For those who wish to get into another discussion, I was at the club this past week and one individual stated that the cars on the narrow gage were not really HOn3 narrow gage, but just "narrow gage".
I said what do you mean. So he pointed to a bunch of cars, primarily Blackstone, and said that those cars were not protoype cars scaled down to HOn3, but were really cars somewhere between HO and N made to run on HOn3 track.
Then he pointed to another couple cars, probably Labelle, and said "see, those cars are bigger and are truly scaled down from the prototype.
So, what is the expert opinion???
He is nuts!
maxman So he pointed to a bunch of cars, primarily Blackstone, and said that those cars were not protoype cars scaled down to HOn3, but were really cars somewhere between HO and N made to run on HOn3 track.
Totally false.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
maxmanSo, what is the expert opinion???
Here's the expert opinion...
http://www.nmra.org/beginner/scales
Without seeing the particular cars he was referring to it's hard to say. HO and HOn3 are the SAME scale, so a door, an automobile or a human figure will be the exact same size. A ratio of 87.1 to 1 or 3.5 mm/foot. The only thing that would change is the distance between the rails.
From what I know about Blackstone Models, they are regarded as industry leaders in the narrow gauge field.
Try to sort out the G scale—gauge #1, 1:22.5 or 1:29 or 1:32 so and so! That really gets into some hairy discussions! It all runs on 45mm gauge track.
Regards, Ed
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
"He is nuts!
Ulrich"
Well, that part is not debateable
gmpullmanWithout seeing the particular cars he was referring to it's hard to say. HO and HOn3 are the SAME scale, so a door, an automobile or a human figure will be the exact same size. A ratio of 87.1 to 1 or 3.5 mm/foot. The only thing that would change is the distance between the rails.
I agree with this. Unfortunately when he pointed to the Blackstone boxcar and compared it to the similar kit-built boxcar, the kit-built was physically larger. So I wasn't able to come up with a reasonable reason why that might be.
Sometimes the East Broad Top would place narrow gauge trucks under a standard gauge car when time could be saved by not having to trans-load the freight.
http://www.totalracing.com/ebt/stdgauge.htm
I'll have to see if I can find photos of this. They had a large timber crane for lifting the car and swapping the trucks. A cast aluminum coupler adapter was used to make up the coupler height difference.
Mention of THAT would have made your expert red-faced!
I kind of did that with placing N-scale trucks under an HO boxcar. Looked wierd but did work on N-scale track.
Dennis
I'm looking at a copy of the ORER that shows various dimensions for D&RGW narrow gage freight cars. Since essentially all of the models Blackstone makes are from that road, I'll supply dimensions for the boxes and the reefers.
D&RGW 3000-3749 (698 cars July 1945) boxcar
Outside length--30 feet
Outside width at eaves or top of sides--8 feet 4 1/4 inches
Outside height to top of running board--10 feet 1 11/16 inches
Outside height to eaves or top of sides--9 feet 5 11/16 inches
Door opening width--5 feet
Door opening height--5 feet 8 1/2 inches
D&RGW 32-78 (37 cars July 1945) reefer
Outside width at eves--7 feet 7 7/8 inches
Outside height to top of running board--10 feet 2 inches
Outside height at eves--9 feet 6 3/4 inches
Door opening width--4 feet
Door opening height--5 feet 10 inches
Go measure the models and report back. I can look up other cars for the road, also. Should you supply the car numbers.
Looking at the LaBelle narrow gage listings, it is not at all clear what car their typical boxcar was modeled after. I see what looks to be the same model used repeatedly for various road names. Perhaps it is a faithful model of a somewhat larger narrow gage car that wasn't D&RGW.
If I were guessing (which I am, right now), I would suspect any dimensional errors would be with the LaBelle models. IF there are any. IF.
Say, would the guy making these claims just happen to BE THE ONE WHO OWNS the LaBelle cars? Just wondering.
Ed
Some of the "Gramps" cars on the DRGW had their trucks switched with standard gauge trucks to ship in oil from California, the trucks were switched back when they returned.
maxman "He is nuts! Ulrich" Well, that part is not debateable gmpullman Without seeing the particular cars he was referring to it's hard to say. HO and HOn3 are the SAME scale, so a door, an automobile or a human figure will be the exact same size. A ratio of 87.1 to 1 or 3.5 mm/foot. The only thing that would change is the distance between the rails. I agree with this. Unfortunately when he pointed to the Blackstone boxcar and compared it to the similar kit-built boxcar, the kit-built was physically larger. So I wasn't able to come up with a reasonable reason why that might be.
gmpullman Without seeing the particular cars he was referring to it's hard to say. HO and HOn3 are the SAME scale, so a door, an automobile or a human figure will be the exact same size. A ratio of 87.1 to 1 or 3.5 mm/foot. The only thing that would change is the distance between the rails.
