I have a pair of T1s and I don't particularly have any problems with them derailing. My main line curves are 34" or greater radius and turnouts on the main are #10, however, the T1s have no problems on my turnouts as low as #6 code 83 Shinohara.
Most of my main line curves are superelevated with the outer rail .040" above the inner rail. The transition is very critical.
One tool that I have used to "fine-tune" the track elevation is a flexible plastic ruler/straight edge. I have one that is 16" long but a 12" will do.
It may require the help of an other person but with the straight edge directly on the rail-head you can curve it to follow the track geometry. With good back-lighting you can observe any dips or raised areas. As careful as I could be when laying track, over the years there have been places where a high spot or low spot has developed. By observing the gap or "bump" where the straight edge meets the rail you can observe what corrective action may need to be taken.
I have corrected high spots by warming the rail with a 35 W. soldering iron and when the ties get soft press the rail down with a 6" or so steel straight edge.
A low spot is a little trickier if you have ballast but you can wet the ballast enough to get a tool, I have a mini-tack puller but a small screw driver could work, too, then raise the low spot and shim it until the ballast glue sets again or the shim is held in place.
Another handy tool is one of the small digital levels available. These can be run along your track to locate any side-to-side elevation problems.
http://www.micromark.com/Miniature-Digital-Level
I found mine on Amazon, there are others available.
I had to make some corrections recently when I recieved the Broadway Limited P70 coaches. These cars have NO forgiveness in the lateral play! I have made several attempts at freeing the trucks but they will require a little more work.
Still, there were two places in my track work that these cars found and they didn't like the condition. Sure enough, one was at a place where the superelevation transition was just a little too much of a drop. A few carefully placed .010" shims took care of the issue.
Good Luck, Ed
Might have a problem convincing the club members to replace track in several location because one loco has a problem, may be the actual solution but an interesting sell job may be required.
ATSFGuy Any LHS (Local hobby Shops) near you? If yes, then you can take your locomotive and they will fix it for you.
Any LHS (Local hobby Shops) near you? If yes, then you can take your locomotive and they will fix it for you.
What would they "fix?"
That could be the answer. I would defeintely repalce a faulty piece of track before peforming surgery on that locomotive. Real railroads do it all the time...
I've got a BLI T1. BLI makes great stuff, but the T1 is the most unforgiving loco I have. I'm not a prototype guy, so I have a lot of stuff that has no business being on the same layout, but it's my thing my rules so I win. Everything runs flawlessly* at any speed except that T1. 2-8-8-2 cab forward, big boy, GG1, PA A-B consists, a dozen other locos down to an 0-8-0. Have one small section on a 30" curve where the T1 derailed at medium speed. Finally figured out three tie plates weren't holding the outer rail firm and the rail would occasionally pop up (Atlas c83 flex). Maybe half a millimeter of "Pop". Didn't bother anything else but the T1.
*my limited track laying skills don't allow for 100% flawless, but derailments are very rare.
richhotrain BMMECNYC richhotrain The PRR T1 4-4-4-4 certainly would not have been my first loco. Why take on such a challenge, especially on someone else's layout? Rich Im talking about the 12" to the foot thing: https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/ BMMECNYC, I was referring to the choice of the T1 as Steven's first loco. Rich
BMMECNYC richhotrain The PRR T1 4-4-4-4 certainly would not have been my first loco. Why take on such a challenge, especially on someone else's layout? Rich Im talking about the 12" to the foot thing: https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/
richhotrain The PRR T1 4-4-4-4 certainly would not have been my first loco. Why take on such a challenge, especially on someone else's layout?
Rich Im talking about the 12" to the foot thing: https://prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/
BMMECNYC, I was referring to the choice of the T1 as Steven's first loco.
Rich
I suspect that he bought that before he joined the club. My first HO scale loco in recent times was the Bachmann Alco 2-6-0.
Alton Junction
JOHN C TARANTO The problem is the locomotive's shrouding and the lettering on the tender. The locomotive below would have no problem negotiating those curves. "Shovel all the coal in, gotta keep 'em rolling!"
The problem is the locomotive's shrouding and the lettering on the tender. The locomotive below would have no problem negotiating those curves.
"Shovel all the coal in, gotta keep 'em rolling!"
Love the T1 disguised as a J3. Its pretty hard to tell where they streched the streamling in that photo.
richhotrainThe PRR T1 4-4-4-4 certainly would not have been my first loco. Why take on such a challenge, especially on someone else's layout?
They couldnt be used on many parts of the PRR when the track was "dialed in" for steam (see Railfan and Railroad 1987 issue (September? or August?) about 611). But Im glad they are doing it. If sucessful here, its a spring board for other projects (manufacturing expertise of steam locomotive components).
tstage BMMECNYC Honestly would rather see a NYC Hudson built new. You and me both, BMMECNYC...
BMMECNYC Honestly would rather see a NYC Hudson built new.
You and me both, BMMECNYC...
The PRR T1 4-4-4-4 certainly would not have been my first loco. Why take on such a challenge, especially on someone else's layout?
Unless BLI has reconfigured their newest versions of the T1 Duplex, the axles don't need any play. The two center axles have blind drivers so that the two outer driver axles are the only ones where the flanges keep the train railed. This leaves this rigid-framed locomotive to run its blind drivers well inboard of the inner rails on a curve, the tighter the curve the more the innerhang.
