I have always used Testors Liquid Cement for assemblying kits but picked up some Plastruct Plastic Weld last week for another project and decided to try it out on a Branchline boxcar kit last night.
Well, I don't know about the rest of you but I found Plastruct WAY TOO aggresive for delicate work: It would melt and evaporate the surface so quickly that any pre-drilled holes started filming over and the part would no longer fit into the hole. In fact, it fried the brush I was using to apply the Plastruct with. Does Plastruct have that much higher concentration of MEK than the Testor's; the latter containing "acetates and methyethylketone"???
The Plastruct was recommended in the Highliner assembly instructions. Are there any assembly tips & tricks you can share for using the stuff and what brushes to use/avoid. If I can get away with using the Testor's on the Highliner kit I will - just for the extra working time.
Thanks,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Okay, I just ran across the following thread from 2009:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/161310.aspx
So it looks like Plastruct is for bonding dissimilar plastics together and Bondene is more for styrene-to-styrene bonding, which - IIRC from a discussion with someone at an LHS - has a longer working time. Does that seem right?
tstage It would melt and evaporate the surface so quickly that any pre-drilled holes started filming over and the part would no longer fit into the hole. In fact, it fried the brush I was using to apply the Plastruct with.
It would melt and evaporate the surface so quickly that any pre-drilled holes started filming over and the part would no longer fit into the hole. In fact, it fried the brush I was using to apply the Plastruct with.
Hey Tom-
I'm not sure what this sentence means. If you're assembling something along the lines of "insert Tab A into Hole B", then you should assemble the stuff first and then barely touch the wet brush to the (dry) joint and capillary action will draw the solvent in and weld the parts. Applying liquid to the two parts first and then sticking them together might end up as you described.
I've never fried a brush. For delicate areas, small brush; large areas, large brush. For very delicate areas, I have a micro-pipette that delivers tiny little droplets of solvent upon contact with the joint.
Hope this helps.
Robert
EDIT Added this link Solvent Weld Micro-Applicator
LINK to SNSR Blog
Tom,
I don't know what to tell You......I have been using Plastruct Plastic Weld orange bottle for a very long time and don't have any problem's with it. But I believe I learned a few things. One being when gluing small parts together less is more. Put a dab on both pieces You want to join...don't fill the hole with it. You can coat both pieces of a long part and it will appear dry, but when touched together, they will bond just like contact cement. I also use it on all plastic's, styrene, ABS, together and like materials......no problem. My scratch/ bash bridge project is styrene and ABS plastic all mixed plastic's and Did not have a problem with the glue and it is extremely strong,,,should be, I have to handle it a lot while setting up the abutments and piers.
The brush You are using to apply it with, is probably a synthetic......lacquer thinner will probably glue it together also. I use nothing but Camel hair and Red sable brushes and don't have any problems with that. I also read that post You linked to,(before I joined the forums Btw) and I must say....I do not agree with what they said.......My opinion only of course.....only about buying the MEK in quarts, but You can get lacquer thinner to do the same thing do I agree with.
Take Care!
Frank
The Plastruct Plastic Weld label states "multi-purpose......for bonding Plastruct ABS, Styrene, Butyrate and Acrylic to itself or each other." I always assumed that "each other" included styrene to styrene.
That said, I don't like it. It seems to be very thick and doesn't flow well. It also quickly develops a big wad on the bristles of the small brush I use to apply it. I have had better luck with the Testors liquid, Ambroid Pro-Weld when I could find it, or Micro Mark Same Stuff which actuially appears to be the "same stuff" as the Pro-Weld right down to the packaging.
I have not yet experimented with the "get it by the gallon" lacquer thinner or MEK which someone will inevitably recommend.
The Plastuct Glue I use has a brush built in. What's wrong with it?
tstage Does Plastruct have that much higher concentration of MEK than the Testor's; the latter containing "acetates and methyethylketone"???
Does Plastruct have that much higher concentration of MEK than the Testor's; the latter containing "acetates and methyethylketone"???
I use 100% MEK for my styrene work. You can't get a higher concentration than that. I've never had it fry a brush or fill in holes or whatever. It just works.
I do use a natural brush. I think I bought mine back before "un-natural" brushes were available. Used it for decades. Like I said, no "frying".
The ONLY problem I ever had with MEK is, when the bottle gets "old", it sucks up water out of the air and gets diluted. And won't bond anymore. Which is kind of an "opposite" problem.
