cuyamaThat certainly wasn't directed at you, sorry it came across that way. I was talking about people pontificating to newcomers like yourself. [So maybe I was putting myself in my place .... ?]
[So maybe I was putting myself in my place .... ?]
Thanks.
And I mean, you are absolutely right in what you wrote. Especially for newcomers like myself, I feel I have been (mis)directed by opinions I read, or viewed on YouTube, that totally distorted my perspective.
Instead of focusing on running trains and enjoying the hobby in general, I'm obsessing whether to use Code 100 or Code 83 rail and what manufacturer at that; or whether rail spikes are too big and not prototypical.
Being overwhelmed, part of me just wants to go do something else and not bother at all.
YouTube Channel
Website
Is part of the problem of the information age. Don't get discouraged and don't give up. Are you planning on showing your layout to a bunch of nit-pickers with no manners? I didn't think so. I assure you that it isn't going to ruin your hobby experience if for example you choose code 100 rail over code 83. Instead of worrying about which type others like best (something that there is virtually never anything close to a consensus) get what looks good to you, is reasonably available, and fits your budget. You may be amazed how enjoyable code 100 rail and "not accurately proportioned" locomotives can be. Perfection can come later if at all.
Mike
Water Level Route Is part of the problem of the information age. Don't get discouraged and don't give up. Are you planning on showing your layout to a bunch of nit-pickers with no manners? I didn't think so. I assure you that it isn't going to ruin your hobby experience if for example you choose code 100 rail over code 83. Instead of worrying about which type others like best (something that there is virtually never anything close to a consensus) get what looks good to you, is reasonably available, and fits your budget. You may be amazed how enjoyable code 100 rail and "not accurately proportioned" locomotives can be. Perfection can come later if at all.
If I was doing modern, I would stick to N scale. Your space is small for the size of modern equipment to get the right look and feel. Also alot of the details that make old equipment stand out (like what I model in the late 1930's) is missing or dose not proturd as much on modern stuff, doors don't stick out as much, roofwalks are gone for the most part etc.
In another LHS, someone told me that if I go H0, I'll realize pretty soon that I've ran out of space. My space is 23' x 12', is that really not much for H0?
The original idea was to freestyle our layout and not be fixed in the transition era, but also have some modern equipment. Now, I'm not too sure about anything...
TrainzLuvrInstead of focusing on running trains and enjoying the hobby in general, I'm obsessing whether to use Code 100 or Code 83 rail and what manufacturer at that; or whether rail spikes are too big and not prototypical.
One should consider what rail size,track and switches to use as well as era but,never to the point of being obsess.
To tell you true I never worry about that because either code 83 or code 100 works quite well for me. Spikes? I favor large spikes because they hold the track better.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cuyama I think that it's helpful to recognize that many, many people who talk about HO vs. N (and the hobby in general) on forums have themselves never completed a layout in any scale. Many of today's active N scale modelers built one or more HO scale model railroads first before switching, so they know the strengths and weaknesses of each. The inverse is not true. HO scale is fine. N scale is fine. I personally think folks should make their decisions for themsleves and not be swayed by the gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch.
I think that it's helpful to recognize that many, many people who talk about HO vs. N (and the hobby in general) on forums have themselves never completed a layout in any scale. Many of today's active N scale modelers built one or more HO scale model railroads first before switching, so they know the strengths and weaknesses of each. The inverse is not true.
HO scale is fine. N scale is fine. I personally think folks should make their decisions for themsleves and not be swayed by the gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch.
cuyama TrainzLuvr Why, thank you, for putting me in my place...
TrainzLuvr Why, thank you, for putting me in my place...
"Gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch"? Byron, the gentleman is "seeking advice on on modern Ho equipment and layouts". It seems to me that everyone who is replying is merely trying to offer sincere advice based upon their own experience with various scales.
Rich.
Alton Junction
TrainzLuvrIn another LHS, someone told me that if I go H0, I'll realize pretty soon that I've ran out of space. My space is 23' x 12', is that really not much for H0?
Many fine layouts have been built in that space or less in HO or N. If you want modern era (which generally means longer cars and locos) and long trains, N scale would allow more to fit, of course. An HO layout in that space could work; you’ll just be limited to fewer and relatively shorter elements (yards, industries, passing sidings, etc.)
