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Diesel with 3 front and 3 rear axles derails at turnout

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  • Member since
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Posted by zstripe on Sunday, March 6, 2016 6:22 AM

gdelmoro
Turnouts are Atlas snap switch #8? Double Curve installed on a 24" curve. Not a wye.

I suspect this might also be part of Your problem... with a longer wheel base truck, like a three axle...when entering/exiting a curve where a turnout is, the part of the truck that leading/trailing is still coming out or going into the curve is forcing the wheels to lift out of the rails. A four axle won't normally do that, but a six axle's center wheel would be under pressure to want to follow the curve. If You were able to add a short straight length of track before/after the points going into/out of the curve, that would not happen.

Something to also look at, above...can't tell from Your pic'.

Good Luck! Big Smile

Frank

EDIT: One way to check for that, is to follow Richhotrain's advice and try to slide said engine into/out of turnout/curve and see if You can do that without a bind.....a bind and or restriction will indicate what I tried to explain above.

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Posted by gdelmoro on Sunday, March 6, 2016 6:09 AM

Gary

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Posted by zstripe on Saturday, March 5, 2016 7:55 PM

ricktrains4824
Set the loco on a hard, smooth surface, like a mirror, and try to slip a price of note paper underneath each wheel, if it slides under without your having to lift the locomotive up, you have a bent axle. That will cause derailments sporadically, and almost always on a turnout.

Usually not a bent axle, but a warped/twisted truck or even a warped or twisted frame....trucks not seated firmly on the bolster's, a wire/driveline preventing horizontal/vertical/lateral movement of the truck, causing one wheel to pick the guard rail. Wheel sets not seated in bearings properly, bottom cover not on properly. You have to be more meticulous when checking all above......looks aren't going to work!

Good Luck! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, March 5, 2016 6:34 PM

Gary you need to change your privacy settings.  Go to Photo Bucket and double click on the lock next to “Your Bucket” and select “Public”.
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 3:36 PM

Gary

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Posted by cowman on Saturday, March 5, 2016 1:25 PM

As mentioned, derailments can be frustrating, but you already know that.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the alignment of your wheels on each axle.  Your wheels could all be in guage on each axle but if they are not all spaced the same from the end of all three axles, one set of wheels might be slightly the left or right of the others so that they don't follow each other properly.

Just a thought.

Good luck,

Richard

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Posted by ricktrains4824 on Saturday, March 5, 2016 1:24 PM

Bent axle? 

Set the loco on a hard, smooth surface, like a mirror, and try to slip a price of note paper underneath each wheel, if it slides under without your having to lift the locomotive up, you have a bent axle. That will cause derailments sporadically, and almost always on a turnout.

My other thought, is what is the curve radii there? If a 4-8-2 couldn't handle it, it might be too tight for a six-axle diesel as well.... 

Ricky W.

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Posted by Soo Line fan on Saturday, March 5, 2016 12:54 PM

The photo is being compressed for whatever reason.

Work the trucks back and forth with your hands and check for any resistance or drag.

Jim

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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 12:49 PM

The problem had occurred in the past.  I found that the track was not level rail to rail.  Once I leveled it I didn't have ant further problems running Atlas RS-1 or 2's but did when I ran my Mantua 4-8-2.  Stopped running that Tongue Tied. I got a BLI 2-8-2 Mikado for christmas and fell in love with it's operation and sound on a DC layout.  So I went out and bought another BLI (don't tell my wife) diesel this time.  That's when the problem started to occur on a consistent basis.  I'll post more pics this afternoon.

Gary

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, March 5, 2016 12:15 PM

I blew up your picture X4 but the resolution goes to pot quickly.  It looks like the turnout has been there for some time, did this problem just crop up recently?  If it’s just one locomotive I would check it first before the track or turnout.
 
Nice looking layout!
 
 
Edit:
 
As mentioned above six wheel diesel trucks really don’t like turnouts, I never could get one of my Proto 2000 PA1s to do well through turnouts, after several returns to Walthers and two new trucks it went by way of eBay and that fixed my problem.  
 
 
Mel
 
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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:55 AM

Well I'll be darned!  As artwork I thought it was pretty good. Big Smile

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:51 AM

I took it with my iPhone.  It's real.  I'll take another close up.

Gary

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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:49 AM

THANKS Mel. 

Gary

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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:46 AM

Surely not. That looks like a photo of a painting.  If there is real track in there, you must have used a diffusion filter. 

Some people might not want to log into Dropbox if they don't have an account.

What I am seeing is a painting of a double track main curving clockwise toward a town.  The 1st turnout on the outer track is curved, and it is followed by another that I can't really see, but from the tracks appearing afterwards, it must be there. 

I think the track gurus are going to need a close up picture of the turnouts in question.

Photobucket is more forum friendly for posting pics.  Not the most user friendly but an account is free.  See Otte's sticky post. 

 

 

Henry

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:45 AM

gdelmoro

Try this https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0l281o92xhe3hs/File%20Mar%2005%2C%2012%2016%2007%20PM.jpeg?dl=0 

 

Link worked, here’s his picture
 
 
 
Mel
 
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Posted by dstarr on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:38 AM

Hmm.  Not unusual to have derailments at or near turnouts.  Since two of your locomotives make it thru and only one derails the problem is PROBABLY with the locomotive.  BTW a GP9 is a four axle locomotive, whereas you say the derailing locomotive is six axles.  Presumably the locomotive is something other than a GP9?  At any rate, six axle diesels are more troublesome than four axle diesels on turnouts and curves due to the longer wheelbase.  Things to check, lowflying stuff on the locomotive catching on the rails.  Insufficient truck swing, the truckSleep are catching on something.  Too deep flanges hitting spikes. spile heads, or bits of crud stuck inbetween the guard rails and the stock rails.  A bit of crud stuck to a wheel tread somewhere.  Flangeways not deep enough to clear the flanges.  I can remember deepening flangeways with a hacksaw blade on one troublesome turnout.  Rough spots one the track.  Turnout points need filing to feel smooth to the touch.  Kinks in the track or rail joiners not properly seated.  Insufficient sideplay in the locomotive wheels, a six axle locomotive needs some sideplay in the middle axle.  

