Recenty I was in a bull session about where model trains are the most prevelant.
One person mentioned that Europe has seven times the model railroad activity than we have here. Then Austraila, Japan and Sweden. Does anyone have close to what the actual figures are?
I do suspect that off shore model railroad activities are stronger, but several times as large??? When I was an active brass dealer 10 years back, almost 90% of my sales of anything over $1000 went overseas....but that was brass....not mainstream.
HZ
I don't honestly know. However, I've noticed that a lot of the "how to" videos on youtube are from folks in the UK and Ausralia. I'm also amazed at how many overseas modelers are modeling US railroads. Ken
I can only guesstimate, as there are no figures available, but I think that Germany and UK are the countries with the highest number of people who are into model railroading. Some years ago, the number of folks being a member in a model railroading club in Germany was said to be above 6 million out of a country with a population of slightly less than 80 million people.
Ken - do your search in German, Dutch and French and you´d be amazed about the results!
Perhaps Europe has more members given that trains are more commonly seen and used in cities. London, Paris, and other places depend on trains and I bet that is a large draw for people.
It would be interesting to read how many subscriptions MR fills with various European countries.
This makes sense in Europe, since the train is regular transportation for many of those folks. It's still a part of daily life.
Out here, I found out my roommate had never ridden the commuter Metra, and lived in the Chicago area all his life. I was floored. For some of us, I guess trains are a freight nuisance that keeps us from getting from place to place in our cars.
I suspect we'll soon see an upswing in the MRR culture here in the US, with all the Arduino stuff going on and the ne-wish "maker" culture, and it becoming more computerized.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
This may be slightly , but each year we have a US Model Railroading Convention in Germany. The following video shows scenes from the layouts on display at last year´s convention:
China rail has 2.3 billion passenger trips a year. That's where most of the model trains are made and WeHonest is a local train store.
I vote China.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Many communities here in the U.S. want the railroads to be "out of sight" screened all from public view as though they were some kind of "urban blight". It's small wonder that interest in the U.S. has waned, as today it is becoming more difficult to even see the trains in urban areas. I offer as Exhibit A: the plethora of expensive screening vegetation planted around the former Reading Rutherford Yard at Harrisburg, PA. You can't see the trains from the adjacent roadway network anymore, at least not well.
John Mock
PRR8259 Many communities here in the U.S. want the railroads to be "out of sight" screened all from public view as though they were some kind of "urban blight". It's small wonder that interest in the U.S. has waned, as today it is becoming more difficult to even see the trains in urban areas. I offer as Exhibit A: the plethora of expensive screening vegetation planted around the former Reading Rutherford Yard at Harrisburg, PA. You can't see the trains from the adjacent roadway network anymore, at least not well.
Trains are dirty, loud, huge machines, and the areas they inhabit are the same.
Pretty much the reasons we love them are the reasons other people hate them, and that's unlikely to change. Even my town has the train station tucked behind the main street drag, and the track mostly hidden by foliage on either side.
BigDaddy China rail has 2.3 billion passenger trips a year. That's where most of the model trains are made and WeHonest is a local train store. I vote China.
fieryturboTrains are dirty, loud, huge machines, and the areas they inhabit are the same.
In Europe, they are clean, slick and incredibly fast and take to the right side of the tracks in town!
Sir MadogI don´t think that model railroading is a wide-spread hobby in the People´s Rupublic of China. They make model trains to sell them!
I agree with Sir Madog: but because hobbies and leisure activities are a sign of realitive affluence and free time. Excessive work hours cuts into other activities.
Dave
If it's true that there are proportionally more Europeans in the hobby, then I suspect there are two reasons:
First, as mentioned, we tend to tuck our railroads away, out of sight, and we eliminate railroad grade crossings wherever possible. People just don't have the exposure that they did in the past.
Second, most Americans don't see the railroad as something relevant to their lives. They have become conditioned to ignore Amtrak and other rail services as a viable transportation mode, even when they are actually their most sensible options. When they do ride trains, they often innocently ask incredibly naive questions because the milieu is so foreign to them. In Europe and other parts of the world, typical citizens accept railroads as a logical and sensible means of transport.
