hey everyone,
I am about to start my layout and want some tips for things to avoid. Sorry if a post like this exists I'm not the one to search around.
Hi Alexander:
This thread could get quite voluminous if everybody is willing to admit their mistakes!
Let me take a stab. The * indicates which ones I have been guilty of:
- Radii that are too tight for your rolling stock,
- 'S' curves,
- Reach in distances that are too long*,
- Not having enough feeders,
- Poor trackwork, i.e. kinks, wobbles,
- Trying to fit too much track into the available space*,
- Unrealistic track planning, i.e. drawing turnouts that won't actually fit in the space,
- Grades that are too steep,
- Getting ballast and glue in the moving parts of your turnouts,
- Buying everything that appeals to you on the spur of the moment*,
- Buying poor quality locomotives or cars because they look like bargains*,
- Not knowing what stuff is worth before you buy it. In other words, don't pay $150 for a locomotive which is commonly sold for $75*,
- Not using Kadee couplers,
I'll quit there, but I'm sure that others will have lots more recommendations.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Buy John Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation. Even if you have zero interest in operation- its invaluable For planning. Read it, sketch some layouts, read it again, sketch some more. By the time you have a track plan that works for your needs and your space, it's a strong possibility you will look back at the first sketch(s) and say "wow, that was dumb." I certainly did.
DrumguyBy the time you have a track plan that works for your needs and your space, it's a strong possibility you will look back at the first sketch(s) and say "wow, that was dumb." I certainly did.
Me too! Ignorance was bliss. Armstrong's book is a must!
Alexander Sorry if a post like this exists I'm not the one to search around.
Sorry if a post like this exists I'm not the one to search around.
Why?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
As I am dismantling my 10x18' layout, am thinking about lessons learned. This was a good practice run for a future and bigger (hopefully) layout after I move.
One thing I did on this layout which really isn't realistic is the mainline was not elevated high enough above the surrounding landscape. Real railroad mainlines are elevated well above surrounding area for drainange. My only elevation came from the cork subroadbed. A good layout to review that did incorporate elevated grade is Rob Spanglers layout.
Other lessons learned:
- when applying plaster over the plaster gauz, wet the gauz down well with water. Otherwise it will dry the plaster out so fast it's hard to work with. Same thing when painting latex base color over plaster, wet the hardened plaster again as paint will form a rubbery coat and not cover well.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Alexander hey everyone, I am about to start my layout and want some tips for things to avoid. Sorry if a post like this exists I'm not the one to search around.
There's certainly nothing as sweet looking as a "S" curve but,like all track it must be properly laid for trouble free operation with at least two long cars between the curves of the "S".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
John Armstrong discusses the possible evils of the S curve in his Track Planning For Realistic Operation. Everyone designing a track plan should be sure to read his section on S curves to avoid trouble.
Don't forget, S curve problems can creep in easily where you are laying sidings and turnouts, depending on configuration - JA discuses those too.
IF there's any possibility of in future moving the layout, build it so sections can be moved. I failed to do that and may regret it. It would have been easy to do with little trouble, especially on the framing.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
tstage Why?
Simplily because this website is gigantic. Looking for a specific disscusion is like looking for a wheel of cheese in a tub of Wheels of cheese. And yes, I'll have to make sure I read that book. Sounds very useful and I am also interested in operation.
peahrens IF there's any possibility of in future moving the layout, build it so sections can be moved. I failed to do that and may regret it. It would have been easy to do with little trouble, especially on the framing.
That sounds like a good idea but so far I haven't found it really works, unless you have a small layout and then if you got a bigger space, you would want to build a bigger layout anyway.
Here is my real life experience with the idea of moving layouts built in sections:
I built a 16x19' foot layout in my garage in Indiana and it was built in sections to allow it to be moved. The house I was moving to after leaving Indiana would not hold that layout - I knew the space there it wouldn't fit. So I did manage to sell that layout to someone who could fit it - it was hauled away in a U-haul and ready to be scenic'd by the buyer.
So I guess you could say it was good to build the layout in sections, although I wasn't able to use it in a future house, I was able to sell it to someone who could and use the cash for a future layout. Ultimately building a sectional layout didn't allow me to move to a future home.
