ATLANTIC CENTRAL So which "captains of industry" are telling Lance we are not demanding high enough quality products? Mike Wolf and Bob Grubba? The two who are in the one upsmanship battle? The two who think we should pay ever higher prices for fancy gimmicks while they keep offering us "value added" versions of UP Big Boys? Well no thank you. Sheldon
Well no thank you.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
I made earlier comments that got slammed as being a bit conspiritorial by others, but they way you described what was said in the article combined with my observations about how Lance approaches building layouts, smelled like there was some self serving BS being pushed by someone. Now that I read that exact quote about producers and "hobby leaders" being in Lance's ear telling him that not enough customers wanting "superior" products, maybe there is a little truth to that.
- Douglas
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL So which "captains of industry" are telling Lance we are not demanding high enough quality products? Mike Wolf and Bob Grubba? The two who are in the one upsmanship battle? The two who think we should pay ever higher prices for fancy gimmicks while they keep offering us "value added" versions of UP Big Boys? Well no thank you. Sheldon Sheldon, I made earlier comments that got slammed as being a bit conspiritorial by others, but they way you described what was said in the article combined with my observations about how Lance approaches building layouts, smelled like there was some self serving BS being pushed by someone. Now that I read that exact quote about producers and "hobby leaders" being in Lance's ear and not enough customers wanting "superior" products, maybe there is a little truth to that.
I made earlier comments that got slammed as being a bit conspiritorial by others, but they way you described what was said in the article combined with my observations about how Lance approaches building layouts, smelled like there was some self serving BS being pushed by someone. Now that I read that exact quote about producers and "hobby leaders" being in Lance's ear and not enough customers wanting "superior" products, maybe there is a little truth to that.
If so, I would suspect it is a direct result of the manufacturers having Lance's ear, not something that came down from inside Model Railroader.......
That is why I charactized it the way I did, rather than a publishing conspiracy.
Remember, I worked in this business years ago, I've known some of these people.....
Yeah my error was to assume it was MR...which I really didn't even take my own statements seriously because I wouldn't expect that from MR. I had no idea at the time that lance was basically repeating someone else...and he says his own gut doesn't tell him that.
That quote and your comments helps make the situation make more sense..at least to me.
Personally, I appreciated Lance's willingness to stick his neck out and try to guess the future. Most attempts to do that start looking pretty silly as little as ten years later. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. I found the article enjoyable and thought-provoking. I agreed with some things he said more than others - so what? When I noticed this discussion I thought it was a great topic idea, but was disappointed to see how much of it wound up being about Lance rather than his predictions. Maybe there's a good reason for that; I honestly can't say that I've read enough of his stuff closely enough to have formed an opinion about whether he's condescending, overly opinionated, or whatever. So here's what I think - about Lance's ideas, not Lance himself.
I can certainly see the advantages of deadrail, especially as battery tech seems to be leaping forward right now. Honestly, if we were inventing the hobby from scratch today, this is probably the tech we'd base it on. However, the hobby wasn't invented yesterday, and the old system has been refined to yield pretty good results (most of the time - and then you get a mystery short somewhere).
The advantages of any new tech have to be enough to overcome the inertia of the established tech, and in this case that could take quite some time. It's just like in real railroading - if the industry was just now being invented, it probably wouldn't be using the air brake system or the current coupler design. But so far, those old ideas have been continually refined to keep them "good enough" that it just doesn't pay to re-equip the entire existing fleet. So, we'll see about deadrail - it's probably more a case of when than if.
I'm in near-total agreement with Lance on the sound question. I always wanted sound for my great pie-in-the-sky layout, but I have no interest in today's onboard sound solution. The simple, limited sound systems of the '70's and '80's have more appeal to me, simply because they sounded better. Lance's line about chest-thumping bass nails it - we feel passing trains as much as hear them. And yes, you can do that with a stage full of rock'n'roll speakers, but headphones just might be more practical in many applications (like whenever my wife is in the house).
I agree with Lance's view on smartphone control, and that at some point, the boomers who've been driving the demand for 50's-era models will have less influence on the market. I found his ideas about printing instead of painting surfaces to be especially interesting - this could be the 'sleeper' among all his predictions. Read that section closely - the possibilities are tremendous, and apply to all types of modeling and craftwork.