If it's invisible and irrelevant to your experience, there's not much likelihood that it will become your hobby.
Tom
I would guess per capita the U.K. has the most railfans ("railway enthusiats") and modellers, probably also has the greatest numbers of old engines that have been preserved - often still being used. Apparently on the Fort William to Mallaig line British Rail (or whatever they call it now) still runs restored steam engines on the train in the summer.
If not U.K., probably Germany / Austria? LGB, Marklin, ESU, Preiser, Kibri etc. Don't think there'd be that many manufacturers there if there wasn't a lot of demand.
Walthers carries a lot of German made HO stuff, you don't see much U.K. stuff because it's OO not HO so not that usefull over here.
In UK, the number of key players in the market is small - it´s basically Bachmann and Hornby, surrounded by a great number of cottage businesses catering for what´s is called the "serious" model railroader. Not to forget Peco for track.
In Germany, the number of players has gone down as companies went belly-up in the past years. You have the Marklin/Trix/LGB group, Fleischmann/Roco, Bemo (German and Swiss narrow gauge), Tillig (TT scale, HOm narrow gauge), Piko, Preiser, Faller, Viessmann/Kibri/Vollmer and also a number of smaller businesses, like ESU, Uhlenbrock, Lenz (the inventor of DCC) and lots of others.
UK is much more of a builder´s market, whereas Germany is more RTR.
Both UK and Germany have regular (daily) steam services, the line from Fort William to Mallaig in Scotland is just one of many in both countries. British Rail is no more - it has been split up into many privatized entities. The Mallaig train is operated by Westcoast Rail - see here
Hard to say without hard numbers but,I suspect Germany would be among the top five.
I would say America would be among the top five just by judging the number of railroad videos on you tube and the way manufacturers keep cranking out new products plus we've seen several new companies over the past 10 years.
All to sadly our hobby has been a closest hobby and over the past few years that closet has grown rather large. Town A can have a very nice club and only a select few may know about it because the club never holds a public open house,has a membership drive or sponsors a train show.
Both NMRA and printed magazines may not be a a measuring tool like years ago because many no longer buy magazines or find the need to join the NMRA..
Then how about the thousands of hidden modelers that may have a 4x8' or large layout for relaxation but,doesn't consider them selves model railroaders? Those are the types you see or hear at toy shops,train shows or places like Hobbyland that reportedly buying a new car or engine for "the boy" or "Grandson" while in all truth they're buying it for theirself..
Even among modelers they are willing to talk fishing,hunting etc with follow workers not even knowing the person they are speaking to is a model railroader and vis versa.
Then how many of those young faces at trackside has models?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sir Madog In UK, the number of key players in the market is small - it´s basically Bachmann and Hornby, surrounded by a great number of cottage businesses catering for what´s is called the "serious" model railroader. Not to forget Peco for track.
My wife is a Brit and Dec 2014 we went over to her home town of South Shields near Newcastle to work on her sons immigration as well as a several day trip down to London and back up to Newcastle (Newcastle Brown Ale fame). While there we visited one of MR forums posters, Jon Grant (in Sunderland) and also the Sunderland A1 model RR club. The members really impressed me with how serious they were about the hobby despite lack of home layout space - many of them had made trips to the US and railfanned. The club had a large space in the upper level of a wearhouse and multiple layouts housed there. Most were US type trains actually.
I visited a fairl small store in a small town of South Shields which had an entire long wall dedicated to magazines and counted over 35 different train related magazines. Here you'd be lucky to find a fifth of that.