Get some extra light on the turnout and run the problem locomotive thru it slowly, both directions, with the turnout set both ways.  Look for something wrong. 

   Good luck.  Model railroading is fun.  :-)

 

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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:14 AM

Try this https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0l281o92xhe3hs/File%20Mar%2005%2C%2012%2016%2007%20PM.jpeg?dl=0 

Gary

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Posted by dknelson on Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:12 AM

Trouble-shooting this kind of issue is hard enough when you are right there on the scene.  Trying to be helpful from a distance -- nearly impossible.  It would be interesting to know if this 6 axle locomotive is the most challenging piece of rolling stock our friend has.  Would a six axle passenger car or flat car also derail for example?  He mentions other rolling stock that has no problems but frankly there can be so much "slop" built into some engines and cars that they are nearly derailment proof.  This particular engine might suffer just because it has fewer compromises with scale tolerances.

I have not seen one in a long time but guys used to make track troubleshooting cars out of clear plexiglass with trucks mounted on them - push or pull the thing through the troublesome spot and look from above to see if there were hitches or hesitations even if no derailment could at least pinpoint the trouble spot, a spot that in turn could derail other stuff.  Some guys deliberately used the worst tracking trucks they could find for theirs, just to make it a torture test for their track and roadbed.

It might be the trackwork including a minute kink leading into the turnout that one truck forgives but the other does not.  Or a minute bump in the roadbed.  It might be that the engine is underweighted over that particular truck that derails -- does putting some lead on the roof over that truck help, or does pushing down with your finger help?  

Another cause of problems, and not easy to solve, is lack of side play (and verticle play for that matter) in the wheels and axles.  It is after all asking alot for a six axle truck to go through even generous model railroad curves.  Something may be binding including electric pickup (not that familiar with Paragon / BLI).

Dave Nelson

 

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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 10:56 AM

Looks like photo didn't load.

Gary

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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 10:54 AM

Yes it's at least 20 yrs old.   Curved turnouts are on left mainline in photo

Gary

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Posted by superbe on Saturday, March 5, 2016 10:54 AM

I once had a similar situation and the frustration and found the truck was derailing before it got to the turnout.

Worth checking it out if you haven't already.

Good luck

Bob

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, March 5, 2016 10:47 AM

He might have an older Atlas 274 or 275 curved turnouts.  I had one Proto 2000 PA that didn’t like the Atlas 275 no matter what I did to remedy the problem.
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by gdelmoro on Saturday, March 5, 2016 10:39 AM

WOW Thanks for all their posts.  I'll try to answer al the questions here.

I saw that YouTube video and did that but it didn't make a difference.

Yes sorry SD9

When I run the NMRA gage flat side over the tracks everything is flat.

My first thought was it is the locomotive also and I checked the wheel guage and they were all perfect. The track is in gage also.

I need to check the trucks I guess to see if they are tracking correctly or if there is a burr on the king post but I don't know how to do that.

Turnouts are Atlas snap switch #8? Double Curve installed on a 24" curve. Not a wye.

 

Gary

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, March 5, 2016 10:30 AM

I wonder if he is referring to a Peco Code 100 double curve turnout, or as most of us might call it, a curved turnout.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, March 5, 2016 10:04 AM

jrbernier
I am sorta concerned about that 'double curve' turnout - are you describing a 'wye' turnout?

I was thinking it might be an S-curve, where the two diverging routes from two turnouts are attached to each other.  These can be difficult for longer cars and engines to navigate, because the front half of the engine body is turning one way while the back half is turning the other.  If these are Snap-Switches with very tight curves, the engine simply might not be able to take such turns.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by jrbernier on Saturday, March 5, 2016 9:48 AM
I suspect that this is a BLI SD9 locomotive. What size are the Atlas turnouts? Snap-Switch turnouts have a continuous curve through them. Customline turnouts diverge at an angle through the frog area(like a real turnout).
That SD9 may have a clearance issue and one of the trucks is hanging up. A friend had a motor to truck wire that was the issue.
I am sorta concerned about that 'double curve' turnout - are you describing a 'wye' turnout?

Jim

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, March 5, 2016 9:17 AM

It can also bee that the truck does not track correctly, that is it will not turn far enough to track. It could be a bur on the king post, could be a truck detail catching on a body detail, could be a wire inside of the carbody catching the truck.

Not all derailments can be charged to the track department.

The various departments on realroads fight tooth and nail with each other to proove that it was not their department that caused the derailment. Usually when a train is on the ground, some degree of fault lies in several departments.

The flangeway of the Atlas Track could be too narrow (or too wide), but a truck with sufficient movement can laugh it off, while one constrained by a burr cannot.

ROAR

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Posted by picker6 on Saturday, March 5, 2016 9:12 AM
I sure that helps answer the question.
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, March 5, 2016 9:10 AM

That is not unusual for one locomotive to derail on a turnout when all of the other locomotives on the layout do not derail on that same turnout. It is a clear indication that the problem is on the locomotive rather than the turnout. It could be that one of the wheelsets is not perfectly in gauge. Try running it through the turnout at the slowest speed to see where it is derailing. Look for the offending wheelset. Or, better yet, push it manually through the turnout and look for the offending wheelset. Does it only derail in forward motion or also in reverse?

Rich

Alton Junction

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