Well, this weekend was train show weekend here in Maryland, the Great Scale Model Train Show in Timonium, MD, just north of Baltimore.
I only live about 25 minutes away, but I don't always attend. But, as chance would have it, this weekend I was watching my 4 year old grandson, so off we went.
There is one vender there who specializes in Hot Wheels cars, so the 4 year old was all in.
It seems to me, that the last four or five of these things I have been to seem to show a gradual deline in attendance and activity. I'm not suggesting some "the hobby is dieing" scenerio, more like maybe train shows have run their course?
A decade ago, this thing would have been packed - with venders and customers. Not so this Saturday, the boy and I easily navigated around with his umbrella stroller and scooped up some loot.
For him, a dozen or so Hot wheels, or "awesome cars" as he calls them.
For me, some "new old stock" locomotives at rock bottom prices and the chance to check on the status of my wagon top B&O covered hopper order from Spring Mills Depot.
I guess without the liitle guy I could have found more, but it was good day out with him.
I scored two Spectrum 2-8-0's, new in the box, $60 each, and a WM Proto2000 BL2, only $40.
The place was no where near full from a vender standpoint, a condition I have noticed for several years now.
Dealers consisted of the usual mix, some with new stuff, some with used stuff. The supply of older NOS is finally getter smaller with some of these guys. The amount of new stuff seemed much smaller than past shows - especially locomotives.
So what is the train show situation where you live?
Sheldon
I attended the "Title Town Train Show" in Green Bay on Saturday. It seemed just as crowded as previous shows. There appeared to about as many vendors/layouts/dealers. I don't know if people were buying a lot or not. I've heard reports of TrainFest in Milwaukee and Mad City Train Show in Madison increasing in attendees. I hope other shows around the country are also doing well.
The Green Bay show also had 2 miniature train rides for the kiddies as well as a large table full of LEGOS for them to play with. An ample seating area and reasonably priced concessions also helped.
Timonium's winter show was pretty great this year. I'd actually planned on going to this weekend's, but today's weather probably didn't help. It was magnificent outside.
Hi Sheldon,
I'm part of the problem. I used to travel to a few different shows each year but I'm no longer inclined to do so. I still visit the Barrie/Alandale train show each February. Its about 1/2 hr away.
The Barrie show has seen a significant decline in the number of vendors in the past few years. The number of tables being rented by individuals has gone down, as has the number of hobby shops with booths. All of the hobby shops that used to attend are still in business so obviously they weren't doing enough business to justify the time and expense.
For me, there are a couple of factors that that have caused me to stop attending the shows other than Barrie.
- One is that I am spending most of my hobby money on the internet. The internet offers a vast selection of things that might interest me whereas the train shows offer comparatively little. Both involve some time searching but on the internet I can view literally thousands of items in two or three hours in the comfort of my chair vs spending that same time standing uncomfortably bent over, fighting with my bifocals, and, in the case of the Barrie show, sweating my rear end off because it's in a greenhouse. The odds of me getting what I want on the internet are much better.
- Related to that is the fact that I have already accumulated enough stuff to keep me modeling for a few years. I've got kits, super detailing parts, motors, power drives, scratch building supplies, etc. etc. coming out my ears. I'm still buying items but I'm becoming very choosey about what I'm spending my money on. Also, most of the things that I intend to spend money on likely won't be found at the train shows anyhow. I'm speaking of things like sound decoders for specific engines.
- The final factor for me is that my back is becoming more painful each year. Standing and bending over for long periods is not fun. I now have to use a cane if I'm going to be on my feet for any length of time.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Here in western PA, I've definitely seen a decline in both attendance and the amount/quality of vendors at train shows. The Greenberg show in Monroeville is a shadow of what it was 10 years ago, and the various smaller shows have declined as well. From my point of view it seems like they now consist of two categories: total junk, and new stuff at or near full retail.
Sheldon,What I have notice the better train shows is packed while the so/so shows is lacking in attendance.
