Look I programed for bluetooth. I know the capatibility problems. There are various protocols, versions, and support levels with every bluetooth device. There is a limited communication rate, limited range, and limit to the number of concurrent connections. And yes there are pairing issues. Every once in a while I still have to reboot my **** car because it starts fudging up the bluetooth connection and that's a 2013 model. And that's not the only device that has issues. I have problems with my moto 360 android watch which runs on bluetooth and have to factory reset it sometimes. A cursory investigation suggest a reset on the connection handshake for whatever reason.And again, bluetooth doesn't solve a darn thing that JRMI throttle app doesn't already do and BETTER with open source and no additional cost.Those simple $3 to $4.50 includes no protection circuitry what so ever. And I know what batteries you are talking about. They use them as a basis for no name generic chinese knock off replacement laptop batteries that aren't worth a hoot. No thermal interfaces to shut the **** things off when they start to overheat. No protection when they start to draw too much current, or use too much. And that has to be custom tailored for each engine. And even in HO scale, space is a premium, even in Steam tenders. Weight is the name of the game, and the more you take out to make space for batteries, the worse it gets.If you want to run a couple engines (each with it's own charging station) in a session for < 2 hours at a time, go ahead. Batteries might suit your purpose. But I may look at roundhouse stall #24 and go, "I want to run my mike today" and not worry about if it's charged. It's not like swapping out remote batteries.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Keep alives are like "nice to have" not "required" for anything. On my OWN layouts I've never had a need, none of my locos ever stalls, I guess a combination of burnishing the rail and making sure I have plenty of power feeds means reliable power ont he rails. I've yet to need to power any frogs even. That will change as I switch to Peco Electrofrog because there is such a long 'dead' area, but on my previous Atlas layouts I've not had to power frogs to keep sound from stuttering and never had an issue with non-sound.
It costs more than $3 for a set of li-po batteries and the electronics needed to boost the voltage to 12V or so. Cheap Chinese ones that you might be getting at those prices I will guarantee have NO cell protection circuitry and I wouldn't want them inside my house. I'd be afraid of using them OUTSIDE for a plane or drone or something. CHEAP Li-Po batteries are dangerous, good ones are not. Never cheap out, especially for indoor use - Samsung found that out the hard way.
Sure, they may have only been aroudn for a year, but they did start development on this well before that. Plus the entire communications system is stock off the shelf stuff as far as BTLE chipsets, and they only had to develop half of the system as the phone is the other half. The NWSL and Tam Valley direct radio systems just transmit standard NMRA DCC protocol, so they are completely compatible with any sort of existing or future DCC decoder you want to use, sound or non sound.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Give them a break, they are not even a year old. The Bluetooth they use have no pairing issues and no limitations on connections (the later is from their own work on the system). Lets just deal with the cons. Still needs power: as dose everything. Software non support: this could happen but doubt this would hurt anyone (I still run Train Engineer from 30 years ago, long past any suport and the company folded long ago). Limited # connection: not so that they have found. Pairing: no issues noted. As far as batteries. Take a large amount of space: true but only for the smaller scales and that is changing just as fast as everything else. Limited run times: I don't know about you but I never run the same engine for more than two hours straight. Long charge time: this is true but only an issue with very few and this is changing. They get hot: this is not the same as the RC stuff, batteries are self protected and you act as if Lithium will not be replaced, really surprised it has not already but then with as fast as things are moving, no one wants to start building only to have something far better in a few years show up. Fire risk: so is your cell phone etc. Expencive: ah sorry you can't afford the $3 to $4.50 for the proper set up of three batteries (real cost, without markup or other costs like conecting them (solder). Now don't get me wrong this change is just begining and people who where there for the start of DCC can tell you of the problems then, keep alives are less than 10 years old (though some cruder versions were home made before and these cost alot).
Please list advantages of Blue Rail/Dead rail VERSUSA properly gleemed track with JMRI panel pro and throttle pro, (or a good DC setup if you don't care about sound.)For every advantage you list, I can name 2 or 3 downsides. I'm not trying to poo poo advancement. But it does seem someone is over blowing the benefits given the problems they create.bluerail pro: Gets you in the door cheap with good control. Wireless cab control from cell phoneCons: still requires power source. Software stops being supported with time/OS updates. limited range of bluetooth. Limitation on number of connections. Pairing issues (can be buggy)Batteries Pro: You never have to wire another piece of track again for power.Con: They take up a large amount of space, have limited run time, long charge times, they get hot when discharged quickly, they are a fire risk, and wear out over time. Plus they are expensive.I hardly call these the be all end all end to DC or DCC. They have too many issues. They serve a niche market. It does address certain people's needs. But lets me honest, they are a small limited market.
rrebell The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster. What most people don't comprehend is that the real computer is man's minds, being connected we are like one giant computer, think about it.
The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster. What most people don't comprehend is that the real computer is man's minds, being connected we are like one giant computer, think about it.
I think Nostradamus said the same thing...or was it Ghandi?
Well done!
- Douglas
But in this hobby change has always been slow. The very nature of building even a medium sized layout is such that once people invest their time and money in a system, they are not likely to change on a whim.
And I suspect, as my personal experiance has been, that there are:
1-More medium to large layouts out there then some on here want to admit.
2-Few people with such layouts take them down and rebuild them more than once or twice in a lifetime.
3-Be it DCC or DC, if they like their current control setup, change is simply out of the question.
So that leaves new people, those forced to rebuild because of a move, and a few dabblers who just like to play with everything that is new to give any of these other systems a chance.
Remember, DCC, now 25 years old, just being seen as the majority contol system in HO and N, and still not universal by any means.
Yes, sometimes in life we have no choice but to advance with change, other times we can just continue to march to our own drum.
I don't have a smart phone, never have, I can't even type on those little screens. I still have a flip phone and now I have a tablet, which I don't really like, I just need it for my work.
Sheldon
MisterBeasley I would hate to invest in something to control my trains, knowing that forces beyond my control are already working to make part of the system obsolete.
I would hate to invest in something to control my trains, knowing that forces beyond my control are already working to make part of the system obsolete.
rrebell The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster.
The way things are today, we all will be dragged into new tecnoligy kicking and screaming till the end but it will engulf us anyway. Things are moving faster and faster and if we reach an end point, we invent something new so we can go even faster.
Then perhaps it's time to slo-o-o-w down and enjoy things - e.g. operating your layout on DC or DCC - without the need to continually look at a screen to tell me how fast I'm going.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I am certainly an old geezer when it comes to smart phones - I just don´t like them, even though I have one, only used as a phone. A friend of mine uses either his smart phone or his tablet to operate his trains. While it is OK if you just start your trains and let them run, switching operation proves to be a nuisance. For this particular purpose he hooks up his old Roco "Lokmaus" which he can operate single handed´. Try that with a smart phone!
I have alway wondered what will happen when someone rings you up while switching the local ....
ATLANTIC CENTRALI for one would never "choose" to operate a model train with a touch screen device.
I agree 100% with this.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy car has a built in garage door opener, who needs an app? Especially since I don't have a smart phone.
Yeah, really. Why would I want to pull out my phone and find the app when I could just reach up and hit the button on my mirror?
Again - been there for 6 years at least. Through JMRI, you can use an Android or iOS smartphone as a throttle, and not just on NCE or Digitrax, but on ANY DCC system.
I'm jumping into this thread cause I feeel like it
i think sooner or later all DCC manufacturers will offer some sort of app either Bluetooth or Wi Fi for using your smartphone as a thottle. I don't need it but if NCE offers it I might bite. Would be convenient to cut the cord so to speak but buying a dedicated thottle is not worthwhile to me.
Joe Staten Island West
rrinker How is it easier to do dead rail than any of the other direct radio solutions like Ring, Stanton, or Tam Valley? --Randy
How is it easier to do dead rail than any of the other direct radio solutions like Ring, Stanton, or Tam Valley?
THe real reason for the item is the bluetooth, and there are already dedicated thottles out there. The other thing in it makes it easy to do dead rail, much easier than before where you cobbled it together and hope it works. Other companys have already jumped on their bandwagon offering bluetooth control but controling a DCC decoder. Bluerail trains is soposed to offer that soon also.
That's sort of the point. It's not. I have gadgets like smartphones. I've tried using them to run trains. It's fun, for the first few minutes. Then it's just much less convenient than the actual throttle with a knob.
My car is one of the last few made without a big video screen (since the nanny state declared all cars must have backup cameras so now they all have screens, even without a nav system) and at this point I guess I will keep it forever because I don't want or need that junk in my car. It's distracting and much harder to operate than a simple 2 knobs on the radio. My phone works fine for nav - but if I'm going to a place I've never been before, I bring it up on my computer before I ever leave the house so I have some idea of where I'm going, rather than just hop in the car and hope the GPS finds it.
My garage door opens with a dedicated opener. They didn't build that stuff in pickup triucks in 1993 so I have one fo the openers in my truck, but it's built in to my car so I just programmed the car and keep the extra opener in the house. I do have a automation app for stuff on my phone, and it could automatically open and close my garage door, except the precision of the positioning part of it is such that it could open my garage door when I am more than a block away on the street behind my house, so it's a non-starter. If it were more accurate, it would be great - my house is second in from a stop sign, so it would trigger the door to go up when I'm at the stop sign and I could pull right in. CLosing though - I just don;t trust that stuff. Maybe I'm paranoid, since there's nothign ever happenign in my neighborhood, but when I leave in the morning, I shut the door and wait for it to close before leaving the driveway. Remember with all the safety gear on the door, all someone has to do is step in front of the beam before the door completely closes and it will go back up. Just hid in the shrub around the side and if I would drive away before the door was all the way down it would be easy to intercept the door and I wouldn't even see. No, I did not just tell you how to break into my house because I wait for the door to be all the way down before leaving.
There's plenty of cool things I DO do with an app and a smartphone. Running my trains, or opening my garage door, are not some of them. Should I ever get around to it, maybe I would use my idea of a BT throttle that conencts not directly to the loco but to a smartphone using the WiThrottle app. Phone stays in your pocket after selecting a loco, knob controls the speed and so forth. Cheaper than any system's dedicated throttle, and works with any DCC system supported by JMRI (basically, all common ones on the market). With a real knob and buttons, not a touch screen.
DoughlessI've discovered that to use it strictly as a phone, it stinks.
DoughlessI also have no use to take my train throttle out of the house, nor my garage door opener to my layout room.
DoughlessFrankly, I don't undertsand the appeal, and I suspect many others don't, but things seem to catch on anyway even if they don't make a lot of sense to me.
I wholeheartedly agree!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL yougottawanta I think at some point in the future DCC systems will be replaced with apps or something of that nature. In my industry garage door openers are already be replaced with apps where the doors can be opened and closed from your phone. Well there is no doubt it will become an option that many may use. But I suspect deticated throttles with hard knobs/buttons are not going away any time soon. I for one would never "choose" to operate a model train with a touch screen device. My car has a built in garage door opener, who needs an app? Especially since I don't have a smart phone. Sheldon
yougottawanta I think at some point in the future DCC systems will be replaced with apps or something of that nature. In my industry garage door openers are already be replaced with apps where the doors can be opened and closed from your phone.