As for layout design, it's not unreasonable to guess that smaller, more technically sophisticated layouts will become more common. I think the hobby has always contained a strong cohort of technically savvy people, with the result that each generation of modelers has adopted new technologies. And as our population continues to grow and the middle class continues to wither, building smaller - as modelers always have in Europe and Japan - may be the only option for many North Americans.
Now, as for the future of my own layout, the size and tech parts are settled. The only remaining question is whether I'll get the darn scenery and structures finished before my time runs out.
...and at the risk of reigniting the secondary discussion here about Lance's March article on scenery and whether or not Victorian mansions are realistic, I'll simply point out that his exact words were "a candy factory, pickle factory, and Victorian mansion", not "candy factory, pickle factory, or Victorian mansion". I've done enough work in my life with computers and data to understand what a huge difference it makes when you use 'and' instead of 'or', or vice versa.
CNSF ...and at the risk of reigniting the secondary discussion here about Lance's March article on scenery and whether or not Victorian mansions are realistic, I'll simply point out that his exact words were "a candy factory, pickle factory, and Victorian mansion", not "candy factory, pickle factory, or Victorian mansion". I've done enough work in my life with computers and data to understand what a huge difference it makes when you use 'and' instead of 'or', or vice versa.
There you go, introducing logic into the discussion. Next thing you know, you'll introduce facts and the whole discussion will devolve into the equivalent of a howler monkey convention.
Now if Lance had said a Victorian mansion, a sewage treatment plant and a landfill, he might have made his point more accessible. OTOH, nobody would have paid any attention to him had he done that since no one in their right mind would do something like that. I've never heard of anyone modeling either a landfill and/or sewage treatment plant with or without an adjacent Victorian mansion. Come to think of it, I may be the only one to have thought of it.
Landfill:
https://tinyurl.com/zljybzv
Victorian mansion:
https://tinyurl.com/gsr7u38
Sewage treatment plant:
CNSF I found his ideas about printing instead of painting surfaces to be especially interesting - this could be the 'sleeper' among all his predictions. Read that section closely - the possibilities are tremendous, and apply to all types of modeling and craftwork.
I found his ideas about printing instead of painting surfaces to be especially interesting - this could be the 'sleeper' among all his predictions. Read that section closely - the possibilities are tremendous, and apply to all types of modeling and craftwork.
I've had this same idea, and I intend to use it on my current layout build. For pavement and pavement markings: railroad crossings, pedestrian crosswalks, no parking zones, handicap parking spaces, turn arrows, divider stripes, etc . . . not to mention the pavement surface itself. Print out full scale (full N scale, that is), attach with 3M spray mount adhesive, a little touch up, a little matte medium, then stand back and see what's what. Might work. I think it could be at least as good as painting, maybe a little better.
I'll post results as they occur.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
It must have something to do with the moon - the question of the future of model railroading keeps coming and going, just like the tide.
If you don´t mind me joining in the discussion, I´ll now get my crystal ball. "I see a tall, dark-haired stranger" - sorry, wrong forum.
In the last couple of years, we have ploughed through a number of issues connected with the future of the hobby, starting with the slow, but presumably inevitable death of the hobby, the sound or no sound question, the DCC vs. DC discussion, the smoke or no smoke drama and, more recently, the questions of bluetooth devices for train control and the dead rail issue.
I find these discussions to be of a rather academic nature, more of a "could be" than a "will be". It´s OK, that there are folks investing some thoughts into what direction the hobby will develop into - and I see Lance Mindheim´s ramblings in that sense - I don´t give a "dang" about it. My trains will continue to run on DC, picking up the juice from the rails, or even AC, as I have some old Marklin stuff I enjoy seeing run on a temporary set-up.
I don´t care what will be in 20, 30 or 40 years from now, as I definitively won´t be around then.
Guys,Here's the thing..Advancements in electronic wizardry gave us DCC and it will give us another option, battery power maybe but,who can say?
When that happens any bets saying we will not see DC vs. DCC vs. New fang dangled gizmo topics?
Some will hold to the old methods while others will embrace the newest fang dangled gizmo.
I can understand Lances point after the hobby keeps changing.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNSFI can certainly see the advantages of deadrail, especially as battery tech seems to be leaping forward right now. Honestly, if we were inventing the hobby from scratch today, this is probably the tech we'd base it on.
