As others have said, "clean" track is a relative factor. Several things make a difference. The biggest is caused by DCC and amplified by sound programs shutting down. The fault is in the electric voltage level at the contact point between the wheels and the track rail. This combined with a current flow causes metals of different alloys to "fret" deposits on the other surface. Both surfaces are affected. These deposits are black in color and do not conduct electricity. Plastic wheels take the blame, but they are faultless because there is no current flow. at the track/wheel point, the voltage has not been rectified in DCC and is roughly 30 volts.
of course there are other kinds of "dirt". Air quality is the big factor here, which varies with every location.
These variations make the kind of test difficult to achieve meaningful results. The test is an endurance type. This requires some elapse time and some hopefully measurable level of surface deterioration. Difficult to adequately quantify. I have tried several times, but so far haven't succeeded.
I have tried and others swear by the use of a very light swipe of a 4B artist graphite stick on your track. It should be done on relatively "clean" track. Not perfectly clean. You may have to treat difficult sections more than once. But once the continuity has been established, people say it lasts for years. It is particularly a favorite of several guys who build layouts for the show circuit. My experience is great, but my time elapsed is limited. You do have to be a little careful. The graphite does reduce the friction coefficient, which impacts the tractive effort. Too much and it is noticeably reduced.
The benefits seem to be outstanding. Imagine not having to clean track or wheels for years, and never having a sound drop off or a loco stall when it shouldn't.
So many trains, so little time,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
Even though the article would be written without bias, I would think that the "winner" of the controlled test might be viewed as a product endorsement by all 'losers".
Its not that far removed from having an article that focuses on comparing various HO scale GP38-2s or Big Boys. One would seem to outshine the others.
I like MR the way it is now. Reviews of products are written one at a time with positives and weaknesses pointed out, but not lumped together to be viewed as a competition.
- Douglas
Seems to me the track-cleaning agonies revived around the time people started getting locomotives with noisemakers installed. Nothing gets your attention like "rumble-rumble-rumble-rumble-DEADSILENCESTARTUPSEQUENCErumble-rumble-rumble-rumble-rumble-rumble-rumble."
We use alcohol in a CMX tank car followed by cotton rollers and a Masonite slider. Very good at getting up all the graphite the electrical-contact wizards put down so carefully.
selectorHi, Ken! I have noticed you've posted a few times in recent days. It's very reassuring and heart-warming to know you are still kickin' and enjoying your train-time fun.
Crandell I am on the site everyday in the Dinners. Just not breaking as much stuff as I use to!
selectorI am about halfway through a build of a new layout. It's very slow going this time because of other demands on my time and because I no longer have the zip that I used to have.
Have you been posting any photos? Guess I need to go look.
So did the track seem to stay cleaner?
Stop by the dinner and I will buy you a . Lot of great folks there.
Your Friend Ken
I hate Rust
Paul3Brakie,I ran for 8 years on a layout built in 1953 that had all kinds of brass track, brass & sintered wheels. Cleaning track was a constant worry there, too. All new members were given a BriteBoy and told to start working. There was a lot of pushing engines around getting them to go (and using the Kadee wheel cleaner), and how we didn't like to run single engines because at least with two the other might give it a push to get it going. And on my old home layout (again with brass track), banging on the table to get the engine to move was pretty consistent. It had nothing to do with trackwork, and everything to go with dirt.
All the Columbus HO club used a Athearn dummy F7A with a bright boy attached to the fuel tank pushed by two Athearn/Hobbytown GP7s.. We cleaned the yard as needed with a bright boy.. Marion HO club still uses a Athearn dummy F7A with the same set up the Columbus club use. The Bucyrus club layout can set idle for weeks in a old block building that has gaps in the walls and along the bottom of the walls and nobody cleans track before they run a train.
I never worry about cleaning track because I clean it as needed and I haven't cleaned it since last November and still do slow speed switching every day and depending on my mood it can be with or without sound..
