FORUM CLINIC: Designing for satisfying operations

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nhguy21

Off-Topic, but Josh, is that the Walther Paper Mill building on the left?

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nhguy21

Now, for my questions

1. How far between levels ???
2. I am using 2'x4' modules made from 1x3's and 2x4 sheets of 3/8 ply with 3/8 foam on top. How do I support the upper level ??? I am thinking of brackets.
3. Can the upper level be 24" deep ???

I am considering moving the existing layout to the top level and building the new part where the existing one is. I checked the height, the existing layout is about waist high (3'6" or so)

Thanks for the help,
and I love the clinics.

Josh in New Hampshire

1) at least 12" probably more like 16"+
2) brackets should work fine
3) see 1) . the upper deck shouldn't be so deep that it blocks your view of the lower deck . consider making 2 modules without track or scenery and attaching them to the wall as planned as a test . can you see most of the lower deck from a normal operating distance , can you reach track near the back of both decks for derailments , coupling and uncoupling ?

don't forget that the higher the upper deck the less reach you will have because you won't be able to lean over the layout like you can now . your third picture looks like it would be difficult to reach the far side of the turntable if you raised the layout to 4'6" or higher

[chateauricher]

bump

[GDRMCo]

Hey Joe i got a couple of Q's for you.
Q1/ On my new layout i have calculated that to model the 10km in N scale i will need 198'. I have figured out that to get that amount of mainline into a u shaped layout in a 13x26' room I will have to make the layout triple decked. Knowing this and wanting to run 200 car trains of 70t ore hoppers are my calculations correct or am I off my face and need to go back to school more?
Q2/ How long are 70t ore hoppers?
Q3/I have a plan but could you help me refine it?
Mitchell

[jfugate]

Mitchell:

Your basic computations are correct. However, triple decked is really asking for benchwork and construction complexities. If you are willing to put a peninsula down the middle of the room, you can do 198' of main as a double decker, which is much more manageable.

Depending on how much headroom you have in the room, you might even be able to do a mushroom configuration and the layout won't even appear double decked.

I believe 70 ton cars are usually 50 feet, which would be just under 4" long in N scale (over the couplers).

As to getting help on a track plan, go ahead and send me an image of your plan. If it's okay with you, I'd like to post it on this thread and discuss it for all to see, sort of a learn to design by example using your plan and subsequent refinements as training for everyone.

If you are game, Mitchell, I think everyone will really learn a lot from discussing your design here on this forum thread. [swg]

[GDRMCo]

Oh I'm game. The trackplan i have done so far is just a quick sketch of what i could possibly have, but learning from a master will get the best out of my layout i believe.
Mitchell

[GDRMCo]

Thats my quick job trackplan. I want to be able to run a single track main or double track line with 200 car trains. If i can do it with a single track main and passing sidings that'll be good.

[jfugate]

Mitchell:

Help me out a bit ... how do you get into the room, like where's the door? Any windows, closet or other items in the room that need to be accounted for?

From your plan, it looks like the door is at the middle bottom ... is that right?

And what's the ceiling height in the room? Standard 8 foot, or something else?

=============================================================

The first thing you need to do is figure out how you access the space, and its basic dimensions. Don't forget to think in three dimensions (ceiling height), especially if you want to do a multi-deck design.

[GDRMCo]

Well Joe, the layout is in a 13x26' room and has no windows. It has a large garage door at the bottom of the plan. That is how i plan on accessing the layout. I have been thinking about a removeable section so i dont have to go throught the garage door way. The room is around 8-9' tall so there's plenty of clearence above my head, i'm 6'. There are no other objects that need to be accounted for.

[Anonymous]

I designed my layout to fit the space in one area in my basement. The era to model in. The scale is ho, and what trackage I can fit on. I chose point to point. I tried the Right Track software by Atlas and found it was a hassle to work with. I went to a template and hand drawn what I wanted on my layout and had more fun with it. As I laid out the track, etc, had to make a few adjustments. I plan to expand my layout and if the right type of mrr cad software comes out, then I will go that route.

