I am attempting to get the interior contours of several HO scale celestory coaches so I can build bulkheads and interiors. Since these are older kits, the interior ceiling curves seem more designed for molding purposes than ease of installing detailing (no surprize there). I'd like to have a nice snug fit for the bulkheads, but so far my trial and error method of making templates out of index card has been more error than not - I just cannot get real good measurements of the interior roof/ceiling curves.I do have a contour gauge from Glorious Harbor Freight, and while it's actually a fairly decent gauge, its designed for 1:1 contour measurement of molding and trim rather than 87-sized measurements - the 'tines' are not fine enough to capture the curve (at least it's non-scratching the model plastic). I even tried play-doh to mold-capture the curve, with no success.This is definitely becoming one of those "it looks so simple, how can it be such a pain" projects, so my question is does anyone have good techniques in capturing interior model contours? As an aside, seems like Micromark is discontinuing their metal contour gauges - odd, but maybe they were not big sellers.
I have a solution, but it involves some sacrifice. Do you have a car you can spare? Cut it in half, then trace the shape onto your bulkhead material. I'm thinking that's probably not the way you want to go, so.
The more tedious method would be to take lots of measurements. Start with the inside corners where the walls first meet the roof. Then measure to the inside corners where the clerestory roof meets the sides of the clerestory. Then measure the bottom of the clerestory where it meets the rest of the roof, finally, measure the inside peak of the clerestory. Plot all of these measurements on some reasonably sturdy plastic sheet - .030" or so. Make a couple of these blanks, then carefully sand until you get a snug fit. Once you have one, you can copy it, and hope the interiors of the cars are molded uniformly enough that they all fit well. It will be tedious, but that's probably going to be the best way to do it, unless you want to sacrifice a car.
Eric
Take a wad of modelling clay and press it up into the car's interior. This will give you a perfect "positive" imprint of the contours.Either measure from this, or carefully slice it so you can trace the contour.You mentioned trying Pla-Doh. It it's fresh, it won't be stiff enough to retain the information you're trying to capture. You could try again with Pla-Doh again, but refrigerate the car to stiffen it before pulling it out. Might work, if not, get better modelling clay.
Good luck!
Steve Hunter
Thanks Eric, but I cannot spare a model to cross-section (I did think of that, but discarded that idea).
I have been getting spot measurements of various interior points using digital calipers - this is how I created the basic outline for the test templates), but the interior has some odd compound curves which don't map out smoothly even with a french curve. Also, determining depth of various points is proving to be a PITA in several cases (for no real reason except they are awkward to measure), Possibly because my measuring instruments aren't so hot...I can come (somewhat) close, but there are still gaps which will let light leak thru the bulkhead, not a good look.
Would pressing in heavy duty aluminum foil (perhaps doubled over to give it even more stiffness) and carefully pulling it out give you a usable outline that you could trace?
Dave Nelson
Chutton01,
I don't know what Your contour gauge looks like, but I have one from Yrs. ago, when I was heavy into wood ship building. It was 8 inches long and could measure up to 3 1/2 inch thick. You then draw out the contour on a 1/4'' thick sheet of Balsa wood. Then measure the thickness of the plastic that the model is made from. 1/16 or what ever. You then draw that line in the inside of the contour line. You then cut out the piece on the contour line. You then sand around the piece with about 180 grit sand paper close to your thickness line....test fitting as You go, till You are satified with the fit. Now You have a template. Be Patient, with the sanding...it works! Used that way many times. I have gotten in the past, bags of Balsa wood that come in a bag with all kinds of sizes, square, flat, triangular in all thickness for pennies. You may find them at a Craft store or if You want just buy a sheet, 1/4 thick. All kinds of use's for the cheap Balsa, especially if You air-brush a lot. I use the square pieces and shape to fit inside standing up, models I need to paint. I glue a piece to the bottom of the balsa and instant stand, that is reuseble.
Try what I suggested...has always worked for Me!
Good Luck!
Frank
Dumb idea. Is not necessary. LION would just use a snip of cardboard for the partition (a bulkhead is a structural bearing peice... such as the ends of the car) Who is going to look into the car to see if it fills out the clerstory.