I must have been born under a lucky star or I choosed or tweaked my engines well because I never had to any table thumping or push a engine to get it started even on brass track.
As strange as it may sound I have had very little problems in the hobby and the majority of those problems was my fault. I could "kiss" couple with X2F couplers on my layout..My dad couldn't even do that! Even today my KD5s and 148s will kiss couple.
I haven't had a derailment on my ISL since it was built 4 years ago--that's because I will accept nothing less then 100% derailment free operation.
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hi, Ken! I have noticed you've posted a few times in recent days. It's very reassuring and heart-warming to know you are still kickin' and enjoying your train-time fun.
You have a good question there. I wasn't really performing a rigorous test of any kind, just a simple trial to see if my locos' motive power would change if I liberally covered the rail tops with ATF. I kept an ear for pauses, slippage, audio drop-out, and tagged my typical trailing car loads onto the locomotives to see what would happen. I didn't test locos with a before and after tractive effort test because I have no gauge as our hosts do.
I am about halfway through a build of a new layout. It's very slow going this time because of other demands on my time and because I no longer have the zip that I used to have.
What I propose is that our hosts pick two or three locomotives that are good and reliable performers known to them. They should first test their performance on dirty, untreated, rails, say on a stored layout of theirs that have some grades, or they could built a frame with a 3% grade and several parallel lengths of rail. They could pick the most common or popular methods for 'cleaning' the rails and test them again. Does their performance improve? Or, is it adversely affected?
Cover the apparatus (or leave part of it uncovered to test the effects of leaving rails in the open in their environment) for about a full year. Then, same locomotives, with no further treatment to the rails, test their tractive effort and reliable performance with DCC/sound. Any change to their performance?
Maybe there's a much simpler method. Perhaps, when thinking further, it just gets too complicated and unwieldy. I'm looking for discussion, for expressions of brilliance and creativity that are clearly not going to come from me.... But, it would really help to put much of this perennial topic to bed if we had a definitive article revealing a comparison between fuids (lacquer thinner, ATF, Wahl's, electrical contact cleaners, Mag Wheel cleaner), waxes, sand-paper, cleaning appliances, Magic Erasers, Brite-boys, wooden blocks, Scotch Brites, Gleaming,...
And I agree, most emphatically, with those just above who assert that the environment in which the layout sits is going to be a major factor. Does dust detract from the fluid films over time, or only the dry methods? Does high humidity increase the degradation after any one method is used?
What effect do the fluids have on traction tires? We know that they deteriorate while we look at them...they don't have to be covered in bad fluids. Wouldn't it be something if one or two of the fluids actually extend the lives of traction tires? Lacquer thinner, acetone, etc, if they get onto the tire surfaces, won't do any good. But ATF?
As others have said, every layout is different. Some are in attics, some in basements, some in bedrooms, some in warehouses...there is no "one-size fits all" track cleaning method. For my club's layout, our biggest problem is dust because it's a 6300 sq. ft. room with blown air HVAC, 8 ceiling fans, two dehumidifiers, and a lot of people in and out every week who stir it up (and people cause dust, too; dander, pollen from outside, etc.). As such, an oil-based track cleaner like clipper oil would be disasterours for us as the dust would stick to the oil, causing a crud build up that's very hard to remove. OTOH, someone in a relatively dust-free environment would be fine with it.
For the best write-up I've seen online about track cleaning, look here and go to pages 5-7: https://tonystrains.com/download/CMX-man-generic.pdf It's a chemist's view of track cleaning. It is also an ad for the CMX Clean Machine, but the info is still valuable.
Brakie,I ran for 8 years on a layout built in 1953 that had all kinds of brass track, brass & sintered wheels. Cleaning track was a constant worry there, too. All new members were given a BriteBoy and told to start working. There was a lot of pushing engines around getting them to go (and using the Kadee wheel cleaner), and how we didn't like to run single engines because at least with two the other might give it a push to get it going. And on my old home layout (again with brass track), banging on the table to get the engine to move was pretty consistent. It had nothing to do with trackwork, and everything to go with dirt.
