PRR8259 Sheldon-- As for plastic diesels (or almost any diesels) I've spent a great deal of time online window shopping and simply can't find one that I need enough to separate me from my money. I just like steam. John
Sheldon--
As for plastic diesels (or almost any diesels) I've spent a great deal of time online window shopping and simply can't find one that I need enough to separate me from my money.
I just like steam.
John
There in lies the real difference betwen our modeling.
What railroad do you model? Whst era do you model?
I "model" 1954, railroads had diesels in 1954. I'm interested in creating a believable image of 1954, even for the fictional roadname.
I'm not interested in collecting and running trains just because I "like" them. I did pick an era in railroad history that includes most of what I like, and I stick to the place and time I chose.
Sheldon
BRAKIE The newer brass is what 500-600 locomotives for the run?
The newer brass is what 500-600 locomotives for the run?
Maybe hybrids? I don't know numbers.
The newer (non-hybrid) brass is 50 or 60 locomotives for a run, split into groups of as little as 10 of each version. Someday, perhaps others outside the hobby will see the incredible detailing, rarity, and yes, value, in those engines and perhaps then they will be viewed as art just like many of the much more common objects seen on the Antiques Road Show.
Email and internet posts cannot convey tone.
My "worth owning" remark was not intended to be snobbish and I'm sorry if it read that way to you. It seems to me you missed the point of that paragraph...
One more thought about brass, 10 minutes after I saw the first Atlas diesel, or surely after I saw the first Proto2000 diesel, I was sure I would never buy another brass diesel ever again.
The one brass diesel I once had was one of the six pieces I sold off.........many years ago......
PRR8259In case you haven't noticed, the plastic diesel prices (with sound and DCC) are rapidly approaching the prices of good used brass diesels, depending, once again, upon the exact model in question and the drivetrain in it...and of course, plain DC is no problem for me.
I agree at full MSRP but,there are discounts. I've seen brass diesels from Hallmark,Alco Models and Trains Inc for as low as $85.00 but,all had that loud KTM drive I remember them from the 60s when I had several@ $32.95 each and back then that gear whine was acceptable. Of course the steam engines had the smoother drives. My United Santa Fe 1950 Class 2-8-0 ran rather quiet as did my United Class B 2 Truck Shay.
Even with that said I might be trading for a Trains Inc RS1325 custom painted for his Toledo Shore Ry.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Howard Zane Sheldon, On the value bit, I agree as I rarely sell any of my equipment that operates on my pike. I do care about value as I'm now a "collectible" age wise (upgrade from artifact) and when I eventually join the after-life, my family will be the ones disposing of the serious mess of trains. Knowing values and having many models of quality will greatly be a help. HZ
Sheldon,
On the value bit, I agree as I rarely sell any of my equipment that operates on my pike. I do care about value as I'm now a "collectible" age wise (upgrade from artifact) and when I eventually join the after-life, my family will be the ones disposing of the serious mess of trains. Knowing values and having many models of quality will greatly be a help.
HZ
Howard,
I understand and respect that. And having worked in this business when I was young, I have no interest in being in the business side of this hobby now.
What happens to our trains when we are gone is a totally separate issue in my mind. But if I only paid $100 for a loco, who cares if they only get $50 at the yard sale? That's still a $5k yard sale for a bunch of toys I had a lots of fun with......
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL ......not really interested in "already been played with" stuff at train shows, brass or otherwise.... Sheldon Sheldon, I've read your posts over the years and respect your opinions on many things. Always well reasoned and backed up with experience. But the above statement has been said many times and I just don't see the consistency with what I think your approach to the hobby is. While maybe not a pure or frequent scratchbuilder, your experience in hobby shops and kitbashing your various models indicate to me you have no aversion towards repairing model trains, definitely not a modeler who only buys something and places it on the track unmodified because he has too. Given that approach, I would think you would be a frequent buyer of "already played with" models...getting them for good prices then using your skills to fix them up the way you want them...yet you say that you hardly ever do. That's why a lot of us buy used, to fix them up to suit our needs. Like I said, I enjoy reading your posts and how you approach the hobby, but I can't seem to understand your displeasure with buying used items considering your experience. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I would be interested in knowing a little more of your thinking.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ......not really interested in "already been played with" stuff at train shows, brass or otherwise.... Sheldon
......not really interested in "already been played with" stuff at train shows, brass or otherwise....
