BRAKIE Imagination what a fun word..We use more then the majority may realize. Examples would be like how we deliver a boxcar full of freight to a industry just like the prototype.Our passenger trains speeds along hauling passengers to their destination.A PFE reefer train roars by heading for the East coast! Fact check time. We are actually delivering a boxcar full of stale air to a empty plastic building that has no floor,no machines no workers no product. Our passenger trains carry plastic people or empty seats to no where.That PFE train is making loops or going from staging to staging hauling not fruit and vegetables but,stale air.. Imagination at work.. Kids today is not stupid they understand imagination and its play value more far then we did as children due to roll playing table games and roll playing video games. Then you have the roll playing card games. A lot of teenages see model trains as a RPG like Train Sim.
Imagination what a fun word..We use more then the majority may realize.
Examples would be like how we deliver a boxcar full of freight to a industry just like the prototype.Our passenger trains speeds along hauling passengers to their destination.A PFE reefer train roars by heading for the East coast!
Fact check time.
We are actually delivering a boxcar full of stale air to a empty plastic building that has no floor,no machines no workers no product.
Our passenger trains carry plastic people or empty seats to no where.That PFE train is making loops or going from staging to staging hauling not fruit and vegetables but,stale air..
Imagination at work..
Kids today is not stupid they understand imagination and its play value more far then we did as children due to roll playing table games and roll playing video games. Then you have the roll playing card games.
A lot of teenages see model trains as a RPG like Train Sim.
Ahhh... sim, you could substitute the word simulation here for imagination - which implies imagination but is a bit different.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I can’t for the life of me see how imagination doesn’t play a large role in any model railroad.
Why?
When you look at a nicely done model of an interesting locomotive can you not appreciate it as a nice model without imagining it as something else?
When you watch an HO scale train run over a nicely detailed bridge can you not appreciate the skill of the modeler without imagining that real water is actually flowing under the bridge?
When a train leaves the visable portion of the layout can you not just accept that it has left the section of the railroad that was modeled without imagining it went off to some specific destination?
When you play a game of chess do you play the game for what it is or do you imagine armies on the field of battle?
When you walk into a significant building are you not able to appreciate the architecture without imagining yourself living there?
What about art? Do you need to imagine a date with her before you can appreciate that the Mona Lisa is a great painting?
Modeling is an activity that can stand on it's own. You don't need to imagine that it is part of something bigger than itself. I am building a model of a piece of a railroad. I can appreciate it for what it is (a model) without having to imagine it's something else. I don't get why you can't understand that.
And to your point about the tight curves, they don't bother me because I know I am operating a model railroad rather than imagining a real one.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
ATLANTIC CENTRALthe level of detail and sophistication in this hobby
LION loves that word "sophistication". It means diluted or watered down.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
mlehmanWe're all nonetheless in the same hobby.
Amen!
I can’t for the life of me see how imagination doesn’t play a large role in any model railroad. We all need imagination to cope with our small radius curves, (though I don’t need to be able to imagine the flange squeal, thank you very much), the scale compression, and, even on the smallest and most professionally run ISL, where the trains and freight they’re delivering come from. Yeah I know, the staging yard, cassette or some similar device, just don’t try and tell me it’s not “Somewheresville USA”.
Well put, Bear.
I think where people get hung up is the debate that has raged since people first started the hobby by building on a foundation of what many considered nothing but toys for kids. To make the point that this was an adult endeavour, the argument was made that pursuing realism and, perhaps, accuracy, took these practices to a higher level. In a sense, the hobby defined itself by what it as not, and it was not what kids do, play with trains.
One would think we're sophisticated enough nowadays to realize that all such recreational activity is important in providing a means to set aside the concerns, pains, and frustration of daily life and that this in itself would be good enough reason to lay some track and run a train. And it all comes from that same impetus, as no one needs to do this, however it's done. They simply enjoy it...well, except for those who feel obligated to share their misgivings.
Byron has a good point, too, in that the less we worry about what others are up to, the more we're likely to derive satisfaction from our own work. Procrastination has always been a problem for the hobby, but with the internet, criticism of what others do seems to be catching up with that as an impediment to one's own enjoyment. Lest someone think I'm picking on eaglescout, this is also a problem for some of the, ahem, more focused adherents of prototype modeling. Not everyone is interested in a fully detailed loco down to what brand TP is hanging in the toilet inside the nose of a particular road's units -- or able to pay for it -- but there is a belief among some that relentless criticism of anything that fails to meet that standard is good for the hobby. They don't want to leave anything to the imagination, it's all gotta be there in miniature, because the imagination was left locked in a closet somewhere.