OK, you *want* it to do that. LION would make the partition of of air drying modeling clay, maybe just the clerestory part of the car leaving you with a simple square to model. You can press the clay into the recesses of the clerestory then use a square knife to slice it down until is nice and thin and flat.
There *is* more than one way to skin the cat, but do not telll that to the cat.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Thanks for the responses so far. Seems like while play-doh is a non-starter, modeling clay would work better on getting the contours. Hmm, that idea is looking better and better...For the record:A) The bulkheads in question will be .040 plain styrene, I already have the plastic corridor doors for them. Might even put some trim and rivet detail on the more visible parts.B) The Harbor Freight contour gauge looks like this (slightly different model). It's not bad for full-scale wood work, but for fine-detailed scale work, alas not so much.C) And as for Brother Elias, I simply offer this dialog from MST3K - E111:
Woman: “There's more than one way to skin a cat." Servo: “Everyone says that, but no one ever tells me the other ways!"
You mention older kits, so I'm guessing Athearn. The best, and easiest solution, as mentioned, is to cut the car and trace the contours - these cars are cheap and readily available on the used market. I use them to make wooden baggage cars and am hacking them up all the time to make shorter cars. I can make you a tracing next time I do one and send it to you. Send me a PM if that sounds reasonable.I don't use lighting in my passenger cars (or anything else on the layout) so I did the partitions (Athearn or, in the example below, Rivarossi) by trial and error:
...and an MDC Palace car:
This is a shortened Athearn observation car. With no lighting, a pretty simple interior, which, on-layout, shows a corridor on one side and darkened compartments on the other:
The Rivarossi diner was equally easy, with tables and banquette-type seating made from sheet styrene. The menu is rather limited, though, as the kitchen contains only a couple of 2.5oz. weights:
If you're building the partitions in the car's body, you could make them "close enough", then add flexible strips of .020"x.020" styrene (or whatever size is needed) to close the gaps at the underside of the roof, cementing it on one or both sides of the gaps, like a piece of trim.
If you're building the partitions on the floor of the car, it may be more effective to put a ceiling in the carbody, but run it from the tops of the inside of the lower roof portion, eliminating the clerestory from the inside of the car - it wouldn't likely be visible anyway, even with the car lit. You'd still need to determine the curves of the lower roof/ceiling, but at least the clerestory would be taken out of the equation.I am wondering, though, how you'll deal with light leakage where the partitions meet the inside of the cars' exterior. The window strips would all need to be cut at each partition, as I'd guess that the "glass" would, to some extent, transmit light. Another problem, if these actually are Athearn cars, is the thickness of the cast plastic windows. They certainly afford a view into a lit car, but I can't see that they would show much detail beyond the seats and passengers. Window shades and/or curtains are another issue with passenger cars that complicate interior detailing and lighting, as the cars are usually much narrower inside than would be a scaled-down version of the real ones. This is due to the thickness of the carsides and the thickness of the "glass", and is often also compromised by the need to make the inside of the car accessible.I admire anyone's attempts to do this kind of detail work, so please don't interpret my concerns as an attempt to discourage your efforts.
Wayne
Doctor Wayne, some interesting suggestions in your post.As you surmised, two of the kits are indeed Athearn heavyweight clerestory roof coaches (the other is a Concor round-roof coach, and there's a streamliner coach) - this is basically going to be a tourist train to give me an excuse to run heavyweight coaches, an RS-3 or even a Bachmann consolidation on a contemporary era module. I am wondering if the ceiling idea might work: the Athearn molded dutch doors are in place, so you can only see the bulkheads thru the open end "gangway" door (wire mesh to form a gate here), or thru the rather small interior windows.Inside the coaches will be rows of plain seats and good ol' eBay 1:100 scale people (repainted in muted colors), so a ceiling to bury the lighting LEDs in the clerestory might work (the little 'windows' in the clerestory are solid filled anyway, so no light leakage there). I'll check when I get home - If I can't really see the top of the bulkhead above the gangway door, then a ceiling would be the way to go.For the record, only the streamliner would get a more involved interior (basically longue chairs, the snack bar, and perhaps a performance area for a music trio), but that's not a big deal. These are not contest quality anyway...