[jfugate]

Mitchell:

Thanks, for the room info. Sounds like the layout will be in a garage, then. Do you need to leave a bit of room along the entire bottom wall for the garage door and the door hardware?

Regarding the ore cars, I now realize what you were asking ... ore cars (not hoppers, as I was thinking before) are pretty short ... probably only 2" long in N scale. That means a train of 200 ore cars will be about 100" long, or just over 8 feet in length. But you will need lots of power to pull a model train that long. What basic time period are you thinking? Modern, 1950s (steam-to-diesel transition) or what?

Okay, to critique your original plan:
In N scale, you don't need shelves as wide as you show. Your shelves as shown are over 3 feet wide. Anything over 30 inches will require laying on the shelf and/or a step stool to reach the back. Even in the larger scales (HO, O), you should keep your layout shelf to no more than 24" wide, and in N scale you can go down to 12" wide and it will still look great.

More comments in another post.

[Pruitt]

If I may jump in here - where does the helix on the right hand side of the top level go?

Tracing your plan from the lower level, it appears to run like this -

Mine on left to Helix on right - climb to middle level. Middle level right to helix on left - climb to top level. Top level on left to yard on right to helix on right -climb / descend to....?

[GDRMCo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Mitchell:

Thanks, for the room info. Sounds like the layout will be in a garage, then. Do you need to leave a bit of room along the entire bottom wall for the garage door and the door hardware?

I do need to leave space along the bottom because the layout will only be built in half of the garage.

QUOTE:
Regarding the ore cars, I now realize what you were asking ... ore cars (not hoppers, as I was thinking before) are pretty short ... probably only 2" long in N scale. That means a train of 200 ore cars will be about 100" long, or just over 8 feet in length. But you will need lots of power to pull a model train that long. What basic time period are you thinking? Modern, 1950s (steam-to-diesel transition) or what?

Sorry if I created a misunderstanding but i was reffering to the small ore cars. I plan on running modern power as the layout will be set in 2005 ie now.

QUOTE:
Okay, to critique your original plan:
In N scale, you don't need shelves as wide as you show. Your shelves as shown are over 3 feet wide. Anything over 30 inches will require laying on the shelf and/or a step stool to reach the back. Even in the larger scales (HO, O), you should keep your layout shelf to no more than 24" wide, and in N scale you can go down to 12" wide and it will still look great.

More comments in another post.

Thanks for the help and yah my shelfs are 1m wide. i drew that plan in 1:50 scale and i just kept making it 1m wide. I made the mine area as wide as possible to accomodate a large loop. The helixs are connected so trains may go from level to level.
Mitchell

[jfugate]

Mitchell:

Thanks for the clarification on the entrance to the layout area at the bottom of your drawings.

Yes, 1 meter is too wide for a layout shelf that you can reach from only one side, especially in N scale. You will only need the full meter width at turnback loops or an area where you put a helix. You don't need the full meter everywhere.

Also, how tall are you? It matters because it will help set the deck heights on a multideck layout.

I notice in your track plans you have an industry at one end of the layout and a yard at the other end of the layout, and no industries or other towns, etc. in between. It's likely the layout will wear thin operationally pretty quick unless you add some more points of interest along the way. It's fine to focus on an ore operation as the main theme, but adding some secondary themes to the layout will make it more lasting in its operational interest.

I'd like to take my hand at designing something to fit your space to illustrate another option that I think will give you what you are after. Then I'll explain why I designed things the way I did.

More in another post ...

[GDRMCo]

I'm 6' at the moment but i'll be around 6'5" by the time the layout gets started. I've been talking with a friend of mine who models a freelance operation in NSW and says that the LMC is a mining road (i told him that plus the name gives it away, Legg Mining Company) and should stay a mining road. I know mining ops make millions a year and so I've focused my attention on designing a layout with a major mine and the junction yard where the LMC connects with my old mining road, the GDRMCo.
I've been thinking of adding another town and a few more mines to make operations a bit more interesting. I'd like to see your ideas and if I like them enough (no doubt i will) i'll use the design. I'd like to be able to run my dream 200 car ore trains with 5 loco's, 3 at the head and 2 mid train, over a scale 10km main line with a continuous 1-2% grade.
If anyone else has any suggestions i'd like to hear from you.
Mitchell