... and you could always start with a smaller layout (in either scale) that you view as a "chainsaw" layout, a term Dave Clemens coined to describe something that you don't expect to be the ultimate layout, but is instead a test bed to try things out and grow your skills. And then later that can be disassembled after you start the next layout elsewhere in the space. Structures, benchwork framing, turnouts, even flextrack can be re-used.
I hope that you won’t let the “noise” keep you from getting started and having fun. Many of the things that long-time forum denizens and self-proclaimed gurus rave on about are often unimportant to modelers’ actual enjoyment.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
richhotrainGeez, well then, who were you directing those comments at? It seems like a harsh indictment of everyone who has replied to this thread. As I read back through all of the replies, I don't see anyone pontificating (defined as expressing one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic).
Simple -- the many people (not all here) encouraging him to worry about insignificant minutia.
Edit: As he said himself:
TrainzLuvrAnd I mean, you are absolutely right in what you wrote. Especially for newcomers like myself, I feel I have been (mis)directed by opinions I read, or viewed on YouTube, that totally distorted my perspective.
To me, pontificating implies speaking from a place of self-importance and hearsay rather than experience. Perhaps I chose that one word poorly.
"Indictment of everyone on this thread"? Not at all ... but apparently there will always be those who take offense.
I don't see kaffeeklatsch, virtually gab-filled or not, as a bad thing. The idea is to bat around ideas, no matter how crazy they might seem. The good stuff eventually rises to the top, and the rest falls by the wayside. I'm sure there was a time when a bunch of cavemen sat around and one said, "I think I'm gonna eat one of those oysters." No idea what the others thought, but I'm sure it involved lots of guffawing.
Pontiff Third Class Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Ironically, I already own some H0 equipment because I dived into it on an impulse half a year ago as I thought the stars have finally aligned. Like someone said elsewhere, they were emotional purchases. Today, I have doubts H0 was a right choice, even though I (thought I) prefer the H0 size and detail.
I did contemplate a "chainsaw" layout, although the size of my space will not be changing in the future, so might as well build to fit then. But what?
N scale is like the other side of the Force, tempting and luring me towards it. More track, longer trains, more scenery...yet is it the right choice (for me)?
I really appreciate all the feedback everyone had posted so far, and I feel guilty that I seem to have hijacked the thread from the OP. My hope is that those in the future seeking answer to their dilemma will find our continuing deliberations useful.
As for me, I am my worst enemy...
TrainzLuvrN scale is like the other side of the Force, tempting and luring me toward it. More track, longer trains, more scenery...yet is it the right choice (for me)?
That is a question only the modeler can answer. My love for ISL really leans toward N Scale since a 1' x 12' can yield a excellent ISL with lots of room. OTOH a HO ISL on the same board yields three background industries and a transload track without overcrowding-that's my current ISL design.
I have a suggestion. If you don't have a copy of Track Planning For Realistic Operation by Armstrong, get it.
https://www.amazon.com/Track-Planning-Realistic-Operation-Railroader/dp/0890242275
or you can buy it direct from our hosts.
Purchase a subscription to Model Railroader, if you don't already have one. That gives you access to the hundreds, if not thousands of trackplans published in Model Railroader and other Kalmbach publications. Download them all or just those that interest you.
Study them. There is a wealth of information in there if you just look at them after diving into Track Planning For Realistic Operation. You will gain a good insight into what track planners and accomplished modellers consider good layouts.
Then decide on scale and start planning your layout. You will be in a better position to make the right decisions.
CG
An around the room layout depicting a local short line might be the ticket; have fun!
Dannyboy6 An around the room layout depicting a local short line might be the ticket; have fun!
And the upside modeling a short line is its less expensive since one or two locomotives is needed and for long term rotation 80-100 cars at most since you're dealing with a short train.
richhotrain It seems to me that everyone who is replying is merely trying to offer sincere advice based upon their own experience with various scales.
Rich,The reason I know what a 3' section of track holds that's the way I measure the needed track so,to have headroom for 7 cars and (say) a GP38-2 I need at least 6'.