Actually back when the hobby was "invented", at least the getting them to move by themselves part, trains were operated by battery.
maxman CNSF I can certainly see the advantages of deadrail, especially as battery tech seems to be leaping forward right now. Honestly, if we were inventing the hobby from scratch today, this is probably the tech we'd base it on. Actually back when the hobby was "invented", at least the getting them to move by themselves part, trains were operated by battery.
CNSF I can certainly see the advantages of deadrail, especially as battery tech seems to be leaping forward right now. Honestly, if we were inventing the hobby from scratch today, this is probably the tech we'd base it on.
I thought it was alcohol with actual flame. I dont remember where I heard that (National Toy Train museum maybe, Im not sure).
The other early form of movement was wind up - German trains, German clock makers.........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The other early form of movement was wind up - German trains, German clock makers......... Sheldon
Makes sense.
CNSF I can certainly see the advantages of deadrail, especially as battery tech seems to be leaping forward right now. Honestly, if we were inventing the hobby from scratch today, this is probably the tech we'd base it on. However, the hobby wasn't invented yesterday, and the old system has been refined to yield pretty good results (most of the time - and then you get a mystery short somewhere).
As a person who operates short wheelbase switchers on speed step 1 over long frogs, I can see the advantages of self-powered locos and deadrail. I may be one of the few modelers who could say that I actually NEED it, moreso than the guy who runs big boys at 50 mph.
The problem with battery technology is size...and that's the irony right now. The batteries need to fit into the kind of locomotives they don't fit into very well. They will all fit into a big boy...but what motivates someone to make the switch to deadrail if his operating plan works just fine as it is.
When they are able to fit real sound and batteries into a switcher, I might be interested, since it would actually solve a problem and not just be a different way to do the same thing.
DoughlessThe problem with battery technology is size...and that's the irony right now. The batteries NEED to fit into the kind of locomotives they don't fit into very well.
That could be remedied as batteries in the shape of fuel tanks perhaps?
Not so long ago everybody said N Scale was to small for on board sound..Today you can buy N Scale DCC/Sound decoders.
BRAKIE Doughless The problem with battery technology is size...and that's the irony right now. The batteries NEED to fit into the kind of locomotives they don't fit into very well. That could be remedied as batteries in the shape of fuel tanks perhaps? Not so long ago everybody said N Scale was to small for on board sound..Today you can buy N Scale DCC/Sound decoders.
Doughless The problem with battery technology is size...and that's the irony right now. The batteries NEED to fit into the kind of locomotives they don't fit into very well.
Good point. That would solve the issue.
But big boys don't have fuel tanks. The locos that drive production apparently, like big boys, GEVOs, or GP9s and F units from 1954, don't really have an inherent need to be self powered.
Unless that market sees an advantage, battery power is longer off than it otherwise would be, IMO. The industry is not going to go through the expense of developing products for guys like you and me who need 2 switchers for their layout. I don't blame them. It makes no economic sense.
BRAKIEThat could be remedied as batteries in the shape of fuel tanks perhaps?
Youre thinking like old cell phone battery packs, or hand held radio pack?
The Walthers ML-8 is about as close as youre going to get. MR showed it running 18" off its onboard capacitor. Ive gotten an P2k Berk to coast on its TCS KA-2 for 2 feet under no load. Under load that distance drops to a foot or so. (The KA is in the berk for
I actually feel like the replacement for what we have now with wired track would actually be wireless power receivers, and that batteries are just a stopgap before this actually manifests itself.
Just think what the early MR experiences would have been like if Tesla had beaten Edison.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
The very first "model locos" actually used bits of coil for firing them up. The models were miniature demonstrators used by the loco manufacturers to be shown to potential customers. Later on, the engines used either alcohol or paraffine tablets for fuel.
Clockwork driven engines entered the market in the 1890´s, one of the first, if not the first one being Marklin´s famous "Stork Leg" loco.
Battery powered locos did not arrive before the late 1950´s, nearly 70 years after "the hobby was invented". They were never meant to be "serious" model trains, but rather cheap toys with a very short service life.
maxmanActually back when the hobby was "invented", at least the getting them to move by themselves part, trains were operated by battery.
