I still run DC three cab control and on occasion, will run the six BLI DCC/sound engines I have....too late in my life....to change something that works for me. Grandkids like the sound....but I can live without it and don't have to worry about speed matching to run anything together.
Take Care!
Frank
LIONS run with DC. Everybody knows that the LION runs DC. LION has an automated layout, 14 miles of track, eight trains at once.
No Computers, No DC, No Throttles, No reversing switches, just trains running smoothly, stopping correctly. Nice service.
Visit the Route of the Broadway LION
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
My preference for plain-Jane DC, MZL system (which eliminates 75% of the cab-to-track selectors) is well documented on these forums.
Sheldon (Atlantic Central) runs a somewhat different version of MZL, with radio throttles. Again, plain DC.
I can live a long, happy life without sound, smoke and speed matching. My open frame motors seem to speed match themselves nicely on part throttle - and only a d'raiba with a death wish would ever go to full speed on a route with more curves than a Hawaiian Tropic competition. With half a dozen trains running at once, many on hidden track, sound would be a confusing distraction. As for smoke, I already have problems breathing...
AFAIK, all those packaged train sets come with DC power packs. Not holding my breath waiting to see DCC in a kid's gift train box.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I run a straight DC HO layout with 325 feet of mainline running. I've mated a Crest Revolution throttle to a MDC Controlmaster 20 powerpack. It's fused for 10 amps so plenty of power to run any lashup or multiple trains. The Revolution throttle gives me control for running and switching. Having some engines reverse wired allows for head-to-head meets. This arrangement combined with block wiring allows me to do without DCC.
I run plain old DC. With a single track main and just me running the layout, I don't need DCC. I have block toggle switches that let me turn off the juice to sidings, passing tracks and spurs, letting non-running trains to stay put while the train I have running on the main remains under control. I wired for two cab control back then, but I have never bothered to install the second cab.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Like Chuck said, I still run DC. DC with radio throttles, detection, signaling, CTC, ATC, intergrated turnout route control, walk around progessive cab selection (based on MZL), constant brightness headlights - but no sound.
Don't like onboard sound, my HiFi trained ears tell me it is just a 1967 nine transistor radio stuck betwwen to AM stations.....
Sheldon
I asked this simple question myself a couple years ago, sparked a debate over which was better. That wasn't the purpose, I just wondered. It was the only thread I ever started that I didn't read all the replies on, several pages. Hope that doesn't happen here
DCC is cool, yes indeed. But I opt for DC for the reasons above, and the cost of converting a bunch of old school BB and YB diesels. Dan
I use both.DCC for sound and DC for my older non DCC engines.
I use a MRC Tech 6 as power on my switching layout.The T-6 has a DC or DCC mode button with LED light to show you what the power mode is set for.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
DC user also.
Russell
Speaking of running DC vs DCC does anybody run their HO MTH locos with DCS?
I run strictly DC. Of my 105 locomotives, 4...by default, are factory DCC equipped and another is a second hand engine set up with DCC by the previous owner. Sound...we just won't go there. Don't like it.
Mark H
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
[quote user="NS1001"]
I have on a friends layout, it was the HO Erie Triplex and it ran great, it does run at speed step at 1 mph. Incredible slow speed performance.
Did the same with dcc also.
tomikawaTT and only a d'raiba with a death wish would ever go to full speed on a route with more curves than a Hawaiian Tropic competition.
and only a d'raiba with a death wish would ever go to full speed on a route with more curves than a Hawaiian Tropic competition.
Chuck,
Could you document this comparison with pictorial evidence?
.......lots and lots of it.....
please?
- Douglas
I run DC only too. My layout is in a spare bedroom that is 12 X 12 and the layout is L-shaped 10 X 12. I have a single track mainline with a passing siding, industries and just 5 blocks with 2 cabs. It is what I started modeling with years ago and what I am most comfortable with too.
Mostly I run DC because I like my vintage brass steam locomotives and I don't want to modify them too much to add DCC and all the updates it would take to change them over.
If I were to build a larger layout one day, I would probably park my brass and start over with DCC equipped locomotives, more for the operation possibilites over the sounds etc.
The LM&E is a three level railroad 13' x17',(lower level not completed). I run DC exclusivly from three ControlMaster20s with teathered throttles. Don't particularly like sound but to satisfy my Grandson, I have the MRC sound system for locomotives. Use it very seldom.
Would not consider going DCC. at this stage of the game, to costly to change, just shake my head at hearing of all the troubles with speed settings, decoders frying, etc etc. I understand block system wiring quite well. I been at it for many years. I DO NOT understand electronics very well and don't feel compelled to learn. So that does it.Also like buying two locomotives and getting the third one for free compared to DCC.
Johnboy out..................
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
I'm still all DC. When I finally have the space for a larger layout, I may add DCC to some of my stuff, but I have a few things that will always be DC.
_________________________________________________________________
Like others with single track mainlines, I too run solely on straight DC. yes, I have seen other layouts with DCC and been impressed with many of the features of DCC-though the sound cards seem to be quite monotonous. Probably won't switch over unless a lottery type windfall lands in my lap.
Don H.
dstarr I run plain old DC. With a single track main and just me running the layout, I don't need DCC. I have block toggle switches that let me turn off the juice to sidings, passing tracks and spurs, letting non-running trains to stay put while the train I have running on the main remains under control. I wired for two cab control back then, but I have never bothered to install the second cab.
My layout's set up essentially the same, although no wiring for two cab control. I run with a PWM throttle powered by a Controlmaster 20.
Wayne
Plain ol' DC and block control for me, too..
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
The Winneshiek & Western runs nicely on DC without modification of older locomotives, without having to isolate and re-wire turnout frogs, and without having to download 60+ page manuals off the internet that still don't answer basic questions. (I sampled DCC w/sound with that Bachmann 2-6-0, but for me, "no woofit".)
Bill
I am all over the map here.
When I run my HO trains I use DC.
For S I use DCC.
For Sn2 I use DC.
For On30 I use DCC.
For 2 rail O Scale I use DC.
For 3 rail O Gauge I use AC - except for my Protosound 3 switcher which I use DCC for.
For G I use DC.
S is my main scale, but I like to run the others from time to time.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER I am all over the map here. When I run my HO trains I use DC. For S I use DCC. For Sn2 I use DC. For On30 I use DCC. For 2 rail O Scale I use DC. For 3 rail O Gauge I use AC - except for my Protosound 3 switcher which I use DCC for. For G I use DC. S is my main scale, but I like to run the others from time to time. Enjoy Paul
Paul is a perfect example of how control system choice is linked to operational needs and goals, there is no one size fits all.
The responses to this thread echo stuff I have been saying for years.
If you are not into sound, and/or you are not into operating with a large group of operators, there is little incentive to use DCC.
Or, as in my case, if group operation is CTC based, DCC offers very few, if any, advantages over Computerized Block Control or Advanced Cab Control. For CTC operation a complex wiring infrastructure is required with all three.
Sound remains the controling factor. If you want the fullest onboard sound experiance in small scales, you most likely want/need DCC.
If sound is not on your radar, or is "secondary" in importance, or "basic" layout based sounds can meet your needs, then once again DCC has little to offer the lone operator.
The biggest irony of all is that sound is likely most effective as a one on one experiance between the operator and his locomotive - after that it just degrades into "noise".
Since I am WAY more interested in the "action" of multiple trains, even as a lone operator, and more into being the "dispatcher" or a railfan, rather than being the engineer, sound is of only passing interest to me.
When I get to that stage, I plan to experiment with some layout based sound effects and "background" sounds, but have no interest in onboard sound in HO.
No - I run DC and have a friend that had a hug B & O layout that is also only DC.
I am a confirmed DCC user.
I have never set a CV. Except when I first got my system I have never looked at an owners manual. All my locos were former DC models which I converted with $12 decoders from NCE (60 in all). I have never had one go bad. I hate sound. I like the independant control of locos, no need to switch tracks off or blocks, I like consisting and I like being able to control lighting effects.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
modelmaker51 I am a confirmed DCC user. I have never set a CV. Except when I first got my system I have never looked at an owners manual. All my locos were former DC models which I converted with $12 decoders from NCE (60 in all). I have never had one go bad. I hate sound. I like the independant control of locos, no need to switch tracks off or blocks, I like consisting and I like being able to control lighting effects.
Now you've set a cat among the pigeons!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
OK, fine.
I just said as few posts ago that one size does not fit all.
And out of more than a dozen DC users who responded only a few complained about the complexities of DCC or CV's, or whatever.
But I knew it was just a matter of time before someone from the DCC camp spoke up to tell us in some way or another how wonderful DCC is and how much we are "missing", and that its not "as hard as we think". Guess what? We don't care.
I have used DCC for many, many, hours on the layouts of a number of friends. I even helped design and build some of those layouts. I full well understand how easy - or hard, DCC can be depending on your needs and wants. I know ALL the features and benefits of DCC.
My layout is DC, but there are no "block toggles" - imagine that!
Actually the DC layouts of a number of those who have responed to this thread do not have any block toggles.
So much for that argument.
Consisting - well in some situations that is a valuable feature of DCC - BUT Dr. Wayne has a popular video of a doubled headed train with a pusher - on his no block toggle DC controlled layout - simply amazing!
I have no problem double and triple heading steam locos of various wheel arrangements and brands on my layout without any speed matching or consisting.
And most all my diesel powered trains are pulled by three and four unit lashups - all units powered - again with no issues.
So if being able to run one loco up to another and couple to it is the primary feature DCC would add to my layout, no thanks I will skip the $3000 decoder investment my fleet would require as well as all the additional work it would involve and just do that with a few $2 kill switches in the engine terminal.
Not to mention the fact that it would upset my simple 5 button throttle operation and replace it with something with too many buttons and displays I can't see.
Lights - again, for some, depending on the era modeled, lights can be an important feature. And if that is you, DCC is for you.
But Dr. Wayne takes the working headlights out of his locos. and I model a time when it was a simple "turn it on while you are running", and even that policy was a pretty new idea in the daytime.
So again, I will skip buying and installing 130 decoders or boosters for 300 plus feet of track.
And I would still need "blocks" anyway because what is important to ME is CTC and signaling - DCC or DC - CTC and signaling takes wire and infrastructure.....infrastructure above and beyond independent control of the trains.
The real railroads have spend a lot of time and money for a very long time now to make sure two trains do not occupy the same space at the same time - I feel the same way about my models......my layout has detection, signals, CTC and ATC. DC can meet those goals just as well as DCC, and for a lot less money.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd out of more than a dozen DC users who responded only a few complained about the complexities of DCC or CV's, or whatever.
Allow me to share this tidbit about CVs. I use the CVs that enhances the operation of my 3 DCC/Sound locomotives.They are momentum,speed step and start volt.When I tire of sound F8 works wonders by silencing the sound.
However..
The majority of the time this straight DC switcher is used.
modelmaker51I am a confirmed DCC user.
Modelmaker51, I'm sorry that you took the bait on this topic. We should have just let the thread peter out.
I run common rail 2 cab control using 2 MRC 2400 Tech2 packs. I also have a hand held which can be substituted for one of the packs using a toggle.
Two loops allow one train to circle the layout while I can switch on the other main. 40 engines x whatever $$ for a good decoder is more than I want to spend as i do not care for sound.