I think at some point in the future DCC systems will be replaced with apps or something of that nature. In my industry garage door openers are already be replaced with apps where the doors can be opened and closed from your phone.
Well there is no doubt it will become an option that many may use. But I suspect deticated throttles with hard knobs/buttons are not going away any time soon.
I for one would never "choose" to operate a model train with a touch screen device.
My car has a built in garage door opener, who needs an app? Especially since I don't have a smart phone.
I was hoping someone could explain why it is more convenient to do what seems to be nearly everything with an app and a smart phone over the old tech of a dedicated device. A step by step analysis of how and why it is more convenient would be helpful.
I just got a smart phone because my employer basically required it for communication. I've discovered that to use it strictly as a phone, it stinks.
But as a portable television, its not bad. Of course, I have no use for a portable television that fits in my pocket (barely). I don't watch that much video.
I also have no reason to take my train throttle out of the house, nor my garage door opener to my layout room.
Frankly, I don't undertsand the appeal, and I suspect many others don't, but things seem to catch on anyway even if they don't make a lot of sense to me.
Mike KieranThere's areason why I still have my GPS. I tried using the app on my phone and it was going good until I got a phone call during a crucial time on the highway when I was looking for an off ramp. Imagine getting a phone call while backing a local freight onto a spur and destoying scenery, buildings, cars, and possibly an expensive locomotive.
__________________________________________________________________
Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI can't stand the Digitrax throttle, for a long list of reasons - and I have likely 100 hours using them on friends layouts....... Sheldon
Sheldon,The only Digitrax throttle I ever liked was the UT-2 since it was easy to use. The Tech 6 handheld throttle is a nice throttle and easy to master.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
rrinker You misread. His locos DO run together with DCC> With DC, I doubt they wouldm with such vastly different gear ratios. Stick a decoder in each of those steamers and they will run fine together on a DCC layout. If they work fine together on a DC layout, they will work fine on a DCC layout without a bunch of tweaking. --Randy
You misread. His locos DO run together with DCC> With DC, I doubt they wouldm with such vastly different gear ratios.
Stick a decoder in each of those steamers and they will run fine together on a DCC layout. If they work fine together on a DC layout, they will work fine on a DCC layout without a bunch of tweaking.
No Randy I understood that they would not run together in DC, but yet my various brands of steam locos do - just amazing.
In fact, I will not buy any more new Proto diesels because of the new gear ratios.
But, there are plenty of Blue Box Proto locos still out there for sale, and I have most of what I want.....
I model that time when diesels still ran mostly as sets, and all the steam I have seems to double head fine with anything that would be remotely logical - so I'm good without consisting or speed matching.
Paul, I could find a lot of DCC modelers with large layouts who would agrue the level of infrastructure their layouts need. But again, it is sometimes over done. Factors like sound, lots of multi loco lashups, and how many locos you leave "idling" are also important factors.
And, when I considered DCC the first time 20 plus years ago, decoders were considerably more expensive then they are now.
We have been over the featues and benifits of DCC enough, some people need consisting and/or speed matching, some don't.
Your PA's wou't run with your DL-109's, yet on my DC layout a Proto 2-8-8-2, Spectrum 2-10-2, and a Spectrum 2-8-0 are currently pulling a 50 car freight train, and running fine together - go figure.
And still, the main things that keeps me out of DCC are decoder costs and poor user interface designs.
I can't stand the Digitrax throttle, for a long list of reasons - and I have likely 100 hours using them on friends layouts.......
Sheldon,Let me put it this way; saying that DCC requires all these things you mentioned (breakers, boosters, etc.) is like saying that a DC layout control system like yours needs 100-amp relays. Will it work? Yep; but a tad overkill.
I think you're overestimating the cost of decoders. The $20 is pretty standard; for an 8-pin plug, add $3.00: http://www.digitrax.com/products/mobile-decoders/dh126ps/ For most board-replacement decoders, it's only $27: http://www.digitrax.com/products/mobile-decoders/dh165a0/ I know you're an steam-era guy, so it's not like you need ditchlights (IOW, extra functions). I don't know where you're getting the "double" cost from?
And yes, MU'ing does add more button pushing; however, the advantage is that engines can actually run together when they wouldn't in DC. Just try running a PA-1 with a DL-109 (something the NH did every day in the 1950's) on straight DC, both made by LL-Proto in HO. Top speed of the DL model is around 140 smph; the PA will coast like few other locos I've ever seen. With DCC, I can make these two very different running locos run together perfectly. With DC...not so much.
You don't always have to MU, BTW: with Digitrax, you can run your own pusher independantly of the head end. Twin throttles = twin control.
How did my other operators run? They brought their own throttles. We're all members of the same club, which also uses Digitrax. Also, the Zephyr is a throttle all by itself that was used in a yard situation. Generally, I had two freight yard operators, two local freight operators, and 1 passenger operator, but sometimes it was just two of us. With DCC, it can vary easily. Want more operators? Plug in another throttle. With DC, you have to get out the soldering iron.
If you really want to add more money to my inexpensive DCC system, then by all means do so. Say another three wireless DT400R throttles at $200 ea. My $575 system would have been $1175. I didn't actually spend that, and my layout didn't actually require it. But it could accomodate it.
BRAKIE Sir Madog If my ailing and failing memory is not playing tricks on m again, I think that´s exactly what I said 100+ posts ago. You more then likely did and I forgot. My Short term memory is poor but,my long term seems to be holding up quite well. I can even remember the day and extact time I got married.
Sir Madog If my ailing and failing memory is not playing tricks on m again, I think that´s exactly what I said 100+ posts ago.
You more then likely did and I forgot. My Short term memory is poor but,my long term seems to be holding up quite well. I can even remember the day and extact time I got married.
Sir MadogIf my ailing and failing memory is not playing tricks on m again, I think that´s exactly what I said 100+ posts ago.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Wireless throttles, system can handle up to 99 if I remember right. Yes, but you can only control two at a time with one Ditgarax throttle. 5 operators implies 5 trains moving at once. Five operatos requires five throttles. Please remember people, I actually have considerable throttle time on the DCC layouts of my friends....... Sheldon I was talking Train Engineer (which I currantly use), not ditgarax.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Wireless throttles, system can handle up to 99 if I remember right. Yes, but you can only control two at a time with one Ditgarax throttle. 5 operators implies 5 trains moving at once. Five operatos requires five throttles. Please remember people, I actually have considerable throttle time on the DCC layouts of my friends....... Sheldon
rrebell Wireless throttles, system can handle up to 99 if I remember right.
Wireless throttles, system can handle up to 99 if I remember right.
Yes, but you can only control two at a time with one Ditgarax throttle. 5 operators implies 5 trains moving at once. Five operatos requires five throttles.
Please remember people, I actually have considerable throttle time on the DCC layouts of my friends.......
I was talking Train Engineer (which I currantly use), not ditgarax.
I use the Train Engineer as well, but I leave each throttle assigned to the same base station all the time. I have never used Aristos onboard Train Engineer. I have eight throttles and eight base stations, works great that way.
Yes, it is set up for 10 sub channels on ten channels, 10 x 10 = 100 actually.
But only the 10 primary channels work simultaneously, that's why I just use 8 base stations on different primary channels.
BRAKIE rrinker Frankly, none of this is going anywhere until either the NMRA sets standards or the manufacturers agree amongst themselves to a de-facto standard. And that's why Blue Rail may become a niche market. I don't think the hobby is ready to embrace R/C quite yet.. They already make tiny recievers that would probably work in a 25 tonner.
rrinker Frankly, none of this is going anywhere until either the NMRA sets standards or the manufacturers agree amongst themselves to a de-facto standard.
And that's why Blue Rail may become a niche market. I don't think the hobby is ready to embrace R/C quite yet..
They already make tiny recievers that would probably work in a 25 tonner.
I'm going to try to make this short.
Paul remarked about the low cost and simplicity of his DCC infrastructure, (which has not been the experiance of my friends with large layouts). He noted 5 operators but only one throttle?
That's all I was asking?
The infrastructures of many LARGE DCC layouts I have seen are pretty involved, seems to me direct radio, once evolved to smaller and less expensive receivers, would have an advantage there. I could be wrong.
A great Engineer at GM/EMD once said - "parts left out cost nothing and cause no service problems".
But since I'm not really interested in suffing decoders or receivers of any kind in my locos at this point, I will shut up now.
rrinkerFrankly, none of this is going anywhere until either the NMRA sets standards or the manufacturers agree amongst themselves to a de-facto standard.
And 5 operaters in ANY control system needs 5 throttles. I fail to see why that is a sticking point. DCC for YEARS now has been able to use smartphones as throttles, for those so inclined. YOU may not use a smartphone at all, but a lot of people do, that makes it essentially a free throttle, becuase the person with a smartphone is going to have the smartphone if they run trains or not.
The simpler engineer throttles are cost equivalent to other system walkaround wireless throttles, so it's not a price issue to get a throttle with real knobs and a direction switch, if smartphones aren't for you.
It's unclear to me how a device which incorporates decoder functions PLUS adds BT or some radio transceiver can EVER be cheaper than a device which is just a decoder. The incremental cost of fitting a large fleet of locos is going to exceed the cost of adding a booster or two to a DCC layout. Boosters are cheap, they're literally just 90-100 watt audio amplifiers. The expensive ones are always expensive because they add more features. The command station is where the brains and the IP of the controlling software is. That's the only expensive component and you only need 1 of those no matter how big a layout you have.
None of this direct radio or bluetooth stuff solves the most complex issue - fitting the decoder. Again I postulate it indeed may make it more difficult - the device you are installing needs to do what the decoder does PLUS have a radio. At BEST you may be able to get the same physical package microcontroller with BT built in, making it the same size, but typically the extra circuitry makes the device bigger. Like the early days of DCC, and pre-DCC command control systems where the boards were hard to fit to some locos due to space requirements. We now have sound decoders small enough to fit in a Grandt Line 23-ton boxcab. Do ANY of the direct radio systems even have a motor-only decoder that will fit in such a small loco? Let alone one with sound. Sure - EVENTUALLY they will get smaller. There are some physical limitations no mater how small the actual circuitry is though - direct radio at 2.4GHz, or 900 Mhz (even worse) requires at least a certain trace length to be used for an antenna.
Frankly, none of this is going anywhere until either the NMRA sets standards or the manufacturers agree amongst themselves to a de-facto standard. Until then, this is like the 70's and 80's command control - dozens of options, none that work with each other. No interchange of locos unless everyone onvolved uses the same system. Like it or not, DCC is a standard and I can take my locos to anyone's layout reardless of what brand system they use, and they will work. Just like back in the DC days.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI am on a single purpose mission to that end, and that end alone. I understand that others do not see the fun in that. But for me it is great fun. Sheldon
Sheldon,That's my goal whenever I decide to build a new ISL even though it may be 1' x 12' or 1' x 8'.
Truth be told I use the DC mode on my Tech 6 far more then the DCC mode.
That is correct..Each locomotive has its own address except when consisted.
I punch in address 1025 for the GP9 assigned to the local while the yard master uses address 42 for the Alco S2 assigned to the yard.
The addresses is nothing more then the engine number on the cab and each throttle can use up to 99 addresses.
MisterBeasleyIt will continue to improve, perhaps even incorporating a standard for smart phone control that lets us use existing decoders. (Don't we have that already?)