Is every standard gauge box car exactly the same height and width? No. Same is true about the prototypes of narrow gauge equipment. Generally speaking, as mentioned above, the "loading gauge" (not a term widely used in North America), or plate clearances, or simply clearances (more common North American terms), of narrow gauge railroads are generally smaller than standard gauge railroads.
Typical car widths for 3' gauge are 8-9' rather than the 10' of standard gauge. While passenger doors, etc, would be standard sizes, overall car heights would be less than most standard gauge cars, but would vary just like standard gauge cars have varied in height over the years.
Comparing the Blackstone cars to some other narrow gauge cars requires knowledge of each prototype.
Now here is the most important difference. Because narrow gauge lines were generally "closed systems" with no interchange, each was built to its own standards and clearances based on the needs and desires of the builders, available resources, geographical restrictions, etc. So while one narrow guage line may be able to handle 9' wide cars, another may have stayed with 8'. And same would apply to max height. Max length would be controlled by curves, just like any railroad.
Obviously the individual in question is seriously mis informed.....
Sheldon
7j43k 7j43k wrote the following post 33 minutes ago: I'm looking at a copy of the ORER that shows various dimensions for D&RGW narrow gage freight cars. Since essentially all of the models Blackstone makes are from that road, I'll supply dimensions for the boxes and the reefers. D&RGW 3000-3749 (698 cars July 1945) boxcar Outside length--30 feet Outside width at eaves or top of sides--8 feet 4 1/4 inches Outside height to top of running board--10 feet 1 11/16 inches Outside height to eaves or top of sides--9 feet 5 11/16 inches Door opening width--5 feet Door opening height--5 feet 8 1/2 inches D&RGW 32-78 (37 cars July 1945) reefer Outside length--30 feet Outside width at eves--7 feet 7 7/8 inches Outside height to top of running board--10 feet 2 inches Outside height at eves--9 feet 6 3/4 inches Door opening width--4 feet Door opening height--5 feet 10 inches Go measure the models and report back.
Thanks for this info. I'll give this a try, but it will be next week before I get to the club again.
The subject of changing trucks ala East Broad Top was brought up, but none of the cars in question were large enough to be standard gage prototypes.
And no, none of the cars belonged to Mr. Fluffer-Nutter.
In the railroad industry, the "gauge" is the space between the rails. You don't stand on the track; you "stand in the gauge." The inside face of a rail is the "gauge face." "Narrow gauge" in the US is any gauge smaller than 56.5". A car whose trucks mount wheels spaced to run on rails 36" apart is ipso facto narrow gauge, no matter how wide the body (that's a matter of the "clearance plate").
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
The way I see it HO is a scale 1:87,n-3 is a gauge (36" in this case).From pictures I have seen narrow gauge cars came in all sorts of lengths and heights just like standard gauge.
If I'm not mistaken, I think D&RGW may have re-trucked some standard gauge gons or flats and used them on their narrow gauge operations with minimal modifications. Somebody like Mike Lehman can tell you whether I'm also nuts.
Maybe the use of N scale track for HOn30 has clouded your friend's thinking.
I have seen some compromises of this kind in the larger scales. I know there is a 7-1/2" gauge hopper car that is obviously patterned after an EBT car. It is scaled for 2-1/2" = 1' 0" scale, which is correct. For those operating standard gauge equipment on that same 7-1/2" gauge track, the scale would be approx. 1.5" or 1.6" = 1' 0". That EBT car is sold simply as a usable hopper for 7-1/2" gauge, and both narrow gaugers and standard gaugers use it, even though it's not really accurate for any standard gauge car.
In general, narrow gauge equipment was smaller than standard gauge equipment. A car that is some kind of cross between HO and N is probably an inaccurate model. Those exst, but I don't think you will find them in the Blackstone or LaBelle lines.
Tom
Here's what's going on. Blackstone cars have always been to scale. They match the drawings to scale.
LaBelle cars have been produced by several different owners over a number of decades. Each owner has revised and improved these kits, although probably the most effort has been be the current owner. The passenger cars are where this can be most easily seen. I'll try to pull up a direct comparison and add to this in a moment.
Yes, LaBelle kits have been oversize or disproportioned in several ways. You can improve this considerably with a little effort and care. They're the kind of old school kits where this is possible.
There were different size boxcars on the Rio Grande and other Colorado raods before the rebuilt 3000 series was left as the familiar ones that most think of, like the fellow who didn't quite get this right. I have some LaBelle Silverton Northern boxcars and Silverton, Gladstone & Northerly gons that are really pretty close. I haven't built the DRGW 3000 series car in LaBelle (have done plenty of RailLine ones, though, in plastic) so can't advise how close or far they are from right.