In the house I moved too, I built the next layout which was semi-sectional because part of it was built over the top of permanent storage shelves that remained after I left. I did have to tear that layout down but didn't save anything since I wasn't moving to a place that I could use it.
My current layout, which is coming down for a move, was built sectional of course, but I my goal in the next location isn't to have the same layout (I don't want a duck under next time with hopefully larger layout) and I fully expect the space to be different, so even if I kept the same layout and moved it, I'd change things radically anyway so moving the same layout and using it is not going to happen.
IMO, it would be a very rare cirumstance for anyone to simply break a layout down, move it, and set it up in a new homeand be satisfied with that. David Barrow of the Cat Mountain & Santa Fe fame explored something like your idea with his domino series in MR magazine back in the 1990's but it's not for everyone. So your off the hook for regrets really.
Here is what I am doing with my current layout thats being dismantled: I'm removing all the track and boxing it up for re-use. As for the layout itself, all scenery and subroad bed is going to trash, but the basic open grid benchwork frames are being saved, as well as the legs and braces. I'm also saving some of the risers into a box of wood as I should be able to re-use some of that. I expect in some way shape or form, I'll be able to reused most of them. What I'm talking about are basic open grid frames constructed of 1x4 lumber with 1x3 cross members. They don't take up that much space and are lightweight and easy to move. I have a couple of bigger 2x8' frames with OSB attached and Homasote I hope to re-use as well for parts of a future layout. They are long but fairly narrow, so movable.
I'm trying to be the ultimate recycler for materials and hardware. I've saved most of the drywall screws, carriage bolts, unbent track nails and spikes, rail joiners and any other re-usable hardware. Most of that stuff can be re-used and will cost money to replace - thats money in my pocket. I could have taken a sledge hammer and destroyed it all but it's not taking that much longer to save re-useable hardware. Out of 7 layout sections, I took the three with scenery down completely, saving everything possible in one day. It will probably take a couple more days to do the same with the last 4 sections, which are basically double-decked.
Really thats about as good as I think you can get in most cases.
Didn't smooth the cork roadbed top enough before laying track (bumps).
Curves that go too close to the edge of the benchwork for comfort
Not enough electrical feeders (i.e., i relied too much on rail joiners).
Joints between turnouts and track that had small but meaningful "kinks" (it looked harmless. It wasn't harmless).
Not letting the lumber get accustomed to my basement before starting to build with it.
Economized too much with overhead lighting ("eh - it's bright enough, I can skip a fluurescent fixture here").
Keeping enough notes about wiring ("I'll always remember wiring that segment it was such a bear")
And the list could go on.
Dave Nelson
riogrande5761Don't forget, S curve problems can creep in easily where you are laying sidings and turnouts, depending on configuration - JA discuses those too.
Jim,There's way to much ado over those micro "S" curves found in some sidings and yard tracks. I been building ISLs since the 60s and some had those micro "S" curves that JA speaks of.. I never had any issues with sidings that had those micro "S" curves at slow switching speeds.
Our models are far more forgiving then we been lead to believe. Even Atlas snap switch crossovers work.They're not pretty due to that ridiculous sharp S curve between the switches.
Jim,There's way to much ado over those micro "S" curves found in some sidings and yard tracks. I been building ISLs since the 60s and some had those micro "S" curves that JA speaks of.. I never had any issues with sidings that had those micro "S" curves at slow switching speeds. Our models are far more forgiving then we been lead to believe. Even Atlas snap switch crossovers work.They're not pretty due to that ridiculous sharp S curve between the switches.
Larry No need to preach to the choir , as always, YMMV.
To everyone else, read John Armstrong's advise on S curves and take it for what it's worth. He was a mechanical engineer afterall. Sure, HO models are not real trains but they are affected by unfriendly track configuration.
The S curve issues pointed out by JA are very good advise to be aware of. In some cases, it's a simple change of configuration to eliminate an S curve at the entrance of a siding by changing from a RH to a LH turnout. You might as well do it and it may prevent issues where long cars are concerned. Why not stack the deck in your favor?