Yes, we have!
Roco´s Z21 command station already includes a bluetooth interface which let´s you control your layout with your smart phone or tablet PC.
Paul3 Sheldon,You don't need circuit breakers with DCC. You don't always need boosters. You don't always need multiple power supplies or automatic reversers. My 25' x 50' layout didn't need any of that, and I ran with up to 5 operators. My entire wiring plan was a pair of 14AWG wires 200' long and a 6-cond. Loconet cable with a Digitrax Zephyr, a UR91 radio receiver and a wireless throttle. It doesn't get much simpler than that. The real expense in any onboard control system really isn't in the layout hardware, it's in the locos. My above control system cost less than $600 (Zephyr/receiver/wireless throttle); I've spent twice that in decoders (at least).
Sheldon,You don't need circuit breakers with DCC. You don't always need boosters. You don't always need multiple power supplies or automatic reversers. My 25' x 50' layout didn't need any of that, and I ran with up to 5 operators. My entire wiring plan was a pair of 14AWG wires 200' long and a 6-cond. Loconet cable with a Digitrax Zephyr, a UR91 radio receiver and a wireless throttle. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
The real expense in any onboard control system really isn't in the layout hardware, it's in the locos. My above control system cost less than $600 (Zephyr/receiver/wireless throttle); I've spent twice that in decoders (at least).
One question? A wireless throttle? How did the other 4 operators run their trains?
Paul, I can only go by the infrastructure that I have seen on a number of large DCC layouts. I realize there are a lot of factors and that sometimes that stuff is overdone.
And I agree, the cost problem with ANY command control system is decoders/receivers.
My layout is the perfect example. Even at $20 per decoder for no sound, I would be looking at $2600. And realisticly, $20 decoders are likely not the best choice for all of my motive power, so that cost could quickly double.
But I don't really have a dog in this fight, my pulse width modulated Aristo Train Engineer wireless radio throttles are all working just fine........its not broke, don't fix it.
I barely have $4,000 in 8 wireless throttles, CTC, signaling, redundant tower controls, single button turnout route control, working interlockings, ATC and more. DCC would only replace the wireless throttles, not provide any of those other features, cost more and add complexity - I have enough complexity....
How would it add complexity? Consisting for one. Right now I just couple them together and they run. No inputing long sequences of information to get a train moving.
Right now, look at train, pick up throttle, note single digit number on throttle, note location of train relative to track diagram, push one button on control panel, hold button on throttle, train moves.
I can't even remenber all those Digitrax button sequences, it makes me crazy.....I know, there are better DCC systems then Digitrax......
There were those that still argue Apple computers are better than PCs. Some like DCS better than DCC. Old videophiles preferred Beta to VHS.
But all of these "better" systems made the same mistake. They made their systems proprietary. They were at the same time more expensive and less open to innovation by third-party vendors. No, DCC will remain the digital control system of the future. It will continue to improve, perhaps even incorporating a standard for smart phone control that lets us use existing decoders. (Don't we have that already?)
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL I understand, some guys like to "dabble". I got all that out of my system at a young age because I worked in the hobby shop were you could "play" with everything new as it came along. Actually we live in a very fascinating modeling era as far as electronic wizardry. I can recall trying a DigiTraxx Genesis DCC system at a DCC seminar. While I was highly impress with the UT-2 throttle the idea of having to add decoders turn me off back then. I settled for a MRC CM 20.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I understand, some guys like to "dabble". I got all that out of my system at a young age because I worked in the hobby shop were you could "play" with everything new as it came along.
Actually we live in a very fascinating modeling era as far as electronic wizardry.
I can recall trying a DigiTraxx Genesis DCC system at a DCC seminar. While I was highly impress with the UT-2 throttle the idea of having to add decoders turn me off back then. I settled for a MRC CM 20.
Larry, I get it, but its just not my thing. I have this image in my head, and these drawings on paper, and parts of it already built, of how I want my complete layout to be.
I am on a single purpose mission to that end, and that end alone.
I understand that others do not see the fun in that. But for me it is great fun.
The situation I have, and why I asked the original question, the hidden area is all covered with foam board, plastic and cardboard buildings, and the typical scenery stuff, like trees, ground foam, etc., no metal screening or metal of any kind. It's a stretch of about 9', completely covered.
Of course I'm not tearing out anything I have to run something I don't know anything about, and I don't have a tablet or smart phone (flip phone), and I was just curious if bluetooth would work, with any situation where the track (and loco) is completely hidden in long tunnels, and hidden staging areas.
Mike.
My You Tube
rrebell I would say yes, they have operated at a 100' distance through 3 walls with no loss of signal.
I would say yes, they have operated at a 100' distance through 3 walls with no loss of signal.
Sorry, there is loss. There just isn't enough loss to stop it from operating correctly.
If the overlying scenery contains metal screen, or any other form of metal, the signal loss will be higher.
In a dead rail situation, the Bluetooth will increase battery draw in an effort to maintain signal through increased transmit power. You can see this on your smart phone as it tries to maintain a Bluetooth connection with your car once you get outside the car.
Fred W
ATLANTIC CENTRALI understand, some guys like to "dabble". I got all that out of my system at a young age because I worked in the hobby shop were you could "play" with everything new as it came along.
MisterBeasley I had a flip phone, very compact and not something I had to worry about anyone stealing. It had an acceptable camera and it made phone calls. I didn't have to worry about "using data" or any other smart phone issues. But, the provider "upgraded" their system and gave me a smart phone anyway, because they had "obsoleted" the old phone, which was still perfectly serviceable. TurboTax has done the same thing - no longer supporting their full product for my Windows XP computer. I would hate to invest in something to control my trains, knowing that forces beyond my control are already working to make part of the system obsolete.
I had a flip phone, very compact and not something I had to worry about anyone stealing. It had an acceptable camera and it made phone calls. I didn't have to worry about "using data" or any other smart phone issues.
But, the provider "upgraded" their system and gave me a smart phone anyway, because they had "obsoleted" the old phone, which was still perfectly serviceable. TurboTax has done the same thing - no longer supporting their full product for my Windows XP computer.
Completely agreed, that's why I built my own. And the parts that do come from a "manufacturer" can be subsituted with something from someone else without change to the rest of the system should it become not serviceable.
As for turbotax, no thank you. For years now I have been using "Free Fillable Forms" an IRS service where all the forms are electronic. BUT, you have to actually know how to do your taxes........it does not walk you through it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sir Madog Some people tend to forget, that providing power to the track is only part of the game of wiring a layout. Illuminating buildings and billboards, streetlights and last but not least providing power to switch motors require more wiring effort than necessary to wire a layout for DCC. The only downside is one still has to clean the track, but gleaming helps to cut down on that as well. Ulrich, I'm not refering the activity of wiring the layout, I'm refering to the expense of base stations, wireless base unit receivers, boosters, circuit breakers, multiple power supplies and reversers that are required for large or medium sized layouts. With track powered direct radio, rather than all that stuff, large layouts could be powered by multiple, simple regulated power supplies, possibly with reversers built in. A considerable reduction in both wiring and expense. Small layouts would only need a simple power supply. Sheldon
Sir Madog Some people tend to forget, that providing power to the track is only part of the game of wiring a layout. Illuminating buildings and billboards, streetlights and last but not least providing power to switch motors require more wiring effort than necessary to wire a layout for DCC. The only downside is one still has to clean the track, but gleaming helps to cut down on that as well.
Some people tend to forget, that providing power to the track is only part of the game of wiring a layout. Illuminating buildings and billboards, streetlights and last but not least providing power to switch motors require more wiring effort than necessary to wire a layout for DCC.
The only downside is one still has to clean the track, but gleaming helps to cut down on that as well.
Ulrich, I'm not refering the activity of wiring the layout, I'm refering to the expense of base stations, wireless base unit receivers, boosters, circuit breakers, multiple power supplies and reversers that are required for large or medium sized layouts.
With track powered direct radio, rather than all that stuff, large layouts could be powered by multiple, simple regulated power supplies, possibly with reversers built in. A considerable reduction in both wiring and expense. Small layouts would only need a simple power supply.
mbinsewi I've been following this enless thread since it started, and I have a question. I have a long stretch of track that is totally hidden under scenery, foam, and cardboard. Will blue rail "find" my loco in there? Mike.
I've been following this enless thread since it started, and I have a question. I have a long stretch of track that is totally hidden under scenery, foam, and cardboard. Will blue rail "find" my loco in there?
MisterBeasleyI would hate to invest in something to control my trains, knowing that forces beyond my control are already working to make part of the system obsolete.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL BlueRail will continue to attract small layout guys, new tech heads, etc, and that is good. But until a full featured, well tested, more affordable system is in place, it will remain a niche product, in a niche hobby. Sheldon,I would love to try BlueRail on a test layout and see what the fuss is all about but, as far as replacing my Tech 6 with BlueRail that's not going to happen because the majority of my engines is DC but, still I would like some hands on experience with BlueRail technology just to fill my curiosity .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BlueRail will continue to attract small layout guys, new tech heads, etc, and that is good. But until a full featured, well tested, more affordable system is in place, it will remain a niche product, in a niche hobby.
Sheldon,I would love to try BlueRail on a test layout and see what the fuss is all about but, as far as replacing my Tech 6 with BlueRail that's not going to happen because the majority of my engines is DC but, still I would like some hands on experience with BlueRail technology just to fill my curiosity .
I understand, some guys like to "dabble". I got all that out of my system at a young age because I worked in the hobby shop were you could "play" with everything new as it came along.
Now I know what I want to accomplish and I am focused on that.
I still believe some form of direct radio would be better than DCC, elimiating most of the under layout infrastructure and not sending the control signal through the rails. But unless that architecture is somehow DCC compatible, and NMRA supported, it is not likely to have much impact.
I'm not sure Bachmanns plan is to capture 100% of the advanced DC/DCC modelers, I think there focus is twofold, 1. Attract young modelers into the hobby, and doing it by replacing the DC trainset powerpack and substituting this Bluetooth driven method of operating trains, as it is something the kids are very comfortable with. 2. Lower the cost of the trainsets by eliminating the powerpack and substituting these rather inexpensive boards.
With battery technology advancing the way it is, powered rails may very well be a thing of the past for new hobbyists in the future.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
ATLANTIC CENTRALBlueRail will continue to attract small layout guys, new tech heads, etc, and that is good. But until a full featured, well tested, more affordable system is in place, it will remain a niche product, in a niche hobby.
Thanks Ulrich, very interesting. A few more thoughts.
I cannot imagine a private company disclosing their sales figures, that would never happen here, except when they are about to go public traded.
Yes, I can understand a lot of social reasons why model trains are more popular elsewhere in the world.
One big factor about the "nature" of the hobby here, without meaning to offend anyone, clearly by virture of the long time European preference for RTR equipment, compared to the relatively recent trends in that direction in North America, model railroading in North America has long been a craftsman "niche" hobby and has only recently branched out farther to people who may not have the time, skills or resources for that "deeper" involvement.
I have commented on this repeatedly over the years in conversations about product design, product quality and user expectations, and how those issues have changed, and continue to change in the US market.
Also the hobby is more complex here, because of the vastness of our rail system and its more complex history.