Jim
maxman modelmaker51 I am a confirmed DCC user. Modelmaker51, I'm sorry that you took the bait on this topic. We should have just let the thread peter out.
modelmaker51 I am a confirmed DCC user.
Took the bait?
I have a thought, if there was a thread titled "Which DCC system do you use?", would it be appropriate for me to go into a dissertation on my version of DC MZL with wireless throttles?
I think not.
PS - but that door has never swug both ways on this forum.
Take Care All!
Baloney! If you would ever go back and read the original post, you would see that there never was a question as to which DC (or whatever) system does anyone use. Further, the OP asks if he is the only one who still uses DC. I presume that opens the door to comment from anyone who might use an alternate method.
And I've gone back and read all the previous posts, I believe pretty carefully. No one said anything about how good DCC was. The only comment was from someone who said what his experience had been. I guess that's not allowed, either.
zstripe Take Care All! Frank
And, yes, this I totally agree with.
My point was simply that DCC is only as complex (or expensive) as you make it, the same is of course true for DC.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL My layout is DC, but there are no "block toggles" - imagine that! Actually the DC layouts of a number of those who have responed to this thread do not have any block toggles.
How do you control multiple engines independantly of each other on the DC layout without separate electrical blocks and/or toggles or rotary switches?
My layout is DC and totally Old School. Atlas controllers and block switches. No sound, it's a large if simple switching layout designed for one engine operations. The engines are all small 2 and 3 axle units. DCC just doesn't make sense for my needs.
Have fun with your trains
I started this thread just because I wanted to see what others are running just DC. Anybody can respond but I don't like condescending responses that my way or your way is the only thing we should be doing Things.
I like my trains running thru beautiful scenery, I don't do operations or use DCC. That is my decision and no matter what anybody says that is the way I will do it. If your doing something different, go for it and have fun, I know I am.
Also also please be respectful of everybody's responses whether you agree with them or not. Also unless you have something to add to the conversation that is positive please post somewhere else.
dave
riogrande5761How do you control multiple engines independantly of each other on the DC layout without separate electrical blocks and/or toggles or rotary switches?
Back in the day, a system was created for advanced cab control. It was called MZL, which stands for master zone layout. Not sure if you have access to the MR archives but the FEB 74 issue has a article by the designer, Ed Ravenscroft with more articles to follow.
DC here. Like several other modelers who posted, I have a large collection of brass locos (about the only way I can get representative power for the railroad I model), and it would take a major investment to convert them all to DCC. I'm happy with block control and plenty of power from my ControlMaster 20. I have a couple of sound locomotives, but because of the extra voltage required to run them on straight DC, I can't doublehead them with any of my straight DC locos. They're there just mainly to make the non-hobbyist members of my family go "ooh" and "aah" when they come down for a swim party and wander into the garage to watch me "Play with the trains."
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I run DC via a Train Engineer setup though I have the stuff to convert 4 engines to dead rail that I can run at the same time.
I also am straight DC. Can't afford DCC nor the hassle.
Another DC only. Three wireless throttles with manual block control.
Dave
I run DC with cab contrlol and Controlmaster 20s and other high capacity throttles.I have a lot of Hobbytowns as well as newer locomotives all DC only .I have a few Bachmann sound units that run on my DC. The sound is ok and a little entertaining until I get tired of it. I have run other sound DCC units on other layouts ,I think the sound is highly overated. I don't have the money or the time or interest in converting to DCC. I would consider DCC if I were just starting out.Very happy with my toggles, rotary switches and Controlmaster 20s.
Ron High
Ron HighI run DC with cab control and Controlmaster 20s and other high capacity throttles.
The CM20 is IMHO is the best DC system money can buy and I still have mine I bought in the early 90s and I still like the control and feel of its throttle.
Oddly I tried the CM 10 back in the mid 70s and didn't care for it and yet it has the same abilities as the DCC CVs I use for engine control today..
DC, for the most part. I use an Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless throttle to help me cover my 35 foot long layout. Since the layout is one big block and has 2 runarounds that are both used during switching operations, unused locos are parked on a stub spur and isolated with a simple on/off kill switch.
I use wireless DCC to run onboard sound locos, which I do in moderation, and adjust the CVs to about 35% sound level.
But silent running is done with DC.
DC here. Don't require fancy throttles, just plain MRC power packs & a bunch of toggles for me.
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
BRAKIE Ron High I run DC with cab control and Controlmaster 20s and other high capacity throttles. The CM20 is IMHO is the best DC system money can buy and I still have mine I bought in the early 90s and I still like the control and feel of its throttle. Oddly I tried the CM 10 back in the mid 70s and didn't care for it and yet it has the same abilities as the DCC CVs I use for engine control today..
Ron High I run DC with cab control and Controlmaster 20s and other high capacity throttles.
Yes the CM20 is a great throttle/system.
But once I tried the Aristo Train Engineer I was hooked on wireless - and on pushbuttons rather than a knob.
And the pulse width modulated motor control is superb.
Even with a small layout, I would never want to go back to a fixed location or thethered throttle.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes the CM20 is a great throttle/system. But once I tried the Aristo Train Engineer I was hooked on wireless - and on pushbuttons rather than a knob. And the pulse width modulated motor control is superb. Even with a small layout, I would never want to go back to a fixed location or thethered throttle. Sheldon
I also tried the Aristo set-up and liked it....were I to be 15yrs younger, I would be using them. I'll settle for my three CM20's for My three cab control, double main line....I can when I want...sneak up on a train, running on one of the mains and jump off a siding and do some switching and never stop the mains running. I do it to the Grandkids all the time....Huh? They say...how do You do that? Funny part is, my youngest Grand daughter can do it....the guys are still learning. LOL I only use the CM20's to run the trains....everything else, has it's own power Trans. sply. I've been a lone wolf though....the kids, except for three are teens and college already out of the eight Grandkids....where the heck does the time go??
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut once I tried the Aristo Train Engineer I was hooked on wireless - and on pushbuttons rather than a knob.
I never seen that system but,I do like the wireless DC throttle idea.
Radio control which is just another control system like DCC.
LION has automated controls. 1 block, 8 trains, fully automated: No throttles, no reversing switches, just lots and lots of relays and resistors. Not a project for a normal model railroad, but then the LION *never* claimed to be normal. Him builds subway layout. Subways do not run backwards. Layout is designed for "normal operation" thus there is no flexibility built into the layout to allow for work zones, or other work trains blocking the flow of the passenger parade. I do have work trains, but they are run "at night" when the railroad is on a 30 minute headway, and even then the "money Train" or the "Trash Train" will get in the way of a pax train. So be it. This is New York City, what do you want for your dime? To live forever?
ROAR
BroadwayLion riogrande5761 How do you control multiple engines independantly of each other on the DC layout without separate electrical blocks and/or toggles or rotary switches? Radio control which is just another control system like DCC. LION has automated controls. 1 block, 8 trains, fully automated: No throttles, no reversing switches, just lots and lots of relays and resistors. Not a project for a normal model railroad, but then the LION *never* claimed to be normal. Him builds subway layout. Subways do not run backwards. Layout is designed for "normal operation" thus there is no flexibility built into the layout to allow for work zones, or other work trains blocking the flow of the passenger parade. I do have work trains, but they are run "at night" when the railroad is on a 30 minute headway, and even then the "money Train" or the "Trash Train" will get in the way of a pax train. So be it. This is New York City, what do you want for your dime? To live forever? ROAR
riogrande5761 How do you control multiple engines independantly of each other on the DC layout without separate electrical blocks and/or toggles or rotary switches?
Not exactly - the radio control throttles we are talking about do NOT have receivers in the locos. It is just a wireless throttle connected to the track with a "base station" receiver.
I too use relays to automate turnout route control and cab asignments, operate signal logic and to allow redundent controls to be placed at multiple locations - several hundred relays.... Sheldon
I too use relays to automate turnout route control and cab asignments, operate signal logic and to allow redundent controls to be placed at multiple locations - several hundred relays....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Not exactly - the radio control throttles we are talking about do NOT have receivers in the locos. It is just a wireless throttle connected to the track with a "base station" receiver. Sheldon
Crest Train Engineer now has 2 systems. One using the base station, but another one that uses radio receivers in the locomotives - G currently available, HO is in testing with a beta set available.
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL Not exactly - the radio control throttles we are talking about do NOT have receivers in the locos. It is just a wireless throttle connected to the track with a "base station" receiver. Sheldon Crest Train Engineer now has 2 systems. One using the base station, but another one that uses radio receivers in the locomotives - G currently available, HO is in testing with a beta set available. Enjoy Paul
Yes, I am well aware of all their products, and they have been used for onboard radio in large scale for many years, but most all the references to them in this thread are users of trackside versions.
Me.
I run DC on my layout and on our Club layout. It would get kind of expensive outfitting all my engines.
DAVID FORTNEY I started this thread just because I wanted to see what others are running just DC. Anybody can respond but I don't like condescending responses that my way or your way is the only thing we should be doing Things. I like my trains running thru beautiful scenery, I don't do operations or use DCC. That is my decision and no matter what anybody says that is the way I will do it. If your doing something different, go for it and have fun, I know I am. Also also please be respectful of everybody's responses whether you agree with them or not. Also unless you have something to add to the conversation that is positive please post somewhere else. dave
I agree, you can like/dislike which ever one you choose! I like my DCC layout and can fully understand those of you who like DC as that was how I started and I can still run my layout DC if I want.
My opinion is: Nobody really cares if you dislike one; or, the other! Follow your own interests as that is what this hobby is all about!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
A DC user here, for all the reasons mentioned above. However, I have nothing against DCC; the majority of my local fellow hobbyists are on DCC. For me, its a needs thing. With a small switching layout, my no-frills, old school system is just right. I'm using common rail block control (11 blocks in all), MRC Model 55 tethered throttles with 2 MRC Tech II model 2400 power packs. Works for me, but not necessarily for someone else.
I run dc. I know most everything coming out is dcc and people are converting over the older items to dcc whenever possible, but if it aint broke why fix on somethings. I have had lot say i need to go over to dcc but I am on the fence.
Sean, the unknown train travler,
I use only Antique Direct Current (or ADC if you will ) here too.
My layout has 4 cabs and is strictly DC and will stay that way! Cramming engines full of decoders generates a large expense depending on the amount of engines and immediately restricts them from running on a DC layout. I currently have over 600 engines. I've been to op sessions on DCC layouts and have never seen such non-prototypical railroading. Most have no dispatchers and operators throw mainline switches on their own. That is totally rediculous! I retired after 44 years on the RR. If there was such a thing as an HO or any other scale FRA, these layouts would be shut down.
DAVID FORTNEYdave
Rick Abramson I've been to op sessions on DCC layouts and have never seen such non-prototypical railroading. Most have no dispatchers and operators throw mainline switches on their own. That is totally rediculous!
I've been to op sessions on DCC layouts and have never seen such non-prototypical railroading. Most have no dispatchers and operators throw mainline switches on their own. That is totally rediculous!
Rick AbramsonI've been to op sessions on DCC layouts and have never seen such non-prototypical railroading.
What´s that got to do with DCC?
Actually, DCC allows for more prototypical operation, as you can select your acceleration/deceleration parameters to simulate actual load. DCC puts you in the driver´s seat and not on a switchboard to direct the power.