But they all should be considered HO scale as far as measuring goes, intended for ops on HOn3 gauge trucks.
OK, a basically unmodded build of a LaBelle combine kit (bought from consignment at Caboose Hobbies years ago) next to the stock Blackstone coach.
Next, a modded LaBelle build by me, next to the Blackstone. Keep in mind that most Rio Grande headend cars were slightly taller than coaches, in large part where RPO's were involved due to postal regulations.
In this pic, I added a fairly good layout level model of the Silverton RR combine Red Mountain I built from a Labelle coach kit.
This pic shows my SG&N gon in a string of DRGW gons. The LaBelle kit is pretty close to unmodded, but is longer and lower-sided than the Rio Grande's, just as it should be.
A side view of the SG&N gon where you can really see the different proportions.
Now, the SN boxcars, of which I was doubtful at first, but found a pretty good match to the drawings available 32' long. They also sit up on their trucks, good for 6" or taller ride height than the Rio Grande's rebuilt 3000 series.
Finally, I do recall specifically that the standard Rio Grande long caboose kits has been resized by LaBelle. As I said, I know they've been working to improve this veneable and still very useful and rewarding line of kits. Older kits you may come across may vary. But they are all HO scale, 3' gauge.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I will be polite, and simply say the guy in question is mis-informed about narrow gauge prototype and scale model equipment.
I can not give examples of 3 foot gauge equipment, but every time I go to Boothbay Railway Village, I am surrounded by vintage, prototype 2 foot gauge equipment. For instance this is Sandy River & Rangley Lakes RR 2 foot gauge boxcar 147 that is on dispaly and awaiting restoration:
These are HO scale models, one of them the exact car, in HOn30 which represents 2 foot gauge. Except for the trucks and couplers, the model's dimensons match the prototype car in 1/87 scale
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Maybe the guy is confused about which scale/gauges cheat a little.
One of the quick, easy, less expensive ways to model narrow gauge is to use HO standard gauge cars for Sn3 by swapping the trucks. This isn't exactly correct, but change the grab irons and ladders and you can get by. Or just do Sn42 using HO equipment - change some of the details, like larger locomotive cabs and smoke stacks and you can by for less money.
HOn30 started out using N scale trucks and locomotive mechanisms on N scale track.
You can go the other way too. Some S scalers use On30 cars (particularly passenger cars) for S standard gauge. Again you can change some of the details for a better impression. Or even regauge the locomotives to S standard, rebuild the cab, and change some of the detail parts.
Paul
Nope not nuts.
I bet nobody has considered TT scale. TT scale cars have sometimes been mistaken for HOn3. They are close but no cigar.
Here's a comparison of two HOn3 steamers to a TT scale SW1200.
Here's a comparison between HO standard gauge and TT scale standard gauge.
I'll have to dig out some of my TT scale boxcars and HOn3 and take some pictures for better comparison.
Bernd
New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds
protolancer(at)kingstonemodelworks(dot)com
I should have re-phrased my answer - he is not nuts, but one of the many know-it-alls, who are just plain wrong.
BerndI bet nobody has considered TT scale.
That´s not what was asked for.
Something I find interesting is that if you build and HOn3 or On3 layout, your layout is more correctly in scale than if you build an HO or O standard gauge layout, since both HO and O standard gauge trains are built to a slightly incorrect linear scale.
Real standard gauge is 56.6" wide. O gauge track is 1.25" gauge. If you divide 56.5 by 1.25, you get 45.2 - so O 'scale' is 1:45.2 scale, or "17/64ths scale". No one really liked that, so in America, we used a linear scale of 1/4" = 1 foot, or 1:48 scale. So US O scale standard gauge trains are slightly undersized. In Europe, where they were more familiar with metric measurements, they went to 7mm = 1 foot, or 1:43.55 scale. (That's why so many European made "O scale" model automobiles are 1:43 scale.) So their "O scale" trains are slightly oversized.
When 5/8" gauge trains started, that gauge was half of O scale..."Half O" or "HO". If you divide 56.5" real standard gauge by HO's 5/8" gauge (.625") you get a ratio of 1:90.4 - exactly half of correct O scale. However, since HO started in Europe, they built the trains to 1/2 of 7mm / 1:43.55 scale: 3.5mm = 1 foot, or 1:87.1 scale.
But, if you build a US O scale 3' gauge layout, it uses a gauge of 3/4", based on 1/4" = 1 foot times 3 equals 3/4" gauge. That means 1:48 On3 trains are exactly correctly proportioned, while their standard gauge 1:48 counterparts are not. Same works for HO, since you start with 3.5mm per foot linear scale, and determine what 3' gauge is from that.
