Picked up a NOS Proto 2000 B&O GP 7 last week. While it is a well detailed engine, it does not look right. There is no yellow band around the base of the engine. At the roof line of the engine there is a light gray band that none of the other B&O's I have?
All of the center gears are cracked and I am thinking about taking it back for a refund. I do know how to replace the gears with Athearn gears, done it more than a few times. Not sure I want to repair yet another new engine.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Jack W.
Made the link clickable
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo3406.jpg
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Color photo of 3400. Looks like same paint scheme.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_bo3400.jpg
Check out photos on the site. Your other locos are likely latter simplified schemes.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo.html
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Ken,
As per the photos linked above, the original B&O GP7's were delivered in the blue and grey paint scheme with a black letter band outlined in gold - grey stripe around the bottom, and black roof/top.
The various all blue schemes with yellow lettering and yellow stripes did not appear until after the 1965 ownership takeover by the C&O.
In the 50's and early 60's virtually all B&O diesels were painted in schemes similar to the blue/grey/black with gold lettering commonly seen on EMD F units and ALCO FA/FB units.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=B%26O+F7+Locomotive&view=detailv2&&id=0D072D035C49FAB6A21622431B5C1FFC40AA7CE0&selectedIndex=2&ccid=BUUXcLpR&simid=608047437331759145&thid=OIP.M05451770ba513319f77b952c0369f904o0&ajaxhist=0
Those early GP7's in the blue/grey/black and with the air tanks on the roof were steam generator equipped for passenger service.
How much did you pay for it? Sell it to me......
Sheldon
cudaken Picked up a NOS Proto 2000 B&O GP 7 last week. All of the center gears are cracked and I am thinking about taking it back for a refund. I do know how to replace the gears with Athearn gears, done it more than a few times. Not sure I want to repair yet another new engine. Cuda Ken
Picked up a NOS Proto 2000 B&O GP 7 last week.
While I think that a buyer should be prepared to fix the cracked gear issue anytime they buy a vintage LL Proto GP unit, on the flip side, any hobby store dealing in NOS LL Proto GP units shold be well aware of the problem and should have personally replaced the gears by now. I mean, what is the value added by the middle man retailer if its not for repairing an easily fixable and well known problem that occurred in the factory about 20 years ago? Sheez
So I can see your frustration about getting a refund. (but i think you should keep it and just replace the gears yourself).
- Douglas
Greetings Ken,
A B&O Geep with the Grey band ( and I'd assume black roof) would be a passenger unit. Normally their freight duty hood units and switchers were solid blue with a yellow frame stripe and a narrow yellow stripe high on the hood. They did have a few SD (9's I think) with steam generators but these had the freight colors as well and only rarely saw passenger service. All caB units were delivered in the blue/grey/black colors regardless of service.
B&O engines all looked exceptionally attractive, at least to me. Even when cab units lost their grey band but kept their striping they looked pretty sharp.
The colour photo of #3400 that DSchmitt posted is a really good example of what moderate weathering should look like.
b60bp Greetings Ken, A B&O Geep with the Grey band ( and I'd assume black roof) would be a passenger unit. Normally their freight duty hood units and switchers were solid blue with a yellow frame stripe and a narrow yellow stripe high on the hood. They did have a few SD (9's I think) with steam generators but these had the freight colors as well and only rarely saw passenger service. All caB units were delivered in the blue/grey/black colors regardless of service. B&O engines all looked exceptionally attractive, at least to me. Even when cab units lost their grey band but kept their striping they looked pretty sharp.
I should have been more specific in my post - I was refering to the orginal batch of GP7's, which all came in the blue/grey/black scheme.
Later hood hood unit road locomotives did come in the simplified blue scheme, but the original batch did not loose the blue/grey/black scheme until the C&O take over.
Some cab units saw a breif period with a simplified black band paint scheme - loosing the grey - many stayed blue/grey/black until the solid blue/yellow lettering "B&O" schemes.
Fact remains - Ken, the loco is correctly painted..........
DoughlessWhile I think that a buyer should be prepared to fix the cracked gear issue anytime they buy a vintage LL Proto GP unit
Last 2 out of 3 Protos B&O I have fixed the center gears. Right now I have 5 engines on the RIP track, questions is do I want a 6th one?
Doughless any hobby store dealing in NOS LL Proto GP units shold be well aware of the problem and should have personally replaced the gears by now.
In the past K-10 Model Trains have given me the gears and I have installed them. Last GP 30 gave me fits, hurt my fingers installing them. I may ask if K-10 will install the gears this time around.
Sheldon I paid $69.99 plus tax, not a steal yet not over priced. I will let you know what I do.
Thanks for all the answers folks.
Ken
cudaken Sheldon I paid $69.99 plus tax, not a steal yet not over priced. I will let you know what I do.
Thats about $30.00 more than I consider a fair price for a non-operable "new" locomotive. I would take it back. Granted the repair is an easy one, but a LHS should NEVER sell a unit like that. And some people wonder why the brick and mortor shops are disappearing!
slammin cudaken Sheldon I paid $69.99 plus tax, not a steal yet not over priced. I will let you know what I do. Thats about $30.00 more than I consider a fair price for a non-operable "new" locomotive. I would take it back. Granted the repair is an easy one, but a LHS should NEVER sell a unit like that. And some people wonder why the brick and mortor shops are disappearing!