I was hoping to read new "excuses" here for not going down the DCC route, but I have not found any. While it is perfectly to stay with DC if you have a large engine roster and/or an extensive layout, which is all wired-up for DC, I can´t understand those folks, who are just starting and stay with the horse-drawn buggy instead of driving a Porsche. Entry-level DCC command systems are not much more expensive than a decent power pack, and the cost of decoders (w/o sound) can be easily offset by the wire and switches you don´t have to buy if you want multiple train operation on your layout. Wiring a DCC layout is rather simple and you will have your trains up and running in a lot less time and effort.
Sir Madog Rick Abramson I've been to op sessions on DCC layouts and have never seen such non-prototypical railroading. What´s that got to do with DCC? Actually, DCC allows for more prototypical operation, as you can select your acceleration/deceleration parameters to simulate actual load. DCC puts you in the driver´s seat and not on a switchboard to direct the power. I was hoping to read new "excuses" here for not going down the DCC route, but I have not found any. While it is perfectly to stay with DC if you have a large engine roster and/or an extensive layout, which is all wired-up for DC, I can´t understand those folks, who are just starting and stay with the horse-drawn buggy instead of driving a Porsche. Entry-level DCC command systems are not much more expensive than a decent power pack, and the cost of decoders (w/o sound) can be easily offset by the wire and switches you don´t have to buy if you want multiple train operation on your layout. Wiring a DCC layout is rather simple and you will have your trains up and running in a lot less time and effort.
Rick Abramson I've been to op sessions on DCC layouts and have never seen such non-prototypical railroading.
Ulrich,
You are missing the point, as do many.
DCC puts you you more in the engineers seat - true. It allows you to be wrong, run red signals, move without proper clearance, etc.
Some modelers prefer to simulate the whole "process" of train movement on signal/CTC controlled trackage. That is a separate infrastructure above and beyond "making the train move".
DCC adds nothing to make that infrastructure easier to simulate/implement and well designed DC CTC/signal controlled layouts approach DCC in terms of the engineers "experiance" - without the cost - because you need the CTC/signaling infrastructure anyway, that same network can be used to direct track power at no measureable additional cost.
All of this applies mainly to large or moderate sized layouts designed to simulate the multi train movements on busy Class I railroads, typical of the US Northeast corridor and other high density locations.
It does not apply to the back woods branch line, etc.
To best understand it, one should read the articles in MR from the 70's about MZL control and about Bruce Chubb's original signal/control system.
Sure you have CTC and signaling with DCC - but having DCC will not save you one wire, or complexity over building a similar CTC/signaling system with DC.
So for some of us, CTC and signaling is way more important than the other features DCC brings to the table. And DCC adds potential complications some don't want or need.
Entry level DCC is worthless in my mind. My DC trackside radio throttles are better. My excuse is still the same, decoders/installs for 130 locos is money and time I don't want to spend that would add very little to my operational goals.
I don't have any interest in being the engineer of one loco on a 1/4 mile of branch line - I am the head operations chief for a busy sub division on eight miles of busy Class I railroad where train pass any given spot ever 5 minutes.
Sheldon,
isn´t it a great hobby! It offers so much for just about any interest! You´d like to be the chief of operations - great. I prefer to be an engineer, so that´s why DCC is my choice, even for the little layout I eventually will have, once I have overcome the limitations of a recent stroke.
Sir Madog Sheldon, isn´t it a great hobby! It offers so much for just about any interest! You´d like to be the chief of operations - great. I prefer to be an engineer, so that´s why DCC is my choice, even for the little layout I eventually will have, once I have overcome the limitations of a recent stroke.
Yes, it is.
And I have said over and over, for many modelers, and their specific goals DCC is the best choice. But it is far from the best choice for EVERY set of goals, especially when viewed from cost/benefit point of view.
Wish you well on your recovery.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sir Madog Sheldon, isn´t it a great hobby! It offers so much for just about any interest! You´d like to be the chief of operations - great. I prefer to be an engineer, so that´s why DCC is my choice, even for the little layout I eventually will have, once I have overcome the limitations of a recent stroke. Yes, it is. And I have said over and over, for many modelers, and their specific goals DCC is the best choice. But it is far from the best choice for EVERY set of goals, especially when viewed from cost/benefit point of view. Wish you well on your recovery. Sheldon
Sheldon - I think that sentence sums it up nicely!
Bob Schuknecht Rick Abramson I've been to op sessions on DCC layouts and have never seen such non-prototypical railroading. Most have no dispatchers and operators throw mainline switches on their own. That is totally rediculous! Are they having fun? If so, maybe that is more important than following FRA rules.
Are they having fun? If so, maybe that is more important than following FRA rules.
Yes, everyone's idea of fun is different. I find being the engineer rather boring, much more interesting to be the dispatcher, or railroad vice president, or a railfan.
My layout is designed for good display running and group CTC/signaled operation - no DCC needed in either case.
I HOPE to run DC only soon on a "real" layout. I do have a tiny portable layout that runs DC only, from choice of a power pack, or a 9 volt battery when taking it to the wilderness. I dismantled my old "big" layout several years ago, and haven't gotten the room cleared yet to get the new layout ready to run at all. I have DC locos I bought 45 years ago that I am going to paint for my chosen RR and fit with MTL couplers some day. So I am not about to change to DCC. (Unless I get things halfway going and decide I want to...)
I run DC, AC, or DCC with a Deltang R/C receivers.
Bernd
New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds
protolancer(at)kingstonemodelworks(dot)com
Rick,Ha! Not for nothing, man, but you could sell off a few of those 600 locos and easily afford the cost of DCC installations for the rest of them...and for your layout...and for several other people's layouts. What's the going rate for an EP-5? As you know, I'm a member of a large club (and Operations Chairman), and I don't expect Operators to be 100% realistic at all times. Why? Because it's a hobby, not a job. I'm lucky if I can get them to stop at a red signal. Sure, I want them to follow the club rules, but those rules are kept simple (about 2 pages of text) because there's a fine line between "fun" and "work". Just remember, Rick, the railroad had to pay you to work everyday. In our hobby, the "workers" have to pay to work, and maybe once a month to run trains. There's only so many rules that people will follow before they tell you to take a hike. My next door neighbor walked me through a real TTO experience on his layout once. It took a while. "To C&E Extra 1201 o-n-e-t-w-o-n-a-u-g-h-t-o-n-e, at Attleboro a-t-t-l-e-b-o-r-o...", etc. while I filled in the Form, then I had to repeat it back to him, etc. No way would my club put up with that.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3 Rick,Ha! Not for nothing, man, but you could sell off a few of those 600 locos and easily afford the cost of DCC installations for the rest of them...and for your layout...and for several other people's layouts. What's the going rate for an EP-5? As you know, I'm a member of a large club (and Operations Chairman), and I don't expect Operators to be 100% realistic at all times. Why? Because it's a hobby, not a job. I'm lucky if I can get them to stop at a red signal. Sure, I want them to follow the club rules, but those rules are kept simple (about 2 pages of text) because there's a fine line between "fun" and "work". Just remember, Rick, the railroad had to pay you to work everyday. In our hobby, the "workers" have to pay to work, and maybe once a month to run trains. There's only so many rules that people will follow before they tell you to take a hike. My next door neighbor walked me through a real TTO experience on his layout once. It took a while. "To C&E Extra 1201 o-n-e-t-w-o-n-a-u-g-h-t-o-n-e, at Attleboro a-t-t-l-e-b-o-r-o...", etc. while I filled in the Form, then I had to repeat it back to him, etc. No way would my club put up with that. Paul A. Cutler III
And that is the beauty of a system like mine. It does not "require" the engineers to know a lot about prototype operation, and the sytem is easy for new engineers to learn, especially in dispatcher mode. The throttles are simple, and if they over run their authorized territory, their train simply stops - nothing bad happens.
Sure the dispatcher must know the layout, but even his duties have been "streamlined" compared with the prototype. But it still has a very prototype feel for those who appreciate that.
As for selling off engines to fund DCC - I've recieved that comment as well in the past - but it takes all 130 locos/powered units on the ACR to protect the schedules of the 25-30 train in the session.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes, everyone's idea of fun is different. I find being the engineer rather boring, much more interesting to be the dispatcher, or railroad vice president, or a railfan.
Sheldon,Just for fun(underscore that) I seriously doubt if many could switch cars on my ISL using one of my DCC/Sound or DC locomotives without getting into trouble.
Why is that?
I have momentum,speed step and start voltage CV set in my DCC/Sound locomotives where one doesn't simply start or stop by twisting the knob.
I can do the same settings in the DC mode of my MRC Tech 6.I program the T-6 by adjusting momentum and start volt and every DC engine I own will respond to those settings and again there's no simple knob twisting to stop or start...
Like a real engineer you have the weight of the cars and their momentum to overcome after the switchman gives a "that will do" or a stop hand signal and plan your coupling where it's a "kiss" coupling and not a crash coupling..Starting a move is slow as well.
That type of switching realism isn't for everybody but,its load of fun for me.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, everyone's idea of fun is different. I find being the engineer rather boring, much more interesting to be the dispatcher, or railroad vice president, or a railfan. Sheldon,Just for fun(underscore that) I seriously doubt if many could switch cars on my ISL using one of my DCC/Sound or DC locomotives without getting into trouble. Why is that? I have momentum,speed step and start voltage CV set in my DCC/Sound locomotives where one doesn't simply start or stop by twisting the knob. I can do the same settings in the DC mode of my MRC Tech 6.I program the T-6 by adjusting momentum and start volt and every DC engine I own will respond to those settings and again there's no simple knob twisting to stop or start... Like a real engineer you have the weight of the cars and their momentum to overcome after the switchman gives a "that will do" or a stop hand signal and plan your coupling where it's a "kiss" coupling and not a crash coupling..Starting a move is slow as well. That type of switching realism isn't for everybody but,its load of fun for me.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, everyone's idea of fun is different. I find being the engineer rather boring, much more interesting to be the dispatcher, or railroad vice president, or a railfan.
Larry,
Things are similar here. The Aristo throttles have a momenum that is preset at one of five levels. I have mine set on the lowest, or no momentum in theory, but in reality there is still a small momentum.
The push button controls for "faster" and "slower" have "ramp up/ramp down" speed even set on zero momentum. So the effect is similar to what you describe.
So just like you, and real life, you must "learn" the feel of each loco for switching, with and without a load.
A little off topic, but in the early 50's in grammer school, Chgo. Bridgeport to be precise, I lived on a dead-end st. next to a Industrial area, which was less than a 1/2 mile from my house, right next to the South branch of the Chgo river, which had a gigantic covered grain elevator, which got the grain from covered river barges, in turn they loaded it into 40ft boxcars, many boxcars, the one's with the doors partially open and wooden grain planks covering 3/4 of the opening. Also there were many tank cars for the other industries, animal fat etc. Anyway to make a long story short..the Illinois Central with RS1's/2's used to switch that yard at nite mostly, starting at 9:00pm. I remember laying in bed and listening to the RS turbo's going to full power and then stop, back to idle and then count how long it would take to hear the bang when the cars they cut would hit the ones that were standing on the track. I guess that was switching on the fly and classification, another set of engines would come by in the morning and do more of a precise switching. I got to know the day crew very well and at times, if they were not real busy, they would let me ride in the cab. I remember a water cooler in the cab...for drinking and a very heavy oder of diesel fuel and exhaust. To this day...I will never forget those experiences. When I lived nearer to downtown Chgo. in the 40's. I saw 0-6-0's and 0-8-0's doing about the same thing...a lot more noisier though. Memories....