I've read your posts over the years and respect your opinions on many things. Always well reasoned and backed up with experience. But the above statement has been said many times and I just don't see the consistency with what I think your approach to the hobby is.
While maybe not a pure or frequent scratchbuilder, your experience in hobby shops and kitbashing your various models indicate to me you have no aversion towards repairing model trains, definitely not a modeler who only buys something and places it on the track unmodified because he has too.
Given that approach, I would think you would be a frequent buyer of "already played with" models...getting them for good prices then using your skills to fix them up the way you want them...yet you say that you hardly ever do. That's why a lot of us buy used, to fix them up to suit our needs.
Like I said, I enjoy reading your posts and how you approach the hobby, but I can't seem to understand your displeasure with buying used items considering your experience. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I would be interested in knowing a little more of your thinking.
Well, I'm happy to explain. I will admit I'm a little neurotic about that kind of stuff.
There is actually a list of somewhat unrelated reasons for my behavior on this topic.
First, I prefer having the boxes, paperwork, etc - not for resale or collector value - just because it feels "complete". And I store most models in their original boxes if they are not on the layout. Yes, I have a 1000 or more freght car boxes........
Second, I don't value the "hunt" and I don't like "negotiating the deal" like some people do. I much prefer to walk into the store, pay a fair price, and go home. OR, better yet, www.sendittomenow.com...........
In fact, I hardly ever went to the train shows back when they were real busy. Pushing, shoving, waiting, being cut in front of by rude people, noise, confussion, digging through stuff, etc - none of that is fun to me. It is just a necessary evil of finding some of the parts I need.
Now, having said all that. I can scout a train show for NOS stuff on my list, buy some stuff, and get going in a few hours or less - especially these days.
I just don't want stuff others have messed around with a whole bunch - it's not about money one way or the other.
And my want list is very specific anyway, I would not be walking through the train show, see something and think "what can I do with this". My project list is already too long.
I stopped buying used cars when I could aford new ones - but I keep them a long time (don't get bored with them either). I don't buy used tools for my construction business, I bought one high quality garden tractor brand new and it has lasted 20 years and going strong - I just prefer to buy new, or at least in the box "new old stock" even if it's from a private seller.
PRR8259 Yes, I read the Atlas forum, but closed my account, so cannot reply or see some photos. The announcement looks great. Hopefully their handrails will not be exceedingly fragile as some others'. As far as "affordability" is concerned, I stood and watched while my friend picked up a bunch of HO brass passenger cars: free rolling, nickel plated bodies, painted and lettered Amtrak as appropriate, with windows already installed, for about the same as the current MSRP for similar cars in HO plastic. Not all brass has to be expensive--and sometimes the older run brass models can be a better value than anything new...depending upon what a buyer wants. In case you haven't noticed, the plastic diesel prices (with sound and DCC) are rapidly approaching the prices of good used brass diesels, depending, once again, upon the exact model in question and the drivetrain in it...and of course, plain DC is no problem for me. By Sheldon's admission, he might have more than $10000 invested in his customized HO steamers, through the years. All my trains, the layout, books, etc., everything railroad related that I have add up to about half of that. We all have to decide how best to spend our limited resources. I don't need a lot of trains, only a few. Your choices may differ. John
Yes, I read the Atlas forum, but closed my account, so cannot reply or see some photos. The announcement looks great. Hopefully their handrails will not be exceedingly fragile as some others'.