IMHO the day of the train show may fade into the sunset since most train show prices can be beaten on line. Some vendors just doesn't get that old yellow box Atlas/Roco Alco S4 isn't worth $85.00 especially since you can buy the newest upgraded release for around $99.00 on line.
I will hit on this very lightly since it doesn't involve all vendors.. I lost count of the vendors that sells at the same shows I attend with the same box worn stock I seen at every show and still at ridiculous prices.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sheldon,Here in Massachusetts, we're sort of spoiled by the Amherst Railway Society's Big Railroad Hobby Show in West Springfield at the end of January. It's arguably the largest model train show in the USA, and sees 20,000+ visitors every year. In the past 10 years, the show has only gotten bigger and bigger by going into a fourth building to the show (first just the front part, then the back).
We also have the NMRA Hub Division's show in December. It's held at the Best Western Royal Plaza Trade Center in Marlborough every year. They fill the display area up every year. It's probably the 2nd largest train show in Mass. The other might be the Greenberg Show in Wilmington, but I've never been to that one.
As for the small local shows, there's the Taunton Show in September, the Brockton/Randolph Show in November, and the Hingham Show in both October and March (we had 1500 people in two days back last month). All are small shows with 50 to 100 dealer tables.
In the past 10 years, we've lost Train Shows in Fall River, Foxboro, and West Barnstable. Fall River lost their school space due to local politics, Foxboro's hosting group all retired, and West Barnstable was too far from anything else.
I've been a show dealer with my local railroad historical group for the past 25 years. I've seen plenty of shows come and go. The major change is that in the olden days, you'd have the "basement bombers"...guys that would make a hobby shop out of their house and only do train shows. The distributers of the era were pretty loose with their rules about who they sold to, so as long as you had a tax ID, a business card, and an address, you could get a wholesale discount. These guys would travel from show to show, selling new stock.
Naturally, brick & mortar retailers screamed bloody murder, and the distributers clamped down. Now, there are few basement-type retailers any more. And you know the hobby shops won't support a local show unless it's a huge show like Springfield or they're members of the organization hosting the show.
So what you have a left are a lot of "junk dealers"...retailers selling used stuff, mostly in the larger scales. They certainly outnumber the new dealers at every small show I go to.
And I haven't even touched on how the internet is bleeding the local train shows dry...
Still, train shows make money for me as a dealer, and for me as a member of a hosting group. I don't make a living at it. Heck, I don't even get paid. But it helps out the non-profits, and for them/us, that's still a good deal.
Paul A. Cutler III
Where I live most of the shows have gone the way of the Dodo.
Going to a train show here this coming up weekend. The only other one near wher i live will be in late june. Hope to find some stuff i want cheap. last one i went to was not to crowded which i liked, i hate crowds.
Modeling on the cheap
Timonium: less dealers than the show 3 or 4 months ago. Attendance was pretty good then, this Sunday was worse than Saturday, which they blamed on the rain. Sunday was beautiful so I guess they blamed it on good weather. I would say there were only 20-30% as many people this show.
One guy offered me his entire display of Walthers turnouts for $120. There were 8 or 10 turnouts and I think they were DCC friendly, including a 3 way. I felt bad for the book guy who has to carry all his stock in and out. The guys that have boxes and and boxes of cars from toy train sets, the brightly colored ones, with broken horn hook couplers....I don't know why they bother.
,
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It seems to me, that the last four or five of these things I have been to seem to show a gradual deline in attendance and activity. I'm not suggesting some "the hobby is dieing" scenerio, more like maybe train shows have run their course?
Rich
Alton Junction
In my country, we have a limited number of commercial train or modelbuilding shows and a greater number more privately organized shows and meets, which I prefer.
In the past, I have attended a number of shows, but not for bargain hunting (there aren´t any) - I go there to see nice layouts and collect good ideas for my own work.
Unfortunately, both number and quality of layouts displayed has gone down.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL It seems to me, that the last four or five of these things I have been to seem to show a gradual deline in attendance and activity. I'm not suggesting some "the hobby is dieing" scenerio, more like maybe train shows have run their course? I know that nobody likes to mention the fact that the hobby is dying so I won't either, but don't you think that dropping attendance in recent years is a sign of something other than nice weather outside? Rich
I know that nobody likes to mention the fact that the hobby is dying so I won't either, but don't you think that dropping attendance in recent years is a sign of something other than nice weather outside?