How many steam locomotive designs/types have existed on the DB? The PRR, or the B&O, or the UP each had 20 times, 50 times, or more, that number......times hundreds of seperate railroads. How do you acclimate the general public or casual user to that much information? Our own interest in higher accuracy and better modeling makes our hobby harder for others to relate to.
Another catch, many of the North American modelers who are most active, buy the most, build noteable layouts, are the least likely to support new products like BlueRail. They may use whatever is latest and greatest when they begin a layout project, but it typically takes 5-10 years for the "typical" (and yes around here they are typical) basement (or half basement) empire to be substantially complete. Once they invest in DCC, or Advanced Cab Control, or Computerized Block Control, most are not replacing that equipment........ever.
And these are people who help drive the market here with the volume of equipment needed to populate large and medium sized layouts.
Many such modelers only switched to DCC after it was well proven and full featured - that's why it took 25 years to even reach a 50-60% market share........
BlueRail will continue to attract small layout guys, new tech heads, etc, and that is good. But until a full featured, well tested, more affordable system is in place, it will remain a niche product, in a niche hobby.
I have yet to see a user interface or operational feature that would prompt me to put decoders/receivers in my 130 locootives. Blue rail receiver - bulk $55 x 130 = $7150 - it did not cost that much to build my entire cab control system, CTC, signaling, wireless throttles, turnout controls, etc.
And for all those who say "you don't have to convert everything", well I have no interest in a "hodge podge" of different stuff, I'm building a single complete "system".
BRAKIEWhen I was station in Schweinfurt I would railfan near the Schweinfurt station and see a lot of trains and I recall seeing layouts in the various stations..IIRC you drop a mark into a slot and could watch the trains run
I am afraid those display layouts are long gone. Deutsche Bahn terminated the leases with the family business who built them and put them up for display. The reason? "Does not concur with the modern and dynamic image of today´s rail services" .
Lots of folks miss those layout, but who in the world is the customer who´s wishes we should recognise?
BRAKIEI always like watching those diesel switchers with the side rods switch cars
While not extinct, they have been long replaced by modern Diesel switchers. Some of them were sold to privately owned railways or industries to serve inhouse networks, but they are a rare sight.
Sir Madog think the reason why Europeans seem to be more into model railroading is the fact, that trains are much more apparent in every day life than in your country. I live within earshot of the mainline from the industrial hub area in the west of Germany to the port of Hamburg. On that line, railfanning during the weak is like following the flight of a tennis ball in a match. There are way over 250 trains a day during daylight hours alone!
Ulrich,I can understand that..When I was station in Schweinfurt I would railfan near the Schweinfurt station and see a lot of trains and I recall seeing layouts in the various stations..IIRC you drop a mark into a slot and could watch the trains run.
I always like watching those diesel switchers with the side rods switch cars..
Sheldon,
although Marklin is not a publicly traded company, they have to publish their annual results. Their annual report is available in the Internet, and so is Kader´s.
The same applies for Roco, who owns Fleischmann since a few years now.
Model railroading is a much wider spread hobby in Europe than in the US, where it appears to be a niche hobby, mostly belittled by non-hobbyists. At least this is what I gather from comments here, including those dreadful "The hobby is dying" outbursts.
I think the reason why Europeans seem to be more into model railroading is the fact, that trains are much more apparent in every day life than in your country. I live within earshot of the mainline from the industrial hub area in the west of Germany to the port of Hamburg. On that line, railfanning during the weak is like following the flight of a tennis ball in a match. There are way over 250 trains a day during daylight hours alone! Also, places like "Miniatur Wunderland" have done a marvelous job in promoting the hobby. Shows like the famous "Ontraxs!" exhibition in the Dutch National Railway Museum in Utrecht draw growing crowds each year, boosting public awareness.
Brawa used to make accessories, but since a good 20 years now, they have entered the market of premium locomotives and cars, mainly of German prototype. Lovely models, but way toooo expensive for me!
You are right in stating that the US market is probably driven by a different set of factors and maybe these factors allow for Bachmann EZ App being established in the US market much quicker - or much slower. On a global basis, chances are quite different, though. Even in the UK, where Bachmann has established itsel to be the market leader, it will be quite difficult to successfully market the EZ App unless they are equipped with a standard NEM plug and fit into the space now occupied by a decoder. I doubt that a lot of people will rip out the decoder that comes with the loco to replace it with the EZ App device, though.
As I also lack the ability to foresee the future, I may be totally wrong, but looking at how long it took to establish DCC I have my doubts that I will live to see Bachmann´s gadget to take its place.
Sir Madog I am afraid that, unless Bachmann is able to convince the big names in the game to adopt this system, it will stay a small, rather proprietary niche product - like many other attempts before. The big names are not Athearn and Atlas, but Marklin with its brands Trix and LGB, Roco with Fleischmann, Hornby with Rivarossi, Jouef, Arnold and Elletren (Spain). Add to that the number of slightly smaller operations like Brawa, ESU (also marketing HO scale locos), Lenz, NMJ, Heljan,Jeco and a whole bundle of others, you can evaluate the scope Bachmann is facing to have it accepted as a replacement for DCC. Marklin sales alone exceed those of the entire Kader Group, so chances are pretty slim, I´d say.
I am afraid that, unless Bachmann is able to convince the big names in the game to adopt this system, it will stay a small, rather proprietary niche product - like many other attempts before.
The big names are not Athearn and Atlas, but Marklin with its brands Trix and LGB, Roco with Fleischmann, Hornby with Rivarossi, Jouef, Arnold and Elletren (Spain). Add to that the number of slightly smaller operations like Brawa, ESU (also marketing HO scale locos), Lenz, NMJ, Heljan,Jeco and a whole bundle of others, you can evaluate the scope Bachmann is facing to have it accepted as a replacement for DCC.
Marklin sales alone exceed those of the entire Kader Group, so chances are pretty slim, I´d say.
Ulrich, is Marklin publicly traded? How do you know their sales? None of the US companies are public, their sales figures are not known. We have no idea how big Athearn, Walthers, MTH, Bowser, or others really are.
Kader is public, so we do have some idea of cash revenues.
I know model trains are big in Europe and the UK, and I would not doubt or challenge the idea that those companies are bigger than the US companies, I have no knowledge either way.
But, I would suggest that larger or smaller, the US market is driven by a completely different set of factors. Considering how long it took for DCC to even reach 50-60%, the likelyhood of any new system gaining much market share is slim.
There is nothing about this hobby that demands keeping up with new technology.
The funny thing is, except for Brawa partnering with Lifelike for Proto2000 years ago, I only have one product from any of those other "world wide" companies. So their size, or market presence has no effect on me, or most US modelers.
So your more detailed thoughts on why the European manufacturers would be key to its growth would be interesting.
rrebell Uh, you don't have to use your phone controls, their are others that work through bluetooth and it is just a mater of time before a dedicated thottle arrives.
Uh, you don't have to use your phone controls, their are others that work through bluetooth and it is just a mater of time before a dedicated thottle arrives.
So if my Aristo throtttles all die, then I will see what us out there by that time. Most any radio throttle, direct radio or layout based, can fit right into my existing system.
rrebell It is realy bluetooth vs all. New chips are less than 1/4 the size of the old ones from a year ago. They have micro motors to run couplers (seen them and they are small). DCC at some point will become a control chip, still very important though.
It is realy bluetooth vs all. New chips are less than 1/4 the size of the old ones from a year ago. They have micro motors to run couplers (seen them and they are small). DCC at some point will become a control chip, still very important though.
Here is the thing, for me and many others, using a touch screen device to control my trains is a non starter.
Don't own a smart phone, the tablet is too big, need/want one hand non visual controls (hard feel knobs or buttons), etc.
So bluetooth, 27Mhz, DCC, it matters not - what matters is the type/quality/design of the user interface.
Poor user interfece designs, un-necessary complexity and un-necessary costs kept me out of DCC, and will keep out of this.
"I see a dark-haired stranger ...!"
Oops, sorry!
"I see Bachmann EZ App replacing complementing DCC..."
riogrande5761 rrinker Look at the date the OP started this. About the time the EZ App was ANNOUNCED, with great fanfare, but ws not yet available. The real world may not be as rosey as the marketing material. --Randy Uh huh. Yes. Effect is still the same; a thread starter making a sweeping prediciton with little solid argument and never coming back in. Again, modus operandi. Yes, put a fork in it.
rrinker Look at the date the OP started this. About the time the EZ App was ANNOUNCED, with great fanfare, but ws not yet available. The real world may not be as rosey as the marketing material. --Randy
Look at the date the OP started this. About the time the EZ App was ANNOUNCED, with great fanfare, but ws not yet available. The real world may not be as rosey as the marketing material.
Uh huh. Yes. Effect is still the same; a thread starter making a sweeping prediciton with little solid argument and never coming back in. Again, modus operandi.
Yes, put a fork in it.
Who would have thought it? Bachman EZ app vs. DCC?
Why do I have a feeling of deja vu?
Yes,time to use a fork..
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Accually they have come a long way with new smaller boards available soon. Some of the early restrictions on the company have been lifted and they have 4 battery variations for sale now. Soon to be available is a board to be used with a DCC decoder. Still a long way to go but for a company this young, not bad.
riogrande5761Sometimes you have to wonder if people start topics just to sit back and watch the fur fly
So you're suggesting that:
riogrande5761 Bachman EZ app Will it obsolete DCC? *sigh*
Bachman EZ app Will it obsolete DCC?
*sigh*
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
riogrande5761 I looked through this topic and didn't see one response from the thread starter. Sometimes you have to wonder if people start topics just to sit back and watch the fur fly - like throwing a piece of meat into a shark tank and watching the frenzy. Gotta love this place!
I looked through this topic and didn't see one response from the thread starter. Sometimes you have to wonder if people start topics just to sit back and watch the fur fly - like throwing a piece of meat into a shark tank and watching the frenzy. Gotta love this place!
passenger1955 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwtI_es42E0 Still not going to replace DCC. But consisting is out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwtI_es42E0
Still not going to replace DCC. But consisting is out.
Wasn't consisting originally going to be controlled automagically via some BEMF load reading? This is literally no different than DCC with JMRI right now. Instead of deadrail, you can use a keepalive.
Considering the learning curve for installing a decoder has always been the hardest part of going DCC, I don't see this taking off at all.
You can have sound on your phone or via Bluetooth onboard for now, a separte sound part is coming. For now the sounds are generic but will be more custom soon (app upgrade). Android version due out very soon. Consisting is an app away. Basicly most of the things people are calling for are apps and unlike DCC decoders where you have to send it off for an upgrade, you will be able to download upgrades. So if someone writes the app, you can have your train sound like anything you like and you will be able to run as many trains as you like in consist.
I was watching BlueRail's video's on their web site. Some of the video's are Bachmann. A few observations:
I cannot even see this product is going to get off the ground if they cannot match the available functions of DCC right from the start.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Just saw a reveiw on MRH and having throttles lined up for different engines on an I-pad was kinda cool, also talked about using the dead rail points for a keep alive.
Soo Line fan
4.2?!?!? I just upgraded to 3.0!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
1 1/8"x2 1/2"x3/16" for the board and may be ordered with the wires in place for battery.