I also run DC only, mainly for the cost and simplicity of wiring. I am the sole operator, no complicated switching or scheduling - I just like to see a train running through my scenery. I use the Stapleton PWM throttle, and am not impressed by the scale-sized sound on most layouts. No matter how 'realistic' it sounds, it's still sounds 'small'.
Sheldon,My point to Rick (especially Rick...we're both in the NHRHTA and I've known him personally for years) is that using the "I've got hundreds of locos so I can't afford DCC!" argument is not justifiable. The argument used is that the lack of money is the big reason why one won't go DCC. My counter-argument is that folks who have hundreds of locos have the resources to go DCC, it's just tied up in physical assets.The real argument is that they aren't willing to go DCC for other reasons. And perhaps one of those reasons is that they prefer collecting locos over learning DCC. Instead of saying that, however, it's easier to just say "I can't afford it."
And there's nothing wrong with using DC, DCC, DCS, or AC (for all I care). But I do wish folks would be a bit more in depth in their reasoning. Sheldon, we've been down this road a lot, so I know why you're DC, but Rick is rather infamous in the NHRHTA for being anti-DCC (the catcalls from the peanut gallery at the various RPM shows have been amusing about the whole thing). So, yes, I'm yanking his chain a bit with this one...
Oh, and FWIW, I hated the Aristo radio throttle interface when I tried them out. The buttons are hard on one's fingers, or at least on mine. Give me a knob every time.
Interesting subject and good comments. I've read all the posts to this point. I'm DC all the way with a dozen or so brass engines, mostly steam and some plastic 1st generation diesels (HO). I've been putting my double track dogbone and branchline together for about 40 years; 5 years on, five years off...at this rate you can bet I'm not going DCC, might be a good choice for a newbie. I have a bunch of hobbies that divert me while the light on the horizon is steadily growing dimmer.
Ed
Paul3 Sheldon,My point to Rick (especially Rick...we're both in the NHRHTA and I've known him personally for years) is that using the "I've got hundreds of locos so I can't afford DCC!" argument is not justifiable. The argument used is that the lack of money is the big reason why one won't go DCC. My counter-argument is that folks who have hundreds of locos have the resources to go DCC, it's just tied up in physical assets.The real argument is that they aren't willing to go DCC for other reasons. And perhaps one of those reasons is that they prefer collecting locos over learning DCC. Instead of saying that, however, it's easier to just say "I can't afford it." And there's nothing wrong with using DC, DCC, DCS, or AC (for all I care). But I do wish folks would be a bit more in depth in their reasoning. Sheldon, we've been down this road a lot, so I know why you're DC, but Rick is rather infamous in the NHRHTA for being anti-DCC (the catcalls from the peanut gallery at the various RPM shows have been amusing about the whole thing). So, yes, I'm yanking his chain a bit with this one... Oh, and FWIW, I hated the Aristo radio throttle interface when I tried them out. The buttons are hard on one's fingers, or at least on mine. Give me a knob every time. Paul A. Cutler III
I don't mind a knob - if it has a stopping and starting point.......
Don't understand why the buttons would be hard on your fingers? You only push them to make changes in speed or direction?
I did not know if I would like it, a guy let me borrow one for a month - I was hooked.
Again, one of my big issues with DCC is all the handhelds are poorly designed in my view. But I do have built in prejudice since I have no interest in turning on lights, playing sounds, operating turnouts, and so forth.
I don't want or need two throttle wheels, 32 buttons and display I can't even see.
I can hold my Aristo throttle in one hand and without looking - go faster - go slower - go east - go west - stop in emergency.
Simple is better.
Paul, just to refresh, my biggest reason for not going DCC is lack of interest in sound, and little need for its other features. I could "aford it", I choose not to - it would be a big expense on my layout for very little gain.
With CTC and signaing you need a complex wiring infrastructure anyway - that can deliver the track power at no extra cost.
I don't like onboard sound in HO.
I'm not into helper service.
I model the 50's - loco lighting is not an issue - no ditch lights or other fancy lighting rules.
I model the 50's - most diesels still ran as matched sets.
I model the 50's - all my "plastic brass" steam locos that I would want to double/triple head, do that just fine on DC without consisting or speed matching - just like my fleet of diesels does.
So what would I gain from DCC - more flexible operation in the engine terminal - pretty expensive upgrade - easily $3,000 for me.
A handfull of $2 kill switches handles that problem.
And the biggest "cost" of DCC for me would be the time to install 130 decoders and possibly have to speed match dozens of sets of locos - that time is worth way more than the $3000 for decoders and throttles.
This discussion has remained friendly and respectful, even as some varying opinions have been presented. Hats off to ya gents!
I doubt DC will ever go away completely. I've enjoyed hearing the input since the last time this subject went this big, a couple years ago Dan
Hi, I am a DC railroader. There are several reasons I am staying with it as well. I have a very small amount of space available for my hobby (no basement in my house) so I have a 4' x 6' layout. Although I have managed to create a nice layout with the small space, I don't really see how DCC could be any advantage since all of my trains have a single locomotive and the average length is only 5-8 pieces of rolling stock. The only thing DCC might add for me is sound but since my layout is in a small spare bedroom next to all the other bedroooms, I don't thing my family would appreciate it since I am a nocturnal railroader. The other thing keeping me away from DCC is cost, I have a limited hobby budget (I run mostly Athearn RTR, Walthers Mainline and Atlas Trainman). I am happy with DC and plan to stick with it.
I have been DC since the mid 60s and I have so much invested, that adding DCC would add to the expense. Since I do not run on anyone else's layout, I am happy with DC and block selectors.
I agree with other posters on this subject that I have seen a lot of DCC operating layouts run stupidly, as if they were racing their trains. Model railroading can be a lot of fun, if you just run like real railroads do.
Staying with DC.
What does running trains stupidly, ie fast, have to do with wether or not the control system is DC or DCC? I believe the trains will go equally fast regardless of power source. Perhaps a shot at DCC users is more to the point. Which system to use is a personel choice based on the needs of the owner of the railroad. both systems allow for the railroad to be run the way the owner wishes.
Floridaflyer - you are off base. I have no issue with those that use DCC. But do it prototypically or at least not toy train like. At a show that happens annually, I see trains being run as if they were racing, ON THE SAME TRACK, SAME DIRECTION. In normal operation, two trains should not occupy the same block. What I saw was the train following the other one very close to the front trains caboose. Do all do that? probably not. But doing it at all is running trains stupidly and DCC allows that to happen. Any club should have rules.
Staying with DC as it is easy to understand. I have read the DCC column in MR and while it is interesting, I rather stay with something I understand as I am more interested in running my trains than getting screwed up in some technological nightmare that takes away from the hobby I enjoy. MY OPINION.
Ted
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I run DC only for two reasons: my railroad is already over budget and does not have the funds in their capital improvements budget for DCC conversions....and the second and most important reason: I absolutly love toggle switches.
theodorefisk Floridaflyer - you are off base. I have no issue with those that use DCC. But do it prototypically or at least not toy train like. At a show that happens annually, I see trains being run as if they were racing, ON THE SAME TRACK, SAME DIRECTION. In normal operation, two trains should not occupy the same block. What I saw was the train following the other one very close to the front trains caboose. Do all do that? probably not. But doing it at all is running trains stupidly and DCC allows that to happen. Any club should have rules. Staying with DC as it is easy to understand. I have read the DCC column in MR and while it is interesting, I rather stay with something I understand as I am more interested in running my trains than getting screwed up in some technological nightmare that takes away from the hobby I enjoy. MY OPINION. Ted
This will always be a bigger debate than DC vs DCC.
Do you run your trains "just for fun" or do you run them to simulate the actions of a real railroad?
Obviously some do both at different times, and some are very much in one camp or the other.
There is no doubt there are those from the "old school" of this hobby who are not thrilled that HO scale has taken on a new group of people who approach the hobby in a way similar to how O gauge Hi Rail is normally approached.
That is a more casual, collector, RTR, build the layout and "run for fun" with mixed and matched road names and eras, etc. And with no interest in, or real knowledge of, prototypical operation.
And, it is likely that this new group of collector/RTR user/casual operator types are one of two primary groups using DCC in HO. Why? That same group is likely to also be big fans of onboard sound.
So, without meaning to offend, some in the "old school" see that kind of operation, as "toy like" - and they build and operate models, they don't buy and run toys.
I'm not on either side here, I'm just pointing out how this age old debate about the nature of the hobby plays into the DC/DCC question.
It also has direct bearing on why some on the DCC side have trouble understanding why some of us don't switch to DCC, or why we would want a complex system like my signaling/CTC centered Advanced Cab Control.
Some of us in the old school want some real life type structure and restriction on how and where the trains run - advanced DC systems do that.
I said very early in this thread - the real railroads have gone to great care and expense to prevent two trains from occupying the same space at the same time - I want to simulate that with my models.
So the both of you that I quoted above need to simply understand that different people have different interests and goals for their models and modeling.
And control systems are best when matched to the goals of the layout owner.
None of what I said above imples that ALL DCC users have no interest in prototype operation - so lets not go there.
As for clubs, especially clubs with big club owned layouts, they are a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there - been there, done that, never again.
theodorefisk I see trains being run as if they were racing, ON THE SAME TRACK, SAME DIRECTION. In normal operation, two trains should not occupy the same block. What I saw was the train following the other one very close to the front trains caboose. Do all do that? probably not. But doing it at all is running trains stupidly and DCC allows that to happen. Any club should have rules.
Yeah that can happen in DC as well, and it did happen on probably the exact layout you are speaking of before they switched to DCC. Train shows are for the entertainment of the public, not prototypical operation. Children want to see trains running, not trains doing switching or sitting on a passing siding. I would like nothing more than to give up the 2 mainlines on my modules and operate with TT and TO, but you lose the public interest.
When my club switched from direct current modules to a DCC system, the club members ripped out a mile or more of copper wire that was no longer required.
I can see for someone who has a home layout that is DC there being no reason to switch. As for a new layout, if its a really small shelf switching layout I could go either way. Anything larger than 2 or 3 blocks and you spend the same money on a starter DCC system and $20 decoders for each locomotive as you did for all the switches, rheostats, copper wire and powersupply for DC.
One of our club members did a partial DCC conversion. He added an extra block off of an unused selector dial position that connects to the whole layout. He can still run his older DC only locomotives or he can unlock the potential of DCC/sound if he wishes for operational purposes. Additionally the DC locomotives are much less sensitive to dirty tracks so he uses those to run track cleaning cars before op sessions. Best of both worlds if you ask me.
Anything larger than 2 or 3 blocks and you spend the same money on a starter DCC system and $20 decoders for each locomotive as you did for all the switches, rheostats, copper wire and powersupply for DC.
Perfectly true for a new guy starting out, but not true for an experianced modeler who wants signaling and CTC. DCC does nothing to reduce the cost or complexity of signaling and CTC. Signaling requires blocks......and miles of wire.......no mater how the trains get their "go/stop" commands.
Advanced CTC based DC systems use the same infrastructure for both track power and detection, and can intergrate turnout control, collision avoidance, and other features at little or no additional cost.