And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme.
The hobby is dying cry has been heard for as long as I care to remember and its still around. The pallbearers will be called if and when they are needed since there is no need to stand by a empty casket.
This isn't the 80/90s its the computer age where the widest selection of models is at our figure tips. There's no longer a need to drive miles to a show with fingers cross hoping we might find what we need after paying our way in,paying to park and maybe a light snack and still need to pay full or slightly less then MSRP..
Why bother with a train show when your finger tips can do the shopping from the comfort of your home?
BRAKIE Why bother with a train show when your finger tips can do the shopping from the comfort of your home?
Why bother with a train show when you could do the shopping from the comfort of driving your car a few blocks to the local hobby shop?
BRAKIE And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme.
richhotrain BRAKIE Why bother with a train show when your finger tips can do the shopping from the comfort of your home? But that same argument could be made during the heyday of the LHS. Why bother with a train show when you could do the shopping from the comfort of driving your car a few blocks to the local hobby shop? Rich
But that same argument could be made during the heyday of the LHS.
Rich,In the heyday of LHS I seldom attended a train show and why bother when my friend Fred or Billy Bob at the shop has it in stock or could get it for me at discount?
Saturday morning was hobby shop day-that's before and after my railroading career interfered..
As for your second question nope,no more then I believe in Big Foot UFOs,Lake Erie's "Bessie" monster or the Loch Ness monster.
Have to agree internet shopping is killing both the shows and the LHS, and I plead guilty to accelarating this trend. Why wait for a show when I can price shop the online retailers and get what I need without waiting or driving to a show or LHS and praying they have what I want.
Having said that I still attand some of the Greenberg shows in Edison and have been to the National Train Show and the WGH shows. Each time we go though I find myself spending less and less because I already have all the stuff I need for the SIW ecept for a very specialized items like caboose industry ground throws which I ordered from Amazon) I like looking at the layouts My wife looks at the toys and knik-knacks, and talking with fellow hobbyists. It is a fun 2 hours. Attendance is very seasonal with the holiday show being crowded and the others less so.
Joe Staten Island West
In Chantilly, VA, Greenburg used to visit 2x/year until Walmart took over part of the space. Greenburg seemed smaller than before, but you need to know fair market value for things. I did quite well at those shows and agree with many that knowing the market is invaluable.
Thanks for the update on Timonium. I'm glad I didn't make the drive. Vendors who are trying to sell old cars (read Tyco horn-hook couplers and its ilk) are wasting time.
Regardless of the show, going there is a great way for meeting people and exchanging ideas. No question that the internet causes this hobby to evolve. I like not only the ability to quickly purchase stuff online, but also have access to various HO swaps which often have a greater selection than Craigslist.
I like trains shows and though I don't do the same kind of shopping I used to do, I still enjoy just the fun of going and seeing what's there. Especially when there are excellent operating layouts.
Alvie
My grandson and I have attended most ot the train shows in NE Ohio over the past few years and noticed a decline in the number and quality of the vendors and a decided decline in attendance.
It is really a shame as we counted on several of the better vendors for good stuff and bargain prices.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
BRVRRMy grandson and I have attended most ot the train shows in NE Ohio over the past few years and noticed a decline in the number and quality of the vendors and a decided decline in attendance.
I favor these Ohio shows:Bucyrus,Berea,Dalton and Marion. The Berea and the Dalton shows is the biggest I attend.
Like Mark B (above) I too went to the Titletown train show in Green Bay WI (both days since I had other reasons for being in the area). Attendance seemed good, somewhat better on Saturday which seems pretty typical for two day shows. I do think there were fewer vendors this year and some familiar ones were missing, such as Kalmbach. In at least one case (Don Manlick decals) I know the reason is due to the owner's death this last year. In other cases it might be the cost of each table (which I was told was $80) might have gotten too high.
