"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
mlehmanSure, those who buy RTR as a group may not have the time and/or funding commitment to the hobby as a group as the hardcore scratchbuilder, but they have probably reached the level of commitment they are comfortable with.
Or some of us old goats that was young and very active in the hobby back in the bad old days recalls the necessary work just to get a engine kit built,the work of building a wooden craftsman measuring everything before you cut it..Ever see a how a HO steam frame is built from brass stock or the cab? I watch my dad build a frame,cab and boiler for a PRR 0-6-0.Even he was smart enough to buy Kemtron detail parts like domes,stacks,headlights etc.
No sir,no sir,I'll take today's engines and cars over those bad old days.
BTW.Before he was halfway through building that engine a brass PRR 0-6-0 was released and he bought one and sold his project 0-6-0 and Kemtron parts...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My Grandma had a good saying, she actually had a lot of good sayings, “If you can’t say something nice, say nothing”.
My Grandfather would say,speak your mind but,do it in a nice way.
Some times feathers gets ruffled over a touchy topic like this one or a comment like "if your cars and engines isn't 100% correct they're toys.
This topic was bound to flare up and I don't think Howard meant that to happen but,his words did come across on the elitist side..
Last I looked there was all types enjoying the hobby their way.
BRAKIENo sir,no sir,I'll take today's engines and cars over those bad old days.
I'll take it all, new RTR, scratchbuilt, old stuff from the distant past that ran like crap or doesn't run at all, new state of the art DCC loco's, whatever! If it doesn't have a place on the layout, it may have a place on the shelf or in a box in the closet that gets taken out once in a while. Even if it is a different scale than what I model it is all part of a hobby I really enjoy. Just having it gives me a warm fuzzy.
No, I am not a hoarder, I do pass a lot of stuff on, that makes both of us happy (also my wife).
There is a guy I see at all the train shows that does nothing but make trees in various scales. I wonder where he would fit in this conversation.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Isn't part of the failure of modelers to be interested in building wood kits have something to do with the era they are interested in?
Does anybody scratchbuild, or make a commercially available wood or resin kit, of a 60 foot high cube Gunderson boxcar for the Norfolk Southern?
- Douglas
DoughlessIsn't part of the failure of modelers to be interested in building wood kits have something to do with the era they are interested in?
Absolutely.Even the wooden (non house) structures are limited replaced by brick buildings and the remaining brick industrial building is slowly sliding into the history books due to high maintenance and insurance costs. These industries move into more modern steel industrial buildings like Pikestuffs warehouse..
BRAKIE Doughless Isn't part of the failure of modelers to be interested in building wood kits have something to do with the era they are interested in? Absolutely.Even the wooden (non house) structures are limited replaced by brick buildings and the remaining brick industrial building is slowly sliding into the history books due to high maintenance and insurance costs. These industries move into more modern steel industrial buildings like Pikestuffs warehouse..
Doughless Isn't part of the failure of modelers to be interested in building wood kits have something to do with the era they are interested in?
Yeah. Its great to be able to continue to enjoy things you have done for decades, but things move on as well.
I'm sure that if someone wants to begin to model an older era, wood kits may be a fun way of doing it from time to time.
Elitist! “One percenter”! Wot a load of old cobblers!!!
Now now. My wife is also one who used the word elitist. Dont shoot the messenger or my lovely wife. She is a British northerner and calls 'em as she sees 'em. I dare say it seems like she is cut from similar clot as you Mr bear. Cheers.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BRAKIESome times feathers gets ruffled over a touchy topic like this one......
BRAKIE... "if your cars and engines isn't 100% correct they're toys
BRAKIE...and I don't think Howard meant that to happen but,his words did come across on the elitist side..
BRAKIELast I looked there was all types enjoying the hobby their way.
I used to build wood freight car kits, and scratchbuild wood freight cars and structures, too, but when I discovered styrene as a scratchbuilding medium, I pretty much lost interest in wood for modelling (although I did use quite a bit of it to scratchbuild the house in which my layout is currently located).The last model I built with some wood was this crane, based on a couple in the steel mill where I worked:
The wood is limited to the structural shapes on the sides of the crane's bridge and the underside of the walkways supporting the motors and gearboxes, and the electrical lockers. The handrails were originally built-up from basswood angles, too, but much of them have been replaced with ones built-up from styrene.Most of my stock of scale lumber was given away, although I did re-deck several modified Athearn flatcars using scale 3"x8" stripwood. If I had more flatcars to do, I'd use styrene strips.
I don't miss building with wood one bit, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone finding their own pleasure in doing so.I hope to build a wood trestle for a scene on the upper level of my layout, but there will be no trees harmed.
it’s only a touchy subject because some folks regard it as a right to be offended by a differing view.
