Sunset brass models

[ondrek]

I have been looking for a penn B6 0-6-0 in HO scale for a while and i finally found one, but its from Sunset models. I am guessing its gonna be out of my price range, but....


Are these Sunset models worth the $$?

Should i just splurge anyhow?

Does anyone else make a B6 0-6-0?
I know there is a proto 2000 0-6-0 but its not the B6 and there is just something about the B6 that i like more than the one the proto 2K models.

help.

thanks

Kevin

[Anonymous]

I'm not a follower of Pennsy. However, Bowser makes a kit for an Pennsy 0-6-0. Don't know what B# it is. People will be BASHING brass on here! However, I feel this is unwarranted and find brass models to be very good models. I have two brass locos and 4 cabooses and am very happy with all of them. I have no Sunset models so can't speak specifically for them. None of my models are the high end models excepting a W&R N.P. caboose, which is very detaled. I also would state, that I might not have paid the extra cost of brass, if the models I wanted were available in plastic, wood or by other means.

[ondrek]

Ah, Thats right Bowser, they do make a B6, I forgot to mention that i HAVE looked at their website at that exact model.
here'smy take on that one, they want $350 for a built up kit and they want almost $200 for the kit unbuilt. so, if i can find a sunset for close to $ would it be better to get the Brass one?

why do people bash brass?

kevin

[Anonymous]

I have a brass PRR caboose that I purchased from ebay last year. For years I've wanted a brass engine or caboose. When it arrived it was, to say the least, BEAUTIFUL. The detail was fantastic. Although the state of the art in plastic is catching up, I still think that the level of detail is still higher in brass. Is it worth the price difference? That's up to each individual. I will admit, that there's something about a model made from that bright shiny metal that is captivating!!

Back on the subject. I believe that several years ago Sunset had a bunch of PRR items it came out with. I believe it wasn't advertised as top of the line, but rather some sort of budget brass line. I could be mistaken.

[tatans]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ondrek

Ah, Thats right Bowser, they do make a B6, I forgot to mention that i HAVE looked at their website at that exact model.
here'smy take on that one, they want $350 for a built up kit and they want almost $200 for the kit unbuilt. so, if i can find a sunset for close to $ would it be better to get the Brass one?

why do people bash brass?

kevin

[tatans]

PRICE

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

PRICE

So lets say a Sunset Prestige model of the B6 0-6-0 went for $400. its all built up, and painted. that is too expensive when compared to the Bowser $325 B6 0-6-0 built up?

Is the bowser line that well done that it can be as expsive as a brass model, or close to it?

kevin

[Anonymous]

Early Sunset models were built by Samhongsa in Korea. They had a lot of detail and ran rather well. The last 10 or so years Sunset has used another builder, and while the detail is not up to Samhongsa, the operational quality is good. Sunset prices are reasonable compared to other brass importers.

Sunset models as well as most other brass imports hold their value fairly well. If you can get the model at a reasonable price it is likely that down the road, even with moderate usage, you will get almost all, if not all, of your money back when it comes time to sell. The initial cost might be higher than die cast or plastic, but you will have a more accurate model and the overall expense will probably be equal to, or less than if you had purchased the die-cast version.

[ondrek]

What about finding a used Red Ball Howell Day brass engine? what do those fetch? there's a B6 on ebay right now made by him.

Kevin

[rvanparys]

You might try caboose hobbies in Denver. www.caboosehobbies.com. They have a great inventory of brass models on consignment.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rvanparys

You might try caboose hobbies in Denver. www.caboosehobbies.com. They have a great inventory of brass models on consignment.

Thanks!

I just took a look, they have the Sunset model I was loooking for Item: BC80636
Description: 0-6-0 B-6sb CAN W/SLOPED TENDER PRESTIGE U/P SLT
Price: $235.00
and its in stock....
So its $90 LESS than the Bowser built up B6. Does that mean the sunset one is junk? if the Brass model is LESS than a Bowser?

They also have the other Sunset model i was looking for a PRR 5s, they have two. one is painted and is $300 and one non painted, $235, so that must be the reason for the B6 being $235, its probably not painted.