True, but it wasn't even close to being an on-board battery, even in the much larger in bulk scales in use then.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Thinking about this whole conversation, maybe if Lance had just left out all the stuff about the manufacturers, existing modelers behaviors, advancing the hobby, and simply presented the ideas and their possible benefits, the reception may have been way different..........
I for one would likely not have gotten the feeling I was being "talked down to".....
BMMECNYC BRAKIE That could be remedied as batteries in the shape of fuel tanks perhaps? Youre thinking like old cell phone battery packs, or hand held radio pack?
BRAKIE That could be remedied as batteries in the shape of fuel tanks perhaps?
No, the battery would be the fuel tank with details. A service track with a small port for the charging cord.
I got the idea from my XBOX 360 rechargeable battery pack since it reminded me of a fuel tank.
https://www.amazon.com/Capacity-Rechargeable-Batteries-Charging-Wireless-Controller/dp/B00BXZTKVQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1488556298&sr=1-2&keywords=xbox360+rechargeable+battery+pack
BRAKIE BMMECNYC BRAKIE That could be remedied as batteries in the shape of fuel tanks perhaps? Youre thinking like old cell phone battery packs, or hand held radio pack? No, the battery would be the fuel tank with details. A service track with a small port for the charging cord. I got the idea from my XBOX 360 rechargeable battery pack since it reminded me of a fuel tank. https://www.amazon.com/Capacity-Rechargeable-Batteries-Charging-Wireless-Controller/dp/B00BXZTKVQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1488556298&sr=1-2&keywords=xbox360+rechargeable+battery+pack
Yes, kind of the same deal. The battery pack was an integral part of the exterior of the cell phone, and was detachable.
On a side note, it is super hard to type when you have 2 furry 4 leg helpers sitting on your keyboard.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Thinking about this whole conversation, maybe if Lance had just left out all the stuff about the manufacturers, existing modelers behaviors, advancing the hobby, and simply presented the ideas and their possible benefits, the reception may have been way different.......... I for one would likely not have gotten the feeling I was being "talked down to"..... Sheldon
Nailed it. Too many times I feel articles in MR are talking down to me.
In contrast the latest Classic Trains issue is magnificent.
John
What do I think will happen?
DCC can go in the dumpster it belongs in. Was it nice for its time? Yes. Does it work now? Yes. Are there better alternatives now? Yes.
Blurail type stuff will put DCC to the curb, it will take time, but everyone has a cell phone and the ability to download.................... You just eliminated a lot of $$$ on equipment that you need to buy right off the bat.
Batteries???????????? hahahahahhahahahahhaahahha NO! Maybe one day, but not now and useless for anyone other than having one engine on a small layout. Yes they are eons better than 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago, but still not up to the task now in HO(I can't speak for larger scales but they have room for far greater battery capacity)
Headphones? I don't think so. The best bet now and for the anywhere near term future would be some effects on the locomotive itself coupled with a "rolling thunder" type system. Its physics. You will never get the feeling of being trackside while they go by in notch 8 in a smalllllllllllllllllllllllllllll speaker.
I don't mind "superior" products.................. If you want to call something superior then manufacturers better start cranking out "quality". There are expensive turds out there which there is no excuse for.
It was mentioned about new users, focus on quality, give us affordable choices. If I was a betting man, I would bet most people don't have a huge layout. I would bet a lot of folks belong to clubs and modular groups. You can do some amazing stuff without making every detail part a seperate piece. Some of us have no choice but to handle and move our equipment if we want to run it.
JEREMY CENTANNI What do I think will happen? DCC can go in the dumpster it belongs in. Was it nice for its time? Yes. Does it work now? Yes. Are there better alternatives now? Yes. Blurail type stuff will put DCC to the curb, it will take time, but everyone has a cell phone and the ability to download.................... You just eliminated a lot of $$$ on equipment that you need to buy right off the bat. Batteries???????????? hahahahahhahahahahhaahahha NO! Maybe one day, but not now and useless for anyone other than having one engine on a small layout. Yes they are eons better than 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago, but still not up to the task now in HO(I can't speak for larger scales but they have room for far greater battery capacity) Headphones? I don't think so. The best bet now and for the anywhere near term future would be some effects on the locomotive itself coupled with a "rolling thunder" type system. Its physics. You will never get the feeling of being trackside while they go by in notch 8 in a smalllllllllllllllllllllllllllll speaker. I don't mind "superior" products.................. If you want to call something superior then manufacturers better start cranking out "quality". There are expensive turds out there which there is no excuse for. It was mentioned about new users, focus on quality, give us affordable choices. If I was a betting man, I would bet most people don't have a huge layout. I would bet a lot of folks belong to clubs and modular groups. You can do some amazing stuff without making every detail part a seperate piece. Some of us have no choice but to handle and move our equipment if we want to run it.
