Sunset brass models

[Anonymous]

They are very smooth runners, just that out of the box the big engine tends to hunt when going down the track and had troubles with switches. I had the same problerm with a Westside and Max Gray Daylight. I ended up adding some more weight to the boiler and increased the spring tension on the four wheel leading truck and that pretty much solved the problem. The bigger engines, especially some of the articulateds suffered from not being heavy enough to track well. It's easy enough to add more weight, but it would have been nice if they would have came out of the box able to handle the sometimes uneven trackwork of a model layout. Smaller engines do much better on rough track work, especially the switch engines with no leading or trailing wheels.

Sunset and Key have now been in business over 30 years. Samhongsa, their builder, has grown to become the premier quality builder of all Korean imports. Current Samhongsa quality is equal or better to any of the best Japanese builders, museum quality in every respect. While there have probably been at least 50 firms in Korea go out of business in these past 30 years that use to build brass locos for different importers, Samhongsa, Key, and Sunset have continued to thrive with a solid reputation for consistent quality.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by murrieta

Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 streamlined northern steam locomotive. The engine was used to pull SP's premier passenger trains, later used in freight service as diesels took over. In passenger service they were painted in the red, orange, and black scheme with silver striping, then to basic black for freight.

oh, too big for anything i will ever own

huh. doesnt run smooth. i hope i dont have that luck. but chances are...

[Anonymous]

Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 streamlined northern steam locomotive. The engine was used to pull SP's premier passenger trains, later used in freight service as diesels took over. In passenger service they were painted in the red, orange, and black scheme with silver striping, then to basic black for freight.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jjwest870

I have a Sunset brass SP GS-4 from aprox 10+ yrs ago. It has a smooth running motor and looks generally good but the detail isn't up to the current p2k heritage locos. Beyond that.. it is VERY picky about trackwork and has never run 'great' on any of my layouts, even with 30++" radius curves. would i buy another? no. would i sell mine? nah it looks great in its display case. ha just my 2 cents to throw in the ring.

excuse my igrorance, what does a GS-4 look like?

any pics would help.

Kevin

[Anonymous]

I have a Sunset brass SP GS-4 from aprox 10+ yrs ago. It has a smooth running motor and looks generally good but the detail isn't up to the current p2k heritage locos. Beyond that.. it is VERY picky about trackwork and has never run 'great' on any of my layouts, even with 30++" radius curves. would i buy another? no. would i sell mine? nah it looks great in its display case. ha just my 2 cents to throw in the ring.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fiverings

As to painting "unpainted" brass models....

Nearly all brass models (except those factory painted) were/are imported with a clear lacquer coating. Some had a brass-colored paint applied. Reason: to prevent tarnishing.

You have to decide whether to keep the lacquer on as a base coat, or to strip it. If there are scratches, sags, drips or runs in the lacquer, it's best to strip it off, treat the brass with vinegar (to etch the surface for better paint adhesion), prime and paint. On the other hand, if the lacquer coat is thin, smooth and intact (the usual condition) you can just paint over it with excellent results.

Thanks, thats good information, i will keep it in mind.

Kevin

[Anonymous]

As to painting "unpainted" brass models....

Nearly all brass models (except those factory painted) were/are imported with a clear lacquer coating. Some had a brass-colored paint applied. Reason: to prevent tarnishing.

You have to decide whether to keep the lacquer on as a base coat, or to strip it. If there are scratches, sags, drips or runs in the lacquer, it's best to strip it off, treat the brass with vinegar (to etch the surface for better paint adhesion), prime and paint. On the other hand, if the lacquer coat is thin, smooth and intact (the usual condition) you can just paint over it with excellent results.

[Anonymous]

Good Morning:

In referance to the "Brown Book", since it's out of date by almost ten years and brass has done a lot in that time, I use it just to see what was built, how many, and what years. If you want to know what brass was and is selling for check Caboose Hobbies History of Sales, it used to be availabe on a CD.

The guys at Caboose work with brass all the time and they don't make any money unless something sells so they want to have a reasonable price but also a good profit. They have always been good to work with.

Caboose sold, among other engines, a ATSF Tenshodo Crown PFM 2-10-4 for me for $2995.00 and that was cheap for the time. I've bought several locos from them and off eBay. Some of the eBay purchases had to be worked on, but I knew that going into the purchase.

Caboose also has an employee, (Ron Mayers) that wrote a bunch of articles about fine tuning brass models. A lot of the ideas worked for die cast locos also. If you give Ron a call with a specific problem, he'll be glad to help ypu with it.