Because, proper signaling requires knowing where trains are, and how turnouts are aligned, that same matrix of wiring can be used to direct power and reduce the needed number of "track power input controls" in a DC system.
Sheldon,I also prefer the pots over the encoders myself, but I don't have that much trouble with the encoders. In fact, I recently replaced the original factory knob on my DT400R with a larger knob from an old rotary switch. The extra leverage makes the encoder feel a little smoother...to me, anyways.
As for the Aristo throttles, they have hard plastic buttons that don't have much give to them. And they have words and arrows cast into the hard plastic button tops, from what I recall. When using them for switching, it was a lot of pushing down on these uncomfortable surfaces. I prefer soft buttons as found on most TV remotes or DT400-type throttles.
And not for nothing, Sheldon, but the Aristo Radio throttles aren't that well designed either. No knob = no bueno...at least for most folks, I'd wager. Otherwise, why all the knob throttles (and DC powerpacks) being sold today? Even the Ring Engineering system uses a knob, and they have a touchscreen.
When you say "simple is better", in general I agree with you. For example, I ran my entire DCC layout with just two bus wires.
I agree that you converting to DCC would be a lot of time, but why not compare that to the installation of your high-end DC system? I bet that didn't happen overnight, either.
theodorefisk,Oookay. Did you know that DC club layouts also run fast? I should know; I was a member of one for 8 years. The use of DC, DCC, DCS, AC or pulling the trains along with a string make not a bit of difference in unprototypical operation. Heck, the worst offenders I've ever seen in "racing trains" are tinplaters running their Lionel AC ZW's wide open...and if they didn't have Magne-Traction, they'd all roll over at the first curve.Secondly, telling a club that they should "follow the rules" during a show when you're not a member of it is rather strange. And I have to throw this in... You're commenting on an online forum, which means you must have at least a working knowledge of computers. DCC can be just as simple as learning how to turn on a PC and log in to the MR Forum. Sure, it can be complicated, but it doesn't have to be a "technological nightmare". And for every DCC "nightmare" you've heard of, I can counter with a DC one.Paul A. Cutler III
BMMECNYCTrain shows are for the entertainment of the public, not prototypical operation. Children want to see trains running, not trains doing switching or sitting on a passing siding.
Don't sell the public short..
A lot of kids and adults will stand for long periods of time watching cars being switched or watch a meet.I learn that years ago at the Columbus HO Club during visitor nights or open house.We had a point to point layout with yard switching and most visitors would watch the yard action more then trains running on the main line.They would stand behind the dispatcher and watch him throw switches and line up meets on CTC board.
A friend in the San Francisco Bay Area was an early user of DCC. However his N scale layout had been designed and substantially built before DCC. It was a very nice layout (even featured in Model Railroader).
Before my last visit he told me he had reverted to DC operation because his layout operation was not enhanced by DCC, the hastle of converting locos and although it didn't happen often, replacing burned out decoders. This was before many locos were came with DCC or even DCC ready. He said he had nothing against DCC it was just that his layout worked better on DC.
After he retired he moved to another State where he he joined a modular/sectional layout club that is fully DCC.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Before my last visit he told me he had reverted to DC operation because his layout operation was not enhanced by DCC, the hastle of converting locos and although it didn't happen often, replacing burned out decoders. This was before many N scale locos came with DCC or were even DCC ready. He said he had nothing against DCC it was just that his layout and operation method worked better on DC.
After he retired he moved to another State where he he joined a modular/sectional layout club that is 100% DCC.
Paul3 I agree that you converting to DCC would be a lot of time, but why not compare that to the installation of your high-end DC system? I bet that didn't happen overnight, either. Paul A. Cutler III
Paul, you keep missing the point. Signaling and CTC, I want signaling and CTC.
That is a completely seperate infrastructure above and beyond DCC.
But it is built into the design of my Advanced Cab Control.
With DCC I would still need turnout controls, I would still need blocks, I would still need my tower panels, I would still need 40 detectors, I would still need my CTC panel.
I would still need every foot of wire I have now - plus I would have to install 130 decoders.
I would still need eight wireless throttles, I would need to replace eight base stations with similar number of boosters and circuit breakers.
And NO, with or without DCC I do not want a CTC panel on a computer screen.
Any way you break it down, DCC would be a lot more work and a lot more money for only small gains in operational flexibilty - based on MY needs and goals.
Wow, people certainly get fired up on this forum? And that shows the passion folks have for model railroading.
To Paul A Cutler III - read my post again about what I said about rules. I said clubs should have rules about operations. I did not say anything to the people about what they were doing. I merely walked away, hoping to not hear trains hitting the floor.
Again, I am staying with DC. I get enough of computers at work and when I come home, flipping on the power packs, I run my trains. No rebooting or any of that jazz. again MY OPINION.
Paul3 Heck, the worst offenders I've ever seen in "racing trains" are tinplaters running their Lionel AC ZW's wide open...and if they didn't have Magne-Traction, they'd all roll over at the first curve. Paul A. Cutler III
Heck, the worst offenders I've ever seen in "racing trains" are tinplaters running their Lionel AC ZW's wide open...and if they didn't have Magne-Traction, they'd all roll over at the first curve.
Worst offenders?
My 4 year old grandson and I love racing Lionel trains on a double track oval - he with one and I with the other. Blowing the whistles the whole time.
There is no wrong (or stupid) way to run trains. Run them the way you want. Railfan, race, operate (whatever that means to you), crash them, etc.
This is a hobby do what's fun for you.
Guys,Allow me to share a recent event..We had a special open house for a tour group and I decided to run my BB GP35/GP7 consist and 22 cars..I smile as I simply and slowly turn up the knob.
My point?
It wasn't about using DCC or DC to run this train..It was watching a train start slow and build its way up to scale track speed as I watched 22 IPD short line boxcars pass me and for me that was pure enjoyment..
Brakie,In my experience, you're incorrect about folks watching switching. I've been in my club for 25 years, have attended close to 100 Open House operations, and the public wants to see movement. The more, the better, and slow speed switching is not that attractive to the public. They want to see a dozen trains moving at around 60smph or so...not too fast, and not too slow. As dispatcher, I can see the public cluster around the best looking mainline scenery, and the yards...not so much. When they do, they're talking to the yardmasters, and not watching the switcher.
And the thing they will walk away from? A stopped train on a siding, waiting for a switch.
Sheldon,No, actually, I do get it. You and I have been over this ground many times, and I totally understand your viewpoint about CTC, signalling, etc. The thing is, I was thinking more about normal average layouts where CTC & signalling are not used, not your layout. Very few people are going to add signalling to their layouts so it seems unusual to try to sell (or not sell) DCC to other people over it. DCC wiring can be very, very simple and yet it can do things that would require a whole bunch of electronics and perhaps an electrical engineering degree to replicate in DC. That's the point I was trying to make.
theodorefisk,Honestly, this is nothing. No one here is "fired up" at all, merely discussing and debating. In yon olden days on the unmoderated MR Forum (or on the old newsgroup, rec.model.railroad) you would see fireworks quite often. This thread, OTOH, is more like a library discussion by comparison. About the clubs (and as a long time club member), it's the judgemental tone that sort of rubs me the wrong way. How do you know they don't have rules? And running trains for hours is not as simple as it would appear, especially in a crowd. You often can't see your train because of the scenery or the people in the way. People, who you try to be as nice as possible to since they paid to see the layout, and ask questions which distract the operators (again, we like to talk trains, but we have to walk with our trains or else).What I tell our operators during shows is that we are not in the model railroading business during an Open House. We are in the entertainment business. People pay to see our trains run, and these people want to see a lot of trains moving with some speed (in our case, 60smph...or 1 foot per second). Slow coal drags are 100% realistic, but few people want to see it crawling along the layout at 20smph (especially since it makes all other trains slow to 20smph). And the second a train stops moving for more than 10 seconds, the public's eyes drift towards something else, so long waits at passing sidings are frowned upon.
IRONROOSTER,The point is that Ted, above, seemed to imply that DCC layouts cause peope to run stupidly and "race". My point was that the control tech. doesn't matter, and that tinplaters are the "worst offenders" in regards to Ted's complaint about the "racing". Not that they were offensive for doing so.Paul A. Cutler III
I agree, for some types of layouts, DCC is the perfect choice, and can be very simple.
What is a "normal, average layout"?
Around here, among the modelers I know, that is a 20 x 40 basement nearly filled with layout, all with wirelsss DCC or wireless DC, many with CTC and/or signaling - but acording the the experts in the recent thread on layout size, I'm nuts if I think that is "average".
So here is a question - why is it that more people are not interested in signaling, and or CTC?
Personally, I know a number of other modelers who are, but of course people with common interests do seem to "find" each other.
Paul A Cutler iii
Pal, you certainly like to parse messages and zero in on what you want to criticize and not take in the whole message and consider it.You certainly have a judgemental tone all by yourself. You seem such the expert on clubs and operations and the rest of us apparently are morons.
Well, sorry, pal, I was in a club way before DCC was even thought of, and I will never join another one due to the infighting and egos and all that. Everyone had ideas about how track should be laid and if someone put some track down, by the next meeting, that track was ripped up and relaid somehow else, even though we had bylaws and folks who were leaders. There were too many 'experts' and the rules were ignored.
When I go to a show, I want to see trains running, on all tracks. Unfortunately what I want and others want sometimes doesn't happen. The members of those layout groups stand around, pushing pizza into their faces, and not running trains. And I don't want to see a train whizzing around at the fastest speed the transformer can make it go. and I doubt that kids want to see that either as it would be better that they could focus on it and learn than see a blur. I don't really think people want to see one train go by and another one right on its markers. I have been to many shows. MY OPINION.
Back to the original reason of this thread. I will stay DC because of the expense and technological nightmare of computerizing things and the decoders and all that jazz. This hobby has many many ways of doing things and folks that run and dispatch a layout by computer and DCC certainly can do it that way. It is not for me and I know it.
Disclaimer - all of this is MY OPINION.
Paul3In my experience, you're incorrect about folks watching switching. I've been in my club for 25 years, have attended close to 100 Open House operations, and the public wants to see movement. The more, the better, and slow speed switching is not that attractive to the public. They want to see a dozen trains moving at around 60smph or so...not too fast, and not too slow. As dispatcher, I can see the public cluster around the best looking mainline scenery, and the yards...not so much. When they do, they're talking to the yardmasters, and not watching the switcher.
Try loop running on point to point club layouts..Won't happen..8 out of the 13 clubs I been a member of over the last 50 years has been point to point.Folks do like to watch switching and meets espically when there are signals governing train movements.Guess where most visitors stood? Yup,watching the yard action.
What most loop layout club members want is all eyes on their train as it runs at slot car speeds around the layout.I see this a lot at train shows and some loop layout clubs I been a member of and these type of members are the ones that speaks out against switching and seldom do they share the track so other members may run their trains but,don't you dare switch cars in the yard(s) since that takes attention away from their train.
Let me take a stab at this....
What I take away from Theodore's and Sheldons comments is an aspect of DC operation that I've been talking about for years, if anyone has noticed.