BMMECNYC BRAKIE I still think there's far to much hand wringing over cleaning track. You have not seen hand wringing until you spend 3 days at a train show trying to keep a 42 x 72 U shaped layout running. Track has to be cleaned twice a day or you loose control of trains (intermittant loss of communication with command station, or loss of electrical power to the train entirely).
BRAKIE I still think there's far to much hand wringing over cleaning track.
You have not seen hand wringing until you spend 3 days at a train show trying to keep a 42 x 72 U shaped layout running. Track has to be cleaned twice a day or you loose control of trains (intermittant loss of communication with command station, or loss of electrical power to the train entirely).
Wild guessing here but,maybe you need tougher standards? I been hearing that DCC/plastic wheels doesn't play well together but,I have no proof one way or the other.
While its good PR to let train show attendees test the engine they are interested in buying on the layout I would suggest building a 3-4' test track for such test.
selectorI have conducted one trial. It was five years ago, about a month prior to tearing down the layout on which almost all of my photos had been taken. I had nothing to lose, and had just read a thread on this topic where Gleaming and Wahl's Clipper Oil were touted as reliable and effective methods. I had long since taken to using Dexron Mercon III auto-tranmission fluid as my exterior lube of choice on my steamers without ill effects of any kind. I figured...what the heck? So, I coated my entire main line, including its 3.6% grades, liberally with ATF. I let a BLI steamer run through it and spread it everywhere. Then I hooked up my typical trailing 'tonnage' and watched. It was as if I had done nothing. A couple of weeks later, there was no discernible difference in performance.
Crandell, good to see you post! When you said you saw no difference, did you mean pulling power or the rails staying clean?
Are still working on a new layout and post them in the layout section?
Sorry to hear your PCM Y6b decoder let the smoke out.
Steven Otte because according to half of the threads you refer to, Model Railroader is in the pocket of Big Track-Cleaning Car.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Steven Otte I thought we couldn't be trusted to do such a test, because according to half of the threads you refer to, Model Railroader is in the pocket of Big Track-Cleaning Car. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go spend this quarter's payoff to buy a Snickers bar.
I thought we couldn't be trusted to do such a test, because according to half of the threads you refer to, Model Railroader is in the pocket of Big Track-Cleaning Car. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go spend this quarter's payoff to buy a Snickers bar.
Steve, was your quoted reply above intended for me? If so, I deny it categorically. I have always been rather loyal and considerate of the tone and stances of your publication. I have never owned or made a rail cleaning product other than to use 600 grit paper and alcohol, and would not be able to argue ethically or persuasively that a commercial product was better than all others, or that you were in cahoots with one of them.
-Crandell
richhotrain BMMECNYC BRAKIE I still think there's far to much hand wringing over cleaning track. You have not seen hand wringing until you spend 3 days at a train show trying to keep a 42 x 72 U shaped layout running. Track has to be cleaned twice a day or you loose control of trains (intermittant loss of communication with command station, or loss of electrical power to the train entirely). What do they use at the train show to clean track twice a day? Rich
What do they use at the train show to clean track twice a day?
Rich
We use CMX cars, when we remember to bring them......
It also depends on the contaminant on the track, I occasionally give my track work a good going over with Peco's track cleaning block before the show. It usually lasts about a half a day before problems start. Could also be due to people going out and buying locomotives and putting them on the track.
Alton Junction
BRAKIEI still think there's far to much hand wringing over cleaning track.
dknelsonI would also say that these days we are trying to operate our trains, and in particular yard switchers, far slower than we used back in the day of brass rail and open frame motors. Sound and DCC CVs play a role in these slower speeds, and some layout owners who are really into prototype operating get testy if they don't see scale speeds being used. And slow speeds show dirty track way more quickly.