As far as "affordability" is concerned, I stood and watched while my friend picked up a bunch of HO brass passenger cars: free rolling, nickel plated bodies, painted and lettered Amtrak as appropriate, with windows already installed, for about the same as the current MSRP for similar cars in HO plastic.
Not all brass has to be expensive--and sometimes the older run brass models can be a better value than anything new...depending upon what a buyer wants.
In case you haven't noticed, the plastic diesel prices (with sound and DCC) are rapidly approaching the prices of good used brass diesels, depending, once again, upon the exact model in question and the drivetrain in it...and of course, plain DC is no problem for me.
By Sheldon's admission, he might have more than $10000 invested in his customized HO steamers, through the years. All my trains, the layout, books, etc., everything railroad related that I have add up to about half of that. We all have to decide how best to spend our limited resources. I don't need a lot of trains, only a few.
Your choices may differ.
OK, where do I start.
First, yes I likely have $10,000 in locos, diesel and steam, most (but not all) purchased in the last 25-30 years - I've been at this hobby nearly 50 years now. In raw numbers my fleet is mostly diesel, since most trains are pulled by 3-4 powered unit sets. Most of my diesels are Proto2000, Intermountain and Genesis - all first generation to fit the era of my layout.
Steam represents about 50 pieces of the 130 locos. Most are Spectrum, Proto2000, a few BLI, two brass, and a few others. Most have been customized or kit bashed in some way - some a little, some a lot. Most are lettered for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, others are all B&O, C&O, and WM and most are reasonably proto correct.
I also have nearly 1000 freight cars, 200 passenger cars, and countless other bits and pieces that allow one to build a layout that fills 1000 sq ft.
Not to mention tools, air brushes, etc, etc - because I like to build models.
BUT, it has taken a life time to get to this point - WITHOUT EVER selling off everything and starting over. I started at age 10, I'm 59 now..........
So even if we look as loco purchases just over the last 25 years, that's only $400 a year in locos.
Now, about brass. I get the craftsmanship thing, I get the proto specific thing, I get the quality thing. All good reasons to buy brass if they fit your era and roadname goals, especially if there are no other choices.
I have two, and there are one or two more I would not mind having - maybe one day real soon.
But, to use an example from my layout, both of my brass locos are USRA light Pacifics, and both have been modified and lettered for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
Some how I think that did in the resale value argument........
They now have plastic Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann Spectrum long haul tenders.....
Which brings us to this "resale" topic. Remember, I just said I have never sold off my trains and then bought new/more.
In fact, in 49 years, I have only sold off about 6 items total........
I don't buy stuff, get bored, change my mind, sell it off at a loss, and then buy the next thing to get bored with that. Not with cars, or boats, or jet skis, or motorcyles, and surely not with trains. It simply is not who I am or how I am built.
I have never bought "toys", or "luxuries", unless I could truely aford them, and I learned a long time ago who I am and what I like - so I don't generally get "bored" with my choices - in anything.
I still have the 1700 record albums I have purchased over my lifetime - still in near mint condition, only played on the best equipment......back to trains....
So why would I worry about the resale value of something I have no intention of ever selling? And since I would modify them, and letter them for my private road, resale value would be compromised anyway? Keeping them stone cold stock, in most cases, would provide no enjoyment for me - except in once case, a WM K2 Pacific........
John says he only needs a few trains, just like I only need to have loco models from a few prototypes. My layout goals are very specific, and are easliy withing my means - so long as I don't spend $100,000 on that loco fleet, or $10-20k on DCC and sound I don't like or need.
But I have nine Spectrum 4-8-2 Heavies so that my railroad has a realistic fleet look. In fact, I have anywhere from 2 to 10 of nearly every loco that says ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
John, you have to admit, in the context of this whole discussion, the "worth owning" comment was a bit "snobish", don't you think?
You have admitted your not a "builder", OK, that's fine....I'm not a "collector" of the fine work of others.