Well, that gives me a good idea i suppose.

interesting the Gem model of the 5s is $15 more than the Sunset...are the Gems better? I remember a year ago a 5s Gem unpainted went for $310 on ebay, I was floored.

I think what i will do is call this place and just pick their brains and then pick one up, it might be more money, but i think that since its the engine i have been striving for all this time, i can stop wasting my time and money buying other models that I thought would satisfy me, but havent.

thanks

Kevin

[twhite]

I've got a lot of brass and it runs well, so brass-bashing in my little corner of the world is just wasted air. I've got several Sunset models (USRA Light Mike, USRA Light Mountain, SP AC-6 Cab-Forward) and they are very smooth runners. With a little balancing and added weight, they've turned into quite handsome pullers as well. One thing that you have to watch for in brass, is the fact that they tend to be a little light with just the factory-supplied weight. This isn't a problem usually, if your layout is flat, but if you've got grades, you need to add a little weight and make sure it's balanced properly. And the Sunset models I've bought are quite reasonably priced, especially if you compare them to some of the very overpriced used PFM models from 20-30 years back.
Tom

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

I've got a lot of brass and it runs well, so brass-bashing in my little corner of the world is just wasted air. I've got several Sunset models (USRA Light Mike, USRA Light Mountain, SP AC-6 Cab-Forward) and they are very smooth runners. With a little balancing and added weight, they've turned into quite handsome pullers as well. One thing that you have to watch for in brass, is the fact that they tend to be a little light with just the factory-supplied weight. This isn't a problem usually, if your layout is flat, but if you've got grades, you need to add a little weight and make sure it's balanced properly. And the Sunset models I've bought are quite reasonably priced, especially if you compare them to some of the very overpriced used PFM models from 20-30 years back.
Tom

Tom -
Glad to hear that. I have a very flat layout, and my future layout is very flat too. as far as the track level is concerened.

on the Sunset models, is power pick up done with the tender wheels too or just the main engine wheels?

thanks

Kevin

[MidlandPacific]

I would pay the extra and get the Sunset over the Gem, but that's a strictly personal observation. I've had good experiences with the three Sunset Prestige models I bought second hand, and very moderate ones with a single Gem.

If you want to just call Caboose Directly, they will usually give you an honest appraisal over the phone. I've been buying from them since '97 and never had a bad experience yet; they've even repaired UPS-inflicted damage. They will also be able to appraise the relative worth and condition for you.

[Anonymous]

Caboose Hobbies also has a printable list of the abbreviations they use for brass equipment. If you had that list you would know that U/P means unpainted.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

Caboose Hobbies also has a printable list of the abbreviations they use for brass equipment. If you had that list you would know that U/P means unpainted.

I see that now, thanks

I am also on the phone with them as i type

kevin

[Anonymous]

The prices you see at Caboose Hobbies shouldn't reflect whether one model is better built or higher quality than another. The consignment prices are set by the individual sellers, occasionally with input from Caboose. I have seen the same model on several occasions on the used brass list at Caboose with price differences as much as $100 or more, again the exact same model. Some sellers expect more than their engine is worth, others are more realistic.

Gem had their models made in Japan and were nice engines. The Sunset engine uses a can motor, runs much smoother, and has better detail. The Gem was nice for it's time in the mid 60's-70's. Caboose Hobbies prices are often higher than typical shops on their consignment locos, as they get a 30% commission I believe from the selling price, so sellers jack up their prices to partially compensate for the selling fees. But again, if you buy a used brass engine at the typical used prices you see at Caboose or elsewhere you can recapture most if not all of the price when you resell. It's difficult to compare the new prices of diecast with the used brass as the costs continue to escalate with time. Die-cast engines produced at the same time as the Gem engine were probably half what the Gem sold for, but that doesn't hold true today. Die-cast engine prices today from companies like Bowser, etc., are rather high compared with only ten years ago. I have seen good used Bowser engines at the train shows selling between $45-75, so you can compare the resale value.

With the continual spiral of increased wages and standard of living in Korea and China the brass imports aren't going to be getting any cheaper and brass prices have held reasonably firm over the years.