Come to Maryland, how many basement sized layout would you like to see.......
You are welcome to belong to a club, we have some real nice ones here, but that is not for everyone.....
ROBERT PETRICK CNSF I found his ideas about printing instead of painting surfaces to be especially interesting - this could be the 'sleeper' among all his predictions. Read that section closely - the possibilities are tremendous, and apply to all types of modeling and craftwork. I've had this same idea, and I intend to use it on my current layout build. For pavement and pavement markings: railroad crossings, pedestrian crosswalks, no parking zones, handicap parking spaces, turn arrows, divider stripes, etc . . . not to mention the pavement surface itself. Print out full scale (full N scale, that is), attach with 3M spray mount adhesive, a little touch up, a little matte medium, then stand back and see what's what. Might work. I think it could be at least as good as painting, maybe a little better. I'll post results as they occur. Robert
I've used printed streets on my layout for around 10 years. Took images of streets, imported them into Microsoft Word, and cropped/resized the images as needed. Used Word Art to add street markings. I print the streets on high quality letter paper; this gives the streets some character that they wouldn't have if printed on cardstock.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL JEREMY CENTANNI What do I think will happen? DCC can go in the dumpster it belongs in. Was it nice for its time? Yes. Does it work now? Yes. Are there better alternatives now? Yes. Blurail type stuff will put DCC to the curb, it will take time, but everyone has a cell phone and the ability to download.................... You just eliminated a lot of $$$ on equipment that you need to buy right off the bat. Batteries???????????? hahahahahhahahahahhaahahha NO! Maybe one day, but not now and useless for anyone other than having one engine on a small layout. Yes they are eons better than 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago, but still not up to the task now in HO(I can't speak for larger scales but they have room for far greater battery capacity) Headphones? I don't think so. The best bet now and for the anywhere near term future would be some effects on the locomotive itself coupled with a "rolling thunder" type system. Its physics. You will never get the feeling of being trackside while they go by in notch 8 in a smalllllllllllllllllllllllllllll speaker. I don't mind "superior" products.................. If you want to call something superior then manufacturers better start cranking out "quality". There are expensive turds out there which there is no excuse for. It was mentioned about new users, focus on quality, give us affordable choices. If I was a betting man, I would bet most people don't have a huge layout. I would bet a lot of folks belong to clubs and modular groups. You can do some amazing stuff without making every detail part a seperate piece. Some of us have no choice but to handle and move our equipment if we want to run it. Come to Maryland, how many basement sized layout would you like to see....... You are welcome to belong to a club, we have some real nice ones here, but that is not for everyone..... Sheldon
You can show me as many basement size layouts as you want, but it is not, nor will it ever be the norm. Most folks do not have that much space to devote to model railroading.
Like I said, there are lots of folks who have small or no home layout, so it is a club or nothing.
Jeremy,
I don't know where you live, and there is no hard layout survey data to support my view or yours, but several simple facts to exist.
NMRA membership numbers suggest a much higher concentration of model railroaders in the Mid Atlantic and North East, followed third by the upper Mid West.
In all three of these regions the vast majority of single homes, and even most townhouses, come with basements. Basements that are generally equal in foot print to the house. As a construction and real estate professional I can tell you that half or less of these basements are fully finished living space - that fact does not stop them from being model railroad rooms either way.....
So it would seem, in the parts of the country with the most people, in the income level of housing owned by the people likely to afford this hobby, a great percentage likely have 500 to 1000 sq ft or more they can choose to devote to this hobby.
My own life long (I am 59, been active in the hobby since age 10) experiances here in the Mid Atlantic suggest that at least in the regions mentioned, 500 sq ft and larger layout spaces are actually rather common.
Your milage may vary in other regions...........