Over time I've come to realize that the UK has a much higher percentage of train fans per capita than the US. I've been to Germany on for extended stays some years back, as long as a couple months, and don't recall getting that impression there although I wasn't exposed to the hobby there. I am aware of some large displays through forum links but not sure if that represents the general population or just some huge attractions.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
When I was in Austria, I was quite delighted to find that most of the larger cities had model railway clubs. I visited the club in Salzburg (very hospitable) whose layout represented the Salzach/Tauern area of the Alps, and the club in Innsbruck (again, very hospitable) which modeled the spectacular Arlberg Railway, Austria's only major east-west Alpine railway. Each club had quite a few members, and of all ages. The hobby appears to be quite healthy in the land of Schubert and Mahler. Lord knows that the railways themselves are! Forty trains a day is almost considered a branch line, lol!
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
OK, I have to call bs:
There is a double standard in America.
Our trucks are big, dirty, fast and loud and can take up as much as 40% of the traffic volume on Interstate highways, which I actually design for a living (working on new interchanges on I-95 at Philadelphia). If you've ever stood right along even just rural I-81 during heavy truck hours, as I have, it's generally noisier than standing along a train track anywhere--even on Horseshoe Curve with the brake squeal.
And a certain segment of the population loves their monster truck rallies!
But excepting in some residential areas, we don't screen all our highways from view.
Why the double standard?
And if I had a dime for every fine Pennsylvanian I met who believes our railroads are dying and on their last legs, I would be a very rich man indeed.
In Europe, where the train service can be outstanding, methinks the trains are just more "cool" to the average citizen. So that might explain the popularity?
John
PRR8259 OK, I have to call bs: There is a double standard in America. Our trucks are big, dirty, fast and loud and can take up as much as 40% of the traffic volume on Interstate highways, which I actually design for a living (working on new interchanges on I-95 at Philadelphia). If you've ever stood right along even just rural I-81 during heavy truck hours, as I have, it's generally noisier than standing along a train track anywhere--even on Horseshoe Curve with the brake squeal. And a certain segment of the population loves their monster truck rallies! But excepting in some residential areas, we don't screen all our highways from view. Why the double standard? And if I had a dime for every fine Pennsylvanian I met who believes our railroads are dying and on their last legs, I would be a very rich man indeed. In Europe, where the train service can be outstanding, methinks the trains are just more "cool" to the average citizen. So that might explain the popularity? John
A few thoughts from the son of a life long trucking industry manager.
My father was a model railroader, and started me in the hobby by age 10......he worked in the trucking industry all his life - including working for the Southern Railroad piggyback service in the early 60's.
No matter the public knowledge or perception in the US, there is a steady shift from trucks to intermodal rail for long distance freight.
This could have happened 60 years ago, but the overly regulatory government stood in the way of piggyback - while at the same time giving the trucking industry larger/heavier rigs every time they asked.
53' trailers? Over 80,000 lbs, they have lost their minds.
BUT, total deregulation a few decades back has started a steady gradual shift to intermodal.
Emissions - well I'm not an expert on diesel truck or locomotive emissions, but todays cars only put out 1% of the harmful emissions of the cars from the 60's - we have all done our part to "save the planet".
Not that it needs saving from us - example, the 1980 eruption of Mt St Helens produced more products of combustion than every car that has ever existed - how can global warming be our fault? The climate is simply changing - with us, or without us, just like it has done in the past.
Anyway, had the government gotten out of the way of piggyback, right away, back in 1953, I would suggest that nearly every truck on the road today would be "local delivery", or very time sensitive, and it would be a lot less of them.
The unintended consequences of bad public policy..........
One other thought - passenger rail transport, not counting inner city mass transit, died in this country the day Henry Ford sold the first Model T. America is a land of open spaces and train tracks can't be built everywhere.
People in other countries may settle for living in small houses in cities, but I don't see that model ever taking over in this country. Heck, when I retire, I'm hoping to move father away from the crowded "rural suburbs" where I live now - surely not moving into a "city" - the right really small town......maybe.
To Howard's question, I would agree/guess that per capita, the UK and Germany have the most model railroaders. The biggest irony of that however is their general lack of space for modeling given their housing norms.
Happy to be living in the lush, green Mid Atlantic of the US, the cradle of American Railroading, and land of big basements, big houses, and big layouts - or my case big out buildings - my layout is on the second floor of my 32' x 40' detached garage.......even if less of my neighbors know or care about trains or model trains.