As Bear pointed out, this reliance on sophistication nonetheless remains dependent on imagination at several levels. Your layout is never more than tenuously connected to an imaginary rail network, no matter how detailed your waybills might be. There is no tiny crew walking out to the lead loco with little grips full of 1:87 lunches. You still have to imagine the sweeping curves required to run on real ROW in place of what would be flangesqueal-inducing 24" min R equivalents in real life. Whether you think of it as more a toy or as a prototypic example, these compromises all have to be made or most of us would simply not see why we should bother with a layout that by necessity is at best a representational display of what is the best we can do to meet the image in our heads.
Guess what? We're all nonetheless in the same hobby. Enjoy it, but you do that best by using your imagination in concert with what you do, at whatever level and expense you feel is right, rather than second-guessing what others do with their imagination and the pleasure they derive from it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
eaglescout .......but if we totally eliminate imagination from a young persons mind......
eaglescout Where do you draw the line in the sand on your layout on sophistication?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Ulrich, I think you are on the right track. I interpret that what OP is saying, that the closer we get to placing an exact scale replica of reality...not a representation of reality....into our layout space the less that imagination is needed.
For me, there is a line that could be crossed. If I were to take a snapshot of a day in time, replicate a real railroad; and focus on assembling the exact locos, cars, structures and operating them in the precise way on that day in time, IOW copy a prototype exactly and reduce everything to 1:87 scale, I would be bored stiff.
Maybe the word imagination in not the right word. Maybe I'm thinking about "departure from reality" My layouts will always have some departure from reality in order for them to be fun for me.
A real railroad involves a lot of hard work and management. Why would I want that as a hobby?
I don't know if modeling accurately and precisely to scale everything about the prototype has yet crossed the line for me, but I think it's possible for it to get there someday.
- Douglas
Hi eaglescout
Well, I am going to really throw the pidgeon's at the cat and say there is no imagination in model railways it's very name implies that
We engineer base boards to a standard copy locomotives and rolling stock according to engineering drawings we even copy our scenes.
Our hobby is no less enjoyable for that.
I still run DC and I push things as far as I can take them with the knowledge and skills I have.
I have lights in my structures and some yard and street lights even a burning fire in an oil drum.
All points are twin coil solenoids I plan on having a working windmill courtesy of the Bachmann TTE range as this is the right type for my current layout.
If I was building a layout for exhibition purposes I would be looking more at what would entertain the public as 90% of the viewing public are not model railway people so public entertainment value is more important.
The only question that really matters is, is your version of the hobby fun?? to which the answer should be YES.
regards John
Kaboom is a brand name of Church & Dwight Co. Inc and in that light the industry name should be Church & Dwight Co. Inc or one of its contractors since they have several brand names including Arm & Hammer..
BRAKIE Guys,Here's my ISL ideas. In my case you can look until the cows come home and beyond and you'll still not find a car that doesn't belong in 77/78 or after a quick change, cars that doesn't belong on 94/95. You will not find any industry with funny names like Kaboom Chemicals. You will see names like National Plastics,Mid State Foods(a grocery distributor) T.W Wilson Corp etc. Check the trash hoppers and you'll find scrap that is correct for the industry it serves. You will find weeds,crab grass,trash,broken pallets etc instead of areas that resembles well manicured lawns in a industrialized area..
Guys,Here's my ISL ideas.
In my case you can look until the cows come home and beyond and you'll still not find a car that doesn't belong in 77/78 or after a quick change, cars that doesn't belong on 94/95. You will not find any industry with funny names like Kaboom Chemicals. You will see names like National Plastics,Mid State Foods(a grocery distributor) T.W Wilson Corp etc.
Check the trash hoppers and you'll find scrap that is correct for the industry it serves. You will find weeds,crab grass,trash,broken pallets etc instead of areas that resembles well manicured lawns in a industrialized area..
Too bad. It would actually be legitimate, thus leaving nothing to the imagination.
http://www.kaboomkaboom.com/products/kaboom-shower-tub-and-tile-cleaner.aspx
Andre
I think this is a rather classic example of a communication on a virtual platform having gone astray. If we had had this exchange while being able to see each other, this misunderstanding would never have occured.
cuyama Sir Madog That´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me. Oops, then the mistake was totally mine -- inflection is hard to read. Mein Deutsch ist ganz schrecklich, Ihr Englisch ist viel besser. Entschuldigen Sie mich!
Sir Madog That´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me.
Oops, then the mistake was totally mine -- inflection is hard to read.
Mein Deutsch ist ganz schrecklich, Ihr Englisch ist viel besser. Entschuldigen Sie mich!
