of washers you stuck between the truck and the car bolster and then screw the truck screw back in. If the difference is minor, you can use one of these washers to raise the car up a bit. If it takes more than one washer, looks for alternative ways to adjust the height like the offset shank versions of the coupler, because too many washers will make the car wobbly and/or the truck not stay on securely.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Most modelers use Kadee couplers. They come in a large number of styles and types to fit many different cars. Their website has a coupler conversion chart; so, if you know who made the car, you can find a coupler to fit. You will see a lot of locomotives listed, then something like 'all boxcars' to cover freight carshttps://kadee.com/conv/hocc.htm
The basic coupler that fits most freight cars is the #5, or the #148 wisker coupler which is a newer style one piece coupler that has the same dimensions as the #5. If you have a lot of cars to do, Kadee sells bulk packs with 10 or 20 pairs of couplers which is a more economical way to go than buying singly
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Hornhook couplers used to be sold with most cars years ago. Now they are mostly used by folks with lots of cars from 20+ years old. Don't try to use them now.
The standard coupler is the KD #5 and the KD #148. The diffrence is in the centering spring. The #5 uses a separate spring piece, the #148 uses an attached whisker spring. Other couplers are for special situations. Most use the same head as the #5/#148 but have the shanks mounted to the top or the bottom of the couplers. Others use extra long or extra short shanks.
I would suggest using the #148 with the built in whisker spring as it is a little easier to install than the #5 with separate spring. Use other couplers only if you have a special situation for a particular car. In many cases you can use the existing coupler box on the car. If the KD doesn't fit, then you'll need to use KD's coupler box. KD's couplers are sold with and without boxes, and boxes are sold separately.
When you install the couplers use a height gauge. KD makes one that is easy to use. You want all your couplers at the same height. Where a coupler is not the right height you can add washers to the trucks for slight changes in height or use the couplers with the shank mounted at the top or bottom of the coupler. KD's HO coupler page here can show which numbers they are. Personally, I have found the #5 or #148 to work in all my applications.
There are knock off couplers like the ones that came with your son's cars, but as you have found, they don't last as long.
Good luck
Paul
You will never go wrong going with KD #5 or the #148 which is the whisker equivalent. It is the gold standard of couplers. When I got into the hobby, horn hooks were the standard and KD was the primary alternative. About 20-25 years ago, knock offs of KD couplers came onto the market and knuckle couplers became the new standard for HO. None of these hold a candle to KD in reliability. Most RTR equipment now comes with some kind of knuckle coupler which are rarely KDs. When I buy a new piece of rolling stock, I immediately replace the couplers with KDs.
You can find cheaper couplers than KD but you won't find any better. Do yourself a favor and go with KDs. You won't regret it.
As an option, KD makes a smaller sized coupler which is closer to scale size. While these too are well made, the smaller size can be a problem if your track or your coupler height is less than perfect. It can result in unwanted uncoupling. I experimented with those but came back to the #5 and #148.
NYBW-JohnYou can find cheaper couplers than KD but you won't find any better.
That is not entirely true. I found a better and cheaper coupler, but it is incompatible with Kadee. It operates and looks like the real thing.
I said that "Kadee #5s where the best couplers, why would I ever need to change them out". I then met a guy who uses Sergent Couplers. Now I use Sergent Couplers. I have about 30-40 cars left to convert over, most of which were early aquisitions or Intermountain cars, both have glued coupler boxes.
The biggest take away is to always use some sort of mechanical fastner for coupler boxes, not glue. You never know when you might have to change a coupler. Kadees can in fact be broken, just like any other coupler. Its just a lot less likely to happen.
For those who are extolling the virtues of KD couplers, I want to join the club. I prefer #148 because of the ease of installation compared to the #5. And, if you are really stuck, check the KD couplers web site and send Sam the KD Answer Man a message. He is wonderful.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
A little history here. Back in the 1950's the National Model Railroad Assn (NMRA) designed the horn hook coupler. Athough they failed to get it approved as a official NMRA design, the industry adopted it because it was cheap to manufacture (one molded plastic part) standard (would couple with other makers rolling stock), looked OK, and no patent restrictions or royalties. About the same time Kadee introduced their knuckle coupler. It was patented and Kadee wanted $2 a pair for them so the industry never adopted it as too expensive. But everyone agreed that Kadee's looked better, and worked better, especially remote uncoupling. In the late 1990's Kadee's patents finally expired, and the industry started making clones of Kadee knuckle couplers, which would intermate with Kadees and uncouple on Kadee magnetic uncoupling ramps. At this time all new production rolling stock comes from the factory with clones of the Kadee coupler. They are pretty good, I run them until they break.