BlueRail just released a page with information and specs on their first bluetooth plugin boards.
http://bluerailtrains.com/blue-horse/
Smallest bluetooth speaker for onboad sound I have found is about 1" square.
MSRP, but what do you pay for a sound decoder now? Remember that new files can be downloaded anytime they are avalable, the system is just starting.
rrebell maxman Bucksco There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage! It was my understanding that there was something that was sold as an extra item so that the EZ app could operate non-Bachmann locos. If that is not the case, and only Bachmann locos can be used, then I see even less benefit. The decoder is not a Bachmann product but one by Bluerail Trains, Bachmann is the volume part of the idea, their being involved will keep the inital cost way down. The first decoder is $75 with an Android app just arround the corner.
maxman Bucksco There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage! It was my understanding that there was something that was sold as an extra item so that the EZ app could operate non-Bachmann locos. If that is not the case, and only Bachmann locos can be used, then I see even less benefit.
Bucksco There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage!
It was my understanding that there was something that was sold as an extra item so that the EZ app could operate non-Bachmann locos. If that is not the case, and only Bachmann locos can be used, then I see even less benefit.
The decoder is not a Bachmann product but one by Bluerail Trains, Bachmann is the volume part of the idea, their being involved will keep the inital cost way down. The first decoder is $75 with an Android app just arround the corner.
$75 is alot. Is that an MSRP? If so it will probably get a much lower street price.
rrinkerIt's no different than DC - you just run them together. All this fancy electroniuc speedometer and automatic speed matching script stuff in JMRI - it's not necessary! Just like DC, close is good enough.
That is a matter of opinion. If you are trying to DPU, speed matching is extremely important, otherwise you will shove that $50+ piece of rolling stock right into your $30 brass signal. And its a real pain with older locomotives whose manufacturers liked to play the gear ratio of the day game at the factory.
Not going to go into the mechanical problems that will likely arise within the locomotives themselves over time.
rrinker(we don;t allow the facier consisting on the club layout)
The only thing that happens regularly is people forget to de-consist their locomotives and they have to factory reset them (because we delete all consists at the end of a show, locomotives on the track or not).
As for the Blurail, I have no need of it, and cannot fathom a reason to pay $75 to put a decoder that has no sound files, and not even the correct sound files in the Iphone app, into a locomotive so that I can operate that one locomotive by itself. Why not just buy this: http://www.digitrax.com/products/sound-decoders/sdxh166d/ Also costs $75 and you dont need to remember to charge your phone or your train.....
Additionally, has Bachmann considered that this might be slightly irresponsible from a marketing to new model railroaders aspect? I would be irritated bordering on downright incensed if I were to buy a close to $300 starter set, then tried to add another manufacturers locomotive, only that to find out that they wont work out of the box without modification?
BuckscoThere is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage!
maxman Has anyone found a spot where they give you the price of the EZAp box and whatever the thing is called that plugs into the decoder? Basically the system without the loco. Earlier this week one of our club members did a demonstration where he used his smartphone to run the trains. He used a router, a Raspberry Pi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi), and an interface cable to connect everything to the NCE control bus. JMRI was downloaded to the Raspberry Pi, and he used a free raildriver application downloaded from his appropriate app page. The screen on his smartphone emulated the same screen for the throttle in JMRI. All the locomotive functions were accessible from the throttle. He plugged it in and was able to run trains. Another member downloaded the app and was also able to run trains. This member also went out to the parking lot and still had train control. He had a cost estimate for what he had built of about $250. Interestingly, the most expensive item was the router. Based on this demonstration, I can see no benefit to the Bachmann device with all its limitations. The only concern members had was that the batteries on their smartphones would die too fast. Of course, this will be corrected as soon as the battery technology advances to the level mentioned as "coming soon" by other forum members.
Has anyone found a spot where they give you the price of the EZAp box and whatever the thing is called that plugs into the decoder? Basically the system without the loco.
Earlier this week one of our club members did a demonstration where he used his smartphone to run the trains. He used a router, a Raspberry Pi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi), and an interface cable to connect everything to the NCE control bus. JMRI was downloaded to the Raspberry Pi, and he used a free raildriver application downloaded from his appropriate app page.
The screen on his smartphone emulated the same screen for the throttle in JMRI. All the locomotive functions were accessible from the throttle. He plugged it in and was able to run trains. Another member downloaded the app and was also able to run trains. This member also went out to the parking lot and still had train control.
He had a cost estimate for what he had built of about $250. Interestingly, the most expensive item was the router.
Based on this demonstration, I can see no benefit to the Bachmann device with all its limitations.
The only concern members had was that the batteries on their smartphones would die too fast. Of course, this will be corrected as soon as the battery technology advances to the level mentioned as "coming soon" by other forum members.
There is no box or thing that plugs into anything. To try EZ APP you basically need an Apple Smart device and an EZ APP locomotive so your investment is the cost of the locomotive. The simplicity is the advantage!
And the new Pi 3 has WiFi, so you wouldn't even need the router. I've done it with my Windows laptop using an app called Connectify. It makes the already there wifi act as an access point for smartphones. Limit I think was 10, so if you want more than 10 phone throttles you'd have to use a real wireless access point (doesn;t need to be a full blown fancy router - also can be one of the older slower protocol ones, which are cheaper, assuming the devices you want to connect support an older wifi standard as well as the latest stuff). There are similar apps for Linux that could be used on the Pi 3.
riogrande5761 mbinsewi I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way. I was totally fine with my flip phone until last year when my wife and I took on her 21 year old step-son who is a long way from independance and put him on our medical plan - we took a $180/month hit for AHCA required health insurance so we looked for ways to offset it. We were paying $80/mo to Verizon for two flip phones. We found if we got two $50 (one time cost) Windows 8 smart phones (Nokia Lumia) we could cut our monthly cost and save $50/month or more. How? We found T-mobile has a $3/mo per phone minimum plan for 30 min or 30 text. Of couse we go over that but still only pay around $25 or so because we are able to leverage wi-fi at work and home and use Skype or Viber to do much of our texting and calling, thus minimizing the cell minutes. So now it's me who is with an inexpensive smart phone plan - goodbye to my flip phone!
mbinsewi I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way.
I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way.
I was totally fine with my flip phone until last year when my wife and I took on her 21 year old step-son who is a long way from independance and put him on our medical plan - we took a $180/month hit for AHCA required health insurance so we looked for ways to offset it. We were paying $80/mo to Verizon for two flip phones. We found if we got two $50 (one time cost) Windows 8 smart phones (Nokia Lumia) we could cut our monthly cost and save $50/month or more. How? We found T-mobile has a $3/mo per phone minimum plan for 30 min or 30 text. Of couse we go over that but still only pay around $25 or so because we are able to leverage wi-fi at work and home and use Skype or Viber to do much of our texting and calling, thus minimizing the cell minutes. So now it's me who is with an inexpensive smart phone plan - goodbye to my flip phone!
rrebell rrinker Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff. It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations. --Randy What you are missing is that before to go dead rail, you had to buy a bunch of stuff and soulder it all together and hope you did it right, plus add a battery and then buy a controler. This can be plug an play almost, just add battery, a vast improvment. That being said, this is if the battery part works, but it should.
rrinker Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff. It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations. --Randy
Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff.
It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations.
What you are missing is that before to go dead rail, you had to buy a bunch of stuff and soulder it all together and hope you did it right, plus add a battery and then buy a controler. This can be plug an play almost, just add battery, a vast improvment. That being said, this is if the battery part works, but it should.
At least two of the existing direct radio/dead rail options are ALSO just plug in systems, they plug in to the DCC plug on the loco and have a battery option that just plugs into the receiver. I don't see this Bachmann thing as any different other than it uses Bluetooth standard rather than some other rf link. Until they write their app for other smartphones besides the iphone, it's every bit as limited as those systems which use their own proprietary throttle unit. Hopefully it will also be available on Android soon.
Well, I'am not changing to anything soon, as I'm DCC freindly, but I have the option of flipping a couple of switches, and I'm on DC. I'm still very much on the uphill swing of the DCC learning curve. If I was to hold out for anything, it would be dead rail, as sometime in the future, I'd like a garden size layout, simple to start with.
As far as consisting, I have DCC locos, that run great together, so I left the address at 03, just like on DC. It works for me.
And, to answer the OP's original post? I don't think so at all. To many of us like what works for us, DC, DCC, DCS, etc., and all will always be an option, along with any proprietary system that comes along, and gains favor with how ever many customers will buy into it, until something else comes along. What works and survives will be among the options.
EDIT: And yup! you have probably guessed right, I still have a flip phone, and I like it that way. Just have fun with your hobby, as that's what it's for.
rrinker Bottom line on this topic is that hardcore DC users who never switched to DCC aren;t going to use this direct radio/bluetooth stuff either, and people who've invested in DCC aren;t going to dump it all and switch to this direct radio/bluetooth stuff. It's a neat niche product. Might appeal to some, but it seems too limited at the moment for really large layouts and/or serious operations. --Randy I agree completely, Randy. I describe myself as a DCC operator, mostly silent decoders, with a random sampling of sound. I'm currently building a new layout that is being built and wired to DC standards. Why the step back? Simple, so I can run the other 50% of my fleet that is DC. Of course, the new layout, will also be wired to run DCC with the flip of a toggle switch, for when I change my focus and that will be JMRI compatible, which means I will be able to at some point use my Droid Phone to act as a throttle. My allocated train space is in a 352 sq ft trainroom, so i don't have some of the issues others have. At this stage of the build, I could incoprorate any system I want, but I do not see myself having any interest in exploring this proprietory system
I agree completely, Randy. I describe myself as a DCC operator, mostly silent decoders, with a random sampling of sound. I'm currently building a new layout that is being built and wired to DC standards. Why the step back? Simple, so I can run the other 50% of my fleet that is DC.
Of course, the new layout, will also be wired to run DCC with the flip of a toggle switch, for when I change my focus and that will be JMRI compatible, which means I will be able to at some point use my Droid Phone to act as a throttle. My allocated train space is in a 352 sq ft trainroom, so i don't have some of the issues others have. At this stage of the build, I could incoprorate any system I want, but I do not see myself having any interest in exploring this proprietory system
Randy, I understand, I have operated on a lot of DCC layouts - point is, I have not needed either - just one more "step" with DCC that makes it not fit my needs.
I have admitted often, DCC is great for some types of operational needs/goals, but for my purposes it brings nothing to the table that would justify the expense or time - not to mention that all the user interfaces are poor at best........
But I still agree it is here to stay among those who like its features......and those who like onboard sound.......