And my German is just good enough to get that, so Ulrich, I too am sorry if I misunderstood your intent.
Sheldon
Sir MadogThat´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I think I am not expressing myself correctly - apologies if I stepped on your toes.
cuyamaMy point is simply that folks should do what they want – and be content with their own choices. My gripe is when people complain about what others are doing.
That´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me.
Sir Madog cuyama I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose. ... works both ways, doesn´t it, Byron?
cuyama I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose.
... works both ways, doesn´t it, Byron?
Sorry, I'm dense, I miss your point. If you are implying that my post demonstrates intolerance, I'm not seeing it. I think I'm very tolerant of anyone's modeling choices.
What I do find tedious is the complaining about others’ choices. How does a prototype modeler working to recreate scenes faithfully impact someone else who chooses to run generic models over a grass mat (to use an extreme example)?
My point is simply that folks should do what they want – and be content with their own choices. My gripe is when people complain about what others are doing.
And now I remember why I usually avoid these pointless rumination threads and will bow out.
I believe the basic fact that is being overlooked here is that model railroading and playing with toy trains are two different activities. I will not be so pompous as to define where that line is drawn, but there is a difference.
The "imagination" that the OP believes we have lost, IMO is a component of playing with toy trains, which is not what most of us do. Choosing what level of detail is appropriate for any one element of my model railroad has nothing to do with imagination. I don't expect my model to help imagine an SD40-2, I expect it to represent a SD40-2.
cuyamaI respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose.
cuyama The Original Poster has argued two or three different points as if they are problems today -- but none of them really are. If one wishes to work with less-detailed models, let kids touch them, run them on DC, and build minimalist structures and scenery to permit more to be filled-in by the imagiantion, one is totally free to do so. Lesser-detailed models are still being offered and the rest is a matter of personal preference. The only differnce is that today there are more options to build more realistic models and scenes -- if one wishes to. Sir Madog If only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do.... I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose. In my opinion, what is more prevalent these days is the "reverse elitism" of people claiming they are somehow being oppressed by those who model with more detail, with nickel silver track, with on-board sound, with command control, or whatever. For me the bottom line is: model the way you want. If you enjoy it, you're doing it right. Just please don't whine about others who are doing it differently -- they're not affecting you in the least. Except maybe in your own mind.
The Original Poster has argued two or three different points as if they are problems today -- but none of them really are. If one wishes to work with less-detailed models, let kids touch them, run them on DC, and build minimalist structures and scenery to permit more to be filled-in by the imagiantion, one is totally free to do so. Lesser-detailed models are still being offered and the rest is a matter of personal preference.
The only differnce is that today there are more options to build more realistic models and scenes -- if one wishes to.
Sir Madog If only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do....
I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose.
In my opinion, what is more prevalent these days is the "reverse elitism" of people claiming they are somehow being oppressed by those who model with more detail, with nickel silver track, with on-board sound, with command control, or whatever.
For me the bottom line is: model the way you want. If you enjoy it, you're doing it right. Just please don't whine about others who are doing it differently -- they're not affecting you in the least. Except maybe in your own mind.
Very well said.
The only difference is that today there are more options to build more realistic models and scenes -- if one wishes to.
Sir MadogIf only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do....
Ulrich and Larry, we all find the level of detail and sophistication in this hobby that suits us and that is fine. I am way more picky than some, and way more casual than some others.
But to assume that everyone in tne hobby was more "casual", or toylike, or content to use their imagination back in the day, is a gross misrepresentation of how the hobby was in, lets say 1958, or 1968, or 1978.........
Sure we accepted limitations of products, time, money, information, but many worked hard at doing the most they could toward realism with what we had.
It was way more than Tyco train sets and LifeLike grass mats.........
ATLANTIC CENTRALAt age 14
... I sold all my Marklin stuff in a frenzy, because of the toy-like appearance. That was shortly after I got my first copy of MR.
I sincerely regret that move today!
One of the great things in our hobby is that it supports so many different interests. If only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do....
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou may be right, but my assertion is that even back in the day I was interested in reaching the next level of detail and realism. At age 14 I was building craftsman freight car kits and adding full brake rigging with Cal Scale parts, installing working diaphragms on passenger cars, installing directional headlights, super detailing Mantua steamers with CalScale, and more. Sure it is easier to reach that level of detail today, but many of us did it 40 plus years ago...... Sheldon
Sheldon,While I never got into craftsman kits or overly concerened about advancing my hobby beyond my simple needs I did and still add some details. I'm far better turning Evergreen plastic shapes into freight car loads then I'm taking some scale lumber and making a yard office or station. I can live with that.