Opinions vary.........
Ken, I would gladly take it at that price.......I have drawer full of geared axle sets.....
Just for the record, I have fixed most of mine with complete new axles from Lifelike/Walthers and never had a replacement fail. Once Lifelike fixed the problem, the replacement parts and future runs were fine.
Well...
If anyone is really interested, I came across the B&O 3400 at Streamlined Back Shops for $75. +
http://store.sbs4dcc.com/HOLife-LikeProto2000GP7-TTBandO3400.aspx
I would email and be sure they really have it. Ask about the gears, too.
SBS is a pretty reputable seller.
Regards, Ed
Seems to me I saw them at them at Timonium $60-70. The guy I remember having a B&O had them at $65 and said make me an offer I want to get rid of them. As a newbie wanting to get into DCC, I didn't need to add more DC engines to the roster
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
They are easy to convert to DCC with simple drop in decoders - takes more tiem to get the shell off and on that to install the decoders.
I have all 4 road numebrs they released for Reading, plus a spare. The horrible quality couplers have to coem off and get real Kadees, and I didn;t even bother waiting for the cracked gear to show up, I just swapped them all out before putting the loco in service. I will also say I didn't pay more than $40 for any of them - the first one I got a Timonium the guy had $25 marked on it and I wasn't even going to argue but when I handed it to him, he said "gimme $20 and it's good". This was right after Walthers said no more freebie wheelsets without proof of purchase, so I bet the cracked gear "issue" drove prices down - but it is such a simple and easy fix, I'll take an originally $100 MSRP loco for $20-$25 and put 10 minutes and $3 worth of Athearn parts in it any day, every day.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm going to get off my caboose and install one to get over the hump. Also need to complete benchwork, lay track and buy a DCC system, but that is beside the point.
I watched a youtube vid yesterday and they guy used the plastic caps that go over the connections, because he didn't have soldering equipment??!!! He taped everything up with wads of gooey electrical tape.
Now to my question: If I buy one at the next Timonium show, do I just go to the Athearn website to find the wheelsets I need.
cudaken Doughless While I think that a buyer should be prepared to fix the cracked gear issue anytime they buy a vintage LL Proto GP unit Last 2 out of 3 Protos B&O I have fixed the center gears. Right now I have 5 engines on the RIP track, questions is do I want a 6th one? Doughless any hobby store dealing in NOS LL Proto GP units shold be well aware of the problem and should have personally replaced the gears by now. In the past K-10 Model Trains have given me the gears and I have installed them. Last GP 30 gave me fits, hurt my fingers installing them. I may ask if K-10 will install the gears this time around. Sheldon I paid $69.99 plus tax, not a steal yet not over priced. I will let you know what I do. Thanks for all the answers folks. Ken
Doughless While I think that a buyer should be prepared to fix the cracked gear issue anytime they buy a vintage LL Proto GP unit
Yeah, I wasn't looking to name the LHS and don't mean to bash any business trying to make a living and one with a good reputation like K-10 has had over the years. I just don't undertand why any LHS wouldn't just pop in the gears on a NOS loco themselves instead of risking irritating a customer. You're proof of that.
There's a bit of misinformation here.
First, it is my understanding that B&O's SD units did not have steam generators. If this is not the case, then I'd be very interested in having the correct information.
B&O Passenger GP7's were delivered in the blue, black, gray, and dulux scheme, and had the roof mounted air tanks and no dynamic brakes. They were delivered as numbers 740-746, and renumbered 3400-3406 on January 1, 1957.
Passenger GP9's were also delivered in the blue, black, gray, and dulux scheme, and also had roof mounted air tanks and no dynamic brakes. They were delivered as numbers 747-752, and became 3407-3412 on January 1, 1957.
Freight GP7's were delivered in solid blue with dulux lettering and striping, and were very plain units without dynamic brakes or roof air tanks. There were two groups. The first group was 910-922, renumbered to 6400-6412 on January 1, 1957. The second group was 720-731, renumbered to 6413-6424 on January 1, 1957.
Freight GP9's were delivered in solid blue with dulux lettering and striping. They resembled the freight GP7's except that they had dynamic brakes. The first ones were delivered as numbers 675-696 (6425-6446 on January 1, 1957). During 1956, additional engines 6447-6510 were added to the roster without ever having had three digit numbers.
Tom
Tom,
let me dig up that edition of the Sentinel that covered B&O's early SD units. One of them was used on the Pittsburg-Buffalo passenger train (was that 251,252-can't recall tight off) for a while and I've heard on a few commuter runs as well. A story goes thst the road wanted to get rid of the Buffalo train and pulled off the SD because it was saving too much money. Not sure if that's true but it does make sense.
