Hello All,
Now that this question has been taken WAY I'm starting another thread...
Loop vs. Point to Point...What's your preference?
As far as the OP's question: I used to run DC but found the switching options too limiting for block operations. I now run DCC and thoroughly enjoy it's challenges.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
ATLANTIC CENTRALAt three feet away you are 270 from an HO loco - you can hardly hear a real loco at idle or coasting at that distance! - but the horn or whistle (high pitch sound) would still seem loud.
At 270' you could hear a EMD 567 or a ALCO at work not so much as idling near the yard office.A Baldwin,GE or FM would be just as loud when working..Not to mention a working GP30,35 or a SD45..You could feel the sound vibration from those engines. In comparison today's engines are much quieter and can slip upon you with little noise.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If you are not already familiar, you may be interested in this: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/index.html
If you are not already familiar, you may be interested in this:
http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/index.html
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL At three feet away you are 270 from an HO loco - you can hardly hear a real loco at idle or coasting at that distance! - but the horn or whistle (high pitch sound) would still seem loud. To me, the lack of bass reproduction just makes the sound an annoying din - like an old nine transistor radio from the sixties turned up too loud. I have yet to take the time to do any testing, but I still think that well done layout based "generic" sounds would add more realism than current onboard sound systems. We have major mainlines not real far from our home, I am currently working in down town Havre de Grace, MD, both CSX and NS Northeast corridor mainlines go right though the town - electric or diesel, you hear the horns, and the track noise more than you hear the locos. Hear is another point - I have no interest in having to activate sounds as an operator - sounds like coupler clank - are they serious? Who wants to have to find and push the right button while tring to realisticly operate their model - that whole thing is lost on me. Bells, whistles, horns - OK, the engineer does that and I have plans to possibly add those sounds to my layout - but the rest of it I can do without. Sheldon
At three feet away you are 270 from an HO loco - you can hardly hear a real loco at idle or coasting at that distance! - but the horn or whistle (high pitch sound) would still seem loud.
To me, the lack of bass reproduction just makes the sound an annoying din - like an old nine transistor radio from the sixties turned up too loud.
I have yet to take the time to do any testing, but I still think that well done layout based "generic" sounds would add more realism than current onboard sound systems.
We have major mainlines not real far from our home, I am currently working in down town Havre de Grace, MD, both CSX and NS Northeast corridor mainlines go right though the town - electric or diesel, you hear the horns, and the track noise more than you hear the locos.
Hear is another point - I have no interest in having to activate sounds as an operator - sounds like coupler clank - are they serious? Who wants to have to find and push the right button while tring to realisticly operate their model - that whole thing is lost on me.
Bells, whistles, horns - OK, the engineer does that and I have plans to possibly add those sounds to my layout - but the rest of it I can do without.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
As a happy buyer of onboard sound locomotives, I agree with everything you said.
As far as the amount of noise from real locomotives: I was in the old NYC station now converted to RR Museum in Elkhart Indiana recently. The town ordinance requires silent running for the trains...no horns at crossings. Now, I know I was inside the building, but the outside wall between me and the trains was only about 50ft. Several trains went by and the only thing I could hear was the clickity clack of the cars being pulled. The locomotives were stealth-like. Not audible at all unless I tried to listen for them. I was taken completely by surprise when I found out that half of the train was already past me before I realized it was there.
As far as onboard sound: The tinniness (sp?) of the sound is a problem, however, I find that if the sound of the prime mover, fans, motors, etc is turned down to about 10 to 15% max, its more in line with what is heard in real life (example above). Of course, I'm speaking of diesels, and generally more modern varieties.
As far as the lack of bass, that is a real problem. But I think that a properly designed under layout sound system could easily provide the bass needed to represent ground vibration that is caused by the weight of the passing train. I think onboard sound could have its place as providing some of the mid range sounds associated with the locomotive itself, as well as the all-important movement of the soound along the tracks, but that woofers placed under the layout could supplement the process by providing the deep base notes the onboard speakers just can't reproduce. Sort of a combination of onboard/under layout sound system would be best, IMO.