MEK isn't your problem.
Ed
I appreciate the responses, fellas. The brush I used was natural hair. It seemed that something on the brush handle was not MEK compatible and smeared onto the bristles on the brush; leaving them useless.
The brush that comes with the bottle works fine. It's just too large for fine work.
I have only ever used Testors. I have not had problems and it performs up to my expectations. There was a rumor that Testors was going to change their formula, and I bought over 50 bottles of it in a panic. I hope it has a long shelf life.
.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
zstripe ...buying the MEK in quarts, but You can get lacquer thinner to do the same thing...
I was a big proponent for lacquer thinner as a cement for styrene, but the bastardised version now being sold in Canada will not work at all as a cement for styrene.I switched to MEK, which works well, but evapourates too quickly when used on large surface areas, even when applied with a 2" brush. At $40.00 a gallon (and a puny U.S. gallon at that), it's about twice as much as I was paying for lacquer thinner, back in the days when it still worked as a cement for styrene. It's still cheaper than buying styrene cement meant for modelling, though.
Wayne
doctorwayneI switched to MEK, which works well, but evapourates too quickly when used on large surface areas, even when applied with a 2" brush.
Wayne,
When I want to glue a large area......I scuff both surfaces and apply adhesive also to both surfaces.....even when slightly dried the Plastruct/MEK will still stick together......but just like contact cement, You only have one shot to position the pieces.
Here in the US....they sell Lacquer thinner in many of the big box stores, some of which is the mild solution. Automotive paint/body supply outfits still sell( and always will sell, I was told) the real lacquer thinner. I use it for many things so I buy the 5 gal size which is 34.00 US. A one gallon can of the same..is 17.00. Figure that one out. The 5gal size has a double wall type can though to minimize evap....I'm just about out, after 6yrs. I checked the price and it went up 2 dollars. The kind I use is prohibited for sale in California and Canada.
A little over a year ago, I used Plastruct Plastiweld to scratch build a large structure. The project involved bonding 0.020" styrene brick sheet to 0.040" styrene brick sheet. Plastiweld worked like a charm, performing like contact cement, but I had to work fast because Plastiweld dries fast. At times, I had to overcoat the surfaced to be bonded. But, overall, I was satisfied. However, on small surfaces such as gluing windows and doors, I found that Plastiweld did not hold well, so I reverted to Testors Liquid Cement in the oddly shaped black plastic bottle with the needle nose applicator.
Just yesterday, I started a project using DPM Modulars. On these smaller surfaces, Plastiweld did not work so well, making it difficult to hold pieces together. However, I do find Plastiweld useful in its capillary action as it soaks into connecting surfaces, forming a tighter bond.
My conclusion about Plastruct Plastiweld is that it has its place, but it is not the answer to every gluing problem. It seems to work best in bonding large surfaces together and in filling spaces of connecting pieces through its capillary action.
Rich
Alton Junction
SeeYou190 There was a rumor that Testors was going to change their formula, and I bought over 50 bottles of it in a panic. I hope it has a long shelf life. -Kevin
There was a rumor that Testors was going to change their formula, and I bought over 50 bottles of it in a panic. I hope it has a long shelf life.
You're stuck with them now, Kevin...
richhotrainJust yesterday, I started a project using DPM Modulars. On these smaller surfaces, Plastiweld did not work so well, making it difficult to hold pieces together. However, I do find Plastiweld useful in its capillary action as it soaks into connecting surfaces, forming a tighter bond.
Rich,
It has been My experience when working with plastic's such as DPM, is to lightly sand both contact surfaces with 180 grit sand paper, then join together, even using the capillary action. The sanded surface opens up the shiney surface of the plastic and gives the adhesive a head start on the weld/melt. Done that way, it produces an even stronger bond. A lot of people don't want to take the time to do that, but it only takes a few seconds to lightly sand it. Testers glue is more of a surface adhesive, not a weld. It will in some cases appear to work better.......but I guarantee it is not as strong. I started out many years ago using Testers tube glue, it was messy and I guess ok for the time...Then started using DOPE, paint & glue...was great! But very aggressive etc. They took it off the market due to hazards to Your health which is true, also got You high. Not long after Testers came out with liquid glue...which was also very good for building models and no mess.......but......almost all the models that I used it on, cars, trucks, airplanes, in time, parts would come off from handling.....it did not weld like others adhesive's do and that is what I don't like about using it. It's more of a young modelers cement that gotta get it done now use than a Fine Scale Modelers use. There are so many adhesives and specialty products out there basically with the same ingrediants, that many will do the job...with some patience and experience with using them.....there's the key!