Dave,If I may? Slow speed switching isn't anything new it just became more popular. Many of us young bucks back in the day enjoyed slow speed switching and we used brass track and some engines had brass wheels. We used MRC Golden Power packs usually set on pulse power.
The size of the rail has doing to do with how dirty the track gets no more then slow speed switching shows dirty track..I know better since slow speed switching is mandatory on a 12' ISL and I haven't clean my track since last November and my three sound equipped locomotives hasn't gave me any issues so far-maybe I should knock on wood?
I guess I been lucky because I seldom had to touch a engine to get it moving even back in the day when I was using brass track.IMHO its all in track laying-sloppy track work with improper rail joints causes issues.
I do recall during a home layout tour seeing a guy hip bump his 4x8' layout to get a stalled train moving. It was hard holding my laughter..Not because of the stalled train but,because of the miniature earthquake from the hip bump.
I still think there's far to much hand wringing over cleaning track.
AHHHHHHH!!!
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Whatever we do, please let's not say anything about how expensive it is to clean track or Steve will move the thread to someplace I can't find ...
I do agree that frequent operation of a layout sure seems to help.
But in response to Brakie's ironic point above, it is also true that we started to notice dirty track (and wheels) on a friend's layout primarily after he got his first locomotive with sound. The sound had nothing to do with the dirt per se. Rather, we had all become almost literally unconscious of how much stalling of trains there had been and how many little shoves we were giving the equipment until he got that sound equipped engine. The sudden cessation of sound made every head in the room turn towards the "offending" locomotive. (Similarly the layout owner had become too casual about some of his wiring and track laying issues until he got that locomotive.)
I would also say that these days we are trying to operate our trains, and in particular yard switchers, far slower than we used back in the day of brass rail and open frame motors. Sound and DCC CVs play a role in these slower speeds, and some layout owners who are really into prototype operating get testy if they don't see scale speeds being used. And slow speeds show dirty track way more quickly.
Or, stated another way, it was very rare for an Athearn Hustler to get stalled by dirty track because it was rare for them to run at less than 140 scale mph.
And it might even be that our smaller size rail is playing a role - maybe the larger surface area and greater electrical contact of Code 100 combined with wider wheel treads made it seem like dirty track was less of an issue back then. But frankly, there were plenty of articles on dirty track and wheels back in the 1950s and 60s too.
If it seems that people are obsessing more about dirty track and wheels now than they used to, I think it is because we put up with more marginal operation years ago and hardly noticed it or felt we needed to address it. We used to touch our trains more back then -- and we weren't knocking off $20 worth of fine details when we did it either. But that gets us dangerously close to a discussion about expenses ....
Dave Nelson
Track cleaning is one of those things that works till it dosn't. I have a small section inside a tunnel that keeps giving me problems no mater how many times I clean it (I even built an access hole in the wall just for this reason). It should not be electrical as it works fine once cleaned. It was installed like everything else and I have bright boyed it, CMXed it, Centerlined it and John allened it but it keeps coming back.
Steve, If I may? A lot of this hand wringing and obsession with track cleaning has been caused by a lot of MR's columns like "Working on the railroad" of years pass plus several articles over the years concerning keeping track clean..
I found these articles funny as all get out because even with brass track and brass wheels on locomotives nobody was overly concern about cleaning track and should we need to clean track a Walthers bright boy would work on the areas we could reach or a John Allen style track cleaning car would suffice for the areas we could not reach.
Now with Nickel Silver wheels and track theres this hand wringing and obsession with keeping track clean.
Running cars with cleaning pads is problematic on the route of the LION. They will surely foul with the third rail.
OUCH
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I have the same thoughts as Larry, whats all the fuss? When I think there is a problem, I run two cars, one with alcohol, and one with a pad. A couple of times around, and it's done. I use NS track for main and siding, and switching and industrial area is old brass, because that's what I had when I built, and I occassionaly wipe the brass down with alcohol, as needed. No problems with slow switching.