Have a good day
Bob

[Anonymous]

I had forgotten I put this engine on my watch list on eBay so it popped up immediately.

The Ebay number is 5943255798. This Pennsy switcher is what a nicely painted loco should look like. I know you said you wanted to have an unpainted model to work with, but it would be a crime to strip this particular engine down for repainting as good as it looks. Maybe you could keep the Pennsy lettering on for a while. This loco also came from Key in an unpainted version.

[Anonymous]

Kevin,

eBay has a topic that is for HO brass imports. You won't find most of the brass engines in the general HO listing. Go onto ebay, then to HO models, on the left side you will see brass imports listed among all the typical HO builders. Click on that and you will find the engine. I think there are about 350 brass currently on the site. Or you can do a search on eBay and put in Key Imports B8. The auction lasts another day or two I believe. This B8 is truly one of the nicest Pennsy switchers ever made, and the first time I have seen one on eBay. Lots of pictures on eBay too, so you will get a good idea of what you are getting. If you are unable to find the engine let me know and I will get the eBay number for you. I also did a little checking on what some of the Prestige Series Sunset switchers have sold for recently and it seems like the range in the unpainted version is $175-200, so you're not far off with the pricing at Caboose Hobbies.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by murrieta

I did my usual Friday afternoon look on eBay. There is a beautiful Key Imports PRR B-8 0-6-0 switcher, factory painted at a current price of $195.

I cant find that one. help

Kevin

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Again, I reiterate, some of the best responses to the never ending debate about brass, I learned a lot, great posts everyone.

No kidding, i never expected this kind of response. Its absolutly amazing and i am learning a TON.

Kevin

[tatans]

Again, I reiterate, some of the best responses to the never ending debate about brass, I learned a lot, great posts everyone.

[Anonymous]

I did my usual Friday afternoon look on eBay. There is a beautiful Key Imports PRR B-8 0-6-0 switcher, factory painted at a current price of $195. Key Imports as well as Sunset were the first importers to begin using Samhongsa for a builder. You couldn't tell a Sunset engine from a Key engine without the box.

This particular B-8 is factory painted in the Brunswick Green scheme. This price or even close to this price is cheap for the engine. When this model was produced by Samhongsa and imported by Key the level of quality and finish was almost up to the Japanese imports that cost three times as much. The paint job on this model is really superb and if it runs as good as it looks it would be a winner. I'd place the value on this engine at least in the $300 plus ballpark, with the paint job worth at least another $100.

The Sunset Prestige series of imports were some of the most recent models that Sunset has sold, although they did not use Samhongsa for the builder. The Prestige series locomotives were built in higher quantities than the typical Sunset model and subsequently allowed Sunset to sell them for less money. Sunset chose some of the most popular prototype engines to model in this series to assure the popularity to sell the quantity of engines that they built. They have a good reputation for running quality, although some of the really fine details have been omitted in order to keep costs down, but not noticeable to most people.

[Anonymous]

Kevin,
Yep, you definitely need to prepare the surface for painting on brass engines. Vinegar will do the trick very nicely. I use to paint my brass locos using the oven on a very low setting, but with the new paints out the heating process is not really necessary. I do use a primer on a first coat, followed by the engine black.

The boiler of most locos comes off in one piece, so the painting will be done on the boiler, steam chest, and underframe. I really enjoy painting and with your experience I think you'll find it maybe easier than your die-cast models. The drivers are almost always pre-blackened so you would only have to touch up the tires on the drivers if you wanted a completely black driver. Valve gear is polished, and again if you felt the need to darken that image you would need to thoroughly clean the gear, plus use a primer. Some of the primers allow you to paint over them in less than 24 hours so the process goes quickly.

Good luck. I think you will be very pleasantly surprised with your purchase. Ebay will certainly help you get a feel for prices. I often end up waiting 2-3 months to get an engine I want. If you don't see exactly what you want today, just wait a week, something else will pop up.

And along the lines of the post above regarding installing new motors. Sometimes just a new can motor such as those available from Northwest Shortline can turn a lemon into lemonade.