Why not cut the bulkhead close to perfect to match the roof, then glue a small piece of foam to the top of it. The foam would seal off the roof and be almost imposible to see.
combine some suggestions
use aluminum and clay/play-do to avoid any stickiness
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Magic.
'Formosa Replicado' should do the job; just remember, 'Swish, and Flick'...
chutton01 I can come (somewhat) close, but there are still gaps which will let light leak thru the bulkhead, not a good look.
I can come (somewhat) close, but there are still gaps which will let light leak thru the bulkhead, not a good look.
ndbprrI would put masking tape over window openings on the inside of the car then fill the area with soupy plaster. When hard it should come out fairly easily. Mark the areas for bulkheads with a pencil before removing the vasting and section the casting with a razor saw at those points. It should be easy to trace the profiles on the bulkhead material.
Or a heay sheet of plastic (Saran Wrap) inside with plaster, or even parafin wax? If you used the Play Dough as a dam on either end you could probably get a fairly thin section you could sand flat when you pull it and use to mark your styrene?
chutton01:
Have you considered Frank's suggestion of copying the profile of the outside of the car and then reducing it by the thickness of the shell? Sounds fairly simple to me unless the roof/shell thickness isn't consistent. I would do it with the window glazing removed at first so you can match the inside roof profile, and then remove whatever bits of the partitions are necessary so they will fit around the glazing.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Thanks all for the suggestions.
In the event, after reading the above posts, I realized I could create the final template by parts (no, I don't know why it took so long), so by trial and error using card to get the clerestory profile (this wasn't that hard - the profile is mostly a rectangle with a curved top), then futzing around to get the complex curves of the interior roof to side wall shoulders (really only 3 short curves, so in retrospect not that super complex, but they don't follow the outside roof line closely so that suggestion would not have worked). Put the two pieces together, made a master template, and finally cut out the styrene bulkheads - as simple as stealing lightning from a baby. I always figured I'd need to trim out the bulkheads with strip, as even with the straightest ruler and a new xacto blade and slow, steady cutting motion, something always gets blipped.The molding clay idea, I will keep that in mind for the future, as some project or another eventually will require taking complex interior contours. As for those who suggested hacking apart a different model, shame on you.
chutton01...As for those who suggested hacking apart a different model, shame on you. Stick out tongue
Hey! When you hack apart a car, you never know what kind of other car might be inside.
I found this one inside an Athearn coach:
...and a couple of these inside Athearn Pullmans:
Another Athearn Pullman, although I don't think that it was hacked apart, as that's required only if I'm building a shorter car. I did remove the sides, though, and got rid of the floor:
I came across this combine when I sliced apart a Rivarossi diner to shorten it:
...and, while this Rivarossi combine wasn't deliberately shortened, it is 2 razor saw-blade kerfs shorter than it was originally, as I had to cut it into three parts to get the baggage door where I wanted it. I also cut some extra doors and windows into it, and replaced the front end of the floor/underframe with the frame and truck from a Blue Box F7...
...and, lest you get the impression that I just indiscriminately hack apart perfectly good models looking for something else, here's an Athearn observation car, shortened slightly but still recognisable, in its new role as a business car:
AAAAHHHH! The joys of hacking & bashing, Eh? Wayne.....No need to bother anyone with My hacking, bashing model trucks.....Most You guy's like Railroad stuffff!
Take Care!
Nice cars Wayne!
Obviously you just have to know where to look.
zstripe...No need to bother anyone with My hacking, bashing model trucks.....
I doubt that I'm the only one who wouldn't mind seeing a few, Frank.
Thanks for your kind words, Dave.
hon30critterObviously you just have to know where to look.
I dunno: I hacked quite a few of 'em, and they all seem to be like Kinder Eggs: a surprise in every one!
Wayne:
doctorwayneI hacked quite a few of 'em, and they all seem to be like Kinder Eggs: a surprise in every one!
I highly doubt that you were suprised at the outcomes! Besides, I have never, ever seen a kid put a chocolate Kinder Egg shell back together!
Cheers!