tstage I appreciate the responses, fellas. The brush I used was natural hair. It seemed that something on the brush handle was not MEK compatible and smeared onto the bristles on the brush; leaving them useless. The brush that comes with the bottle works fine. It's just too large for fine work. Tom
I don't put the handle of my brush into the MEK, just the bristles and, usually, the ferrule.
I wonder if there could be some sort of glue that the manufacturer of the brush used to keep the bristles in the ferrule. It's my impression that "real" brushes are built such that the ferrule uses mechanical pressure to hold the bristles, not glue.
The one I use I bought years ago for brush painting. It's a Grumbacher 626-R. Made in Ireland by leprechauns. There's one on Amazon currently for sale for $8.
zstripe richhotrain Just yesterday, I started a project using DPM Modulars. On these smaller surfaces, Plastiweld did not work so well, making it difficult to hold pieces together. However, I do find Plastiweld useful in its capillary action as it soaks into connecting surfaces, forming a tighter bond. Rich, It has been My experience when working with plastic's such as DPM, is to lightly sand both contact surfaces with 180 grit sand paper, then join together, even using the capillary action. The sanded surface opens up the shiney surface of the plastic and gives the adhesive a head start on the weld/melt. Done that way, it produces an even stronger bond. A lot of people don't want to take the time to do that, but it only takes a few seconds to lightly sand it.
richhotrain Just yesterday, I started a project using DPM Modulars. On these smaller surfaces, Plastiweld did not work so well, making it difficult to hold pieces together. However, I do find Plastiweld useful in its capillary action as it soaks into connecting surfaces, forming a tighter bond.
It has been My experience when working with plastic's such as DPM, is to lightly sand both contact surfaces with 180 grit sand paper, then join together, even using the capillary action. The sanded surface opens up the shiney surface of the plastic and gives the adhesive a head start on the weld/melt. Done that way, it produces an even stronger bond. A lot of people don't want to take the time to do that, but it only takes a few seconds to lightly sand it.
Not clear to me why Plastruct makes Bondene when PlasticWeld can be used on similar or dissimilar product. I get great results with it. Always liked Tanax but my LHS doesn't stock it because he says it shrinks/evaporates once the bottle is opened. Sure enough, I checked when I got home and found that I had less than I recalled in the bottle I had.
Another reason Tenax cement isn't stocked is because it isn't available. As in: it's a collector's item, now.
Paul D . . . he says it shrinks/evaporates once the bottle is opened. Sure enough, I checked when I got home and found that I had less than I recalled in the bottle I had.
. . . he says it shrinks/evaporates once the bottle is opened. Sure enough, I checked when I got home and found that I had less than I recalled in the bottle I had.
Once opened, the content does shrink. And with use, it gets a little cloudy, or even a lot cloudy. Bits of the structure dissolve on the wet brush and get deposited back into the bottle. Like getting peanut butter in the jelly jar.
I have been using Faller Super-Expert styrene glue I got at Southside Trains
at Trainfest. I have used Plasticweld in the past but have had control issues
using the large brush in the cap.Faller has a cleanable hollow metal tip that allows more precise control of the glue.I have built several Walthers buildings and a scratch-built firehouse with superb results. I'm sold on the stuff and no evaporation issues since the bottle is self contained .
UPDATE: Since I originally posted this thread I've had a chance to try and experiment with the Plastruct Plastic Weld. While it is more aggressive, I've found that the Plastruct does hold better (and more quickly) than the Tester's. I find that I can also achieve some fairly fine adhesive application using just the brush that comes with the bottle; mainly because the brush bristles in the Plastruct bottle don't curve and splay out like they do in the Testor's bottle.
So, while I will continue to use Testor's liquid adhesive for some applications, I'll definitely continue to use the Plastruct for a number of other applications.
As long as You gave an update......I thought I would fix the pic's.....even added one. Like I said above Plastruct Plastic weld is very strong when used correctly and for even stronger joints..lightly sand both pieces to be joined. I would not have even attempted doing the scratched bridge project with Testers.