But down to the last blue box freight car, I consider all my trains all "worth owning" because together as a whole they make a complete package that I created - kind of like Howards beautiful layout......
Howard ZaneValue....I've almost given up trying to explain to newbies that if a specific model that they want and if there is a choice between plastic/cast or brass, go for the brass counterpart if affordable. Brass by far will hold its value much better than the mass produced plastic/cast counterpart. In days past, many times a small profit could be obtained when selling the brass model. Today, possibly a small gain if bought right, kept well, and becomes rare or extremely desireable. But on the whole, if your brass model is not wholesaled, you should at least break even or come close. Plastic/cast.....forgetaboutit!!!
Only because the majority can't afford brass and because its made in small runs that's why it holds it value but,detail wise brass diesels may lose against plastic like the higher detailed Genesis type models.
One look at the price tag of a brass locomotive the average new modeler will choose plastic at the fraction of the costs. Compare the new brass announcements to the plastic announcements.
Have you heard about or seen the new Scale Trains pre production SD40-2? No? It has all the brass SD40-2s beat and with DCC/Sound at $199.00 its sure to be a hit. Don't want all the details? Their Operator line with DCC/Sound is $119.00. The DCC ready is $79.00. Both will need grabs plows,uncoupling bars and mu hoses added at the modeler's convenience..
- Douglas
Well said, John. One reason that brass models will always be marketable is as John put it...if there is nothing available in either plastic or cast that represents what he is modeling or looking for.... try brass. In brass, a good chance exists that a specific model may be found as so many different roads and equipment have been done over the years.
Value....I've almost given up trying to explain to newbies that if a specific model that they want and if there is a choice between plastic/cast or brass, go for the brass counterpart if affordable. Brass by far will hold its value much better than the mass produced plastic/cast counterpart. In days past, many times a small profit could be obtained when selling the brass model. Today, possibly a small gain if bought right, kept well, and becomes rare or extremely desireable. But on the whole, if your brass model is not wholesaled, you should at least break even or come close. Plastic/cast.....forgetaboutit!!!
Runability....With only three exceptions, I have not seen a brass model that can not be tweaked or modified to run to perfection. Actually I now have one of the three dogs that has been modified and tweaked and is now close to being perfect. The three dogs.....well I hate to say bad things about anything, but I'm sure that most who read this are curious. This is my opinion and I'm sure some would disagree. Here are my choices for the hall of shame....NWSL/FED Cotten Belt 4-4-2. Alco PRR E5 4-4-2, and Alco NYC K3 4-6-2. The Alco K3 is the one that is now perfect.
Wow, ok, I wasn't attempting to push the hot button or to get anybody fired up here, at all.
One important distinction: some of the steam models I want to own are simply not available in plastic (or as yet even as a hybrid) at any price, and never were. Nothing in plastic is even "close" to some of the engines. It's not like I could buy something "close" and detail it even if I had the skills/time/etc. to do it.
For me there is a certain satisfaction in owning just a handful of models that are much nicer than anything I can possibly build myself, because I think the fine models themselves are "art". For me to own something that is one of only eleven made in the world, that I cannot possibly build or even paint, myself, is actually pretty cool--but I'm going to run it and not just sit it on the shelf. Yes, to me the fine art models are "worth owning" but I was absolutely not trying to project that onto anyone or everyone else. There are hybrids and plastic models that are "worth owning"...I just prefer road specific steam, which with limited exceptions forces me into a more expensive category.
I have attempted kitbashing freight cars and quickly learned it's just not for me. I tried to do a Reading Class GHP mill gondola (planed down sides of an Athearn 50' gon and started adding new ribs). I did finish it, painted and lettered it, but in my opinion, it was a miserable fail, and I threw it away after running it on my layout for a few years, because I was ashamed of my work.
I don't disrespect people who want to build or customize their own models in any way. It's just not me.
I never said you or anyone else should want what I want.