[Anonymous]

I believe ya would be betta if ya put the mine on an peninsular as suggested. Also, there are not facilities to store empties when they come down the mountain. Have you considered placing the mine on top level, most companies run empties up and full down, that's normally where the source is, up in the mountains. Also, your line could at lest have the basics of passenger travel, depending how many services you want them to have in the town.
Another issue is with no storage facilities on low level is that these sort of railroads also ship most of their specialised equipment, such as their massive trucks, conveyer, ect., in on heavy weight flat cars, and these need to be keep available at both ends for emergencies. Also, instead of a helix at the end to the top level, an reversing loop would be better in my opinion. And where is the ore going to? Maybe you could model a port at the other end of the line to the mine, or have the train vani***o hidden staging yard where you can empty the wagons to send the back as empties. If you would put a 2 track staging yard after the mine, you could run a intermodal, or a local going somewhere else, that way you don't have to do anything but run trains up and down your mountain?

[GDRMCo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dannydd

I believe ya would be betta if ya put the mine on an peninsular as suggested. Also, there are not facilities to store empties when they come down the mountain. Have you considered placing the mine on top level, most companies run empties up and full down, that's normally where the source is, up in the mountains. Also, your line could at lest have the basics of passenger travel, depending how many services you want them to have in the town.
Another issue is with no storage facilities on low level is that these sort of railroads also ship most of their specialised equipment, such as their massive trucks, conveyer, ect., in on heavy weight flat cars, and these need to be keep available at both ends for emergencies. Also, instead of a helix at the end to the top level, an reversing loop would be better in my opinion. And where is the ore going to? Maybe you could model a port at the other end of the line to the mine, or have the train vani***o hidden staging yard where you can empty the wagons to send the back as empties. If you would put a 2 track staging yard after the mine, you could run a intermodal, or a local going somewhere else, that way you don't have to do anything but run trains up and down your mountain?

Well to answer to that........I know that i'll need to have staging tracks and the other stuff but as you may not have read that plan is only a draft. It wont get built. Just a design study of sorts.
Mitchell

[Anonymous]

[#oops] sorry, hope you can use the idea's anyway DD

[GDRMCo]

I'll find a way.
Mitchell

[GDRMCo]

hey Joe are you going to elaborate any further?
Mitchell

[jfugate]

Yes ... give me a bit of time. Last night I had an emergency meeting on a project dropped on me so I was unavailable all evening.

Maybe this evening ... ?

[GDRMCo]

sure
Mitchell

[GDRMCo]

So Joe have you come up with a sort of plan I could use?
Mitchell

[GDRMCo]

bump

[jfugate]

Mitchell:

Finally got some time to work on a rough plan ... so far I have just the lower deck on the plan:


Click here for a large image: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/images/post_photos/track_plan/lowerdeck.jpg

The upper deck at "A" will be coming in another post.

I'm using a double-deck mushroom track plan and some turnback loops to get you near equivalent mileage without using a helix anywhere. I consider a helix to be an awful construct and best a necessary evil.

A train will disappear into a helix for minutes at a time, and since you can't scenic them realistically, they will be hidden trackage. While the train is in the bowels of your benchwork on the helix, you will crank up the throttle every little bit, just to be sure everything's okay.

The train will finally emerge at the top of the helix going near warp speed! [swg]

So if I can eliminate a helix, in a plan, I will. This plan makes use of the middle of your room, and has these design guidelines: 3 foot aisles (generous) and 1 foot layout shelves (quite adequate for N scale). I used a minimum radius of 20", which is a generous curve in N scale.

I also aimed for optimum viewing height -- with N scale, the higher the better. I set the base level at 50 inches. High narrow benchwork makes the trains look great, is easier to scenic, and easier to work with on a mushroom layout configuration.