I find Howard's threads (and those of a few others) provocative (in a good sense), and enjoy seeing the views and attitudes of those responding, whether I agree with them or not. I do agee with the idea that kit building,or kit bashing and scratchbuilding add more enjoyment to the hobby, because they certainly do for me. However, I've seen enough to realise that not everyone finds their enjoyment in that, and many have no interest in it at all. I only hope that they're having as much fun as me.
Wayne
I believe an attitude exists among the anti-RTR crowd that "it was hard for me, it should be hard for everybody else". They resent the fact that the quality of models or the function of control systems that took them years of work to produce is now available off the shelf to the lesser modelers, enabling them assemble a reasonable layout without "paying their dues" like they had to.
Thinking like this is what caused me to give up the hobby in the early 90's when I realized that while the first few were fun, fabricating high hoods for my N&W diesels, adding N&W specific details, painting and decaling everything myself, and doing all the work to assemble a system to control it all was just more than I would ever have time for.
What brought me back to the hobby was DCC and good quality RTR models.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
carl425 I believe an attitude exists among the anti-RTR crowd that "it was hard for me, it should be hard for everybody else". They resent the fact that the quality of models or the function of control systems that took them years of work to produce is now available off the shelf to the lesser modelers, enabling them assemble a reasonable layout without "paying their dues" like they had to. Thinking like this is what caused me to give up the hobby in the early 90's when I realized that while the first few were fun, fabricating high hoods for my N&W diesels, adding N&W specific details, painting and decaling everything myself, and doing all the work to assemble a system to control it all was just more work than I would ever have time for. What brought me back to the hobby was DCC and good quality RTR models.
Thinking like this is what caused me to give up the hobby in the early 90's when I realized that while the first few were fun, fabricating high hoods for my N&W diesels, adding N&W specific details, painting and decaling everything myself, and doing all the work to assemble a system to control it all was just more work than I would ever have time for.
Well, maybe I'm not part of the "anti RTR" crowd even though I have been at this a good while and build a lot of stuff, but I don't think any such thing. I'm self involved when it comes to model trains, my only thought about others is I hope they are having fun.
If they are intersted in what I do, I will share. If I'm interested in what I see them do, I will ask.
I will say however, that I find I have much less in common with those who do not build much of anything.
I'm not interested in ego contest conversations about what they just "bought" - so what, I have money too.
I'm interested in how someone made a good looking scene, or detailed a loco into a different class, or weathered a freight car "just enough", or created a better control or signal system.
I have no problem with those who just buy RTR, I buy my share. Again, I just find I have little in common with those who approach their whole modeling experiance with what they can "buy".
For me, model railroading is about creating the little minature world on the layout, not every car needs to be contest level detailed, not every loco needs to look exactly as it did on September 24, 1954 - it just needs to give the over all impression of the place and time I have chosen.
Control systems - I don't expect others to choose what I have. I looked at DCC, real hard, two times. Rejected it, trust me, I don't resent anything in that department.
I want signaling and CTC. DCC does not make that any easier. So I stayed with DC once I figured out I could have the features I wanted most without all the expense of decoders in 135 locos.
I was going to build a CTC signal system anyway, I got the Advanced Cab Control as a free bonus with the signal system.........
In fact, I am amazed that so few people in this hobby are interested in signaling....
Good RTR models brought you back to the hobby - the frustrations of the preorder marketing have actually made me consider leaving the hobby - good thing I have most of the models I need and want for my layout theme.
For me, at age 59, and modeling since the late 60's, the "90's" was just ten minutes ago...........
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm not interested in ego contest conversations about what they just "bought" - so what, I have money too.
If and when I ever find that Bev-Bel/Athearn blue A&R 50' ACF boxcar that I been looking for the pass 20 years I'll be so excited that I will share the good news. No ego trip but,pure happiness with handsprings. I almost did a post when the treasure hunt ended for the Bev-Bel/Athearn jade green Berlin Mills Ry 50' ACF boxcar-a 12 year hunt.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not interested in ego contest conversations about what they just "bought" - so what, I have money too. If and when I ever find that Bev-Bel/Athearn blue A&R 50' ACF boxcar that I been looking for the pass 20 years I'll be so excited that I will share the good news. No ego trip but,pure happiness with handsprings. I almost did a post when the treasure hunt ended for the Bev-Bel/Athearn jade green Berlin Mills Ry 50' ACF boxcar-a 12 year hunt.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not interested in ego contest conversations about what they just "bought" - so what, I have money too.
rrebellI assume you have it on an e-bay watch list?
No.I check e-bay every day so,I really don't have a list.
Maybe I should start a list since there's still several cars on my treasure hunt list.