Last time I looked, hobby shops all carried Kadee couplers, either two pair packs or 20 pair packs at about $2 a pair. They sometimes carry clones of the Kadee coupler for the same price. So why not buy the best, original Kadee's?
As others have mentioned, a #5 Kadee or the whisker equivalent will fit most freight cars. It is possible to warp a #5 coupler into anything, but you will save a lot of filing, hacking, and cussing if you check the Kadee what-fits-what list and buy the recommended coupler, especially for locomotives, passenger cars, and long rolling stock. Be aware that locomotives need electrically insulated couplers, either all plastic couplers, or an all plastic coupler mounting box.
Most people replace truck mounted couplers with body mounted couplers. Body mount couplers prevent derailments while backing. I retain truck mounted couplers on passenger cars and other long rolling stock because truck mounts ease the long rolling stock around sharp (18") curves where body mounts tend to pull the car off the track.
Good luck.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Gidday HOTrainmom, to the Forum. It all depends on how far your son goes, or stays, in the hobby because while Kadees are my coupler of choice, at 10 years old and possibly with a limited budget, if you’ve been given free horn hooks, they will work well. However, if your young bloke is far more discerning than I was (am) he may wish to refer to the Kadee HO scale conversions, that has been already linked to. Have Fun, Cheers, the Bear.
I agree with Bear. I have used horn hooks for years before I could afford Kadees. You can find them dirt cheap on Ebay. If the fella gets more serious about the hobby he can convert later once he gets a job ☺.
On the flip side, it may be cheaper to convert now with only 10-20 pieces of rolling stock than 150-200 10 years from now. I guess the real question is how many pieces does the lad currently have?
I use Kadee #5's and #148's.
Any others I should use?
ATSFGuy I use Kadee #5's and #148's. Any others I should use?
Only if you have an oddball coupler pocket. Athearn blue box F-units come to mind.
Hello all,
This is a huge can of worms!
Unless the car(s) came with XF2s (Hook & Horn) I would not use them. Even if they did I would swap them out for Kadees.
My coupler of preference is the venerable #5. Simples, inexpensive and reliable.
I would not recommend Hobby Town USA. Try and find a hobby shop that specializes in model trains. (These are becoming harder and harder to find, unfortunately!)
Depending on where you live you might look for train shows in your area. Some of the larger shows have representatives from the various manufactureres.
A reputable vendor will also take the time to assist you in your questions. Take a sample of the cars; probably the worst of the lot, and ask for advice.
It never hurts if you purchase from the vendor that helped the most. Many vendors also have a web or eBay presence.
If you have established a relationship with them then continue to patronize them and don't be afraid to mention how much they helped you and your son.
There are also some basic tools you will need to invest in. But once purchased, a quality tool should not have to be replaced unless abused.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I'm not sure I would call a $50 car inexpensive.
That said, the owner is 10 years old. Is he going to take care of his trains or is he going to throw them in a cardboard box at the end of the day? Is he going to enjoy doing coupler conversions or does he want mom or dad to do it?
Is this going to be a hobby that lasts a lifetime or is he going to going to college on a video electronic game scholarship? A horn hook on one end and a Kadee on the other might be the most cost efficient way to manage this as a short term solution.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
The X2F couplers will couple easily, but getting them uncoupled without the active ramp they were designed for is an adventure. Kadee uncoupling magnets don't make contact with the coupler trip pins, so there's a certain degree of forgiveness there.
I personally use Kadees, but will install (or leave installed) Kadee clones that come with things I intend to kitbash. I run short trains of free-rolling cars, so some of those clones have survived. Others have died and been replaced with real Kadees, both ends of the car. And some cars, parts of permanent cuts or unit trains, are coupled with truly ancient Kadee K (pre-magnetic) couplers. My unit train brake vans have K couplers on the hopper end and MKD-5s on the cabin end.
If you create a transition car, I would respectfully suggest that you replace a horn-hook with a Kadee, not vice-versa. That way the time spent will save time later.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
HOTrainmom,The advice you got from the Hobbytown USA store employee is pretty bad. X2F "Horn hook" couplers were a plague on our hobby once upon a time. I used them as a kid back in the 1980's and they can actually cause derailments due to their nature of pushing only one way vs. being centered like a Kadee. Backing up a train with horn hooks could be an adventure.
I would take all future advice given by such an individual with large grain of salt. He sounds like someone who is not a model railroader.
Regarding the coupler issue, I have some Walthers Superliners form 2001/2002 and I was wondering what type of coupler to use with them
ATSFGuy Regarding the coupler issue, I have some Walthers Superliners form 2001/2002 and I was wondering what type of coupler to use with them
https://kadee.com/conv/hocc.htm
Welcome to the forums.
You have received a lot of good advice. I'm not sure where you have found that many different types of couplers, but i know there are a few.
Personally I am using KD #148's for their ease of mounting.