Unlike Trainfest in Milwaukee, Titletown does not have manufacturers per se (a few "basement" manufacturers of trees or scenery materials to the contrary) and Titletown has a lot of swap meet style dealers in used stuff which Trainfest does not have. Apart from that it is the usual mix of display layouts, hobby shops, historical societies, and some guys (including groups, perhaps clubs) who seem to just buy a table to sell off their personal surplus but are not really swap meet dealers per se.
A few trends in the hobby were worth noting. The move to DCC has caused DC power packs and other electrical gear to be sold used, often at very attractive prices for stuff that just a few years ago was top-of-the-line. Similarly I think a lot of guys who have DCC have just decided to finally dump their DC locomotives rather than convert them themselves or pay to have someone else do it for them. Some pretty impressive bargains were out there as a result for BLue Box, Stewart, and earlier P2K diesels.
The move to digital magazine subscriptions and things like the MR all-access pass has caused boxes of free or nearly free MRs and RMCs to be available. This includes even recent issues from 2015. I was surprised by this.
For whatever reason there seemed to be alot of assembled structure kits available for sale at Titletown. They do not look plucked from a layout either: I think there are still lots of guys who like to build kits but their layouts are full to bursting with structures already. Conversely I saw fewer structure kits available for sale than in some prior years, particularly the older AHM, IHC, Revell, Model Power, Con-Cor and similar makes. I don't think I saw anyone selling Rix or Smalltown USA or Pikestuff or City Classics kits. In past years those were plentiful
I was looking for Jordan vehicle kits since it appears the firm is out of business with the recent death of its owner -- very few on sale.
I was on a rather unusual quest this year - I am putting together a two part clinic on weathering and need lots of cars that I can weather to demonstrate a point, and then hand out to the room to look at. It would be foolish to use really nice cars for that purpose, so those much maligned train-set quality cars, stacked on each other in tops of boxes, and often with busted trucks or couplers, are exactly what I was looking for. I did not have much competition looking through the "Tyco ward" I can tell you! And because the N scale types always complain my clinics are too HO oriented, I was also looking for N scale junk cars. Actually the quality of N scale junk seems higher than HO because all it takes for an N car to be sold for a buck or two is for it to have the old Rapido couplers.
I also bought some train set quality track in N (also very cheap) because the cars I pass around will be mounted/bolted on lengths of track fastened to wood bases. That way, with luck my sacrificial lamb cars might survive to be used again for future presentations of this clinic.
At least one technique in my clinic makes almost no sense to demonstrate on stage using HO (much less N) scale cars because it is so small a thing. Fortunately one vendor was selling Lionel O-27 car bodies for a buck. That should enable me to show what I do, then pass around HO and N cars where people can examine what I am talking about in closer and better detail.
All in all I was pleased with my two visits to the Titletown train show, but I might have felt differently if I was not shopping for that particular clinic. Next weekend is the train show in Davenport Iowa which is a long drive from Milwaukee WI but is usually worth it.
Dave Nelson
I usually go to the Chantilly Va greenberg show. I think the attendance is slightly smaller. I would like to see the train shows add some variety to the show with different things for kids to do like have a hands on modeling project, different indoor rides, train table they could actually run, maybe a train race table where they could race each outher or like a drag race. I would also like to see more manufactures there with there latest product. It would be wonderful if the NMRA would set up a booth. Just recently I joined the N&W Historical society because they had a booth there that I could talk to a live person and discuss there society. I found out that I could obtain access to N&W info that would help me better my modeling. There is only so much electronics can do. At some point meeting and talking to a real person is very helpful.
Larry - WHAT you dont believe in UFOs ???? Havent you watched "Men in black" which explains a lot about what one sees in the USPS offices !
Sheldon--
I was at Timonium on Sunday, too, with a friend who normally works in a train store on Saturday, so it was the only day we could attend.
Howard Zane sold his rights to the show to others several shows ago, and perhaps their advertising is not or has not been quite as effective as when Howard and his cronies were running the show.