BigDaddy I'm going to get off my caboose and install one to get over the hump. Also need to complete benchwork, lay track and buy a DCC system, but that is beside the point. I watched a youtube vid yesterday and they guy used the plastic caps that go over the connections, because he didn't have soldering equipment??!!! He taped everything up with wads of gooey electrical tape. Now to my question: If I buy one at the next Timonium show, do I just go to the Athearn website to find the wheelsets I need.
I just ordered direct. It's just the gears, part number ATH-60024. They're for the Athearn SD40-2, but are the right ones for the Proto 2000 Geeps, which use an Athearn clone drive. You also need an NMRA gauge to set the wheels properly - they DON'T just get pushed in as far as they can go. Since the gear sets are for a 6 axle loco, 2 packs will do 3 Geeps. I bought enough to replace mine plus a few extras in case I aquire more - since my prototype paint scheme is pretty easy to do (no fancy stripes or anything), I can always pick up an Undec or even another road and strip it and repaint. So I have gears on hand to fix them before they break - if you get one and it works fine out of the box and has not had the gears replaced, it WILL fail eventually. So I just replace them all and not worry. Good opportunity to clean old grease out of the gears and apply a proper quantity of a better quality product.
Doughless I just don't undertand why any LHS wouldn't just pop in the gears on a NOS loco themselves instead of risking irritating a customer. You're proof of that.
Yep, a 5 minute repair is not worth it.
Jim
Thanks Randy
b60bp Tom, let me dig up that edition of the Sentinel that covered B&O's early SD units. One of them was used on the Pittsburg-Buffalo passenger train (was that 251,252-can't recall tight off) for a while and I've heard on a few commuter runs as well. A story goes thst the road wanted to get rid of the Buffalo train and pulled off the SD because it was saving too much money. Not sure if that's true but it does make sense.
This surprises me, but I guess it's possible. You are correct that SD's were commonly used on the old BR&P. The F5A freight units that were originally assigned to BR&P service (numbers 153/153A to 171/171A, odd only; later 4460-4479) were set up as back to back A-A sets with a steam generator in one unit and extra water capacity in the other. They were later spliced with new F7B units to eliminate the need for helpers on freight. I have also seen photos of steam generator equipped B&O FA's on BR&P excursions. I was assuming these cab units would have taken care of any need for passenger service on the old BR&P, but could be mistaken.
It's always good to learn something new.
I could find no evidence that any of the 10 B&O SD-9's had steam generators - BUT, SD-7 7400, the first of only 5, was the second EMD demostrator - which may have had a steam generator - is that a vent peaking over the edge in this photo?
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo7400amm.jpg
UPDATE:
Found some more data - SD-7 7400, originally numbered 760, ex EMD demo 991, did in fact have a steam generator:
http://www.readbag.com/borhs-modelermag-bo-modeler-4-2008-janfeb
The only B&O SD to be steam heat equiped........
Thanks. It's always good to learn something new.
I'd like to find out more about those boiler equipped FA units. Been curious ever since 1965 when I bought "B&O Power" and saw a photo in there of such units on the Delaware Park train. I saw the actual train a number of times but it always had Geeps .
Guess I better dig through some of my literature but I'm pretty played out from chemo treatment lately. Oh well, good excuse to be lazy.
I checked Extra 2200 South, Issue 33, March-April, 1972 for info on the B&O FA sets. Here's what I found there:
First, those familiar with B&O's early diesel numbering scheme will already know that it was unlike that of most other roads. Originally, all B&O FA's had odd numbers. The lead A unit was what we might call the "master" unit for want of a better term. The trailing A unit carried the same number with an A suffix. If the units were separated, the trailing A unit temporarily assumed the next higher even number. B units used the same number with an X suffix (or AX if there was a second B unit). This was all simplified in the general renumbering of January 1, 1957.
B&O's FA sets were odd numbers 801-837. Two of these sets, 817 and 837, were ABBA's; all the others were ABA's.
All A units from 801 through 817A had steam generators. B units with steam generators were 809X, 811X, 813X, 815X, and 817X.
After the January 1, 1957 renumbering, FA-2's were numbered 4000-4037, and FB-2's were numbered 5000-5020. Steam generators were in numbers 4000-4017 and 5004-5008.
Hope that helps.
For the record C&O did not owned the B&O..C&O controlled the B&O through stock.Later B&O controlled WM through stock.
None of the roads merged until after the formation of CSX and was finally merged into the CSX in 1987. In this order WM into the B&O and then B&O into the C&O then C&O into CSX.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE For the record C&O did not owned the B&O..C&O controlled the B&O through stock.Later B&O controlled WM through stock. None of the roads merged until after the formation of CSX and was finally merged into the CSX in 1987. In this order WM into the B&O and then B&O into the C&O then C&O into CSX.
Larry, respectfully, that is just the semantics lawyers use in the corporate world. After the C&O "took control" they did just that. They dictated unified color schemes, moved equipment and locos back and forth, changed policies and procedures, etc.
Who really owns any publicly traded company? - but "control" is ownership.
There were important financial reasons in 1965 why the B&O was allowed to remain a separate company, among them tax exempt land grants that would expire if the company ceased to exist - by 1987 none of that was in play any longer.
Just my view........