Real trains take a long time to stop. To avoid crashes, real railroads try to keep their trains from running too close to each other. Generally speaking, the faster they go, the farther apart they stay. If one is to pass another on a siding, the train entering the siding does so WAY EARLIER and sits there WAY LONGER ....before the oncoming train is even in sight....than what most typically want to model. Afterall, as Paul mentioned, to most people, a sitting train is boring.
However, if you did simulate that type of operation in a model railroad, the DC user would have PLENTY of time to flip toggles and assign blocks...not hectic at all. Also, we have the ability to stop our trains on a dime relative to the prototype, making operating like that strictly a matter of personal choice.
However, if you're running trains with DC and find yourself keeping up with the trains by frantically flipping toggles to where you may not even be enjoying the trains, then you probably have too many trains running too quickly relative to the size of the blocks and, most likley, the size of the layout. JMO.
Using some common sense and intuition, I would assume that if someone had a DC layout that operated in that manner, I would assume they consider DCC to be a godsend, and quickly converted... possibly a long time ago. No assumption fits everyone, but there were probably a lot of conversions because of this, where as if they had a layout that operated differently, they may not have converted.
This is not a DCC vs DC thingy. It simply illustrates how the type of layout we may have and the type of operation we enjoy influences our opinions of DC.
I think when people respond to threads like this, they can't help but look at the situation from their own point of view and can't clearly see the basis for someone else's point of view.
Doughless Let me take a stab at this.... What I take away from Theodore's and Sheldons comments is an aspect of DC operation that I've been talking about for years, if anyone has noticed. Real trains take a long time to stop. To avoid crashes, real railroads try to keep their trains from running too close to each other. Generally speaking, the faster they go, the farther apart they stay. If one is to pass another on a siding, the train entering the siding does so WAY EARLIER and sits there WAY LONGER ....before the oncoming train is even in sight....than what most typically want to model. Afterall, as Paul mentioned, to most people, a sitting train is boring. However, if you did simulate that type of operation in a model railroad, the DC user would have PLENTY of time to flip toggles and assign blocks...not hectic at all. Also, we have the ability to stop our trains on a dime relative to the prototype, making operating like that strictly a matter of personal choice. However, if you're running trains with DC and find yourself keeping up with the trains by frantically flipping toggles to where you may not even be enjoying the trains, then you probably have too many trains running too quickly relative to the size of the blocks and, most likley, the size of the layout. JMO. Using some common sense and intuition, I would assume that if someone had a DC layout that operated in that manner, I would assume they consider DCC to be a godsend, and quickly converted... possibly a long time ago. No assumption fits everyone, but there were probably a lot of conversions because of this, where as if they had a layout that operated differently, they may not have converted. This is not a DCC vs DC thingy. It simply illustrates how the type of layout we may have and the type of operation we enjoy influences our opinions of DC. I think when people respond to threads like this, they can't help but look at the situation from their own point of view and can't clearly see the basis for someone else's point of view.
Very well said.
DoughlessHowever, if you're running trains with DC and find yourself keeping up with the trains by frantically flipping toggles to where you may not even be enjoying the trains, then you probably have too many trains running too quickly relative to the size of the blocks and, most likley, the size of the layout. JMO.
While that is true in general the 8 point to point clubs I was a member of a dispatcher and CTC board was used for block,signal and switch control and all the main line engineers had to do was to obey the signals and run their train at scale speeds.
The yard engineers and passenger terminal engineers just made trains up.In all but one club the inbound/outbound tracks was jointly operated by the yard engineer and dispatcher by a simple flip of a toggle switch but,permission was needed from the DS for the yard engineer to enter the inbound track-a simple radio call...A hostler attended to locomotives after the yard engineer placed them on the inbound/outbound locomotive lead again,track was jointly operated by a flip of a toggle switch.Same principle worked for outbound engines except in reverse-hostler to yard engineer.
It was a very smooth operation.
BRAKIE Doughless However, if you're running trains with DC and find yourself keeping up with the trains by frantically flipping toggles to where you may not even be enjoying the trains, then you probably have too many trains running too quickly relative to the size of the blocks and, most likley, the size of the layout. JMO. While that is true in general the 8 point to point clubs I was a member of a dispatcher and CTC board was used for block,signal and switch control and all the main line engineers had to do was to obey the signals and run their train at scale speeds. The yard engineers and passenger terminal engineers just made trains up.In all but one club the inbound/outbound tracks was jointly operated by the yard engineer and dispatcher by a simple flip of a toggle switch but,permission was needed from the DS for the yard engineer to enter the inbound track-a simple radio call...A hostler attended to locomotives after the yard engineer placed them on the inbound/outbound locomotive lead again,track was jointly operated by a flip of a toggle switch.Same principle worked for outbound engines except in reverse-hostler to yard engineer. It was a very smooth operation.
Doughless However, if you're running trains with DC and find yourself keeping up with the trains by frantically flipping toggles to where you may not even be enjoying the trains, then you probably have too many trains running too quickly relative to the size of the blocks and, most likley, the size of the layout. JMO.
That is the same way my layout works. BUT, just my opinion, unless one has a space even larger than my 900 sq ft, the mainline run is not long enough to support two terminals and all the restructuring of trains at both ends.
I prefer a continous loop, with hidden through staging, with the working "teminal/yard" in the middle, not two of them at the ends.
This creates a better balance of mainline running to yard work in most cases and has the side benefit of display running when desired.
It also follows a layout planning rule I like very much - model each "element" only once. One major passenger terminal, one freight yard, one engine terminal, etc, etc.
It operates effectively as a point to point with trains stopping in the hidden staging without every train having to be broken down, turned, etc, at each end.
Loads east, empties west hopper trains can run the same direction forever, and be switched, or have power changes in the middle of their run.
When complete I will have nearly 8 scale miles of double track - not nearly long enough to justify terminals at both ends in my view.
And this also fits in with the point Doughless is making about layouts being too "busy" for their size.
So in my operational scheme, some trains are just power changes, others end at the "yard", others begin at the yard, and some are just through hauls.
And then, seperate from the doulbe track mainline, is an industrial belt line - just like one of your ISL's.
And, there are times when I just want to "watch them run", so a nice big "loop" is necessary in my mind.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Larry, That is the same way my layout works. BUT, just my opinion, unless one has a space even larger than my 900 sq ft, the mainline run is not long enough to support two terminals and all the restructuring of trains at both ends. I prefer a continous loop, with hidden through staging, with the working "teminal/yard" in the middle, not two of them at the ends. This creates a better balance of mainline running to yard work in most cases and has the side benefit of display running when desired. It also follows a layout planning rule I like very much - model each "element" only once. One major passenger terminal, one freight yard, one engine terminal, etc, etc. It operates effectively as a point to point with trains stopping in the hidden staging without every train having to be broken down, turned, etc, at each end. Loads east, empties west hopper trains can run the same direction forever, and be switched, or have power changes in the middle of their run. When complete I will have nearly 8 scale miles of double track - not nearly long enough to justify terminals at both ends in my view. And this also fits in with the point Doughless is making about layouts being too "busy" for their size. So in my operational scheme, some trains are just power changes, others end at the "yard", others begin at the yard, and some are just through hauls. And then, seperate from the doulbe track mainline, is an industrial belt line - just like one of your ISL's. And, there are times when I just want to "watch them run", so a nice big "loop" is necessary in my mind. Sheldon
Alton Junction
"Who runs DC only?".
Not me, I preferred advanced technology.
To each his own though, I could really care less who runs DC and why they do it.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
ATLANTIC CENTRALThat is the same way my layout works. BUT, just my opinion, unless one has a space even larger than my 900 sq ft, the mainline run is not long enough to support two terminals and all the restructuring of trains at both ends.
All 8 clubs I mention had large(largest was 2200 sq ft) point to point layouts with no hidden staging or reverse loops and required 3 men in each yard plus 8 main line engineers and a dispatcher.
You ran between yard A and yard B and ran a train from B back to A..
Sadly only 2 remains and their new layouts features point to point or loop operation with staging. One has a hidden track to return loaded hopper cars to the coal marshalling yard.This is a neat operation since it looks like mine runs returning from or leaving for the mines.A hidden member runs these trains between the harbor yard and marshalling yard.
Sheldon,What's a "normal, average" layout? We'll never know. My guess is between a bedroom-size to approx. 50% of a basement, but who can really say? In my own experience, the only layout that was bigger than that was either my own 25' x 50', or a club layout. Most others I've seen are smaller than a full basement. I do think the 4x8' is not the typical layout these days (like most people did for a long, long time, judging by the old layout plan books).
As for the lack of signals/CTC installations, I think the No. 1 reason is money. As you know, it's not cheap. With DC block control, you really didn't need signals (my club's old layout didn't actually use signals for 45 years, just the blocks; see link: http://ssmrc.org/oldlayout/scan0051.jpg). With DCC, you might need 'em, but that means more money and work to install blocks over just running the trains in "dark territory". And generally, one doesn't really need signals with DCC unless one has more than one train running at a time. I'm thinking that most layouts operate as lone wolf/one-train types, so the utilization of signals is not as widespread just because it's not necessary no matter the control system.
Ted,Please don't put words in my mouth. I never called nor implied that anyone was a "moron". I do know a thing or two about clubs, large layouts and model train operations since I've been doing that for 25 years, but I'm not what I would call an "expert" like, say, Andy Sperando or Tony Koester. Quite frankly, I consider myself more of a hack when it comes to operations, especially compared to real engineers (of which we have a few in the club). As Operations Chairman of a 70-member club, I must tune my operations to the people that run it, and I don't have the "luxury" of forcing people to do things the "right way"...even on my own layout. Why? Because every operator I deal with is either a dues-paying member, or is an invited friend (and on the home layout, my own father). I can't hire nor fire anyone. I'm more of a practical operator who is willing to overlook certain unrealistic things to ensure everyone has a good time. It's just like why we still use Kadee #5's and not Sergent couplers. Sergents are far more realistic, but Kadee #5's are a lot less frustrating.
What is interesting is that you appear on this thread to be very anti-DCC, yet in 2013 on this Forum you were "looking into it". What happened?Brakie,I don't understand. "Try loop running on point to point club layouts..Won't happen." That's exactly what we did on our old club layout, and exactly what we do on our new layout. Both layouts are point to point, yet have looping tracks that allow continuous running for shows and open houses (but are not used during Operation sessions).As for getting yardmen to switch trains, it's not that anyone doesn't want them to switch at our club. The trick is to actually get people to do so. We have a half a dozen guys willing to be yardmen, but compare that to the several dozen that only want to run trains all day long, and the division of interest is apparent.Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3I don't understand. "Try loop running on point to point club layouts..Won't happen." That's exactly what we did on our old club layout, and exactly what we do on our new layout. Both layouts are point to point, yet have looping tracks that allow continuous running for shows and open houses (but are not used during Operation sessions).
None of the 8 point to point club layouts had a means to run loops..You ran between yard A and Yard B and terminated your run upon arrival.
Why these clubs decided on point to point layouts is because many of the old members did not want to run loops and I know at one it was because they wanted everybody to run trains instead of standing around while "track hogs" ran their trains this happen on their first club layout and the "new" layout was deigned as a point to point layout to stop that or so I was told after I joined.
For the record the first club I joined in '64 was point to point-the Columbus Model Railroad Club that was located in the basement of a A&P store.