Also, Howard still had tables at the show and was offering some insanely good deals on selected HO brass models. For example, a 1977 PFM DRGW Class L-131 2-8-8-2 (this is the version with the backhead detail and the improved drive with can motor) with a decent custom paint job on it went for less than $800 (I have no idea what the final sale price was, but the listed price was only $795 and Howard was verbally discounting aggressively). I would have bought it myself, but didn't have the cash.
One dealer was offering 50% off MSRP on Bowser diesels. I don't know how he could possibly do that kind of discount...
Though there were indeed many deals to be had on HO plastic, the best deals at this particular show were on Howard's HO brass models. Simply stated, nobody can beat some of Howard's prices. Some of the models he has would be ideal for those who actually want to operate the models on a layout and get reliable performance, and for folks who want engines not available from BLI or others.
It seemed there was a huge amount of BLI merchandise available for sale, much more than I noticed in the past.
John Mock
kasskaboose I'm glad I didn't make the drive.
Me too. More stuff for the rest of us
Yes, the show did seem lightly attended. But I sort of judge these things by what I'm able to find rather than the number of attendees.
My one big purchase was a BLMA SF beer car for $29. I think list for these is about $40, so not too shabby.
On the other hand, from one vendor I picked up an Athearn 65' mill gon, a Walthers 65' mill gon kit, a Walthers 54' GSC flat kit, and three P2K gon kits. Total for all that was $30.
I also picked up several P2K beam loads for $2 each.
So I think I did okay.
richhotrain BRAKIE And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme. Larry, something tells me that you don't believe in climate change either. Rich
Larry, something tells me that you don't believe in climate change either.
The climate is changing, just like the hobby, but human activity is not causing climate change........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain BRAKIE And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme. Larry, something tells me that you don't believe in climate change either. Rich The climate is changing, just like the hobby, but human activity is not causing climate change........
I was at the Timonium show on Sunday.
I agree that the show is not what it was before the great Recession. That along with high gas costs really hurt the show. And it has never recovered (even with gas down a little). But there are always fewer dealers/attendees for spring than the winter or fall show.
One thing I think that hurt the spring show is having it at the end of April. It used to be the end of March / 1st weekend April (and the winter show was in January). I think many people are into the hobby in the winter and not in late spring or summer.
But all said. I enjoyed the show. There were some bargains. I picked up a "new" old S-Helper 3 car set for less than half of what MTH sells the cars for now. My son who (at age 42) is now into Lionel trains found a couple of things.
Enjoy
Paul
At a mid-March swap meet in Portland OR, organized by a local club:
There was a one-year change in venue this year, due to issues at the armory used for the past several years. Wet weather, which usually helps attendance.
Attendance has been declining slightly over the past two or three years. All the tables were sold but a couple of no-shows accounted for maybe 8 empty tables out of 125+.
Family groups -- mom, dad & kids -- were noticeably absent. This meet does not have operating layouts or clinics because the organizers have been able to sell out table spaces. The age spread of shoppers was tilted toward 50+, but there were significant numbers of buyers in their 20s, 30s and 40.
Fewer hobby stores took part, and fewer traveling commercial dealers. Most participants were from no more than 200 miles away, most within 100.
Dealers reported OK sales, nothing exceptional. The best-moving items were older items that aren't always economical to sell via the internet.
For some reason, fewer dealers tried to pack up early and leave before the 3 pm closing. Often this can be a problem.
I think you're right about the date, Paul. Plus, unless I missed it being mentioned, having the show four times a year really dilutes the attendance. No one show is "special" like the annual shows (Trainfest, Amherst, etc.).
Another thing that could be affecting some shows is how limited production runs are now. Years back some larger companies would close out merchandise to dealers in their area. When they brought the items to train shows it would be like a feeding frenzy. Now you very rarely see those kinds of deals. Of course, many dealers were unhappy with that practice, so it just depends on which side of the table you were on.
Lastly, I know some of the Greenberg shows in Western PA had less dealers because the promoters changed the dates and they conflicted with shows many dealers were already committed to.
So between the graying of the hobby, folks passing away, and the economy, you have all sorts of other issues affecting show attendance too.
Jim