You walk under the high bridge (78" from the floor) that crosses the aisle to the upper deck, and you nod-under the benchwork (65" from the floor) to get "inside" the mushroom and step up onto the raised floor and view/operate trains on the upper deck. If you set the starting level higher than 50" (I would recommend not going any higher than 55" for a yard switching area, however), then all the key nodunder and walkunder levels would provide even more clearance.

So the trains rack up miles out in the open where you can see them and enjoy them. You are getting the equivalent of your two lower decks of running distance in my one lower deck plan here.

I added a "diamond yard" arranged so that all the yard tracks are the same length. The end of the run at the yard has a reverse loop so you can turn an entire train quickly should you wi***o. I've added a switching lead long enough to pull an entire yard track while switching and not foul the main.

I added a passing siding about halfway along the run on the lower deck so you can have a train going up and a train going down if you wish. I also flipped your configuration to have the empties going up and loads coming down, which should be more prototypical. I limited the grade to 2.5%, which in my experience is enough grade to make the train work and to make helper operations interesting, but not so much grade as to dramatically limit loco pulling power.

You could add another siding and some industries if you want to make the layout more interesting to operate.

So that's about it for now. The upper deck is coming next ... give me a day or two to work it into my schedule and post it.

[NZRMac]

Joe Have you been looking over my shoulder? I may have a new room coming ( depends on the price at auction ) it's 13' X 25 and was fiddling around with XtrkCad today. The plan is very similar, mostly in my head so far!!

Ken.

[GDRMCo]

Hey Joe could you possibly work in a couple of industries into the trackplan?
Mitchell

[jfugate]

Okay, here's the upper deck mushroomed piece.


Click here for a larger image:
http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/images/post_photos/track_plan/upperdeck.jpg

You walk under the nod under, step up on a 6" step, then step up onto the 12" raised floor inside the mushroom. If you aren't sure what a mushroom is, here's an image from my web site:


(click to enlarge)

On the upper deck plan, once you are on the 12" raised floor, you follow the trains around the inner loop all the rest of the way up to the mine complex. The mine complex has a ballon track loop to make it easy to turn trains for the return trip back down the mountain.

I've added a raised platform in front of the mine complex (another 6" on top of the raised floor to make it 18" off the room floor), making the 80" elevation of the mine look more like 62". All the turnouts needed to switch the complex are close to the front of the layout shelf so they are easy to reach for operation and maintenance. With a standard 8 foot ceiling, the 18" raised floor leaves about 6'-6" of clearance -- which gives you an inch over your head if you are 6'-5".

And notice, you had 3 loops around the room with two helixes, I have NO helixes and am approaching 2.5 trips around the room. With this plan you get to watch the trains make the entire trip in the open (with one small cosmetic tunnel to add scenic interest) and not inside the bowels of the benchwork rolling off the miles on the tiers of a helix. Plus I would say building mushroom benchwork is easier than building 2-3 helixes!

If you would like to know more about how to construct a mushroom, see my video volume 2 on layout design and construction: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains-set1-vol2b.php , or see the January and February 1997 issues of MR where I discuss mushroom layout design and construction in depth.

By the way, this particular mushroom design configuration is called a "moat mushroom" because it resembles a castle surrounded by a moat. But I think it is one of the most effective of all the mushroom benchwork configurations and it works *ideal* if you want to have a layout that's based around a significant helper grade.

The mushroom gives you a multi-decked layout that allows you to cram more railroad into the space, but it *doesn't look* double-decked because the opposite-facing decks mean you only see one deck at a time. And the raised floor allows you to keep the levels at a similar relative height, which removes a major objection I have to ordinary double-deck designs.

On ordinary multideck designs, neither of the two decks is at a good height. The lower deck is typically too low, and the upper deck is typically too high. And the two decks facing the same direction creates a lot of visual clutter, which somewhat ruins the look of the layout to me.

As to adding industries, we can add industry spurs any place you like ... just tell me how many you want and what kind of industries you had in mind and I'll add them.

[GDRMCo]

The plans look great Joe. As for the industries I was thinking maybe a lumber mill, ore refinery on the first level and maybe an interchange with one of my other freelance RR's.
Mitchell

[jfugate]

Mitchell:

I'll work on the design a bit more, then, and post the revisions.