It would work for On30 or HOn30, provided you were actually modelling a 30" gauge prototype, and not 2' or 3' gauge trains adjusted to fit 30" gauge track.
Some folks have a tendency to make things as complicated as possible and you seem to belong to that group.
The OP had a question regarding Blackstone HOn3 products being to scale or being out of scale, narrowed down products. It escapes my understanding why you put TT scale "on the table" in this discussion.
wjstixWhen 5/8" gauge trains started, that gauge was half of O scale..."Half O" or "HO". If you divide 56.5" real standard gauge by HO's 5/8" gauge (.625") you get a ratio of 1:90.4 - exactly half of correct O scale. However, since HO started in Europe, they built the trains to 1/2 of 7mm / 1:43.55 scale: 3.5mm = 1 foot, or 1:87.1 scale.
Actually, HO's gauge is .649 inches.
See the NMRA standards page here.
You seem to imply that because the gauge is slightly out of scale that the rest of the dimensions of "the trains" are off as well. This is not the case (at least on the stuff I've measured).
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
The posts about bogie changes is interesting as here in Australia I know of one train that changed bogies at the border to another state... One state was standard(4ft8 1/2in) gauge and the other was narrow(3ft6in) gauge...
I also remember something about the Orient express needing to do the same at one stage...
Anyway, some people just dont understand that some railroads running different size equipment and as such rail world wide is really an individual thing just like model rails...
Lets not get too standardized, it would boring seeing layouts and equipment all looking the same...
carl425 wjstix When 5/8" gauge trains started, that gauge was half of O scale..."Half O" or "HO". If you divide 56.5" real standard gauge by HO's 5/8" gauge (.625") you get a ratio of 1:90.4 - exactly half of correct O scale. However, since HO started in Europe, they built the trains to 1/2 of 7mm / 1:43.55 scale: 3.5mm = 1 foot, or 1:87.1 scale. You seem to imply that because the gauge is slightly out of scale that the rest of the dimensions of "the trains" are off as well. This is not the case (at least on the stuff I've measured).
wjstix When 5/8" gauge trains started, that gauge was half of O scale..."Half O" or "HO". If you divide 56.5" real standard gauge by HO's 5/8" gauge (.625") you get a ratio of 1:90.4 - exactly half of correct O scale. However, since HO started in Europe, they built the trains to 1/2 of 7mm / 1:43.55 scale: 3.5mm = 1 foot, or 1:87.1 scale.
Sir Madog Some folks have a tendency to make things as complicated as possible and you seem to belong to that group. The OP had a question regarding Blackstone HOn3 products being to scale or being out of scale, narrowed down products. It escapes my understanding why you put TT scale "on the table" in this discussion.
Well, you've been around these forums to know how things roll. Should you be surprised? I'm not, but you can certainly try to reason with a post sometimes but not sure if it's ever going to bear fruit.
So to the OP, was this just another "know-it-all" who was actually sounding knowledgable (as people sometimes do) but was really full of it? What is the truth here when it's all shaken down and pressed over?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
wjstix:
Yes, traditional American O and HO gauges are close, but not quite 100% correct. Most of us can't tell the difference at normal viewing distance. For those who can tell, and for whom this is an important issue, there are Proto 48 and Protpo 87. I'm not aware of any regular contributors to the forum who model these gauges. For those who do, you have my admiration. But I'm too heavily invested in the tradfitional stuff to change at this point.
riogrande5761So to the OP, was this just another "know-it-all" who was actually sounding knowledgable (as people sometimes do) but was really full of it? What is the truth here when it's all shaken down and pressed over?
Okay, guys, the question was not about TT gage, standard gage on HOn3 trucks, the fact that large and small objects in the prototype will have the same size relationship if they are both reduced to the same scale, loading gage, or anything else.
The other individual involved had been in discussion with a third party who did HOn3 and had derived from that discussion that the Labelle kits were "true" narrow gage, and that the Blackstone models of similar cars had HOn3 trucks but bodies that were not true to scale but were somewhere between HO and N.
Visually, as he pointed out to me in my discussion with him, the Labelle cars had more bulk, heft, were larger, or however else one could describe the size difference.
7j43k, above, has given me some dimensions to which I can compare the Blackstone models. That information should be adequate to end the discussion.
Thanks
maxmanthe Blackstone models of similar cars had HOn3 trucks but bodies that were not true to scale but were somewhere between HO and N.
There are numerous reviews (print and on-line) indicating that the Blackstone cars are exactly correct in dimension. Here are the first-page google results.http://hon3annual.com/blackstone-rio-grande-refrigerator/http://hon3annual.com/blackstone-models-utlx-tank-cars/http://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/staff-reviews/2007/06/blackstone-models-hon3-k-27-2-8-2