I was saying that from my 20's to now (I'm 48) the nice folks I've met at train shows have become my friends and taught me a great deal.
ATLANTIC CENTRALStill have most all the trains I have bought in 49 years, and a few my father bought before that......
I still have all my Dad's locomotives..I never use them but,I do take them out of the old wooden sea chest and look at them from time to time.
My current HO collection was started in 97 after a brief time in O Scale 2 rail.
OK, I have been quiet on this but now I have to speak up.
John - "worth owning"? Come on now, there is no more subjective statement about this hobby than that. I would bet that 75% of what you consider "worth owning", I would never part with a dollar for, let alone the high prices you have paid.
You talked about your recent brass purchase - you could not give it to me (assuming I had to keep it and use it), I have zero interest, I don't care how nice a model it is, or how well it runs, or what it is worth now, or what it might be worth later.
On the other hand, I likely value lots of what you consider "junk", low priced platforms I use to build the models I want. I have 130 locos, with a dollar cost average purchase price likely only a little over $100 each.
You know what?, they all run good, pull well, are highly detailed and nearly all have been kit bashed/customized/tuned up in someway by me.
In 130 locos, guess how many different prototype roads are represented? Only three actual roads (B&O, C&O, WM) and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
And, in that 130 locos, only about 4 were bought "used", two of them are brass.....my only two brass. Admittedly, a number of them were bought "NOS" at good prices......
Never owned a Big Boy, K4, etc, etc,..........
NO interest in "collecting", only interested in building my little minature world. I only need the parts and pieces for that. The rest of railroading I can admire from afar without filling up shelves with stuff I won't use/run.
Larry - maybe you and John made a lot of bad purchases back in the day, but I can't say I did - well maybe one or two - but I learned quick and listened close to those older than me.
Still have most all the trains I have bought in 49 years, and a few my father bought before that......not really interested in "already been played with" stuff at train shows, brass or otherwise....
PRR8259When I was younger I made some most unwise purchases, but the friends I have made at the train shows (specifically Timonium and Brass Expo as I don't really attend others) have taught me a lot about the hobby and about what is really worth owning.
John,When we modelers was young the majority of us had all the answers and made bad purchases.
Between my dad,the Columbus Model Railroad Club and Hall's hobby shop-in the basement of Hall's hardware (now long gone) I learn the ways of the hobby.
As far as train show dealers and like I mention I have my favorites even though we don't know each other's names. I have had several hobby shop owners that was acquaintances. I did work part time in several hobby shops over the years.
I once did pick up a lemon brass articulated at a train show some years ago. A key part, that you would not expect to be missing, was missing. Someone had disassembled the factory painted Precision Scale WP 4-6-6-4, for whatever reason, and left out the special spring-loaded roller part that lifted the boiler up off the front engine to the correct height. With or without good lighting, I never would have expected or looked for that. John Gurdak (uncledavesbrass) helped me out with obtaining a replacement.
The relationships with certain folks in this hobby that I have made at the train shows have been invaluable.
Recently I purchased another brass steamer, and subsequently experienced a problem with it. Howard Zane has now gone the extra mile to make absolutely certain that I am a happy, completely satisfied customer. He got my "dream engine" (a neat green boilered T&P 4-8-2) from another dealer, and is taking the one model back in for a very fair trade, considering the circumstances. At the end of the day, I'm out only a little cash, but am still into the new model at a low enough price point, below what should be its fair market value and well below the MSRP a couple years ago.
Had I not attended several Timonium and Brass Expo shows, and had I not been introduced to Howard, who is quite an original (seriously in a good way), I would have really missed out. Thanks HZ.
When I was younger I made some most unwise purchases, but the friends I have made at the train shows (specifically Timonium and Brass Expo as I don't really attend others) have taught me a lot about the hobby and about what is really worth owning.
I have yet to pick up a lemon at a train show. Somelike the greenberg shows have test tracks.