The other item in this brass pricing is collectability. Some people like Gem engines as there were not too many made of any one model, hence maybe more difficult to find. So price is often associated with the rarity of the model, not at all with the quality. Some of the very early PFM hand built engines are fetching $2,500 plus due to their rarity, but in reality are very lacking in detail and quality compared to the regular production runs. So don't equate price with quality, just won't work in buying older used brass. The very high end Samhongsa built models from W&R, Challenger, and Key are expensive now, were expensive when they came out, and all well worth the high prices, but not typical of most brass.

[ondrek]

murrieta-

thats a ton of great info. thanks.

I think i will stick with the Sunset if i can muster up this purchase. the guy at Caboose ran both the sunset and the gem and i could hear the gem over the phone while i couldnt hear the sunset. unfortunatly the b6 had a hop in it due to the tension of the sprung truck. he said he would have one of the techs look at it before it went out.

If i can purchase one of thes or (hope hope) both the b6 and the 5s, i would be buying them to keep them, not resell latter.

so how to justify it? thats my problem now the wife probably wont see the need.
hrmmm....

kevin

[Anonymous]

Kevin,
I don't know how you feel about purchasing on eBay. I have had nothing but great luck. But even if you choose to buy elsewhere, and I believe Caboose Hobbies to be one of the best shops in the U.S. , using eBay to evaluate prices will give you a good feel for what certain models are worth. The Pennsy 0-6-0 is a popular engine and you will find them on eBay from time to time. Generally the eBay prices are typical of what an engine might sell for at a train show. Sometimes a true bargain shows up. I tend to keep my brass, having sold very little in the past 30 years, but it's nice to know that they can easily be sold if the need came up.

[Anonymous]

How do you justify it? Like you would anything else. What is it worth to you? Are you going to have to go without the necessities in life for it? Justifying it is somethiing between you and her. (Of course a very very nice dinner out, a super nice Xmas present for the Mrs. and skip football for a couple of weekends to help out around the house would work also!).

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ondrek
why do people bash brass?

It depends on the model. I'm a "brass basher" on two points 1. Most HO brass EMD E and F units don't have correct curves / slope on the nose. 2. Brass diesel models drive mechanisms fell way behind the plastic ones in the early 1980s. Some sounded worse than the old blue box Athearn. While I haven't purchased any brass diesel since then, I assume they have corrected that problem now.

But with the steam, it was only the introduction of the Proto Heritage and Trix that plastic has even gotten close to brass in detail, and equaled it in operational quality. There still hasn't been a plastic steamer made with equalized drivers or floating transmission.

I am guessing that much of the brass bashing is just human nature to make one feel better about their own station. Unconsciously something like, "I'll make fun of it to make me feel better about not being able to afford any." I do find it interesting that many of the brass bashers (at least on rec.modelrailroad) were the same people who were the "quality bigots" when it came to the plastic models. You know the ones, won't recommend anything but a Kato or Genesis even if the user is going to be a 7 year old.

It always comes down to how much one is willing to pay for a small percentage increase in quality. Some people are willing to pay it in autos, others in stereo equipment, and yet others in Model Railroading. America by default always says they want quality but very seldom are willing to pay for it. We have proved it many times in many different markets the most dramatic being VHS vs Beta.

[ondrek]

Texas Zepher-

i can not comment on diesel engines as i have not a one.

From what i learned today, these Sunset models are right in line with prices compared to the browser brand. infact the built up Sunset is less than the built up Bowser.
I know that there is a difference there, used brass vs new diecast, but the brass ones i was after, the guy said there was very very little wear on them, most of the time when one buys a brass model they tend not to use them. so to me they are new.

well, i am going to go for the sunsets as long as i can muster up the $
I would have to do the same if i was to go after a proto 2k as well, and if i was to buy one of those instead, i would still not have the engine i really wanted, so again i would still be wanting the sunset and spent more money for nothing in the process.

If i had purchased these two sunsets way back when i first started buying engines, i would have a lot fewer engines and honestly less money tied up in them too boot!