OK, I've used up my quota of forum time for a while, see ya,
Sheldon
twhiteAustria's only major east-west Alpine railway
Tom - Austria is not big enough for two major lines!
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe biggest irony of that however is their general lack of space for modeling given their housing norms.
The term "norm" might not be applicable and should be replaced with "cost".
Trains are much more a part of every day life in Europe. People ride trains because trains are fast, efficient and cheap to ride. A return ticket from my place to Hamburg costs the same as parking my car does, but the train is much faster and more reliable.
A side note - the first UK "toy trains" came from Germany. Basset-Lowke had them manufactured by Bing and Bub in Nuremberg.
Thanks for information. It is kind of what I suspected. My guess is that young folks are not standing in lines at trains stores anymore...not so much that electronic whatevers have captured their interests, but they just don't see trains as us old timers did decades back. It is kind of hard to model or render something that is not seen often....or in many cases, just not seen or experienced.
Myself and I'm sure many of you once commuted by train. I did often and I loved every minute of riding the rails. These were my seeds, and as an artist often will paint what inspired him or her....so it is with my model railroad and others.
Europe, besides being well endowed with foriegners, is extremely well endowed with trains...both for commute and long distance. During the early 60's I went to grad school both in London and Paris....and spent much of my time watching trains...then still in steam. Not much has changed except for power and unbelievable efficiency....and costs are proportionally much less than here in the states.
Maybe someday in the near future, some person here with vision will say....maybe we should build a railroad....at least so new generations will have something to model.
I envy those of you in the US who have access to Amtrak. When I checked your regular fares I was really surprised to see that they were less than half of what we would pay in Canada for traveling roughtly the same distance.
When I realized that Amtrak features many discounts in comparison to what Via Rail offers it becomes that much more evident that it is far cheaper for most Canadians traveling long distances to use air travel, more competition, cheaper fares.
In fact one company on the West Coast promotes luxury rail travel and has found a market exists, mainly tourists, who want a memorable trip through the Rocky Mountains and are willing to pay a premium for that experience.
That is not the typical Canadian though, passenger rail travel is quite expensive and will remain that way.
wjstix I would guess per capita the U.K. has the most railfans ("railway enthusiats") and modellers, probably also has the greatest numbers of old engines that have been preserved - often still being used. Apparently on the Fort William to Mallaig line British Rail (or whatever they call it now) still runs restored steam engines on the train in the summer.
Actually, in peak season, there are 2 daily steam hauled trains between Fort William and Maillag.
IIRC, there are 5 dedicated model railway publications in the UK and a <censored> load of full size railway publications. Just go into a WH Smith the next time you hit London.
Yours truly is currently in Bilbao, Spain. Will be picking up rental car tomorrow, eventually ending up in Madrid. From Madrid to Barcelona, we will take the AVE (Spanish TGV equivalent). 3 hours station to station. Should be fun. Tickets (1st class) were just under $100 each.
Andre
Sir Madog ATLANTIC CENTRAL The biggest irony of that however is their general lack of space for modeling given their housing norms. The term "norm" might not be applicable and should be replaced with "cost". Trains are much more a part of every day life in Europe. People ride trains because trains are fast, efficient and cheap to ride. A return ticket from my place to Hamburg costs the same as parking my car does, but the train is much faster and more reliable. A side note - the first UK "toy trains" came from Germany. Basset-Lowke had them manufactured by Bing and Bub in Nuremberg.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The biggest irony of that however is their general lack of space for modeling given their housing norms.
Yes I understand, trains are effective there because people live close together.
In the area where I live, the "average" home is 3000 sq ft and sits on an acre of land. Even those who live in apartments or town homes have yards and open space in their developments. Walking to a logical train stop would require a network of trackage that would be simply too expensive, take up too much land, cost too much to maintain, and require too many "transfers" to get most people where they need to go. Then there is issue of carrying "stuff", people have to bring home groceries - we don't shop every day, we shop for a weeks worth of food at a time.