[mikebonellisr]

I have both the Sunset brass[from about 10 years ago],and I built the bowser 0-6-0 kit.The bowser was re-powered w/a helix humper motor[I forget the new name they operate under]The sunset has more delicate,finer detail and is a very smooth runner,The only problem I've noticed was the light paint job that scratched all the way to the brass,even with carefull handling-NO big deal because I striped it and re-painted it as NYC.The Bowser kit has nice "heft" and runs almost as good and as nice as the Sunset.The details wheather they are Bowser or Cal-Scale,are a bit thicker.Side by side the difference can be seen, but when they are seperated on the layout,I have to check the number to tell which one I am running.

[MidlandPacific]

Incidentally, if you can get your hands on one, the latest edition of the Brown Book (John Glaab was the editor) is invaluable for pricing brass. The posted prices in the book are obsolete, but you can extrapolate from the printed prices at Caboose to determine whether you're getting a good deal.

[ondrek]

I cant say that i will pass on the Sunset to buy a Bowser, I have built an engine from a kit before, two actually, both were MDC's one was a 4-4-2 atlantic that i feel came out very well. there was a good amount of valve gear to assemble there too. i have no problems with it, I dont think i will keep going that route though, it took an awful long time for me to build it due to limited time and the kit was $40 to start. if i am going to spend $200 the engine should be built in my mind.

I would much rather be running the train than having to keep tweeking with it. i found that many of my current engines, which range from mantua's to two Rivarossi's, if something goes wrong, or it starts to run poorly, i tend to just stop using it instead of trying to get it to run well again. infact i have a 040 rivarossi that runs a bit loud and steppy in forwards but smooth in reverse, but instead of figuring it out, i have gone to using a newer one that i have of the exact same model.

So hearing that the brass models if running well to start with are more reliable, thats music to my ears.

Doing some looking on ebay, i did find the B6 out there. its very good looking and after looking into the seller's website and his history, i feel comfortable, but the price is higher than if i but the one from Caboose hobbies. then of course i find on ebay the 5s that i want. that one is right now less than the one at caboose hobbies, but there are still days left on it. So now i need to wait and watch.

Another factor is that the pre-painted ones are for PRR, thats fine and all, but i dont want any real road names on my engines, I have my own, so getting an unpainted one would do two things, same me some $$ upfront and allow me to put my own road name on it. That brings up other issues, can you paint directly on the brass or does it need to be prepared like i had to do with the MDC model where i had to wash it in vinagar, heat it in the oven, prime it, and then paint it? how easy is it to remove the boiler to paint it? all those nitpick things....

Kevin

[Anonymous]

I was a little surprised to see how expensive some of the Bowser kits had become.

Bowser has a lot of history to the company. I believe the company has been sold at least once. Many of the steam locomotive kits are not of Bowser heritage. John A. English Company of Yardley, PA built a lot of Pennsy prototype steam loco kits in the early 50's. It appears that Bowser has resurrected these engines in their inventory. Also I find Varney steam locos now selling under the Bowser name. I'm pretty sure the Pennsy 0-4-0 is a English model, and I'm sure the Casey Jones is from Varney. The USRA design engines look very suspiciously like the old English 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 engines and I suspect that these locos have also been resurrected from old English dies. So there are a few engines in the line that don't share common designs in valve gear or even boiler castings and are not truly original Bowser products.

I just read where Bowser purchased the Stewart Products line of diesels. Really nice models with accurate body details. I believe it's great that Bowser can keep alive the heritage and models of these early builders. While the dies and various components needed to manufacture the models have been paid off decades ago the costs in manpower to keep the models in production must be substantial.

[Anonymous]

There are folks who buy brass equipment to look at it and folks (like me) whom use it. It's mine, I'm going to do with it what I want! I don't think maintenance is any more and likely even less with brass, as the equipment is well built and easy to disassemble. I have a Rivarossi Mikado that is very difficult to take apart. The Italian engineering is WAY more complicated than needed!

I don't understand why Bowser kits seem to be so expensive. I reallize that the super detail parts add expense. However, why a die cast loco body and the rest of the parts in a kit are as high priced as they are I don't understand. Having been a tool and die maker, I fully understand the cost of tooling. However, some of the tooling Bowser uses should be as old as 40+ years and amortized out.

For me, Bowser's saving grace is the fact that they make KITS. The hobby for me is building things and I love kit makers and would have more Bowser locos, if they made ones I could use. I am glad they have made some USRA locos in the last decade or so. Bowser's freight car kits are wonderful!

[Anonymous]

Kevin,

Purchase an engine that runs well. Several things can cause any steam engine to operate improperly. Almost all brass steamers have individually sprung drivers. If someone has replaced a spring for whatever reason, possibly having lost the spring when the engine was taken apart for painting, the tension on the new spring might be different than the others causing a problem.