Kevin

[tatans]

Texas Zepher AND ondrek ::: possibly the 2 best replies to the age old quandry on brass. 2 points about brass (there are only 2) 1. QUALITY--this is questionable with todays plastic and newer technology. 2. PRICE: Here's the big sticker, if you can afford to buy brass, what's the problem? That IS the problem. $500.00 is a lot of coin, so, is it ONE engine or 5 engines (just like in real life) I feel I'm the luckiest stiff in the world, I got an old brass United Berkshire at an online auction for $50.00, spent another $30.00 reconditioning it, and it truly is a work of art, now I need a brass tender which I'm sure I will never see. A question to ask ANY model railroader : If you could afford to buy a brass engine would you? I know the answer would be 100% YES. Again, the above comments are the best responses I have ever seen on brass in this forum. Thanks

[Anonymous]

Texas,
I had almost forgotten about the noisy drives in some of the diesels. Hallmark Models had a Korean builder than seemed to know how to make the engines louder than the prototype. One club member had a four unit lash-up of Hallmark GP-35 diesels and you could hear them running 100 feet away from the far end of the layout. Up close they sounded like metal to metal grinding away. We often wondered how so much noise could come out of such a small model. They did improve a little as they wore in, but not much. Fortunately brass steam engines follow a common design that makes them far quieter and a lot easier to work on.

I attended a club Christmas show at the Menlo Park Model Railroaders clubhouse in the old SP freight station in Menlo Park, California last Friday night. One member had an old brass Max Gray SP 4-8-2 engine running that had been used on open houses for the past 25 years. The owner said he estimated the engine had about 4,000 hours running time on it. He did take good care of it, lubed and serviced it at least annually, but that's a lot of time on any engine. Max Gray models were sold up until about 1965 so this particular steam loco is almost 40 years old at best. The often heard theory that die-cast and plastic will hold up longer than delicate brass just isn't accurate. Plus you can pull the body off a brass steam loco with three screws and install a new motor in probably 15 minutes if the need arises.

Hallmark Models of the era of the noisy drivers are priced accordingly in the marketplace. The past 10 years have seem a dramatic improvement in diesel offerings in brass and the engines have an extremely fine-tuned and smooth drive system. Diesels from Overland and Challenger Imports are up to museum standards in every way.

The lost-wax castings used on brass engines are so detailed in comparison to their counterparts on die-cast and plastic models. Brass engines have running boards, cab walls and roofs contoured properly and with correct thickness of material, nothing bulky. Boiler design and other distinguishing details of each model are done much more accurately than the typical mass produced model.

I have nothing against Bowser and have assembled a few of their models over the years, but Bowser has been around since at least the early 50's. Their engines up until the 60's were selling in kit form for about $19.50 and up. The Challenger use to be a $39.95 engine. There are thousands of Bowser models floating around the country, and the new models are not that much different from the original Bowser kits. With the brass models you get the benefit of more attention to detail and accuracy and a limited production model.

The new plastic models that are coming out of China are superb, and seem worth the money in light of all the fine detail and quality that goes into them. It doesn't seem like it would be a fair comparison to put even the new plastic engines up against the die-cast models with 50 year old technology.

If you don't mind spending a little time you can find good bargains in brass and have a great engine at a fair price. In the early 90's brass locos were selling for 2 or 3 times the price of die-cast or plastic. Now that the prices have become so similar it would seem the brass models would be true bargain in comparison.

[nobullchitbids]

I am one who builds (or, to be absolutely honest, rebuilds) brass models, and given what I know goes into that, I can say with certainty that brass locomotives, particularly the Japanese ones from the 70s, are EXTREMELY low priced, even today. While it is true a rebuilder has neither jigs nor computerized power equipment, still it comes as no surprise to me that the people who put these models together probably were getting little more than fifty cents an hour for their efforts -- one reason why the price of brass keeps going up. Does the model-railroading community understand that the list price for many of these models "back then" was as little as $40 apiece for a switcher or about $70 for a road engine? And the number of units made of any particular prototype almost always was less than a thousand and sometimes as few as 50.