OTOH if I need headroom for a SW1500 and 4 cars a piece of flex track and a 9" straight will give me that room. I call that my no frills measurements which is goof proof since I measure it with models I will be using.. Such "real time" measurements is needed when one builds small HO ISLs.
I already own John Armstrong's Track Planning book, and after reading it I grasp most of the concepts, but it's not giving me that "a-ha" moment. I'm struggling with practical implementations of what he is writing about. I'll start another thread with questions, in the Layout section though.
Right now, I do not even know whether I should be selling whatever H0 equipment I got and going into N, or not.
Go over to the Dark Side I think its more fun. I think Luke should have.
Anyway I agree that modern pikes are probably better left to N scale if you want to use six axle locos and modern cars passenger intermodal and auto racks.
Joe Staten Island West
Can't decide why not go both ways HO and N.
Russell
I didn't say N was the "dark" side, I referred to it as the "other" side. Just so that no one gets offended.
How would one incorporate both H0 and N into the same layout, one is half the size of the other?
Then again, if I make a two level layout, they could live together in harmony and not interfere with each other.
cuyamaI personally think folks should make their decisions for themsleves and not be swayed by the gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch.
I guess that was partially aimed at me. FWIW, I freely indicated that I don't have a layout yet. I felt I had something to offer because my layout space will be similar in size to the OP's.
I have spent a lot of time revising my layout plan. The first renditions were poorly designed to say the least. I have learned tons on the forums, and 'Track Planning for Realistic Operation' really helped me develop a plan that actually worked for my purposes.
For the benefit of the OP, here is my plan:
- Blue is the main line.
- Dark brown is the passenger station track.
- Green is the arrival/departure track.
- Pink is the yard lead.
- Red is either the caboose track or the RIP (programming) track.
- Grey is the secondary track including the yard tracks, industrial spurs and the leads to the helices.
- Light brown is the HOn30 mine track.
North and East walls are solid. South and West sides are open. There will be a removable backdrop.
Reach in to the track is approaching 30" in a couple of spots but there are no turnouts in those areas. Layout height will be 48". I'm 6' 2" so the longer reaches will be manageable but not ideal. Scenes close to the outer walls will be built off the layout and made to be removeable.
Layout space is 23.5' x 12'. Minimum curve is 26.5". Maximum grade is 2.5%. Helices are 2% with a 30" radius.
Staging has six fairly long tracks as well as a run around and a reverse loop.
No doubt there are some problems still. I have an 'S' curve where the main line switches to the east end of the arrival track. I haven't figured out how to fix that yet, other than with slow speeds.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Here is what my basement area looks like, and its dimensions.
Kind of irregular as I need to keep the access to the electrical cabinet in the upper right, and then below the pillars is the hallway that I can't block either, or the door to the room on the left.
hon30critterI guess that was partially aimed at me.
Nope.
TrainzLuvroffended. How would one incorporate both H0 and N into the same layout
TrainzLuvr:
I think you have a pretty decent space, but that electrical panel will be a bit of a PITA. Have you researched the regulations regarding panel accessibility? You could do a duck under or a lift out section but I think either of those options would create major problems if you were trying to get to the panel in the dark. They're probably not legal either.
The easiest solution would be to leave an aisle on the right side of the room so you can walk right up to the panel. Unfortunately that will take a couple of feet or more off of your available space.
At least you are in a basement! I'm stuck in my garage unless I win the lottery.
Have fun!
Hmmm..
So, my electrical cabinet is behind a real door in an alcove. That door has to swing open thus there's about 3 feet. It does not say anything about getting TO the panel at all.
According to your drawing you have to have 3' x 30" in front of the panel but the aisle leading to that space doesn't have to be 3' wide. You could go down to 28" - 30" and still have enough room to work comfortably on the layout. Every inch counts.
I'm still not seeing the room image, even with different browsers. Dave, what browser are you using?
cuyamaI'm still not seeing the room image, even with different browsers. Dave, what browser are you using?
Maybe it was my server configuration, please try again?
TrainzLuvrMaybe it was my server configuration, please try again?
Still not working for me. It's blank on the forum page. When I go to the image link directly I just see a mostly black page with a PayPal donate button in the center (where the image would be) and the image URL in text below.
Maybe just something at my end. I'll send you a message via the forum with my email address, perhaps you can email the image.