There are too many nice engines out there to buy one that needs a repair. I don't recall in my years of owning quite a few brass engines that I ever needed to do much work. I lube the gear box with LaBelle lube as well as use LaBelle oil where the drive axles ride in the frame, but even this lubrication is something that doesn't have to be done often. I've seen people lube an engine after it was painted and never lube it again and they still ran fine for years.

It's hard to look at a problem with a model and immediately have an accurate assessment as to why the engine doesn't run smooth. The engine you mention at Caboose Hobbies might even have a driver out of quarter, a problem with the valve-gear, etc., not necessarily a spring problem. If you purchase an engine that runs well and take reasonably good care of it, the engine will continue to run well for you for years. If you have your heart set on a particular engine that does not operate smoothly be sure the price of the model is sufficiently adjusted to allow for you to bring it up to par. I've found that most of my brass engines are much more rugged and reliable than any of the die-cast or plastic engines. Brass engines, as well as any other engines tthat don't operate well generally are difficult to sell and priced much lower than a smooth operating model. I've noticed that quite a few engines that Caboose Hobbies have on their list have been for sale for months, some over a year. I've found Caboose salespeople to be very honest in their assessment of the consigned engines. Fortunately with Caboose Hobbies purchase policy, if you find the engine upon receipt to not be as you expected you can return it for a full refund.

Bowser, from my experience, uses motors that take a lot of voltage to get moving and a lot of power to operate, just real juice hogs. Bowser kits need to be assembled with care, especially with the valve gear. A poorly built kit will never run right without be taken completely down and almost started from scratch. Older AHM and Rivarossi steam locos often had valve gear that became sloppy and would bind. Most brass engines don't have these problems. That would be my only concern with buying on eBay and not having the opportunity to see the engine operate. I don't care because I can most often get an engine to operate well from past experience with the models. I've never received an engine yet on eBay that didn't run well, but I'm sure there are a few out there that are being sold because the owner is unhappy for one reason or another. If eBay is used just be sure that the seller has a return policy that meets your needs, must good eBayers have a track record of taken care of their buyers.

In brief, buy an engine that works well from the get-go and it most likely will give you hours of enjoyment. Buy an engine that isn't perfect with the thought of allowing someone with knowledge to be able to fine tune it to operate to your satisfaction. There are several large shops, Caboose Hobbies included, that have repairmen and painters of brass models that have the expertise to make even the poorest of brass engines operate like a swiss watch.

[ondrek]

a lot of great information i have recieved on this topic. This is great.
Now i want these even more.

What i really really need is a lesson on engine repair and maintenance, what to lube how to make a rough motor run better, replacing points, where to get points and such,

If i get one of these brass engine, i imagine that maintenance and up keep will be more important than say a rivarossi or bachmann.

When i was on the phone with the guy from Caboose Hobbies he said that one of the engines i was interested in had a hop because the sprung trucks needed adjustment in the spring. now, he explained how to adjust them, my question is, how often to they need to be adjusted? how do they get out of wack? is it possible i will be looking at more of a headache than a pleasure? i am not one of those who buys stuff just to look at, i use stuff.

Kevin

[twhite]

One thing I like about brass steam is that the pickup is from BOTH engine and tender, and ALL wheels (okay, maybe not the trailing trucks on some models), which beats some plastic steamers all to heck--for instance the Genesis USRA's, where the tender is just along for the ride. And they're easy to get into if you need to replace a motor or just do the usual maintenance. Three screws--okay, maybe five on an Articulated. And fond as I am of my BLI's and Heritage steamers, there's just something SOLID about that brass Articulated coming up the hill with a string of reefers behind it.
Tom

[Anonymous]

Kevin,
Another small item regarding Sunset Models or any other for that matter. I like to keep my engines in their original boxes and packing. You will find almost all brass engines of any vintage will have their original boxes. The box shows the manufacturer, the importer, and the specifics of the engine.

The boxes definitely have a value to be associated with the engine. I've bought a few engines I really wanted without the box, but rarely. Caboose Hobbies will have a notation with their models if they do not come with the original box. If you are purchasing a model that is to be shipped to you the original box and packing will certainly help in assuring that the model arrives in good condition. Some collectors won't buy a brass engine without a box, so even though you intend on keeping the model for years to come, the day you sell the engine the box will increase the value of the engine.