Go price a United States gold coin of similar rarity today and see what you would pay if you were in a more "respectable" hobby. It is amazing to me that the prices are not even higher than they are.

Labor, of course, is only one of the elements which goes into escalating brass prices -- a detailed locomotive requires detailed parts, and they are not cheap either. True, a builder like Samhongsa or Ajin or United or Tenshodo would buy parts in bulk lots, so they were not paying what we pay when we order something individually from Cal Scale; but, the point still needs to be made that these are AMERICAN parts made for American wages -- Lee English does not work for 50 cents an hour, and neither would anyone reading this forum.

Any who think that the price of brass is high are hereby challenged to a little adventure: Order a distributor set from Cal Scale -- the set consists of a distributor, equalizing tank, and a pump governor -- and prep it for installation into one of those older brass locos without this level of detail. Prepping is easy: Just drill five # 78 holes into the distributor, a # 78 and a # 73 hole into the tank, and a # 76 hole through the governor (already cored -- just clean it out); drill two corresponding # 78 holes under the engineman's position in the cab (one for a distributor feed, one for the tank's feed), plus mounting holes for the distributor and tank; then, using .015" wire for the tank and distributor and .020" wire for the governor, mount the parts with silver solder and plumb them [two of the loose distributor feeds plug into the extension from the cab brake, and the # 73 hole is for a Cal Scale closed drain ****; the governor fits round the steam feed from the turret to the air pump(s), and don't forget to add the tee and cutoff valves, which also may need to be cored]; finally, drill a # 78 hole into the open end of the cutoff ****, so that an observer will be looking into a pipe, not a wire.

You will need a small vice, an Indian twist drill, appropriate bits, a set of Swiss pattern files, silver solder and flux, small needlenose pliers, a miniature gas torch, a couple of loose alligator clips, a couple of haemostats to serve as clamps or heat sinks, tweezers, and last but definitely not least, a jeweler's loop (so you can see what you are doing). You will also need a dictionary (to look up all of the four-letter words you will use when everything goes wrong).

And that is just to upgrade a portion of the airbrake system!

This level of craftsmanship is not easy to attain, not easy to maintain, and not easy to pay for. The Japanese priced themselves out of the market, then the Koreans, and eventually the Chinese will also. Perhaps, at that point, we still will be able to find someone to do this kind of work cheaply in Africa, or in India or Pakistan, but I am not holding my breath. I suspect that, fifty to one hundred years from now, brass models will be made the way they originally were made -- individually, by individual model railroaders, who are not running a business, not looking for profit, but are wanting to own fine models of interesting equipment and have no other way to obtain them.

At that point, model railroading will have come full circle, and who knows: By then we may even have discovered how to bring Al Kalmbach back to life! [:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Kevin,
Another small item regarding Sunset Models or any other for that matter. I like to keep my engines in their original boxes and packing. You will find almost all brass engines of any vintage will have their original boxes. The box shows the manufacturer, the importer, and the specifics of the engine.

The boxes definitely have a value to be associated with the engine. I've bought a few engines I really wanted without the box, but rarely. Caboose Hobbies will have a notation with their models if they do not come with the original box. If you are purchasing a model that is to be shipped to you the original box and packing will certainly help in assuring that the model arrives in good condition. Some collectors won't buy a brass engine without a box, so even though you intend on keeping the model for years to come, the day you sell the engine the box will increase the value of the engine.

[twhite]

One thing I like about brass steam is that the pickup is from BOTH engine and tender, and ALL wheels (okay, maybe not the trailing trucks on some models), which beats some plastic steamers all to heck--for instance the Genesis USRA's, where the tender is just along for the ride. And they're easy to get into if you need to replace a motor or just do the usual maintenance. Three screws--okay, maybe five on an Articulated. And fond as I am of my BLI's and Heritage steamers, there's just something SOLID about that brass Articulated coming up the hill with a string of reefers behind it.
Tom

[ondrek]

a lot of great information i have recieved on this topic. This is great.
Now i want these even more.

What i really really need is a lesson on engine repair and maintenance, what to lube how to make a rough motor run better, replacing points, where to get points and such,

If i get one of these brass engine, i imagine that maintenance and up keep will be more important than say a rivarossi or bachmann.