Sheldon, consisting in DCC is just running multiple locos together. You're thinkign of speed matching, and even as a DCC junky I sometimes have to laugh at the effort people go through to try and perfectly match their locos. It's no different than DC - you just run them together. All this fancy electroniuc speedometer and automatic speed matching script stuff in JMRI - it's not necessary! Just like DC, close is good enough. Different manufacturer, different decoders - doesn;t matter as long as they are close. My main lugging power is a pair of GP7's sandwiching a Trainmaster - an old timer told me this is what the engine crews did, if the consist had the TM leading, they would rearrange at the earliest possible opportunity. My Gepps are Proto 2000, the TM is Atlas. The TM has QSI sound, the Gepps have TCS motor decoders. I just set them all to the same address (we don;t allow the facier consisting on the club layout), coupled them together, and they run for hours pulling a train around the layout at shows. No bucking, no sliding drivers, they just run. If I seperate them and run them,, the Geeps start first but as the speed rises, the TM outruns them. Yet coupled together they share the load and work just fine. I've mad no adjustments to the speed control CVs in any of those locos. I also have an FT A-B pair, Stweart, that are drawbar coupled, but a differnet decoder in each one - one sound, one without. They too run fine together without playing any speed matching games. DCC is complicated because some people chose to make it complicated. You really can just stick some locos on the track, grab a throttle, and run them, same as DC.
jrbernier David, Unless MTH has really improved their DCC capability, speed matching is quite hard. I friend bought a 'Little Joe' and other than matching his DCC equiped GP9's to run at the MTH's speed, there was very little we could do the match the MTH engine to the rest of his fleet. Maybe they have addressed this in the newer runs, but the DCS decoders just do not have the DCC function that is claimed. At one time they have talked about HO DCS decoders being available - and I still have not seen any at the LHS.... Jim
David,
Unless MTH has really improved their DCC capability, speed matching is quite hard. I friend bought a 'Little Joe' and other than matching his DCC equiped GP9's to run at the MTH's speed, there was very little we could do the match the MTH engine to the rest of his fleet. Maybe they have addressed this in the newer runs, but the DCS decoders just do not have the DCC function that is claimed. At one time they have talked about HO DCS decoders being available - and I still have not seen any at the LHS....
The newer engines seem to do a better job. Nothing is perfect even between non MTH engines.
As far as the dcs decoder, I have heard no news about it. I'll see Mike Wolf at a show in April and I'll ask him for a update
DAVID FORTNEY Wrong! I can consist any brand locomotive with my MTH locomotives. Both running under DCC.
Wrong! I can consist any brand locomotive with my MTH locomotives. Both running under DCC.
The other side of that coin is that I have been at this for 40 plus years and have yet to find a use for consisting. My Spectrum 2-6-6-2's run just fine with my Proto 2-8-8-2's on DC, just as one example - I'll skip all that drama, with either system.....
Don, what post are you responding to?
I deal with reverse loops in a number of ways, but reverse loops are as much a layout design issue as an electrical issue.
My layout is designed so that left is always west and right is always east. On large layouts this makes operating sessions much easier to understand. Reverse loops are only used for staging, etc.
Sir Madog Here you are, jst for you!
Here you are, jst for you!
Ha! Well, there you go! Pretty handy for parking in hidden staging too! Thanks, Eric
It still doesn't solve problems like polarity reversals where reversers (DPDT or auto reversers) are needed.
It does make DC control a lot more convient. But it's about as useful as DCS is to DCC. And we know what the end result of that is...DCC works on every brand DCC loco. DCS does not.
Here is my answer to Sheldon:
In Germany, model railroading is a much more socially accepted hobby than in the US. We even have TV shows about trains and model trains! How large the market really is, is quite difficult to determine, however, about 3 million Germans are members of a model railroading club. A rough estimate says there are about 5 million in the hobby - the majority modeling in HO scale, followed by N scale and TT. TT scale was really popular in former communist East Germany and is growing its market share nicely in recent years - due to some innovative and active small manufacturers.
Marklin 3-rail AC still has the highest market share, but not among what we would call the serious model railroader. Marklin is still capitalizing on its glorious past, when they were the market leader in terms of quality. That´s history by now, others are equally good or even better now.
Like in the US, the typical layout is about 4 by 8 feet, make that 1.20 by 2.40m. Space is much rarer in this country, so basement-filling empires are the exception and not the rule. Even a spare room is an exception. Houses and apartments are much smaller than in your country, but still bigger than in the UK, where model railroaders display artistic talents in building tiny layouts.
In gerneral, the cost of the hobby is much higher, although with the recent price increases of Bachmann, BLI, MTH and all others, the difference is getting smaller.
Like in the US, attracting younger folks to the hobby is difficult, although places like Miniatur Wunderland and many others do a wonderful job in supporting the recruitment of the next generation. I failed to pass on this virus - my son is into painting war hammer figures and building dioramas, but no trains -
Basically, the hobby is for old pharts like us
How many locos will an average model railroader have? I can only give an educated guess - like maybe 20 - 40, acquired over a length of time. A lot of folks buy secondhand these days, although Ebay prices are outrageously high.
I failed to give an answer about having a layout at home vs. club layouts. Most members in a model railroading club also have home layouts.
And a few more items.
Germany is much more a RTR market as there is an (over-) abundance of accessories. The drawback of this is that layouts tend to look all the same. Most of the brands will sound familiar to you - Busch, Faller, Preiser, Noch, Herpa, Vollmer, Kibri, Merten, Sommerfeldt - just to name a few.
The above is only my own perception of model railroading in Germany - grown over 52 years.
Sir Madog ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own? PM sent, Sheldon!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own?
PM sent, Sheldon!
Ulrich, could you please post the answer here too? I am curious too about your answers to Sheldon's questions about size of typical layout, Modelers with home vs club and how many loco's does the average modeler own.
-E-C-Mills I think it would be pretty cool to have a cell phone or tablet app that looks like a train simulator cab. (or is this already being done I dont know). Maybe down the road, lead locos would have a camera or two in them transmitting images to the cell phone. Is it necessary? No. But, might be fun to see things in a new perspective, on the model level. Regardless, if people want to promote cell phones as controllers, the systems should be add ons to existing DCC.
I think it would be pretty cool to have a cell phone or tablet app that looks like a train simulator cab. (or is this already being done I dont know). Maybe down the road, lead locos would have a camera or two in them transmitting images to the cell phone. Is it necessary? No. But, might be fun to see things in a new perspective, on the model level. Regardless, if people want to promote cell phones as controllers, the systems should be add ons to existing DCC.
Doughless I find technology as a stand alone topic rather boring. I don't keep up with the latest technology for that very reason. Ulrich made a great point, if it doesn't add value to how the trains are controlled, why would it replace DCC? Unless people just like keeping up with technology for that sake alone, which is fine, but that's not my interest. If I see where changing systems of control adds value to the way the trains can be run, I'll look into tearing down all of the work I put into my current control system to then build a new one to get that added value. So far, I don't see it.
I find technology as a stand alone topic rather boring. I don't keep up with the latest technology for that very reason. Ulrich made a great point, if it doesn't add value to how the trains are controlled, why would it replace DCC? Unless people just like keeping up with technology for that sake alone, which is fine, but that's not my interest.
If I see where changing systems of control adds value to the way the trains can be run, I'll look into tearing down all of the work I put into my current control system to then build a new one to get that added value. So far, I don't see it.
Uh, Bluerail Trains and Bachmann are two separate companys, they just work together. I have played with DCC and have freinds that have liked it (but also spent hours trying to fix others problems on them. Basicly anything that requires track power has problems. Almost never have problems with wireless control (had batteries die after two years on my Train Engineer stuff but they are AA).
rrebell You can get 3-4 decoders with sound for $75, where? Hook battery to dead rail bumps on decoder, not much work, remember the new batteries last up to 40x current ones and recharge faster etc.. First will be a Proto 2000 0-8-0, lots of room in the tender and DCC or bluetrain ready. Could just leave shell on tender loose or? You can control more than one at a time with one cell but already have three compatable phones, remember you don't need service to download app, just a hot spot. There are no dead rail complete systems out there that you don't have to build. Last, used phones can be had for less than $20.
You can get 3-4 decoders with sound for $75, where? Hook battery to dead rail bumps on decoder, not much work, remember the new batteries last up to 40x current ones and recharge faster etc.. First will be a Proto 2000 0-8-0, lots of room in the tender and DCC or bluetrain ready. Could just leave shell on tender loose or? You can control more than one at a time with one cell but already have three compatable phones, remember you don't need service to download app, just a hot spot. There are no dead rail complete systems out there that you don't have to build. Last, used phones can be had for less than $20.
What do you mean, "have to build them"? This Bluerail thing is no different in that regard that one of thoe others out there link Ring's. You need to supply power to the rails, install the receiver in a loco, and linmk it to the controller (or phone). If you're happy with a few Bachmann locos I guess you get out of having to install the receiver. Thing is, on most any modern (made in the past 10-15 years at least) loco, this is almost trivially easy. People like to make things seem harder than it really is. Yes, there are a few exceptions that require a bit of engineering and thought to wire up, but for the majority of locos this simply is not true. It is, literally, a plug in installation, thanks to the multitude of DCC decoders from various manufacturers available in all sorts of sizes to fit all sorts of locos. A single manufacturer can't possibly make every variant - not one of the DCC manufacturers has the ideal decoder for EVERY brand of loco, but it's a non issue because any brand decoder works with any brand system. Until and unless these various direct radio systems form a standard, or at least there is a defacto sort of standard by one manufacturer allowing others to build compatible equipment, this same level of support just can't happen.
rrebell To answer a few of the questions, in Gemany and many other countries over there, space for trains for many are at a premium, especially in the cities (try designing kitchens for houses with sloped ceilings, and this is in new construction). People forget how many DCC engines are sold and have the decoder taken out and replaced (meaning a new decoder sale or just changed to something else). Also what do you count a duel decoder as. I don't have DCC but have a number od DCC engines or DCC ready, that will be converted.
To answer a few of the questions, in Gemany and many other countries over there, space for trains for many are at a premium, especially in the cities (try designing kitchens for houses with sloped ceilings, and this is in new construction). People forget how many DCC engines are sold and have the decoder taken out and replaced (meaning a new decoder sale or just changed to something else). Also what do you count a duel decoder as. I don't have DCC but have a number od DCC engines or DCC ready, that will be converted.
Very true, the sale of DCC equiped locos says nothing about DCC use - I have 130 locos, easily 40 of them came with DCC decoders - but they have never seen a DCC layout, and their decoders are long gone now.
Bachmann basic decoders sell rather well on ebay...........
One point that I do not think has been made yet -
Personally, I have NO INTEREST in having different control systems on the same layout.
The idea of using DCS to control my MTH locos, then switching to a DCC system for other locos, then picking up a smart phone to control a different group of locos is simply beyond comprehension for me.
I am running a model railroad "system", designed as an integrated system of control to provide the desired features for the operation of ALL trains on the layout and to provide both display running and prototype operating sessions for one operator or a crew of 8-10 operators and a dispatcher.
DCC and advanced DC systems are good at this - having two or three or more systems on the same layout would be impossible..........no matter the features of any specific system.
But for those of you not into prototype operating sessions, I guess it maters not.......
DAVID FORTNEY Sir Madog DAVID FORTNEY DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now Maybe it is my lack of imagination, but I have no clue what that could possibly be! I repeat myself - any new system that has come up recently has not offered any additional value. Technolgy advances all the time and to be afraid of new advances in what we do is just silly. In my life time the changes in my job was just astounding. Your cell phone today has more computer power then when the astronauts went to the moon in 1969. Time marches on and so does technology. I'm going to give the Bachmann blue tooth a try.
Sir Madog DAVID FORTNEY DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now Maybe it is my lack of imagination, but I have no clue what that could possibly be! I repeat myself - any new system that has come up recently has not offered any additional value.