As far as coupler crashing, and talking crews...I couldn't agree more...the buttons on the dcc throttle are small enough to disincent me to even try fumbling with the correct F button during switching. I don't know why the manufacturers even bother designing these noises into the decoders, and would appreciate a design that stripped down the availabale noises and focused more on better motor control.
Just throwing in my two cents about onboard sound in a DC user thread...
- Douglas
Larry,
I understand your viewpoint as an enginneer and and you purposes in your hobby/business.
While I am not PE, I am an experianced electrician, old school industrial control system designer, and have pretty strong electronics background.
Alternate forms of DC motor control have been around a long time - they are a reality of model trains. The unwillingness or inablity of the DCC manufacturers to make truely compatible dual mode decoders is a failing on the issue of compatiblity - which has been a cornerstone of the HO and N scale hobbies for more than six decades - and a primary reason for the sometimes contentious debates bewteen DCC users and DC users.
I have removed a lot of decoders in the last 15 years - they sell really well on Ebay.
At the end of the day, electronics and motor control is just one part of this very complex and diverse hobby, and even as a person with a background in it, I simply want something that works for my needs - The Aristo train Engineer does that.
To answer your questions:
Where? - on my layout - very carefully layed Atlas flex track and mostly custom line turnouts, with a few hand layed special turnouts. Advanced Cab Control hybrid MLZ control with Aristo wireless throttles.
For how long? - in 42 years I have never worn out a loco, and few ever require repeated repair/maintenence.
Relative to what? - slow speed starting at 1-3 SMPH is acceptable, real trains seldom really go slower than that. Top speeds similar to real top speeds are desired to take best advantage of the range of the throttle.
The push button control of the Train Engineer is more like the controls of a real loco and is easy to understand once learned. It is also easily operated with one hand - hard to say for most DCC controllers or some others with knobs.
After that, I'm more concerened with my relay based signal system, working interlockings, CTC, ATC and other features of my home made control system.
I will continue to digest the info on your site to see how it might benifit my modeling - thanks for taking the time to post all that data.
Take care,
One of the issues is what is DC. It is not that we don't know what DC is supposed to be, it is that over the years systems have been put into place that modify the DC signal. In my testing, I decided to try to take that variable out of the picture. Generally power supplies that are used in trains are putting out some from of PWM. I do not object to PWM, its just that it is another variable in the picture. Electronics like mechanical things tend have variation, so even two supplies of the same model and manufacturer will not put out the same signal. The same is true of all electronics, light boards and decoders for instance. I believe this is a large source of confusion for all concerned.
In my experience, like Sheldon, trying to run a decoder equipped engine on my MRC DC power supplies is a crap shoot. Basically the decoder gets confused. So does my RRampmeter. The meter will tell me it is AC, the decoder will just not send power to the motor or if it does it is very erratic.
For this reason and some very wise advise from some guys on another forum, I got a power supply that actually put out a real DC signal and measures the current flow at the same time. Guess what, my meter and the engines with decoders are no longer confused. The meter says it is DC and the engines run with the DC signal like they were designed to do. They run everytime, no question about the decoder confusion. When the motor is not running it is because it does not have enough average power to start or sustain rotation.
Generally I will not quote the results of a decoder engine, because we are back to a pulsing device controlling the motor. Decoders use PWM to control the motor even in DC. like in DCC, it allows the engine to run lower speed at a given power input. While this is in the end desirable, it is another large variable. Decoder outputs vary from unit to unit, model to model and certainly manufacture to manufacture. My purpose in the testing I do is to understand the basic engine performance in DC. At that level the basic differences can be understood and the variations from unit to unit can be decribed.
At the end of the day, I fix HO engines. It is more hobby than business, but it is important to understand the "relative to what" in that process. The data will tell me if a motor is sick or just staggering due to internal issues. As an Aerospace Engineer I understand data. When some one tells me that I should do this or that fix and the engine will run as "smooth as silk" I do not know how to respond. "Where?", "for how long?" and "relative to what?", are my typical thoughts.