When i was on the phone with the guy from Caboose Hobbies he said that one of the engines i was interested in had a hop because the sprung trucks needed adjustment in the spring. now, he explained how to adjust them, my question is, how often to they need to be adjusted? how do they get out of wack? is it possible i will be looking at more of a headache than a pleasure? i am not one of those who buys stuff just to look at, i use stuff.

Kevin

[Anonymous]

Kevin,

Purchase an engine that runs well. Several things can cause any steam engine to operate improperly. Almost all brass steamers have individually sprung drivers. If someone has replaced a spring for whatever reason, possibly having lost the spring when the engine was taken apart for painting, the tension on the new spring might be different than the others causing a problem.

There are too many nice engines out there to buy one that needs a repair. I don't recall in my years of owning quite a few brass engines that I ever needed to do much work. I lube the gear box with LaBelle lube as well as use LaBelle oil where the drive axles ride in the frame, but even this lubrication is something that doesn't have to be done often. I've seen people lube an engine after it was painted and never lube it again and they still ran fine for years.

It's hard to look at a problem with a model and immediately have an accurate assessment as to why the engine doesn't run smooth. The engine you mention at Caboose Hobbies might even have a driver out of quarter, a problem with the valve-gear, etc., not necessarily a spring problem. If you purchase an engine that runs well and take reasonably good care of it, the engine will continue to run well for you for years. If you have your heart set on a particular engine that does not operate smoothly be sure the price of the model is sufficiently adjusted to allow for you to bring it up to par. I've found that most of my brass engines are much more rugged and reliable than any of the die-cast or plastic engines. Brass engines, as well as any other engines tthat don't operate well generally are difficult to sell and priced much lower than a smooth operating model. I've noticed that quite a few engines that Caboose Hobbies have on their list have been for sale for months, some over a year. I've found Caboose salespeople to be very honest in their assessment of the consigned engines. Fortunately with Caboose Hobbies purchase policy, if you find the engine upon receipt to not be as you expected you can return it for a full refund.

Bowser, from my experience, uses motors that take a lot of voltage to get moving and a lot of power to operate, just real juice hogs. Bowser kits need to be assembled with care, especially with the valve gear. A poorly built kit will never run right without be taken completely down and almost started from scratch. Older AHM and Rivarossi steam locos often had valve gear that became sloppy and would bind. Most brass engines don't have these problems. That would be my only concern with buying on eBay and not having the opportunity to see the engine operate. I don't care because I can most often get an engine to operate well from past experience with the models. I've never received an engine yet on eBay that didn't run well, but I'm sure there are a few out there that are being sold because the owner is unhappy for one reason or another. If eBay is used just be sure that the seller has a return policy that meets your needs, must good eBayers have a track record of taken care of their buyers.

In brief, buy an engine that works well from the get-go and it most likely will give you hours of enjoyment. Buy an engine that isn't perfect with the thought of allowing someone with knowledge to be able to fine tune it to operate to your satisfaction. There are several large shops, Caboose Hobbies included, that have repairmen and painters of brass models that have the expertise to make even the poorest of brass engines operate like a swiss watch.

[Anonymous]

There are folks who buy brass equipment to look at it and folks (like me) whom use it. It's mine, I'm going to do with it what I want! I don't think maintenance is any more and likely even less with brass, as the equipment is well built and easy to disassemble. I have a Rivarossi Mikado that is very difficult to take apart. The Italian engineering is WAY more complicated than needed!

I don't understand why Bowser kits seem to be so expensive. I reallize that the super detail parts add expense. However, why a die cast loco body and the rest of the parts in a kit are as high priced as they are I don't understand. Having been a tool and die maker, I fully understand the cost of tooling. However, some of the tooling Bowser uses should be as old as 40+ years and amortized out.

For me, Bowser's saving grace is the fact that they make KITS. The hobby for me is building things and I love kit makers and would have more Bowser locos, if they made ones I could use. I am glad they have made some USRA locos in the last decade or so. Bowser's freight car kits are wonderful!