Re control issues: I used to have that problem until I went into my local CVS and bought a few hypodermic needles for 25 cents a piece. Problem solved. Because they're air tight, glue doesn't foul the barrel of the needle. I squirt the rest back into the Plastruct bottle, draw some alcohol into the needle a few times, rinse with water . . . good as new.
Steve McDonough I have been using Faller Super-Expert styrene glue I got at Southside Trains at Trainfest. ... Faller has a cleanable hollow metal tip that allows more precise control of the glue.
at Trainfest. ... Faller has a cleanable hollow metal tip that allows more precise control of the glue.
I second Steve's recommendation for the Faller product, which I first saw used in a Miles Hale instructional DVD video about building a DPM structure kit, but it was also strongly endorsed by Tom at South Side Trains here in Milwaukee. From time to time the narrow steel tube gunks up (shaking the bottle sometimes helps) but I find that touching a match to it ever so briefly (after removing it from the bottle itself, of course, and note that the threads are reversed from normal American practice when you do so) it's as good as new again. I am a total convert to Faller.
Dave Nelson
Just some info......Faller cement contains Acetone 20%, a little more than you would find in Lacquer thinner......that's really where the welding comes from. Plastruct Plastic Weld main ingredient is MEK, which is also found in Lacquer thinner, not as agressive as full strength Acetone. Both of which you will find in Automotive Lacquer thinner, not the big box store kind. Prohibitted in California and Canada, probably some other states, that I am not aware of.....things change fast, in chemical dispersement to the general public.
Would have taken Me forever to build My bridge with that adhesive......
For finer work if you don't have Microbrushes handy clip the Plastruct brush at a steep angle so you don't pour on the glue into areas you don't want glue to be seen.Stopped using it recently becuse it evaporates so quickly in the sealed bottle;thanks goodness for the Faller glue!
Steve
Steve McDonoughStopped using it recently becuse it evaporates so quickly in the sealed bottle;
Steve,
I don't understand this part......I have used probably......certain that I have used over 15 bottles of Plastruct Plastic Weld orange bottle and never had any evaporate in the bottle. I never go below a half a bottle at a time. When I get to that point (1/2 bottle) I fill it with a new bottle and keep the half filled bottle in My desk drawer and use it to repeat the process. Sometimes that half filled bottle sits in My desk drawer for over a yr. and it is still a half bottle.
As far as using a Micro-brush for applying...it's only a one shot deal, can't be used again for applying the cement. I cut the brush head off and use the handle for applying CA to detail parts on models or even stick a mini alligator clip on the handle and use it for holding small parts to be painted with air-brush/ brush....sometimes multiple parts in many different holders. I stick the handle in a hole drilled in a piece of white pine to dry or paint. When I get to the point of too much paint on the brass alligator clip, I soak it in lacquer thinner, paint comes right off. I really never found a need to use a needle applicator for applying adhesive to anything I have built over the past 67yrs. started in HO in 1950 when I was 8yrs. old. That includes wood ship building.
Frank, I have to believe that he meant that it evaporates quickly in an unsealed bottle. If he did mean that, the solution, of course, is to close the bottle between each application of the glue. That takes a bit more time and effort, but it's worth it. The last thing you want is to knock over an open bottle.
By the way, Frank, you recommended Plastic Weld to me when I was scratch building that Coors Family Mansion, and it is now my adhesive of choice.
And as long as You are here......In Your other thread about the resins. I had a feeling You were going to say the resin was Polyurethane resin and it has been My experience with working with that type of resin....is that it is brittle..meaning that it will break before it bends and using the resin to resin for adhesive is an iffy at best, to produce a strong bond...it will break at the seam. I was thinking that possibly You were using Fiberglass resin, which can be bonded with same and a lot stronger than what You are using. Also using epoxy or ca is about the only choice for gluing what You are using. All those Sylvan trucks I make are Polyurethane resin and the ony thing I use for adhesive is Zap-A-Gap Medium CA+ which still flows easy, but is thicker than most CA's. I can also bond most metals to the resin parts using it and produces a very strong bond.
Frank, I responded on that thread with some info about the chemical properties of the resin. Check it out if you haven't done so.
I also responded on one of my threads that CA did finally work after I bought a fresh bottle of Thin CA and applied it sparingly to only one side of the wall sections to be bonded together.