DAVID FORTNEY DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now
Maybe it is my lack of imagination, but I have no clue what that could possibly be! I repeat myself - any new system that has come up recently has not offered any additional value.
Technolgy advances all the time and to be afraid of new advances in what we do is just silly. In my life time the changes in my job was just astounding. Your cell phone today has more computer power then when the astronauts went to the moon in 1969.
Time marches on and so does technology. I'm going to give the Bachmann blue tooth a try.
David, to assume that people who do not jump on every new thing are "afraid of technology" is just silly.....
I was programing the first Progamable Logic Controllers in the 80's long before most of you owned a personal computer. My home has "whole house automation", I drive cars with in dash navigation and bluetooth phones - but my trains still run on DC, and I don't own or want a smart phone because I understand the technology well enough to know I don't need or want it.
But my DC system is so complex it includes:
Radio throttles with over 100' range
detection and signaling
intergrated turnout controls with local and dispatcher control
one button route control of turnouts
working interlocking signals
CTC
Automatic Train Control - (collision avoidance system)
constant brightness lighting
pulse width modulated speed control with momentum
How many of those features does your DCC or bluetooth system have? It all depends on what features you want.
But I admit, my trains lack the all important feature of the conductor making station announcements...........
ATLANTIC CENTRALOK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own?
Sir Madog ATLANTIC CENTRAL David, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base. Sheldon, I think this figure is much bigger when you include the rest of the world. Don´t forget, the German market alone is way bigger than the US market. Oh, btw, my own layout is DC only, with a rather intelligent Gaugemaster controller, which incorporates momentum simulation and breaking. My layout is sound equipped, but not onboard, but "under the table". David, I am not afraid of new technologies, but I am not a fan of new technologies which do not offer any improvement over existing and well-proven stuff. I think Bachmann is on the wrong track introducing yet another system which will stay proprietary for quite a long time, if not forever. The reason for Bachmann is not to offer an added value or cost benefit to the customer, but purely a marketing one.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL David, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base.
Sheldon, I think this figure is much bigger when you include the rest of the world. Don´t forget, the German market alone is way bigger than the US market.
Oh, btw, my own layout is DC only, with a rather intelligent Gaugemaster controller, which incorporates momentum simulation and breaking. My layout is sound equipped, but not onboard, but "under the table".
David, I am not afraid of new technologies, but I am not a fan of new technologies which do not offer any improvement over existing and well-proven stuff. I think Bachmann is on the wrong track introducing yet another system which will stay proprietary for quite a long time, if not forever. The reason for Bachmann is not to offer an added value or cost benefit to the customer, but purely a marketing one.
Ulrich, admittedly I have no knowledge or information on the model train markets in the rest of the world.
But all available information about the US market suggests that in HO and N scales (and likely On30), DCC useage is about 60% and growing slowly as new modelers enter the hobby. It also seems clear that conversion to DCC by long time modelers has slowed to near zero - if they are going to convert - they have already.
In the larger scales, O, S, large scale - original AC, Lionel and MTH systems, various direct radio systems, DC and DCC all share similar percentages of popularlity. With this group of modelers DCC has no particular advantage and is not growing at all.
In fact, in large scale the various direct radio/dead rail systems lead the way - only one of which is DCC based........
So, it is easy to "ignore" the larger scales as "toys" and say that "serious" modelers mostly use DCC - but, fact remains, at least in the US, it is likely accurate to say only one out 3 people with model trains in the US uses DCC for control.
Another important point - again at least here in the US - DCC is most popular amoung modelers who are more "social", who belong to clubs, or regularly visit each others layouts, transport equipment to run other than at home, belong to modular groups, etc.
"Lone Wolf" types may use DCC, but are also very likely to be the ones experimenting with the new systems - they have no "interchangeablity" issues if they are not involved as much with others. Or, they have simply stayed with DC because it still meets their needs and they see no point in the work or expense of DCC for large or medium sized layouts........
OK, I have some questions, I know model trains are popular in Germany. How large is the typical layout? Do most modelers have home layouts or belong to clubs? Or both? How many locos does the "average" modeler own?
I ask because it speaks directly to the afordablity od DCC. DCC is very afordable for a small loco fleet and a small layout, but DCC cost and complexity grows exponentially as layout size and fleet size increase - boosters, power zones, additional throttles, decoders, etc......
I know these questions are often hotly debated on this forum as it relates to the US and Canada, but here in my area of the US, 800 sq foot home layouts with 100 locos are pretty common place - getting back to my point that DCC or DC, modelers who are happy with what they have, and who have large layouts, are not changing to any new system that comes along.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDavid, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base.
rrebellthe chip (first one being 17mmx17mm) is becoming available soon
From Bluerail's website, the actual dimensions are 58mm X 28mm X 7mm
gregcdid it mention the price?
rrebell$75
The engine lists for $239. The decoder alone will be $75. (About the price of 3-4 DCC fleet decoders with similar features.) Of course, street prices may be less.
rrebellLike I said, my main intrest is dead rail without having to do it all by myself.
You'd still be doing quite a bit yourself to get dead rail with some future Bluerail decoder, wouldn't you?
What battery will you source?
How will you mount the battery in the unit along with the Bluerail decoder?
How will you recharge the battery? By disassembling the loco?
How will you control a second loco? Buy another cellphone?
More-complete dead rail systems already exist -- of course, they are expensive and proprietary to date.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
gregc Productionmanager I just watched the online video review of the Bachman RS-3 that is equipped with what they refer to as Easy Ap to run their trains that are so equipped. did it mention the price?
Productionmanager I just watched the online video review of the Bachman RS-3 that is equipped with what they refer to as Easy Ap to run their trains that are so equipped.
did it mention the price?
BuckscoPersonally I think the innovation here is the interface. To put it in computer terms it's like going from DOS to Windows. If a system comes along that replaces the drudgery of CV manipulation with an intuitive interface that is simple then I'm all for it.
Jack,
I've only seen a screenshot of the interface, haven't used it. But it looked very similar to the WiThrottle/JMRI interface. Am I missing something here? Because that's essentially what you get with those...
BuckscoIt is a nice way to run a locomotive with my Smart device. I like that! I don't think people will go out and get a smart phone just to run their trains but those of us who have an iPhone will be interested.
I agree, but I don't even use smart phones EXCEPT as throttles for JMRI. Hand me down from my generous wife, although you can purchase an old iPhone and do the same thing if you haven't a generous family member. All you need is a Wifi connection to the home network where the layout is. Wifi tends to have a better signal than Bluetooth, too.
I will grant that the fact the Bachmann app works with DCC is an advantage, which reinforces my earlier point that compatibility with DCC is important or such a proprietary system would otherwise be a dead end.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
in regard to JMRI they do the same thing but with Bluetooth you are communicating directly with the locomotive - not a control box, PC then the locomotive. Sure they do the same things but the Bluetooth chip makes it more seamless and actually faster. i think it makes things simpler for beginners which is important for growth of the hobby. DCC is a great system and I don't believe any of its users have to worry about it going away Any time soon. Bluetooth and DCC locos can co-exist on the same layout.
It is a nice way to run a locomotive with my Smart device. I like that! I don't think people will go out and get a smart phone just to run their trains but those of us who have an iPhone will be interested. I have a couple of these locos and I run them on my DCC layout. All I had to do to try it was buy the locos - nothing else! They run in DC mode as well.
DAVID FORTNEY I think it is great to see more control systems come online. Will they take over DCC, not at this time, but new technology that advances our choices is always good. Like everything and every business it comes to an end. DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now, maybe not in my life time But it will happen. I would like to see dead rail come to the forefront. When batteries are produced that are small enough and powerful enough then dead rail will become a competitor for our money. How much and how hard would it be to upgrade our fleets of locomotives to dead rail? That last question could spell doom for dead rail unless that is addressed.
I think it is great to see more control systems come online. Will they take over DCC, not at this time, but new technology that advances our choices is always good.
Like everything and every business it comes to an end. DCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now, maybe not in my life time But it will happen.
I would like to see dead rail come to the forefront. When batteries are produced that are small enough and powerful enough then dead rail will become a competitor for our money. How much and how hard would it be to upgrade our fleets of locomotives to dead rail? That last question could spell doom for dead rail unless that is addressed.
David, in 20 years DCC has only won over 1/2 to 2/3 of its target customer base.
No matter what new technolgy comes along, most of those who are heavily invested in DCC and who are happy with its features will not switch.
Some people will try every new thing that comes along, but model railroaders with large fleets of DCC locos and basement sized layouts wired for DCC are not likely switching - ever.
Just like there are a lot of DC hold outs like me who have not switched to DCC - and have no plans to.
Remember, if we count all scales and gauges, it is likely that only one out of three people with a model train uses DCC - again, after a 20 year push to "convert" them.
Not everyone is interested in "change", many people are happy with what already works for their needs.
I can tell you for sure, I will NEVER use a touch screen device to control my trains. And that I will never be interested in onboard sound in HO. I know all about DCC, Direct Radio, Dead Rail, etc, etc - I am very tech savy - and I still use DC - very advanced radio controlled, fully signaled, semi automated DC - but DC none the less.
I'm sure that when some more advanced system does reach a "mainstream" level, it may become the "point of entry" for new modelers, but just like the switch from DC to DCC, there will be a limit to the percentage of modelers willing to scrap big investments in control equipment and replace it with something new. The expense of a large DCC system makes this factor even more likely than it was with the DC to DCC conversions.
ProductionmanagerI just watched the online video review of the Bachman RS-3 that is equipped with what they refer to as Easy Ap to run their trains that are so equipped.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Well, it will be 5 weeks and the new decoders will be able to ship. Bluerail Trains is asking what type of harness types to put out to fit the needs. Since the nubs are there for dead rail, that is what I will ask for, almost plug-n-play dead rail is coming fast.
Hi, Jack
Bucksco If a system comes along that replaces the drudgery of CV manipulation with an intuitive interface that is simple then I'm all for it.
Isn't that what JMRI Decoder Pro is?
Bucksco It is also software based which means when new features are introduced you will be able to update the app
Or the decoder, which ESU Offers with their LokProgrammer.
Not trying to be contradictory but these technologies are here.
No
Tony
EK Sub in HO Scale
Bucksco I've never had an app on my iphone become unuseable......
I've never had an app on my iphone become unuseable......
That is because generally speaking, most app producers keep up with Apple updates. Currently the Amtrak app no longer works my my iphone (thats my fault) or my girlfriends andriod, just as an example, I have others.
A replacement for DCC will have to offer some good benefit that DCC does not have. All of these new systems fail to do that. DCC offers benefits that DC does not have. And it is an open standard that all can use. And yet it's not the best system for everybody. For various reasons DC is still the best for many folks and likely always will be.
So no.
Paul
BuckscoI for one do not fear advancments in technology - I embrace them. I have DCC but that doesn't prohibit me from trying Bluetooth.
And when Apple updates your phone (which they do), and the Bachmann App is not compatible with the new update (which could happen, it happens to other apps, Bachmann is not immune), you have a paperweight until Bachmann updates their app.