I found several IPD era boxcars like that. I gave up on the Bev-Bel/Athearn M&NJ car and bought the newer Bachmann ACF M&NJ 50' ACF boxcar since its a clone to the Athearn car.
I also been thinking about sharing photos of my IPD boxcar collection in the WPF since I talk about them a lot.
So there's all different ends of the spectrum to this hobby. I can appreciate the wonderful work of some modelers, but if I had to do it myself, I'd rather slit my own wrists. Yet I enjoy running the trains I do have and I throroughly enjoy reading the prototype history of all the different railroads and/or models out there.
Maybe perhaps I'm more historian than modeler or collector?
What some folks here view as relaxing I would view as sheer torture.
Also my "designer's eye" gravitates toward those steam engines that have a certain aesthetic look--usually really clean lines--and I cannot find a single railroad where I just love the look of every engine that they had so much such that I'd want to model that one particular railroad exclusively. I like this engine or two from this railroad and that engine from another railroad. (For example, with automobiles I prefer the beautiful clean lines of Mazda Miatas, Porsche 911's and the "Cokebottle styling" of the '68 through '70 Dodge Charger).
In steam, I like B&LE 2-10-4's, Rutland 2-8-2's, Rio Grande and Texas & Pacific non-elesco 4-8-2s, early Santa Fe 2-10-2's, some GN and SP&S 4-8-4's, C&O 2-6-6-2's, B&O and UP 2-8-8-0's, and some Seaboard articulateds, to name a few. But I can't plausibly fit all or even very many of them into any one model railroad. There's just no way. And owning some of them...is just not possible in plastic.
Respectfully submitted--
John Mock
BRAKIE rrebell I assume you have it on an e-bay watch list? No.I check e-bay every day so,I really don't have a list. Maybe I should start a list since there's still several cars on my treasure hunt list. I found several IPD era boxcars like that. I gave up on the Bev-Bel/Athearn M&NJ car and bought the newer Bachmann ACF M&NJ 50' ACF boxcar since its a clone to the Athearn car. I also been thinking about sharing photos of my IPD boxcar collection in the WPF since I talk about them a lot.
rrebell I assume you have it on an e-bay watch list?
At the risk of either extinguishing or throwing kerosene on the flames .... when plastic kits of the shake the box nature were new, it seems to me that the quality of lettering compared to the best of the Athearn metal kits, or the Varney lithographed side metal reefer kits, that came before them took a step or two backwards.
Decals, while they had their issues back when the decal paper was so thick, looked great compared to the Athearn plastic kit lettering. That is why KarLine and BevBel and another line whose name I forgot did so well with custom lettered Athearn kits.
To me the most challenging and significant improvement in today's super and costly RTR cars, from Athearn but also Tangent and the others, is the quality of the lettering. It is very difficult for even a pretty skilled modeler to equal or exceed that with decals or dry transfers. Some can, don't get me wrong. But in terms of raising the bar, I think there are a good many guys who can scratchbuild or kit build or kit bash to a level of quality quite comparable to these nice ready to run cars, but the painting/lettering aspect -- that seems to me to be the higher hurdle.
Just my opinion but there it is.
Dave Nelson
dknelsonTo me the most challenging and significant improvement in today's super and costly RTR cars, from Athearn but also Tangent and the others, is the quality of the lettering. Dave Nelson
I totally agree with that. The painting and printing on models of the last 10-15 years has gotten really good! It would be extremely difficult to match that unless you had really mad skillz at that kind of stuff!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not interested in ego contest conversations about what they just "bought" -
I'm not interested in ego contest conversations about what they just "bought" -
Or by what they built for that matter. But ego is a slippery thing and creeps in often when it wasn't consciously intended. I don't think most are interested in an ego contest TBH.
For me, model railroading is about creating the little minature world on the layout <snip>
That's IT in a nut shell, and how you get there isn't terribly important - it's supposed to be fun and not about, this way is more satisfying or best vs. that way.
I am definitely interested in it, but it's hard enough to get a layout built and sceniced so well, you have to be stable in a house for a number of years and be able to make it far enough to reach level 8 on the Model Railroading advancement scale. J/K!!!
Good RTR models brought you back to the hobby - the frustrations of the preorder marketing have actually made me consider leaving the hobby Sheldon
I've gotten by quite well ignoring pre-order for the past 8 or so years. I manage to mostly get what RTR stuff I need by just watching when the stuff comes out and planning to buy it from some vendors; whatever I haven't managed to get at the time they were out, usually I've been able to hunt it down later at shows or Ebay or whatever. I have found that adapting to todays market and getting the RTR stuff I needed hasn't been that difficult.
Riogrande, all great points.
With reference to my ego comment, be it trains, or cars, or houses, I always seem to have more in common to talk about with the guy who built his himself than the guy who paid someone else to - that's all.