In some ways I miss the old days.
Sir Madog I may be completely off the track, but in my understanding, the OPs intention with his post was not the issue of discussing how to attract the next generation into this hobby, but to raise the question whether thhis hobby has developed into an evermore realistic, but over-complex matter (at a high cost, of course - my interjection) leaving very little room to let one´s imagination roam - just like we did as children with our rather crude trainsets and layouts. The OP may tell, whether my interpretation is right or wrong.
I may be completely off the track, but in my understanding, the OPs intention with his post was not the issue of discussing how to attract the next generation into this hobby, but to raise the question whether thhis hobby has developed into an evermore realistic, but over-complex matter (at a high cost, of course - my interjection) leaving very little room to let one´s imagination roam - just like we did as children with our rather crude trainsets and layouts.
The OP may tell, whether my interpretation is right or wrong.
You may be right, but my assertion is that even back in the day I was interested in reaching the next level of detail and realism. At age 14 I was building craftsman freight car kits and adding full brake rigging with Cal Scale parts, installing working diaphragms on passenger cars, installing directional headlights, super detailing Mantua steamers with CalScale, and more.
Sure it is easier to reach that level of detail today, but many of us did it 40 plus years ago......
eaglescout Hello all, back after a day and a half of chores and mowing the back 40. I thank you all for your respectful comments. I was not trying to change anyone and their beliefs. I was just trying to get a feel for where we stand technology wise in relation to our own and future generations. If you are maxed out to the hilt with every new item coming down the pike enjoy it and keep our economy growing. For me and others we will continue in our primitive world of DC and hearing only the clickety-clack of metal wheels rolling down my brass track on a scenic layout mostly made from scratch with some out of scale and non-prototype detailing. Enjoy the hobby just don't give it up!
Hello all, back after a day and a half of chores and mowing the back 40. I thank you all for your respectful comments. I was not trying to change anyone and their beliefs. I was just trying to get a feel for where we stand technology wise in relation to our own and future generations. If you are maxed out to the hilt with every new item coming down the pike enjoy it and keep our economy growing. For me and others we will continue in our primitive world of DC and hearing only the clickety-clack of metal wheels rolling down my brass track on a scenic layout mostly made from scratch with some out of scale and non-prototype detailing. Enjoy the hobby just don't give it up!
Eaglescout, I entered this hobby at an early age, 10, and worked retail in this business as a teen and young adult. Not sure I agree or understand the premise of your original post.
The younger people attracted to the hobby today seem to be at least partly attracted by the high tech, DCC, sound, better detail, wireless throttles, etc.
That said, comments by myself and others about appropriate types of trains for smaller/younger children still stand.
Even without any high tech, I still run DC with no sound, the kind of models I am interested in building and owning are not, and never were, suitable for preteen hands......
So for me there is a disconnect in your original premise.
A five or ten year old needs trains suitable for their skills....with or without sound. They are not ready for my detailed scale models. And that was just as true in 1968.
I still run DC, but it is DC with radio throttles, CTC, signaling, single button route turnout control, etc.
I don't like onboard sound because of its poor sound quality in HO, not because of any adversion to tech.
My five year old and ten year old grandchildren run my trains, but they know not to touch without supervision. They have their own age appropriate trains to play with.
As to issue of "developing their imaginations", I will leave that to other greater minds....
DoughlessIn that vain, yes, we have come way too far in the pursuit of realism for us to share our hobby with kids, because the models most of us use are way too precise, IOW, too delicate to share with them. Since most would choose to revert back to old technology and bring out the Blue Box, MDCs, and others for the kids, its obvious we've come too far.
That's one of the reasons I kept my older BB engines and BB and Roundhouse cars.Of course the main reason is they still fill my simple modeling needs.
I'm currently using my higher detail cars and my P2K Ohio Central GP7 simply because I wanted some type of investment return and while they were neatly packed in a storage tote I was getting a fat zero in that department.
I would like to refer back to my point and other people's points as well. There are trains that are meant for small children to play with (O 3rail, Brio, etc). My home layout that I build for myself is not meant for small hands (neither are my HO modules). I have (or will have soon) model train modules (previously mentioned Kids Run Trains), that are specifically designed for little hands (3 Rail O using Lionel Fasttrack) where strangers kids can come run my toy trains. If a teenager wants to get involved with scale modeling thats a different story. Small children for the most part do not have the attention span to appreciate highly detailed scale models. They want to see moving things, animation. Otherwise they get bored around age 8-9 and you'll never get them back into the hobby until they retire from their jobs.