I will admit that I did not read every word of advice, so this may be repetition. You do not have to convert all your couplers at once to use more of the rolling stock. It takes paying attention to which cars are which, but if you have one or two cars with the one different type of couplers on each end, you can connect a string of cars with KD's to a string with hook horns and pull them successfully. Use the two most popular types that you have, so that the most cars can be active on the layout.
One thing I did not see discussed is that there are two methods of mounting couplers. The preferred method is the coupler is mounted in a box attached right to the car body. The other common method is the coupler is mounted to the trucks (wheel assembly). I would suggest changing these last, as they take the most work. I prefer to cut off the "arm" that the coupler is mounted on and purchase coupler boxes, mount them to the car and install the new coupler in them.
Thank you for helping your son. My mother would have loved to help me, if we had had the finincial ability to do more, but such is life.
Again, welcome and don't be afraid to ask more questions, there are many folks here ready and willing to answer questions and make suggestions.
Good luck,
Richard
If somebody has mentioned this already I apologize for missing it. KD's coupler gauge is an invaluable tool for checking coupler height as well as the trip pins. Couplers with incorrect heights are an endless source of problems. Athearn's old BB kits were notoriously bad for this. It was many years later that I learned the reason for this was that the metal weight was often bowed and when attached to the floor of the freight car, the plastic frame would also bow. Depending on whether it bowed up or down, you would get a coupler that was either too high or too low. Athearn no long makes shake-the-box kits so this is no longer a concern. Accurail has filled that void and I don't see the problem with their kits that Athearn had.
The KD #5 or #148 is the all around coupler.. Athearn Blue Box locomotives requires KD #38 couplers with coupler box.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Paul3The advice you got from the Hobbytown USA store employee is pretty bad. X2F "Horn hook" couplers were a plague on our hobby once upon a time. I used them as a kid back in the 1980's and they can actually cause derailments due to their nature of pushing only one way vs. being centered like a Kadee. Backing up a train with horn hooks could be an adventure.
Sorry Paul,when properly mounted the X2F worked quite well..The train set X2F couplers mounted on the trucks caused far more grief then the body mounted X2F..
HOTrainmom, I wholeheartedly agree with all of the advice given by all of the other posts especially about Hobbytown USA. Anybody who advises conversion to horn/hook or X2f couplers in today's world does not know what they are talking about! Please try to find a better hobby shop, preferably one that specializes in trains. I want to focus on another aspect of your issue. At ten years old it is time for the young man to become comfortable using basic handtools and accomplishing simple tasks with them. His success will give him self confidence and the courage to accept greater challenges in the hobby and other aspects of his life as well. It is time for the young lad to have a couple of screwdrivers for removing and installing said screws in coupler box installation and replacement. He should also have a pinvise and some drill bits and common sized taps or, stick to self tapping screws. Add a razor saw and some files and he will be well on his way. If he loses interest but does not destroy these items, they will prove handy for a lot of household repairs so, the investment won't be wasted. Encourage the young man to develope new skills in the use of his hands and mind. His gradtitude will be eternal. Happy modeling.
The guy at the store knows nothing. Here is a quick look at Kadee H.O. scale couplers. Use #5 centered medium shank couplers for most cars. #148 is the same except for the springs are built in. Use over shank if the coupler is too high as compared to the height gauge. Use under shank if the coupler is too low. This is common for Athearn Blue Box kit locomotives. GPs are high while SDs are low. Use long shanks for locomotives with snowplows.
Over: Med. #22 Long #29Center: Med #5 Long #26Under: Med #27 Long #21
To replace truck mounted couplers use #148 with #212 Talgo Truck Adaptors. You might have to trim the whisker springs a little bit to make them work better. Or else you can cut off the coupler pocket with a razor knife and glue a 0.040" piece of styrene to the body and glue a #5 coupler box onto it.
To replace Rivarossi (AHM) style truck mounted couplers use Athearn McHenry #56 for freight cars or #52 for passenger cars.
I hope this helps.
P.S. Don't expect your average hobby/arts and crafts store to have these items in stock. You have to go to a model train store or buy them online.
Bachmann EZ mate II couplers are ok. I've been using them since the 1990s as well as Kadees because the price was right when I bought them. They are the ones with the spring that keeps the coupler closed. It's the original ones with the middle finger that suck because the finger gets bent and won't hold the coupler closed.
They came with Bachmann EZ mate couplers. You can replace them with EZ mate II or Kadee #5 or #148.
NHTXAnybody who advises conversion to horn/hook or X2f couplers in today's world does not know what they are talking about!
Unless they have hands on experience with X2F coupler and know they work quite well when correctly body mounted..
I fully understand most modelers experience with X2F couplers was their cheap train set truck mounted X2F coupler.