BRAKIE Paul3 I don't understand. "Try loop running on point to point club layouts..Won't happen." That's exactly what we did on our old club layout, and exactly what we do on our new layout. Both layouts are point to point, yet have looping tracks that allow continuous running for shows and open houses (but are not used during Operation sessions). Why these clubs decided on point to point layouts is because many of the old members did not want to run loops and I know at one it was because they wanted everybody to run trains instead of standing around while "track hogs" ran their trains this happen on their first club layout and the "new" layout was deigned as a point to point layout to stop that or so I was told after I joined.
Paul3 I don't understand. "Try loop running on point to point club layouts..Won't happen." That's exactly what we did on our old club layout, and exactly what we do on our new layout. Both layouts are point to point, yet have looping tracks that allow continuous running for shows and open houses (but are not used during Operation sessions).
Gotta at least have a continuous loop.
Rich
Paul,
Interesting that your layout and mine are about the same size. But around here, home layouts the size of yours and mind, and some bigger, are "typical" if not also average.
Clubs - as you know, that's not my thing anymore.
I'm thinking that most layouts operate as lone wolf/one-train types, so the utilization of signals is not as widespread just because it's not necessary no matter the control system.
Who nees DCC to run one train at a time? Maybe that's why there are a fair number of DC users still?
Nobody "needs" signals to run model trains - I just want the added realism - I model a kind of rairoad that would have them in real life.
richhotrainIf I had to run trains only on a point to point layout, I would exit the hobby. Gotta at least have a continuous loop. Rich
Rich,If I had to run loops I would exit the hobby at double time.I get bored running loops during open houses and during the week of the county fair at the club I'm a member of now..I'm good for around 30-45 mintues before I become completely bored out of my mind watching trains run loops.That's one reason why I have always favored ISLs over loop layouts.
But,none the less whatever it takes to float a modeler's tug boat that gives him the most enjoyment.
BRAKIE richhotrain If I had to run trains only on a point to point layout, I would exit the hobby. Gotta at least have a continuous loop. Rich Rich,If I had to run loops I would exit the hobby at double time.I get bored running loops during open houses and during the week of the county fair at the club I'm a member of now..I'm good for around 30-45 mintues before I become completely bored out of my mind watching trains run loops.That's one reason why I have always favored ISLs over loop layouts. But,none the less whatever it takes to float a modeler's tug boat that gives him the most enjoyment.
richhotrain If I had to run trains only on a point to point layout, I would exit the hobby. Gotta at least have a continuous loop. Rich
The thing that would bore me to death would be a point to point without a continuous loop. Running a train from one end of the layout to the other end puts me to sleep just thinking about it.
richhotrainThe thing that would bore me to death would be a point to point without a continuous loop. Running a train from one end of the layout to the other end puts me to sleep just thinking about it. Rich
Not if its CTC single track where signals must be obeyed and meets with opposing trains are made.Running a local is very much like the prototype-hurry up and wait..
A dispatcher must plan his every move so, the signals can be at the proper setting before meets in passing sidings so the engineer knows what about to take place.My experiences with dispatcher less you go/I go point to point operation wasn't much fun.
I have operated on club loop layouts that was fun.One club had two yards and two stagging yards so,we could really operate on operation nights and loop run for open houses..We could play around in the yards as well since trains was rotated in and out of the stagging yards on a routine bases and yes,some times we would yard a train while one was leaving the yard-a very nice "wow!" factor for the open house attendees.
Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops. Continuous loops are not just for club layouts on Open House Day. I have a double mainline continuous loop with 168 feet of track on each mainline. Nothing boring about that.
richhotrainYeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops.
Ever see 8 trains-that's 4 trains running in opposite directions on a single track layout with passing sidings? The action never stops and stand in one spot and its as close to real railfaning as you can get since the trains are never the same once they enter the yard..
BRAKIE richhotrain Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops. Ever see 8 trains-that's 4 trains running in opposite directions on a single track layout with passing sidings? The action never stops and stand in one spot and its as close to real railfaning as you can get since the trains are never the same once they enter the yard..
richhotrain Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops.
And, let's not forget that many of us are lone wolf operators and not club members.
Long live continuous loops!
Paul III
Wow, you remembered that I mentioned DCC in 2013 and that I was looking into it? Interesting. Well I did. But if you remember, I made some comments or questions about it and immediately the egomaniacs got on their high horses and criticized my comments. That was memorable, for sure. And it shows how people can be in this or any other hobby.
OK no one is a moron. OK, I retract my comment for calling the running of trains on DCC close together 'stupid'.
I have nothing against DCC. I think it is great. But I run my layout myself and prefer blocks and DC. There is no incentive for me to go to the expense of decoders and all that stuff to get it.
As to operations of layouts, I understand what you are saying that you can't get people to do whatever you want them to. I do read MR and read about the layouts that use fast time, schedules, cards for switching, signals, etc. Certainly there are layouts that do run on operating rules, similar to the real railroads. There has to be some semblance of rules, I would think. IMHO.
richhotrain BRAKIE richhotrain Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops. Ever see 8 trains-that's 4 trains running in opposite directions on a single track layout with passing sidings? The action never stops and stand in one spot and its as close to real railfaning as you can get since the trains are never the same once they enter the yard.. Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains? And, let's not forget that many of us are lone wolf operators and not club members. Long live continuous loops! Rich
Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains?
Rich, you are so right. There was a club around here with a big point to point layout like Larry is describing. Our group and that group had some common members and we operated there on a regular basis. I always took the yardmaster job on the one yard in the middle of the layout. The rest was too boring, too short a run, etc.
richhotrainLarry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains?
Those were large clubs that filled basements of various types of business one was located in a former freight house so,not small by any means..The average freight train was 30 cars by design in all 8 clubs that had point to point layouts..
I can see where lone wolves would need a loop layout but,I still prefer point to point layout operation any day--or night as far as that matters..
On my layout, I have a two track mainline that goes around and I set up two trains on it and let them go. Then I go to the switchyard and make up new trains or work on track or build kits on my workbench. So yeah, continuous loop works nicely.
I too am a lone wolf. As mentioned before, I was in a club 35 years ago and there was too much infighting and friction over the layout construction, track placements and operations. Prior to that I was in a club that everyone got along nicely in.
Hi,
I'm pretty much like theodorefisk....... two mains circling the layout, and a submain with yard, terminal, and industrial sidings attached. And yes, I am very much a lone wolf (wouldn't want to be in any club that would have me as a member).........
Really, a combo of both point to point (or yard/industry siding/terminal complex) and a facility for continuous running seems ideal to me.
But, everyone has their own version of "ideal", and that's what they should have.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
BRAKIE richhotrain Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains? Those were large clubs that filled basements of various types of business one was located in a former freight house so,not small by any means..The average freight train was 30 cars by design in all 8 clubs that had point to point layouts.. I can see where lone wolves would need a loop layout but,I still prefer point to point layout operation any day--or night as far as that matters..
richhotrain Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains?
Larry, the other point is this, just because a layout has connections that allow continious running, it does not have to be operated in that fashion all the time - it can be set up to do both continious and point to point - but a point to point layout can only do one thing......
ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, the other point is this, just because a layout has connections that allow continious running, it does not have to be operated in that fashion all the time - it can be set up to do both continious and point to point - but a point to poit layout can only do one thing...... Sheldon
Very true and maybe adding a loop is the way it should be done today since the hobby has changed so much over the years but,back then point to point club layouts was quite popular.These layouts was built in the 50s without any means of making a big loop for display running and was a joy to operate even during open houses..
One of the most interesting home layouts I operated on had 2 giantic return loop stagging yards and a small yard for local freights. A through freight would drop off cars at this yard then after their train was made up two locals would depart that yard one in each direction.Later after the locals returned to the yard another freight would pick up the outbound cars and drop cars off.This layout keep 7 men busy for 4 hours.
I like continuous running with loops at both ends. I do like to do some switching but for me operations is like watching grass grow. Used to do operations on a very large O scale layout and believe me it was mind numbing. Not my kind of running at all.
DAVID FORTNEY I like continuous running with loops at both ends. I do like to do some switching but for me operations is like watching grass grow. Used to do operations on a very large O scale layout and believe me it was mind numbing. Not my kind of running at all.
David,There are several types of operation from E-Z as 1-2-3 or so complex it is as you say mind numbing.
I prefer simple carcard/waybill operation on my ISL..Of late I been testing even something more simple a hand written switch list.The jury is still out on that.
A example
Pattons
S/O 44552,54443 P/U 13447,532199
General Plastics
S/O 67889,69821,34435. P/U 77123,78912
BRAKIE DAVID FORTNEY I like continuous running with loops at both ends. I do like to do some switching but for me operations is like watching grass grow. Used to do operations on a very large O scale layout and believe me it was mind numbing. Not my kind of running at all. David,There are several types of operation from E-Z as 1-2-3 or so complex it is as you say mind numbing. I prefer simple carcard/waybill operation on my ISL..Of late I been testing even something more simple a hand written switch list.The jury is still out on that. A example Pattons S/O 44552,54443 P/U 13447,532199 General Plastics S/O 67889,69821,34435. P/U 77123,78912
Here in our local group, the hand written (or computer typed) switch list (train order) is pretty common.
I run MRC power packs. I have run the same ones for years. My 171 foot mainline has 4 independent blocks for all the track in those blocks with shutoffs where needed. I run train sets double headed. Athearn,Atlas and Backmann engines pull whatever I put behind them. Ed
The question of the OP was who is running DC, not which is better or even why. Based on my experience, there is still a lage DC based portion to the hobby. I sell a lot of DC engines and can hardly give away the ones that are DCC.
The interesting thing that I've read in this post is the neutral to negative feeling about sound. No not all feel this way, but like me, a number do. With sound, to me, a little goes a long way; but it is going for a preimum of around $100. I wonder for how long?
www.llxlocomotives.com
So many trains, so little time,
ggnlars The question of the OP was who is running DC, not which is better or even why. Based on my experience, there is still a lage DC based portion to the hobby. I sell a lot of DC engines and can hardly give away the ones that are DCC. The interesting thing that I've read in this post is the neutral to negative feeling about sound. No not all feel this way, but like me, a number do. With sound, to me, a little goes a long way; but it is going for a preimum of around $100. I wonder for how long? Larry www.llxlocomotives.com
The work you have posted on your web site is very interesting.
I have yet to fully digest your site, but will continue to do so. Unlike most of your test locos, virtually all my locos have been purchased new.....
I run DC, with NO decoder equiped locos - they generally will not run with my Aristo throttles.
With the older P2K circuit boards I have either replaced them with the newer styles or removed them and installed simpler constant lighting circuits for DC use.
Using the Aristo Train Engineer wireless throttle, brightness is not an issue because of full voltage pulse width modulation speed control. This control method also solves a number of performance issues you site without loco modifications.
My max track voltage is 13.5 - I find most locos run at suitable scale top speeds at that voltage per the original NMRA Standards and RP's - now rewitten to placate MTH and others.
So, maybe they all run better for me because I use better throttles?
As for negative and neutral feelings on sound, as a HiFi enthusiast, the poor speaker quality of onboard sound in small scales is as equally offensive as listening to music on computers, smart phones, boom boxes, etc. - it hurts my ears after a very short time.
There is no solution, a pair of 1" speakers will never do the job.
And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL.
Sound remains one of the driving forces for DCC users, and a lack of interest in it remains a controling reason for some not to imbrace DCC.