[nobullchitbids]

I am one who builds (or, to be absolutely honest, rebuilds) brass models, and given what I know goes into that, I can say with certainty that brass locomotives, particularly the Japanese ones from the 70s, are EXTREMELY low priced, even today. While it is true a rebuilder has neither jigs nor computerized power equipment, still it comes as no surprise to me that the people who put these models together probably were getting little more than fifty cents an hour for their efforts -- one reason why the price of brass keeps going up. Does the model-railroading community understand that the list price for many of these models "back then" was as little as $40 apiece for a switcher or about $70 for a road engine? And the number of units made of any particular prototype almost always was less than a thousand and sometimes as few as 50.

Go price a United States gold coin of similar rarity today and see what you would pay if you were in a more "respectable" hobby. It is amazing to me that the prices are not even higher than they are.

Labor, of course, is only one of the elements which goes into escalating brass prices -- a detailed locomotive requires detailed parts, and they are not cheap either. True, a builder like Samhongsa or Ajin or United or Tenshodo would buy parts in bulk lots, so they were not paying what we pay when we order something individually from Cal Scale; but, the point still needs to be made that these are AMERICAN parts made for American wages -- Lee English does not work for 50 cents an hour, and neither would anyone reading this forum.

Any who think that the price of brass is high are hereby challenged to a little adventure: Order a distributor set from Cal Scale -- the set consists of a distributor, equalizing tank, and a pump governor -- and prep it for installation into one of those older brass locos without this level of detail. Prepping is easy: Just drill five # 78 holes into the distributor, a # 78 and a # 73 hole into the tank, and a # 76 hole through the governor (already cored -- just clean it out); drill two corresponding # 78 holes under the engineman's position in the cab (one for a distributor feed, one for the tank's feed), plus mounting holes for the distributor and tank; then, using .015" wire for the tank and distributor and .020" wire for the governor, mount the parts with silver solder and plumb them [two of the loose distributor feeds plug into the extension from the cab brake, and the # 73 hole is for a Cal Scale closed drain ****; the governor fits round the steam feed from the turret to the air pump(s), and don't forget to add the tee and cutoff valves, which also may need to be cored]; finally, drill a # 78 hole into the open end of the cutoff ****, so that an observer will be looking into a pipe, not a wire.

You will need a small vice, an Indian twist drill, appropriate bits, a set of Swiss pattern files, silver solder and flux, small needlenose pliers, a miniature gas torch, a couple of loose alligator clips, a couple of haemostats to serve as clamps or heat sinks, tweezers, and last but definitely not least, a jeweler's loop (so you can see what you are doing). You will also need a dictionary (to look up all of the four-letter words you will use when everything goes wrong).

And that is just to upgrade a portion of the airbrake system!

This level of craftsmanship is not easy to attain, not easy to maintain, and not easy to pay for. The Japanese priced themselves out of the market, then the Koreans, and eventually the Chinese will also. Perhaps, at that point, we still will be able to find someone to do this kind of work cheaply in Africa, or in India or Pakistan, but I am not holding my breath. I suspect that, fifty to one hundred years from now, brass models will be made the way they originally were made -- individually, by individual model railroaders, who are not running a business, not looking for profit, but are wanting to own fine models of interesting equipment and have no other way to obtain them.

At that point, model railroading will have come full circle, and who knows: By then we may even have discovered how to bring Al Kalmbach back to life! [:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Texas,
I had almost forgotten about the noisy drives in some of the diesels. Hallmark Models had a Korean builder than seemed to know how to make the engines louder than the prototype. One club member had a four unit lash-up of Hallmark GP-35 diesels and you could hear them running 100 feet away from the far end of the layout. Up close they sounded like metal to metal grinding away. We often wondered how so much noise could come out of such a small model. They did improve a little as they wore in, but not much. Fortunately brass steam engines follow a common design that makes them far quieter and a lot easier to work on.

I attended a club Christmas show at the Menlo Park Model Railroaders clubhouse in the old SP freight station in Menlo Park, California last Friday night. One member had an old brass Max Gray SP 4-8-2 engine running that had been used on open houses for the past 25 years. The owner said he estimated the engine had about 4,000 hours running time on it. He did take good care of it, lubed and serviced it at least annually, but that's a lot of time on any engine. Max Gray models were sold up until about 1965 so this particular steam loco is almost 40 years old at best. The often heard theory that die-cast and plastic will hold up longer than delicate brass just isn't accurate. Plus you can pull the body off a brass steam loco with three screws and install a new motor in probably 15 minutes if the need arises.