Another point I agree on is location. Everybody has a different situation, and a different location, from spare rooms, basements, attics, garages, seperate buildings, some have a controlled climate, some don't. I think every model railroader knows when the track needs cleaning. And with so many methods, each to his own.
My layout is in a basement area, no direct heat vents on my side, but it works. My layout also sits all summer, most of fall and spring. Winter is my operating time, and from season to season, year to year, when I go down there, turn it on, it runs just as good as it did when I left it. The first trip around cleans out the cob webs that develop in my long hidden track area, it is funny to see the front of an SD45 or a C44-9W draped in cob webs.
Mike.
My You Tube
Do your own testing using several different methods on different sections of your layouts then report back.
Jim
Well, this is Model Railroadeer, and not Consumer Reports. Ask Consumer Reports to do a study on track cleaning methods.
But really, the bottom line here is a few of us should get together, set standards for the tests, run the tests with the various products that we use and the send the results to MR for publication.
It is nice to aks Steve & Co to do all the work, but they are publishers not scientists. It is our hobby, and it is our work to make things happen.
Now for those who are members of NMRA (and the LION is not--I suspect that they will allow felids to join, but not felids with no money to pay the membership) could ask about and see what the NMRA recommends, and perhaps the NMRA will sponsor such tests, although some one of us will still have to do the work.
ROAR
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Track cleaning has became a unnecessary obsession.Why all the hand wringing and worries?
A simple track cleaning car like John Allen made will do the job. Have a engine or two shove the car around the layout as needed. This method worked quite well on brass track and works better on nickel silver track.
MR would do well to run a article or video on making a John Allen track cleaning car.
BTW..I haven't clean my track since last November and I still have uninterrupted slow speed switching.
Once I switched from brass to nickel-silver back in the 1970's, I never used any sort of liquid track cleaner to clean track. I dry wiped it right after I laid it, then relied on a home-made Allen track cleaner reefer to keep the dust off. Trains always ran just fine. Once I start building my last layout, I'll do the same thing again.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I have found running your trains regularly helps keep the track clean. About every 5 or 6 months I clean the track with 90% isopropyl with a soft cotton cloth is all I need.
The environmental variances are a big factor in why there's no single best answer to a project like this. You'd simply find the best answer in one location, unless part of the research involved multiple locations that were fairly representative of the differing environmental circumstances.
Just my , but I've seen enough results that you should use any oil-type compound very sparingly and keep in mind unless the track was clean to begin with such applications tend to mobilize the gunk -- requiring you to clean the track anyway.
I use CRC 2-26 myself, very sparingly, and have good results here in the Midwest, albeit in a climate-controlled environment. I learned about it through a group of modelers from all over the world, who report generally good results with it. So it seems to work in a variety of environments and may be worth a try if you haven't yet, just be sure and apply it to generally clean track.
Also, keep in mind that cleaning track and treating it to better ensure conductivity while limiting dirt build-up tend to be two separate issues, when people are often looking for a single product that does both. My experience is that using an alcohol-based cleaner works well on track. I use acetone to get built-up grunge off wheels. And I then use CRC 2-26 to treat the track and limit dirt from building up.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I think there are too many different situations to be considered.
First, track is available in nickel silver, brass, and steel. Do the different metals need different solutions? These are all alloys, but is the same alloy mix used by all the manufacturers for each of these? Does it matter?
Second, what are the environmental conditions. Is humidity and/or temperature controlled. If so. at what level? If not, what are the extremes? Does it matter. What about things like dust levels, smoke chemicals, air freshners, etc.
Third, does scale make a difference?
Then there is the matter of what is clean? Bare metal? Coated with conductive film? Scratches acceptable? Mirror finish desired? etc.
Finally, there are many different methods and chemicals available, can they all be identified? who is going to test them all?
Paul