Joe Staten Island West
Howard ZaneActually there are many great deals if you look. It is a mystery why more stores don't sell used trains. By 1974, my shop was over 50% used trains. Not only was this lucrative, but it brought in many due to uniqueness, and great prices. These days were the seeds of my starting the Timonium show in 1982.
A lot of my IPD short line boxcars was bought used at train shows,hobby shops and e-Bay.
About used..I mention on one forum one way to cut cost is to buy quality used locomotives from various sources and the replies made to that was negative along the lines of you're buying other people's junk,they might be stolen and best to by new from a reputable hobby shop..
90% of my locomotives was bought use at train shows,e-bay and hobby shops all was in like new to mint condition. I'm yet to by a lemon.
However,know the going use prices and discount prices before you fork over cash from your capital expense fund. There are dealers overcharging for used equipment some charge more then the going street discount.
About e-Bay..I only buy from the e-bay stores that is also a B&M hobby shop. I confirm their shop address by looking it up before making a purchase.
I love modeler swap meets, or " flea markets" as they're usually called around here. The area hosts 13 per season thst are definite and usually a couple of the traveling shows. If a person is willing to drive an hour or so there are 3 or 4 others, and 5 or 6 within two hours. I never miss the metro area events if I'm able to go, as I enjoy the wide variety of products to be found. Say what you like about online hobby shops, but very few of them are selling untouched Ambroid, Ulrich or Thomas kits. Or Builtup TM cars with Kadees, CV trucks and weathering for $6. And with so many of us old timers leaving the hobby there's been a deluge of bargain rolling stock, locomotives and books. I often wished I needed more equipment on the layout so I could buy more.
And there are dealers at these meets, including those with shops and online presence. You have to pay sales tax to instate dealers but skip shipping costs.
I do buy at traditional hobby shops as well. One local shop offers discounts and I recently bought two bundles of Microengineering flex track, an optivisor, paint, adhesives, a Railway Cyclopedia and a couple mags one Saturday morning. If I need paint, glue, drill bits, mags, one or two turnouts, sheet plastic or scale lumber, etc it doesn't pay me to mail order. Same with a pack or two of decals or a few sections of flex track or a couple bags of ballast. About all I do buy online are books, engines ( not many) cars and trackage but even then it's more often ebay than retailers.
The one thing I don't like is that
swap meets are seasonal. From May until September there's nary a one in town. Sure would be nice to have one in July, like there used to be.
Actually there are many great deals if you look. It is a mystery why more stores don't sell used trains. By 1974, my shop was over 50% used trains. Not only was this lucrative, but it brought in many due to uniqueness, and great prices. These days were the seeds of my starting the Timonium show in 1982.
I understand where you are coming from.
For a period of years, I had stopped going to shows because I thought I could just shop online.
However, I have learned there are still real bargains to be had at shows--stuff gets introduced so fast these days that it's easy to miss something, but then I can find it at a show a couple years later.
While I enjoy going to train shows, I've become a little disappointed as of late.
I run postwar Lionel and have found that the majority of the vendors (my opinion) display HO.
The O stock seems to be over-priced (compared to the internet) and the "under-the-table" quality items are getting harder to locate.
Aside from that, I really enjoy seeing and talking to train people regardless of the gauge.
Wish that the shows would be closer and wish that we had a local hobby shop that didn't focus on airplanes, drones or power boats. Trains, except for the holiday boxed "specials", seem to be on a decline. (Guess it's a sign of the times)
But the fact remains that the "very wholesale" price requires buying case lots - not ones, twos and sixes to stock a mom and pop hobby shop.
And there in lies the problem for most small shops - back in the day - or today......
Lewis K. English, Sr. (who assembled what is today Bowser over many years by purchasing that and more than 18 other companies including Cal Scale and Arbor Models, etc.) always said that his little family-owned train store would have been out of business during the 1970's had they not been able to cut a deal with AHM.