It is amazing how defensive people get when new technology is introduced. I honestly don't think it is Bachmann's intention to threaten the existence of DCC - they are too heavily invested in that system. Personally I think the innovation here is the interface. To put it in computer terms it's like going from DOS to Windows. If a system comes along that replaces the drudgery of CV manipulation with an intuitive interface that is simple then I'm all for it. The beauty of this technology lies in the simplicity. If I have an IOS smart device and I want to try it all I need to do is purchas a locomotive - no peripherals like you need with DCC.I don't believe you need anything other than full power applied to the track to use it. It is also software based which means when new features are introduced you will be able to update the app - this is very forward thinking.
I for one do not fear advancments in technology - I embrace them. I have DCC but that doesn't prohibit me from trying Bluetooth.
DAVID FORTNEYDCC one day will be replaced with something far superior to what we are using now
A single-supplier proprietary system replacing an open-source system already in widespread use? You're kidding, right.
As for using something that bears no resemblance whatever to a traditional controller to operate a single train, this is so far from my druthers that it can't be seen in the Hubble Space Telescope.
I may be a living fossil, but anything that doesn't control the entire railroad fails to fascinate me. Analog DC and my version of Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system work for me, and I have neither need nor plans to change.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - inexpensively)
No, it will not.
CSX RobertIf you can't get a throttle that has a knob or physical buttons for speed control and physical buttons for direction and functions, then I'm not interested. Touchscreens are great for a lot of things, but one handed control of a locomotive without looking at the throttle is not one of them.
This has been done by others using aps to control DCC
So many Aps and so little time.
CZ
If you can't get a throttle that has a knob or physical buttons for speed control and physical buttons for direction and functions, then I'm not interested. Touchscreens are great for a lot of things, but one handed control of a locomotive without looking at the throttle is not one of them.
RR_MelBluetooth can have very good range
The issue in model train applications is the changing orientation of the antenna in the decoder and the fact that humans in the aisles are excellent signal attenuators.
Note also that there are different classes of Bluetooth, with very different ranges. What was used in the police application was likely Class 1, with high power transmitters and a nominal 100 meter range. That's not what is in the typical cellphone or tablet, which is more like 10 meters max.
Since Bluetooth is in the 2.4 GHz frequency range, the RF signal does not propagate through people (and other objects) as well as does the 900 MHz used in many DCC wireless throttles. This can become important in a confined space like a layout room.
Add to that the "pairing" challenges that can be trouble for Bluetooth devices today and it is not ideal for model railroading, in my humble opinion.
It will displace DCC in the "Expensive Christmas Ornament" market. In fact, I think it already has.
I don´t see any added value in Bachmann´s E-Z App Train Control that isn´t already available. It looks as if this is a rather futile attempt to segment a market in favor of Bachmann products - just like MTH tried it with their proprietary DCS system. The key benefit of DCC, aside from the operation features, is that it has been standardized right from the beginning.
rrebellThe chip is not owned by Bachmann but Bluerail Trains. It is compatable with what you run now, and will soon be availible in chip form with dead rail compatability. You can get onboard sound for as little as $10 in larger scales (soon in smaller) and the chip (first one being 17mmx17mm) is becoming available soon, if not now. Android app on the way and as far as consisting, just an app away. Me, I am awaiting the dead rail with new batteries like the Alfa ( 40x lithium-iro capasity) and Prieto coming out later this year, I hope you didn't think Musk's battery factory was going to manufacture old time batteries. Many other batteries in the works, you may want to get rid of your oil stocks as one recharges on water, sci-fi meets reality.
That might be a record for the number of pipe dreams combined in one post.
Bluerail has so many limitations compared to DCC (both feature-wise and technical [RF]), and comes at such a high cost per decoder, that it is clearly not a replacement for DCC -- today or (likely) tomorrow.
Dead rail will be more popular eventually, but it will be much-delayed if there is no standard soon. The size and capacity of batteries must have multiple years more development to be practical in HO and smaller scales.
[And some dead rail suppliers are being short-sighted (I think) in not taking advantage of DCC on the track as a handy way of recharging much smaller batteries constantly, leaving just frogs dead, for example. And thus also having compatibility with the installed base of DCC.]
In the meantime, DCC users have been enjoying independent control of multiple trains anywhere on their layout with consisting, prototype-specific sound, wireless, etc., etc. for many years. Using decoders from many different manufacturers; and pre-installed in many locos. Even on a cellphone or tablet throttle, if you wish (I don't).
So in answer to the Original Poster's question: No.
Just as others have said to the title question - no.
DCC is here to stay - for those currently using it to be sure.
Will other systems develope their own following -likely yes. Various forms of direct radio, dead rail, advanced DC, DCS, and more will likely servive for the foreseeable future.
Remember, it is likely that only about 50% - 60% of HO modelers use DCC, and that is after 20 years. That only equals about 30% of all model train users.......the rest are using something else........
Generally, many of the people using DCC cannot understand why everybody does not use DCC - but everybody does not have the same operational needs, wants or goals. And larger scales often lend themselves to other systems for a number of reasons.
Based on my needs, wants, goals and skills, I have yet to see anything that would get me to install "brains" of any kind in my 130 locos.
Other optiosn that effectively do the same as this Bachmann thing already offer more DCC liek features such as consisting. They just use a different wireless technology, not bluetooth.
Bluetooth is by design limited in range. For a home user this may not be an issue. For a large club that operates purely walkaround, so you can be near your train, it may be ok. But if you need to be a significant distance from your train, now what?
Like the other options for direct control (no signal over the track), this remains a one manufacturer proprietary system. Until there is some standard, either through a body like the NMRA, or else a defacto standard because 4 out of 5 manufacturers implement the same system, these systems will not overtake DCC.
The arguments about makign it simpler - how? Because only 1 train is running? You only need extra boosters and related wiring in DCC if you have lots of trains runnign and need more power. This won;t change just because the control signal uses radio waves direct to the locos. They still draw power from the rails. That doesn;t change the need for additional power, or even feeders. Sorry, even DC locos runnign with just one pair of wires to the rails and unsoldered rail joints don;t work very well and slow down. Transmission line losses are transmission line losses regardless if the line is transmitting DCC, DC, or sine wave AC. Battery on board is the only thing that will reduce or eliminate the need for any track wiring. Current state of the art will easily fit inside HO or larger locos, but what sort of run time? 15-20 minutes before a recharge is about the best you can get. ANd what about when you want to add signals? You still need some sort of track detection circuit, and that needs power and something to draw it.
WHat about powered turnouts? Remote control of them via radio is goign to be every bit as awkward and operating them from DCC. Switch away from loco control, select the ID (address) of the turnout, operate it, flip back to loco control. Doesn;t matter what brand of DCC, it's awkward at best with all of them. BT or direct radio is no different.
EZ App is not yet ready to replace DCC and will need to be much more advanced before it becomes serious competition
1. It will need to support on board sound and consisting
2 It will need to be dead rail compatible.
3. It would need have locomotive specific sounds.
4. It needs an Android version.
I think Bachmann is aiming this for now to the train set crowd. It has potential to be competition just not yet.
The chip is not owned by Bachmann but Bluerail Trains. It is compatable with what you run now, and will soon be availible in chip form with dead rail compatability. You can get onboard sound for as little as $10 in larger scales (soon in smaller) and the chip (first one being 17mmx17mm) is becoming available soon, if not now. Android app on the way and as far as consisting, just an app away. Me, I am awaiting the dead rail with new batteries like the Alfa ( 40x lithium-iro capasity) and Prieto coming out later this year, I hope you didn't think Musk's battery factory was going to manufacture old time batteries. Many other batteries in the works, you may want to get rid of your oil stocks as one recharges on water, sci-fi meets reality.
No consisting, so no way it's even close to DCC user needs.
And why, pray tell, is there this passion for replacing DCC? That's a mountain so tall to climb in terms of the installed user base that it's simply implausible. In fact, for any proprietary system to be "successful" in whatever niche it serves, it has to be compatible with DCC -- unless the "new" is intended to be a technological dead end. In which case, the goal was never to "replace DCC" to begin with. In time, there COULD be something that replaces DCC, but ONLY if it's backwards compatible with it.
Nope. If DCS couldn't kill it, EZ App never will.
And no, DCS won't kill it either...
Proprietary control systems do not go over well with the majority of modelers...
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
DCC will perist because it's open source eh as other have pointed out. Right now other manufacturers would have to license Bachmann's technology. That's the reason Blu Ray won out over HD DVD, USB won out over Fire Wire and VHS beat Betamax. However, I do believe DCC will continue to become more advanced and yet remain backward compatible with older decoders, much like USB 3 which can read USB 1 devices.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Sir Madog Quoting from the Bachmann homepage: "* requires 16 volt DC or DCC track power for operation" Enough said!
Quoting from the Bachmann homepage:
"* requires 16 volt DC or DCC track power for operation"
Enough said!
It is also dead rail compatible, provision are on the chip to connect a batery.
Jack W.
BRAKIEAt 16 volts wouldn't that smoke a DC motor unless there is a decoder to reduce that voltage?
Unless its an MTH locomotive... oh yeah, THAT'S yet another proprietary system
[edit]
Whoah! Hold the (i)phone!
I just read a paragraph in the review on Pg. 63 of the April, MR, and it says in part:
"The sound effects play through the device speaker" (NO speaker in the locomotive!) "The sounds are generic rather than protoype specific. This was disappointing, as I would have liked to hear the distinctive growl of the Alco 244 prime mover."
And for the best part...
It will play Jingle Bells and the headlight will flash in time with the music!!!
Where do I sign up
I'll pass for now, thank you.
Ed
Gee,that method can be used in DC? At 16 volts wouldn't that smoke a DC motor unless there is a decoder to reduce that voltage? I know straight DCC powered track can smoke a nondecoder DC motor since DCC is a form of AC.
EasyApp is another system that works only with the manufacturer's products, and therefore has limited use. You can not run an NCE or TCS WOW equipped locomotive with that system. Can you run an EasyApp locomotive on DCC? I doubt it.
That is why systems like CTC-16 and a few other ones no longer exhist. NMRA did a good job requiring cross platform compatibility for all compliant decoders; that is why it is going strong for over 20 years; and will continue to do so for many years to come.
My
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
No.
Proprietary electronics is usually a dead end. Plus you would have to convert all your engines.
I don't own an Apple anything. I don't own anything that is smart. I would have to buy some kind of smart thing too.
I'll keep my DCC.
DCC like DC will never be fully replace when a all new method of train control and that's when not if since technology is ever changing.
I really haven't looked into the Bachmann system. I've been using Digitrax for about twelve years now and theirs, like some others, too, can be upgraded as new technology allows.
My sister gave me her old Android Kindle Fire and it sat on a shelf for almost a year until I decided to try the Engine Driver app that's available for free.
So just last night I tried it out and in a few simple steps I had trains running through Digitrax > JMRI Decoder Pro and this Kindle Engine Driver app.
It was pretty amazing! And a neat feature was that all of the functions were easily viewable and all I had to do was tap the screen with the stylus to activate it.
It just adds another dimension to operations that I didn't have before and it is running on a system I first installed back in 2003. (plus I have another throttle now )
I believe the DCC protocall is here to stay. It was designed to be versitale and upgradeable and, for me, it does everything I can imagine that I would want to do in the forseeable future and is still backward compatible for engines that I installed simple decoders in so many years ago.
Thanks, Ed
There are three other systems on the market for controlling model trains with digital control.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com