Yards? Obviously yards are full of S curves so all you can do is minimize the effect there by choosing turnouts that will cause the least mischief with long rolling stock. Personally I'll choose to go with "best practices".
I have been building layouts for over 50 years now and each and every one of them was loaded with mistakes. There is no other way around avoiding mistakes other than not building a layout at all!
I am quite proud to say, that I did not make the same mistake many times around, which shows that at least I have learned something along the way.
Most of the mistakes were the ones I could have avoided. I knew better, but I was just to hasty to pay attention! That sucks, but it is what it is!
I guess I will be making mistakes as long as I build layouts!
Another take on building a layout while keeping in mind a possible move (not that mine has moved and probably won't....)
Riogrande5761's take is a good one. More space often means a reassessment of what was done previously and thus the sort of major revisions making it moot that existing sections are worth reusing.
On the other hand, sometimes you're blessed with enough room to do some things right. I concentrated on making several yards adequate to most anticipated needs. Plus the yard tracks can be lengthened easily enough by cutting them and adding in more track. Where most of the work is in conacentrated areas like yards and industrial switching zones is in the turnouts and associated controls.
Thus, my "sectioning" of the layout concentrated on making it possible to slice these away and making sure they will make it through the layout room door and out of the basement. In a new and hopefuy roomier location, reassembly would concentrate in extending the typical all too short mainline runs between locations/yards and perhaps lengthing some of the yard tracks. I presume much that goes in between now would be reconfigured, but this approach may help preserve much of the most labor intensive part of construction.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I didn't have problems with that on past layouts, but I took a dry wall sanding bock this time around and ran it over the sides and tops of the cork.
You can always put up a guard rail of some sort. I had a scenic curve close to the edge and I just extended the hardboard fascia up a bit above the track level and finished in scenery on the inside of it to match the scenery around it. Along my yard, I did extended the fascia up about and inch or so to help prevent rolling stock going over the edge.
You can solder the rail joiners to improve conductivity and of course add more feeders after the fact.
How long is long enough? I didn't have lumber down for more than a week or two before building. In the 4 years I've had this layout up, no issues so far. I do run a dehumdifier to try to maintain a fairly constant humidity..
I did too, so I just bought additional fixtures and hung them.
Holy cow this tread blew up. Anyhow I do plan to make it sectional so when I finish college I can take it out of my parents house. I think that will please them.
Alexander Holy cow this tread blew up.
Holy cow this tread blew up.
Fairly new to MR forums I see! After you've been hear a while, you won't say "holy cow", you'll say, "here we go again" for the umpteenth time.
Anyhow I do plan to make it sectional so when I finish college I can take it out of my parents house. I think that will please them.
It's good to have goals. When you move out, likely it will first be to places where you can't take even a sectional layout - but maybe eventually the will stars align. After I was out of college, I moved around quite a few times and a layout was unfortunately out of the question, what with all the apartments I lived in. I had to face it that it would be a long time before I could build a proper layout, but thats normal for a lot of young modelrailroaders. I think I was in my 30's before my first wife and I were in a house and I built my first layout in the two car garage. I was actually in grad school at the time - crazy huh!?
These days from what I'm hearing on the news, more young folks than ever are having to put off home purchases due to major student debt, or other factors. Hopefully that isn't you if you are lucky. Maybe you're parents won't have to store your layout for a long time. Keep the dream alive!
Well, if anyone should have good advise on how to manage money, I'd guess that would be an accountaint. Now you just have to have enough to buy a house with a nice basement and fill it with trains! And stay put long enough to build that layout. That's another thing however! hah hah.
riogrande5761To everyone else, read John Armstrong's advise on S curves and take it for what it's worth. He was a mechanical engineer afterall. Sure, HO models are not real trains but they are affected by unfriendly track configuration.
Jim,That may be a problem a ME may overlook the simplest things due to his studies...As long as your couplers swing freely in their box and the trucks has sufficient swing you're good.