Early on, I also concluded I would not be happy with some locos on the layout sound equiped and others not - full conversion seems impractical for many, surely for me.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL.
Sheldon,I will agree with your assessment especially at full volume but,at a lower volume setting it sounds decent enough for many of us.
After 30-45 minutes of switching I hit the #8 key (MRC Tech-6) and mute the sound.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL. Sheldon,I will agree with your assessment especially at full volume but,at a lower volume setting it sounds decent enough for many of us. However.. After 30-45 minutes of switching I hit the #8 key (MRC Tech-6) and mute the sound.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL.
From that vantage point, it is as if you are observing trains from the top of a hill and the sounds are much more remote. Simply turning down the volume is not going to add realism.
I have been re-evaluating my current switching layout presently under construction- as to DC vs DCC. I am doing so on the basis of cost- I have about 30 DC engines, three or four DCC- ready ones and 2 DCC ones with the electronics already installed. I am quite comfortable with my ability to improve DC engine operation, from rewiring for better conductivity to installing LEDs. I feel that the real cost to me would not be the DCC system itself (less than $200 for a Digital Zephyr), but the additional costs of converting my DC fleet to DCC. As to sound, I would be quite happy with an external programmable digital sound system, where I could use it when I want to, rather than attempting to hide tiny speakers in an already crowded space. It seems that small sound projection (DCC) would require even more costs beyond just refitting my older engines for DCC. Based on this, I am leaning towards staying with DC.
Cedarwoodron
richhotrain BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL. Sheldon,I will agree with your assessment especially at full volume but,at a lower volume setting it sounds decent enough for many of us. However.. After 30-45 minutes of switching I hit the #8 key (MRC Tech-6) and mute the sound. Isn't a big part of the problem with sound is that the manufacturer uses a clip of sound standing next to an engine whereas when an operator of, say, HO scale, is standing over a 36" high layout ? From that vantage point, it is as if you are observing trains from the top of a hill and the sounds are much more remote. Simply turning down the volume is not going to add realism. Rich
Isn't a big part of the problem with sound is that the manufacturer uses a clip of sound standing next to an engine whereas when an operator of, say, HO scale, is standing over a 36" high layout ?
Rich,
From the standpoint of an audio engineer, there is a long list of problems, one of which is related to what you suggest.
Even if your layout is built chest or eye level, as some people do these days, the sound does not dissipate quickly enough with distance.
At three feet away you are 270 from an HO loco - you can hardly hear a real loco at idle or coasting at that distance! - but the horn or whistle (high pitch sound) would still seem loud.
To me, the lack of bass reproduction just makes the sound an annoying din - like an old nine transistor radio from the sixties turned up too loud.
I have yet to take the time to do any testing, but I still think that well done layout based "generic" sounds would add more realism than current onboard sound systems.
We have major mainlines not real far from our home, I am currently working in down town Havre de Grace, MD, both CSX and NS Northeast corridor mainlines go right though the town - electric or diesel, you hear the horns, and the track noise more than you hear the locos.
Hear is another point - I have no interest in having to activate sounds as an operator - sounds like coupler clank - are they serious? Who wants to have to find and push the right button while tring to realisticly operate their model - that whole thing is lost on me.
Bells, whistles, horns - OK, the engineer does that and I have plans to possibly add those sounds to my layout - but the rest of it I can do without.
The ones that makes me laugh the most are the talking crews, station announcements and such - I have watched trains in real life - you can't hear a word unless you are in the cab or you have a radio/scanner too (I've never owned a scanner, not my kind of thing).
Have you seen this video?
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80461541/
What we need is an onboard sound system to act out this video...........then the onboard sound offerings would be truely complete.
That is what is wrong with so many things today - nothing is left to the imagination...............
Disclaimer: below is my opinion.
Kinda funny how often this subject, DC vs DCC, comes up. No David, you are not the only one on DC. I have my own layout, do not interact with other model railroaders, and my layout is DC and will never change. I don't care about sound. The thing about DC is that it is expensive to retrofit and complicated from a computer perspective. DC runs fine and requires very little thought as I, and probably everyone else, deals with the vagaries and complexities of computers at work, why bring the misery into my train room. I just flip the transformer on, advance the rheostats and away go the trains, while I work on a part of my layout. it works for me as I want to just enjoy my hardwork and huge investment of time.
again IMHO
One of the issues is what is DC. It is not that we don't know what DC is supposed to be, it is that over the years systems have been put into place that modify the DC signal. In my testing, I decided to try to take that variable out of the picture. Generally power supplies that are used in trains are putting out some from of PWM. I do not object to PWM, its just that it is another variable in the picture. Electronics like mechanical things tend have variation, so even two supplies of the same model and manufacturer will not put out the same signal. The same is true of all electronics, light boards and decoders for instance. I believe this is a large source of confusion for all concerned.
In my experience, like Sheldon, trying to run a decoder equipped engine on my MRC DC power supplies is a crap shoot. Basically the decoder gets confused. So does my RRampmeter. The meter will tell me it is AC, the decoder will just not send power to the motor or if it does it is very erratic.
For this reason and some very wise advise from some guys on another forum, I got a power supply that actually put out a real DC signal and measures the current flow at the same time. Guess what, my meter and the engines with decoders are no longer confused. The meter says it is DC and the engines run with the DC signal like they were designed to do. They run everytime, no question about the decoder confusion. When the motor is not running it is because it does not have enough average power to start or sustain rotation.
Generally I will not quote the results of a decoder engine, because we are back to a pulsing device controlling the motor. Decoders use PWM to control the motor even in DC. like in DCC, it allows the engine to run lower speed at a given power input. While this is in the end desirable, it is another large variable. Decoder outputs vary from unit to unit, model to model and certainly manufacture to manufacture. My purpose in the testing I do is to understand the basic engine performance in DC. At that level the basic differences can be understood and the variations from unit to unit can be decribed.
At the end of the day, I fix HO engines. It is more hobby than business, but it is important to understand the "relative to what" in that process. The data will tell me if a motor is sick or just staggering due to internal issues. As an Aerospace Engineer I understand data. When some one tells me that I should do this or that fix and the engine will run as "smooth as silk" I do not know how to respond. "Where?", "for how long?" and "relative to what?", are my typical thoughts.
This is really not consistent with the original post, I hope it is helpful.
I understand your viewpoint as an enginneer and and you purposes in your hobby/business.
While I am not PE, I am an experianced electrician, old school industrial control system designer, and have pretty strong electronics background.
Alternate forms of DC motor control have been around a long time - they are a reality of model trains. The unwillingness or inablity of the DCC manufacturers to make truely compatible dual mode decoders is a failing on the issue of compatiblity - which has been a cornerstone of the HO and N scale hobbies for more than six decades - and a primary reason for the sometimes contentious debates bewteen DCC users and DC users.
I have removed a lot of decoders in the last 15 years - they sell really well on Ebay.
At the end of the day, electronics and motor control is just one part of this very complex and diverse hobby, and even as a person with a background in it, I simply want something that works for my needs - The Aristo train Engineer does that.
To answer your questions:
Where? - on my layout - very carefully layed Atlas flex track and mostly custom line turnouts, with a few hand layed special turnouts. Advanced Cab Control hybrid MLZ control with Aristo wireless throttles.
For how long? - in 42 years I have never worn out a loco, and few ever require repeated repair/maintenence.
Relative to what? - slow speed starting at 1-3 SMPH is acceptable, real trains seldom really go slower than that. Top speeds similar to real top speeds are desired to take best advantage of the range of the throttle.
The push button control of the Train Engineer is more like the controls of a real loco and is easy to understand once learned. It is also easily operated with one hand - hard to say for most DCC controllers or some others with knobs.
After that, I'm more concerened with my relay based signal system, working interlockings, CTC, ATC and other features of my home made control system.
I will continue to digest the info on your site to see how it might benifit my modeling - thanks for taking the time to post all that data.
If you are not already familiar, you may be interested in this:
http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/index.html
Take care,
ATLANTIC CENTRAL At three feet away you are 270 from an HO loco - you can hardly hear a real loco at idle or coasting at that distance! - but the horn or whistle (high pitch sound) would still seem loud. To me, the lack of bass reproduction just makes the sound an annoying din - like an old nine transistor radio from the sixties turned up too loud. I have yet to take the time to do any testing, but I still think that well done layout based "generic" sounds would add more realism than current onboard sound systems. We have major mainlines not real far from our home, I am currently working in down town Havre de Grace, MD, both CSX and NS Northeast corridor mainlines go right though the town - electric or diesel, you hear the horns, and the track noise more than you hear the locos. Hear is another point - I have no interest in having to activate sounds as an operator - sounds like coupler clank - are they serious? Who wants to have to find and push the right button while tring to realisticly operate their model - that whole thing is lost on me. Bells, whistles, horns - OK, the engineer does that and I have plans to possibly add those sounds to my layout - but the rest of it I can do without. Sheldon
As a happy buyer of onboard sound locomotives, I agree with everything you said.
As far as the amount of noise from real locomotives: I was in the old NYC station now converted to RR Museum in Elkhart Indiana recently. The town ordinance requires silent running for the trains...no horns at crossings. Now, I know I was inside the building, but the outside wall between me and the trains was only about 50ft. Several trains went by and the only thing I could hear was the clickity clack of the cars being pulled. The locomotives were stealth-like. Not audible at all unless I tried to listen for them. I was taken completely by surprise when I found out that half of the train was already past me before I realized it was there.
As far as onboard sound: The tinniness (sp?) of the sound is a problem, however, I find that if the sound of the prime mover, fans, motors, etc is turned down to about 10 to 15% max, its more in line with what is heard in real life (example above). Of course, I'm speaking of diesels, and generally more modern varieties.
As far as the lack of bass, that is a real problem. But I think that a properly designed under layout sound system could easily provide the bass needed to represent ground vibration that is caused by the weight of the passing train. I think onboard sound could have its place as providing some of the mid range sounds associated with the locomotive itself, as well as the all-important movement of the soound along the tracks, but that woofers placed under the layout could supplement the process by providing the deep base notes the onboard speakers just can't reproduce. Sort of a combination of onboard/under layout sound system would be best, IMO.
As far as coupler crashing, and talking crews...I couldn't agree more...the buttons on the dcc throttle are small enough to disincent me to even try fumbling with the correct F button during switching. I don't know why the manufacturers even bother designing these noises into the decoders, and would appreciate a design that stripped down the availabale noises and focused more on better motor control.
Just throwing in my two cents about onboard sound in a DC user thread...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If you are not already familiar, you may be interested in this: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/index.html
ATLANTIC CENTRALAt three feet away you are 270 from an HO loco - you can hardly hear a real loco at idle or coasting at that distance! - but the horn or whistle (high pitch sound) would still seem loud.
At 270' you could hear a EMD 567 or a ALCO at work not so much as idling near the yard office.A Baldwin,GE or FM would be just as loud when working..Not to mention a working GP30,35 or a SD45..You could feel the sound vibration from those engines. In comparison today's engines are much quieter and can slip upon you with little noise.
Hello All,
Now that this question has been taken WAY I'm starting another thread...
Loop vs. Point to Point...What's your preference?
As far as the OP's question: I used to run DC but found the switching options too limiting for block operations. I now run DCC and thoroughly enjoy it's challenges.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"