Hallmark Models of the era of the noisy drivers are priced accordingly in the marketplace. The past 10 years have seem a dramatic improvement in diesel offerings in brass and the engines have an extremely fine-tuned and smooth drive system. Diesels from Overland and Challenger Imports are up to museum standards in every way.

The lost-wax castings used on brass engines are so detailed in comparison to their counterparts on die-cast and plastic models. Brass engines have running boards, cab walls and roofs contoured properly and with correct thickness of material, nothing bulky. Boiler design and other distinguishing details of each model are done much more accurately than the typical mass produced model.

I have nothing against Bowser and have assembled a few of their models over the years, but Bowser has been around since at least the early 50's. Their engines up until the 60's were selling in kit form for about $19.50 and up. The Challenger use to be a $39.95 engine. There are thousands of Bowser models floating around the country, and the new models are not that much different from the original Bowser kits. With the brass models you get the benefit of more attention to detail and accuracy and a limited production model.

The new plastic models that are coming out of China are superb, and seem worth the money in light of all the fine detail and quality that goes into them. It doesn't seem like it would be a fair comparison to put even the new plastic engines up against the die-cast models with 50 year old technology.

If you don't mind spending a little time you can find good bargains in brass and have a great engine at a fair price. In the early 90's brass locos were selling for 2 or 3 times the price of die-cast or plastic. Now that the prices have become so similar it would seem the brass models would be true bargain in comparison.

[tatans]

Texas Zepher AND ondrek ::: possibly the 2 best replies to the age old quandry on brass. 2 points about brass (there are only 2) 1. QUALITY--this is questionable with todays plastic and newer technology. 2. PRICE: Here's the big sticker, if you can afford to buy brass, what's the problem? That IS the problem. $500.00 is a lot of coin, so, is it ONE engine or 5 engines (just like in real life) I feel I'm the luckiest stiff in the world, I got an old brass United Berkshire at an online auction for $50.00, spent another $30.00 reconditioning it, and it truly is a work of art, now I need a brass tender which I'm sure I will never see. A question to ask ANY model railroader : If you could afford to buy a brass engine would you? I know the answer would be 100% YES. Again, the above comments are the best responses I have ever seen on brass in this forum. Thanks

[ondrek]

Texas Zepher-

i can not comment on diesel engines as i have not a one.

From what i learned today, these Sunset models are right in line with prices compared to the browser brand. infact the built up Sunset is less than the built up Bowser.
I know that there is a difference there, used brass vs new diecast, but the brass ones i was after, the guy said there was very very little wear on them, most of the time when one buys a brass model they tend not to use them. so to me they are new.

well, i am going to go for the sunsets as long as i can muster up the $
I would have to do the same if i was to go after a proto 2k as well, and if i was to buy one of those instead, i would still not have the engine i really wanted, so again i would still be wanting the sunset and spent more money for nothing in the process.

If i had purchased these two sunsets way back when i first started buying engines, i would have a lot fewer engines and honestly less money tied up in them too boot!

Kevin

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ondrek
why do people bash brass?

It depends on the model. I'm a "brass basher" on two points 1. Most HO brass EMD E and F units don't have correct curves / slope on the nose. 2. Brass diesel models drive mechanisms fell way behind the plastic ones in the early 1980s. Some sounded worse than the old blue box Athearn. While I haven't purchased any brass diesel since then, I assume they have corrected that problem now.

But with the steam, it was only the introduction of the Proto Heritage and Trix that plastic has even gotten close to brass in detail, and equaled it in operational quality. There still hasn't been a plastic steamer made with equalized drivers or floating transmission.

I am guessing that much of the brass bashing is just human nature to make one feel better about their own station. Unconsciously something like, "I'll make fun of it to make me feel better about not being able to afford any." I do find it interesting that many of the brass bashers (at least on rec.modelrailroad) were the same people who were the "quality bigots" when it came to the plastic models. You know the ones, won't recommend anything but a Kato or Genesis even if the user is going to be a 7 year old.

It always comes down to how much one is willing to pay for a small percentage increase in quality. Some people are willing to pay it in autos, others in stereo equipment, and yet others in Model Railroading. America by default always says they want quality but very seldom are willing to pay for it. We have proved it many times in many different markets the most dramatic being VHS vs Beta.