You see, just as in Howard's post above, they learned about the wholesale, very wholesale, and extremely wholesale pricing available to the big box retail stores during the 1970's--but those big box retail stores would not and could not service anything. Lewis English, Sr. managed to cut a deal with AHM whereby he would service any of their trains as long as he could buy AHM trains at the extreme wholesale price then available only to the big box retail store chains. That was the beginning of English's becoming a distributor for other manufacturers' trains--without which they likely would not have survived. They were a mom-and-pop store operation just like many who have passed away since.
At one time during the '80's they were a distributor for many product lines, but those days, too, have mostly passed, as nationally there are only "a few" big distributors remaining (I think they deal with 7).
Others in other topics or on other forums have postulated we are heading toward a day when there will be maybe only one good train store, with an extensive internet/mail order operation ala M.B. Klein or Toy Train Heaven, remaining in each state.
I hope the shows continue, as they are a good way to find yesterday's new in box items.
John Mock
In the early 70's when I began my store (Columbia's Hobby and Craft World), I became frustrated with the basic distributor discount policies and soon learned the difference between wholesale, very wholesale, and extreme wholesale...all predicated on the size of the order. I then began a company called Hobby Buyers Coop with a huge warehouse in a low rent area. The idea was to pool major and staple purchases from the area's then around 50 shops. The savings would have been gigantic, but since I was the new kid on the block and had zero credibility in the field, I could not sell the idea. Eventually companies like Ace hardware, VCA, and so many more took this to the extreme and did quite well. I do not at all take any credit for this, because as a youth I learned Harry Truman's words....."The only thing new in life is the history you have not yet learned."
I also learned that it is not what you can sell it for....it is what you can buy it for which many times is the difference between suceess and washing out in retail.
ATLANTIC CENTRALOne simple point about prices. Before the mid 70's, discounting of model trains, or hobby goods in general, was pretty rare.
That certainly true for many shops but,many gave a 10% discount and one in Columbus back in the 50/60s gave NMRA members a 15% discount simply because he believed in what the NMRA was doing to help the hobby.Then there was AHC ads in MR every month back in the 60s as well as several others..
riogrande5761 Howard Zane It is possible that I may hold a record in visiting hobby shops. During the 70's I drove corporate airplanes for a living. I worked for a company that had business in many states, so on my layovers I'd always visit the local LHS and there were many then. It could have been well over 100 shops or even considerably more, but I was rarely impressed....sometimes rather bewildered at the lack of decent service. At times I'd be the only visitor in the shop. The guy behind the counter had absolutely no interest in me and the prevailing attitute was....."what the hell is he doing here?" Then there were the good train stores and that was my driving force to open my own shop during the period, and of course the train show. Also there were the hundreds of mental notes on what not to do. At a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills. Had I been a possible newbie wandering into a poorly run store, there would be a good chance that I'd never enter the hobby. To date I have not yet heard of a model railroad prospect being turned off from a DECENT train show. Saying for the day..........."You do not stop playing with your trains because you grow old......You grow old because you stop playing with your trains!" HZ You might be surprised how many people have done the same thing as you, and there could easily be someone who has you beat in terms of train shops visited. While I was not nearly as well paid, or had as impressive (to some) as job, I did travel a good deal by car and plane to many other states and cities and also made it point to visit a least 2 or 3 shops at each destination. I expect there have been quite a few train fans who did the same thing! Predictably, I saw mostly the same things; a lot of so so shops, some with proprietors who appeared to hate their lives and made you want to leave as soon as you were done scanning the shelves, and a small percentage which were impressive for one reason or anothers, such as size or much better than average selection. One thing that was pretty consistant was the most prices were near MSRP and I didn't have a pilot's salary so only bought occasionally. Because I was a bit more of an "average" sch muck, and had to live with in my modest means, I tended to look for discount prices to help me afford my toys, so I was never a shop owners best friend, so train shows and mail order have been a very good thing to help me enjoy the hobby better. We've discussed train shows quite a bit here and it does seem we are going over the same ol ground each time, but perhaps there are a few newer folks who find the discussion of more interest. Since my late twenties I've made it a point to attend usually one or more big train shows a year and mostly have found them to be a positive, enjoyable and beneficial experience. There have been a few here and there which are for me, "duds" but I take that as a given it will happen.