Kids have sports practice, people go out to eat, to shop, because our world is no more than two stories high and spread out, trains simply will not work.
Parking is free out here in the suburbs - every business has a large parking lot.
Look up Bel Air, Maryland on bing or Google Earth and look around........then tell me how you would "install" mass transit.
Today I will drive 25 miles to my current construction project, past farms, through several small villages, and lots of "suburban" homes on large lots. No mass transit could be built to meet that need. Before theday is out I will likely drive 75-100 miles - in my big gas guzzling FORD F250 extended cab pickup with its 6.2 liter V8 engine - which I need to carry construction supplies, and which doubles as my personal vehicle. On many days I must also pick up or drop off my grandchildren at from/to school.
We do have commuter trains that take people into the big city - Baltimore - but most people have to drive to the train stations and park there - they don't live close enough to that rail line to walk........
Trains simply will not work here any better than they already do.
Howard ZaneMy guess is that young folks are not standing in lines at trains stores anymore...not so much that electronic whatevers have captured their interests, but they just don't see trains as us old timers did decades back. It is kind of hard to model or render something that is not seen often....or in many cases, just not seen or experienced.
Nobody stands in line at train stores any more that was a old school precomuter era thing now it faster,easier and cheaper to order on line by simply using your smart phone.
There are thousands of young modelers in the hobby just like it was when we was young and recall most of us when we was teenagers didn't advertise we had model trains.
As far as today's railroads they are still exciting-look at the modern layouts and railfan videos on you tube.
Ever feel the ground viberate when a brace of SD80MACs or GE ES40DCs start a 12,000' tonnage train? Its enough to get your blood pumping.
Today young guns are going for DCC/Sound and highly detailed freight cars.They have no interest in steam but,can tell a SD90MAC from a SD80MAC some things most old head modelers can't do.I know I can't.
"Trans simple will not work here."
Amazing statement. The busiest passenger rail corridor outside of the NEC is the LA-San Diego corridor, which actually extends up to San Luis Obispo. Metro-Link in SoCal extends 75 miles to the Palmdale/Lancaster area and 60 miles to San Bernardino. Ridership is growing and trains can run pretty full. I''ve ridden Metro-Link and had trouble finding a seat. Amtrak California's ridership is pretty high and growing. In the Bay Area, CalTrain trains run with a high ridership.
Ever ridden a train anywhere in this country? I've actually ridden Amtrak from the SF Bay Area to Boston, in coach no less. As far as Europe goes, it ain't that small. I've ridden from Vienna to Paris by train (about the distance from SFO to Salt Lake City) and Barcelona to Paris (about 650 miles). As I mentioned in an earlier post, we will be taking the AVE from Madrid to Barcelona. Distance is roughly comparable to Los Angeles from San Jose and will be a good comparison for California's upcoming high speed service.
I've driven in the UK and on the Continent as well as taking trains, so I have some actual basis for comparison. Picking up rental car tomorrow and heading to Segovia. Should be fun. Last time I was in Spain was 1989.
PS Have also made coast to coast road trips.
The young kids today involved in trains today don't care at all for the steam era. They only see diesels today and that is what they like.
Do they like seeing my big boys run, NO. They want to see today's diesels and the point is today's diesels, not from the 50's. They want the gevo's, SD70aces, etc.n
On the ops question, I don't care what country has the most railroaders, I only know I like trains, model and real.
I may add that I have seen a slight movment towards historical modeling by younger "steam challenged" modelers. In my three decades of co-promoting a rather huge mid-Atlantic train show, actually I have seen many younger modelers, be it purchasing or involved with modular groups displaying at the show. Some have chosen the Civil War ear, and many the transitional phase between steam and diesel. At many tourist railroads operating steam, I see the younger folks chasing the locomotive (actually my generation just can run fast enough anymore).
To these newer millenials, sure a steam loco is a dinasour, but what kid on this planet does not like dinasours???
There still is hope!!