My earlier Paragon version with a QSI decoder is a towing beast, and runs very well on tracks that are not bumpy. My curves were all superelevated, too.
I found that whenever I introduced a new locomotive to my layout, it found a section of track it didn't like. When I fixed the problem, but so that the rest of the engines would also play nicely on it, everything went perfectly from then on. I would blame the tracks before blaming the locomotive, but until I had a look at it, it's hard to say.
BMMECNYCHonestly would rather see a NYC Hudson built new.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
richhotrain I don't believe that we ever got clarification from the OP as to which wheels he is talking about. Is it the pilot truck that needs more "play"? Or is the front set of driver wheels? Or is he talking about the entire front set of four driver wheels? Rich
I don't believe that we ever got clarification from the OP as to which wheels he is talking about.
Is it the pilot truck that needs more "play"?
Or is the front set of driver wheels?
Or is he talking about the entire front set of four driver wheels?
It could be as simple as an S curve. Even an gentle one will cause havoc with those T1s. One of my club members has a T1, and it derails on the diverging route of a turnout when the track curves back to parallel. It is a Peco medium turnout with some radius curve starting right after it.
Also makes me wonder how well the prototype one is going to run when they finish building it.... The N&W's design is far superior solution to the problem the T1s sort of solved IMO.
Honestly would rather see a NYC Hudson built new.
richhotrain 7j43k Rich, 8 drivers. Not 16. Oops ! I must have assumed that Steven already kitbashed two of them together. Rich
7j43k Rich, 8 drivers. Not 16.
Rich,
8 drivers. Not 16.
Oops !
I must have assumed that Steven already kitbashed two of them together.
I guess that would be a TT1. Yikes! That would be a beast.
Ed
Steven says he has his diagnosis. And he's the guy who's got the problem. A lot of us think he's wrong. And we've presented our case. Steven, after all of that, has asserted he has the diagnosis.
I have given him suggestions for work he might do on his locomotive.
The club? If Steven was satisfied with all that the club was doing for him, he wouldn't have come here.
And, yes, I saw no rudeness from Mobileman. I think Steven is in error there.
mobilman44 Perhaps the "club" members could work this problem better than the folks on this forum..............
cascadenorthernrr Theres no need to get rude. I'm just saying that the problem has been diagnosed already now I need a solution.
All it takes is a small dip/rise,even a slight kink in the trackwork......I would not rule that out....before doing surgery on a fine Locomotive......
Take Care!
Frank
cascadenorthernrr I'm just saying that the problem has been diagnosed already now I need a solution.
I'm just saying that the problem has been diagnosed already now I need a solution.
the diagnosis, I believe:
"...came to the conclusion that the front driver truck does not have enough "play" to traverse slightly superelevated track without the front drivers jumping the track."
the beginning of the solution:
"How can I add some "play" to the truck to allow it to navigate the turn?"
It sounds like you want more lateral motion in the drivers. Use of the term "superelevation" might lead a person to desire VERTICAL slack. I seriously doubt that can be done. And I seriously doubt that this loco NEEDS that. You can get lateral motion by loosening up the sideplay in any two drivers. For a model, I think the ideal would be the inner two (of four driving axles). But I might modify that choice so as not to be working on a geared axle.
Anyway, someone is going to have to disassemble your drive train and figure out how to remove some metal. The bearings may have to be moved closer together, or possibly some metal will have to be removed from the side of the frame. A lot of "how to specifically do it" will have to be figured out with the model in hand. So far, no one here has mentioned that they have done that. Perhaps someone somewhere has, and can give concrete and specific advice. And perhaps you will have to do it on your own.
PS: You might try contacting BLI. They may well be of some help.
Theres no need to get rude. I'm just saying that the problem has been diagnosed already now I need a solution.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Perhaps the "club" members could work this problem better than the folks on this forum..............
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I understand all that, but the second engine or set of drivers have a little give to the truck so it doesn't derail in reverse.
cascadenorthernrr There are some other spots too but this one is the one I observed the most.
There are some other spots too but this one is the one I observed the most.
Oooohhhh. There's other derailment locations, eh?
It could be useful to catalog them. And to see if there are any unifying characteristics. Is it curves? What radius? More superelevation? Is it switches? What size switches? What location in the switch? Does it happen only when the loco "curves" to the left? Or to the right?
Another relatively easy experiment is to remove the lead truck. That would be the first 4 in 4-4-4-4. Does it still derail? In the same way? It's less likely to be the lead truck, but it does happen.
If it's the loco, the question is: Why?
And finding that out is a matter of exploration.
Which is also kind of true for the track.
As states, the PRR T1 is a rigid frame engine, the two engines (wheels, siderods, and pistons constitute an 'engine' eg a Bog Boy has 2 engines) are rigid and not independent to swivel (on a prototype Big Boy, only one engine swivels, the other is rigidly mounted to the frame. On most models, both engines swivel like a pair of diesel trucks as a concession to tight radius curves). The T1 is nore like a 4-8-4 in that regard. Superelevation works on models (for appearance anyway), but like grades and curves it needs to transition in and out, you can't go from flat to having the outside rail jacked up a couple of millimeters. That much twist will raise a flange above the railhead and lead to derailments. Shorter diesel trucks can tilt and swivel and handle this, as can most rolling stoock with the trucks fastened in a 3 point suspension setup. But the long wheelbase of a steam loco - the track has to be much more carefully aligned.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.