I also understand and agree about still being able to find what you need in spite of the preorder non sense, but I have to say, I'm not really fond of "hunt" like some people are. I would be just as happy to walk into my LHS and say "give me that".
Dave Nelson--
Yes, you hit the nail on the head. I actually had excellent decal skills back in the day (before my eyes turned 45 or so) but I realized 15 years ago or so that the new stuff had lettering that was crisp and far superior to what I could achieve with decals and clearcoat.
So even if/when I did a decent job building some kit, I couldn't touch the factory painted and assembled stuff.
Thank you--
John
The pre-order stuff has not affected me, Modeltrainstuff ussually gets an order in of the lines they carry, you have to be faster though as you usually have to make up your mind in a day or less or they will be gone.
Ego contests???
Maybe just perhaps one could be misreading some people.
When I find a really neat model that I absolutely have to have, or can't live without, there is joy in that, and I will email a photo to my long-time friend who is the sales manager of a train store...and we'll discuss the acquisition a bit, or perhaps he'll send me a slight jab like recently "that's great--keep it for more than a month this time". This after he said "that's great, I have a (new hybrid engine) that cost half of what you spent for yours"...
Back in the day, when there were a bunch of us that frequented Timonium and other shows, we all did the show and tell thing. We were all proud of what we acquired. However, it was not an "ego" thing, ever. It was just "wow, look at this" and "let's put her on the track and see what she can do". We weren't jealous of each other...
Of those guys I used to shop with (I was by far the youngest), 3 are deceased, 2 are no longer into (brass or) attending shows at all, and 1 became the sales manager of a train store and doesn't have time to go to shows other than the ones his boss and he attend.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I also understand and agree about still being able to find what you need in spite of the preorder non sense, but I have to say, I'm not really fond of "hunt" like some people are. I would be just as happy to walk into my LHS and say "give me that". Sheldon
For a while between 2004 and 2008 there was a vendor in CT I used to actually "pre-order" items from and he was good to work with until I went through a lay-off and wasn't in the position to commit without the budget for it. After that I simply went with buying as I was able to when items of interest hit the shops and have been doing it that way since. The "hunt" can be a bit of a hassle since my vendor of choice has been MBK for the past 5-6 years, but often the items I want sell out mega fast so I have to start checking their website 6 - 8 times a day once I know the items are off the boat. The last couple of items I was after was like that, and dang if they weren't all sold out within a matter of hours from bing listed. If I can't camp the website for some reason, on a trip or something, "fun's" over and it a scramble to find another vendor.
The new Ortner 5-bay CSDPU hoppers were like that - come in stock, I ordered my two 5-packs and later that evening they were "sold out". Yes, it sure would be easier to have an LHS to just walk into. But I don't have one of those, and even when I did in other states, the cost of buying from them was substantially more than mail order and my budget was very limited so I needed to shop for decent discount prices.
I've got the "hunt" thing down pretty much to a science now but yeah, it's not always fun.
You got that right. As it happens, half the things I want to buy are "sold out" within hours of getting in stock, so thats when the fun begins, watching the website for the items to be listed and then "getting while the getting is good". Their email notification system is notoriously unreliable too. The last time it actually worked, it got the email well after the items were listed and mostly sold out. The last time, with the 5-bay hoppers, I didn't get any email at all.
PRR8259When I find a really neat model that I absolutely have to have, or can't live without, there is joy in that, and I will email a photo to my long-time friend who is the sales manager of a train store...
Indeed..When a treasure hunt for a given(in my case) IPD boxcar comes to a end after years of looking there is joy, lots of joy simply because its like finding a rare jewel among a barrel of common jewels..
BTW Guys,there was several custom painters of Athearn cars,Bev-Bel,Rail Runner CM Shops and another one that escapes my mind.
PRR8259 Dave Nelson-- Yes, you hit the nail on the head. I actually had excellent decal skills back in the day (before my eyes turned 45 or so) but I realized 15 years ago or so that the new stuff had lettering that was crisp and far superior to what I could achieve with decals and clearcoat. So even if/when I did a decent job building some kit, I couldn't touch the factory painted and assembled stuff. Thank you-- John
With reference to lettering, yes most everything today is very good.
Back in the blue box days, it varied a lot from paint scheme to paint scheme - some were good, some not so much.
I have a lot of old Varney metal side cars, the lettering is amazingly good. Actually those cars were pretty darn good, they hold up well against a lot of newer stuff, especially with just a few improvements.
Decals - I do pretty good decal work if I may say so:
The secret in my opinion - Scalecoat paint.
By starting with a hard high gloss surface, and using good decals (my custom ones are from Rail Graphics), the film really does disappear in the clear coat.