Over the years have we forgotten how simple the hobby truly is. I think so-well at times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNyuMsWSLGc
BRAKIE riogrande5761 To everyone else, read John Armstrong's advise on S curves and take it for what it's worth. He was a mechanical engineer afterall. Sure, HO models are not real trains but they are affected by unfriendly track configuration. Jim,That may be a problem a ME may overlook the simplest things due to his studies...As long as your couplers swing freely in their box and the trucks has sufficient swing you're good
riogrande5761 To everyone else, read John Armstrong's advise on S curves and take it for what it's worth. He was a mechanical engineer afterall. Sure, HO models are not real trains but they are affected by unfriendly track configuration.
Jim,That may be a problem a ME may overlook the simplest things due to his studies...As long as your couplers swing freely in their box and the trucks has sufficient swing you're good
Careful now, it's JA your talking about! At least others have commented how well that ME put things in terms the lay person could understand and benefit from. I agree with that. JA puts it elegantly simple and doesn't muck things up too much with formulas or greek. I could dance around this all day if you like, but at some point beer-thirty will come around and I won't be bothered too. Or do you simply want me to cry uncle! Who is more stubborn, thats the real question!
Larry - thanks for reminding us how cheap & cheerful model railroading can be!
Alexander - did I get this right - you´ll be heading for college soon? If that´s correct, you will most likely be hard pressed for space and funds for the hobby. If N scale is an option, there is a way to beat those limitations!
Just take a look at this article I wrote some years ago on how to build a simple, yet efficient mini-modular layout.
Confessions of a Mediocre Model Railroader
Just as a teaser - one of the modules I built looks like this, with a photoshopped backdrop!
NO DO NOT solder track joints anymore. Then they may require some grooming if soldered, to avoid derailments.
BUT
Arrange your track at normal room temperature and use brand new rail joiners, and that will provide good electrical conductivity. The track must be free enough to allow some thermal expansion and contraction--even if you glue it down, as long as it is not soldered--it will move enough when it needs to.
If you solder the joints and there are temperature changes, thermal stresses can be enough to break the track loose and even in some cases separate rails from ties. Also, if in an attic and you glue it down, summer heat may break the glue and warp your track.
If your mainline is less than 100 lineal feet, feel free to disregard my opinion. If your mainline exceeds 100 feet, you need to consider what I said and not solder all joints. Also, if in a garage or attic, consider...
I am a civil engineer, and John Allen was right. Buy the track planning book; use it, and you will do well. I have seen many layouts where the builder, to his peril, did not understand the unintentional s curve concept, and built something horrible that was a derailment hazard. For some it was too late to fix right. That may be ok for diesel operation, but likely not for steam or passenger.
John
Seven P's has worked in life . Prier, previous,planning, prevents, piss, poor preformance.
Planning is key. Then work from plan as life throws locomotives at you to stop. (Wife, kids,braces,mid-life toys etc ) You'll get there over time.
Come up with a reasonable track plan the suits your financial budget & space.
Patience is fundamental while doing any amount of model railroading. I'm still learning ...
Lite, bullet proof bench work built with 2" foam board top. Model Railroader Magazine has countless plans & pointers. If you don't have MR magazine. You're miss out.
Take your time to get it right.Don't get into a rush. You'll mess something up. I along with many others took that route.
Lay track work on cork ,then ballast,careful not to glue your turnouts.
Wire your layout DC or DCC .
Fear an Ignorant Man more than a Lion- Turkish proverb
Modeling an ficticious HO scale intergrated Scrap Yard & Steel Mill Melt Shop.
Southland Industrial Railway or S.I.R for short. Enterchanging with Norfolk Southern.
riogrande5761 I could dance around this all day if you like, but at some point beer-thirty will come around and I won't be bothered too. Or do you simply want me to cry uncle! Who is more stubborn, thats the real question!
Jim,You miss my point as shown in that video I linked to..No blocks,no fancy control panel, several"S" curves and gasp! road bed snap track with AHM,Tyco and Bachmann trains and what appears to be X2F couplers.
How can this be since this goes against everything we been taught??
Because it's 3 trains endlessly running on 3 separate tracks. Like many here have said, that sort of thing is really cool for 10 minutes, but then it's on to Sponge Bob reruns. Regardless, that's impressive for track on carpet!
I think I've finally found the track plan! Any thoughts or cautions? For reference: Green track is lower than orange track. http://chessiephotosho.weebly.com/