Howard Zane It is possible that I may hold a record in visiting hobby shops. During the 70's I drove corporate airplanes for a living. I worked for a company that had business in many states, so on my layovers I'd always visit the local LHS and there were many then. It could have been well over 100 shops or even considerably more, but I was rarely impressed....sometimes rather bewildered at the lack of decent service. At times I'd be the only visitor in the shop. The guy behind the counter had absolutely no interest in me and the prevailing attitute was....."what the hell is he doing here?" Then there were the good train stores and that was my driving force to open my own shop during the period, and of course the train show. Also there were the hundreds of mental notes on what not to do. At a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills. Had I been a possible newbie wandering into a poorly run store, there would be a good chance that I'd never enter the hobby. To date I have not yet heard of a model railroad prospect being turned off from a DECENT train show. Saying for the day..........."You do not stop playing with your trains because you grow old......You grow old because you stop playing with your trains!" HZ
It is possible that I may hold a record in visiting hobby shops. During the 70's I drove corporate airplanes for a living. I worked for a company that had business in many states, so on my layovers I'd always visit the local LHS and there were many then. It could have been well over 100 shops or even considerably more, but I was rarely impressed....sometimes rather bewildered at the lack of decent service. At times I'd be the only visitor in the shop. The guy behind the counter had absolutely no interest in me and the prevailing attitute was....."what the hell is he doing here?"
Then there were the good train stores and that was my driving force to open my own shop during the period, and of course the train show. Also there were the hundreds of mental notes on what not to do.
At a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills. Had I been a possible newbie wandering into a poorly run store, there would be a good chance that I'd never enter the hobby. To date I have not yet heard of a model railroad prospect being turned off from a DECENT train show.
Saying for the day..........."You do not stop playing with your trains because you grow old......You grow old because you stop playing with your trains!"
You might be surprised how many people have done the same thing as you, and there could easily be someone who has you beat in terms of train shops visited. While I was not nearly as well paid, or had as impressive (to some) as job, I did travel a good deal by car and plane to many other states and cities and also made it point to visit a least 2 or 3 shops at each destination. I expect there have been quite a few train fans who did the same thing!
Predictably, I saw mostly the same things; a lot of so so shops, some with proprietors who appeared to hate their lives and made you want to leave as soon as you were done scanning the shelves, and a small percentage which were impressive for one reason or anothers, such as size or much better than average selection. One thing that was pretty consistant was the most prices were near MSRP and I didn't have a pilot's salary so only bought occasionally.
Because I was a bit more of an "average" sch muck, and had to live with in my modest means, I tended to look for discount prices to help me afford my toys, so I was never a shop owners best friend, so train shows and mail order have been a very good thing to help me enjoy the hobby better. We've discussed train shows quite a bit here and it does seem we are going over the same ol ground each time, but perhaps there are a few newer folks who find the discussion of more interest.
Since my late twenties I've made it a point to attend usually one or more big train shows a year and mostly have found them to be a positive, enjoyable and beneficial experience. There have been a few here and there which are for me, "duds" but I take that as a given it will happen.
One simple point about prices. Before the mid 70's, discounting of model trains, or hobby goods in general, was pretty rare. So those of us old enough, and/or active in the hobby at a young enough age, remember a day when virtually all prices were MSRP - nobody expected anything different.
The beginning of discounting was the beginning of the end for many of those small shops, and the beginning of many of those bad attitudes you incountered.
There simply is/was not enough markup for local shops to buy ones and twos from distributors and then sell at 20% off.
The whole discount thing cuts out the distributors and gives you their profit, small shops simply don't have the volume.