This is really not consistent with the original post, I hope it is helpful.
www.llxlocomotives.com
So many trains, so little time,
Disclaimer: below is my opinion.
Kinda funny how often this subject, DC vs DCC, comes up. No David, you are not the only one on DC. I have my own layout, do not interact with other model railroaders, and my layout is DC and will never change. I don't care about sound. The thing about DC is that it is expensive to retrofit and complicated from a computer perspective. DC runs fine and requires very little thought as I, and probably everyone else, deals with the vagaries and complexities of computers at work, why bring the misery into my train room. I just flip the transformer on, advance the rheostats and away go the trains, while I work on a part of my layout. it works for me as I want to just enjoy my hardwork and huge investment of time.
again IMHO
Ted
richhotrain BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL. Sheldon,I will agree with your assessment especially at full volume but,at a lower volume setting it sounds decent enough for many of us. However.. After 30-45 minutes of switching I hit the #8 key (MRC Tech-6) and mute the sound. Isn't a big part of the problem with sound is that the manufacturer uses a clip of sound standing next to an engine whereas when an operator of, say, HO scale, is standing over a 36" high layout ? From that vantage point, it is as if you are observing trains from the top of a hill and the sounds are much more remote. Simply turning down the volume is not going to add realism. Rich
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL. Sheldon,I will agree with your assessment especially at full volume but,at a lower volume setting it sounds decent enough for many of us. However.. After 30-45 minutes of switching I hit the #8 key (MRC Tech-6) and mute the sound.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL.
Sheldon,I will agree with your assessment especially at full volume but,at a lower volume setting it sounds decent enough for many of us.
However..
After 30-45 minutes of switching I hit the #8 key (MRC Tech-6) and mute the sound.
Isn't a big part of the problem with sound is that the manufacturer uses a clip of sound standing next to an engine whereas when an operator of, say, HO scale, is standing over a 36" high layout ?
From that vantage point, it is as if you are observing trains from the top of a hill and the sounds are much more remote. Simply turning down the volume is not going to add realism.
Rich
Rich,
From the standpoint of an audio engineer, there is a long list of problems, one of which is related to what you suggest.
Even if your layout is built chest or eye level, as some people do these days, the sound does not dissipate quickly enough with distance.
The ones that makes me laugh the most are the talking crews, station announcements and such - I have watched trains in real life - you can't hear a word unless you are in the cab or you have a radio/scanner too (I've never owned a scanner, not my kind of thing).
Have you seen this video?
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80461541/
What we need is an onboard sound system to act out this video...........then the onboard sound offerings would be truely complete.
That is what is wrong with so many things today - nothing is left to the imagination...............
I have been re-evaluating my current switching layout presently under construction- as to DC vs DCC. I am doing so on the basis of cost- I have about 30 DC engines, three or four DCC- ready ones and 2 DCC ones with the electronics already installed. I am quite comfortable with my ability to improve DC engine operation, from rewiring for better conductivity to installing LEDs. I feel that the real cost to me would not be the DCC system itself (less than $200 for a Digital Zephyr), but the additional costs of converting my DC fleet to DCC. As to sound, I would be quite happy with an external programmable digital sound system, where I could use it when I want to, rather than attempting to hide tiny speakers in an already crowded space. It seems that small sound projection (DCC) would require even more costs beyond just refitting my older engines for DCC. Based on this, I am leaning towards staying with DC.
Cedarwoodron
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL.
ggnlars The question of the OP was who is running DC, not which is better or even why. Based on my experience, there is still a lage DC based portion to the hobby. I sell a lot of DC engines and can hardly give away the ones that are DCC. The interesting thing that I've read in this post is the neutral to negative feeling about sound. No not all feel this way, but like me, a number do. With sound, to me, a little goes a long way; but it is going for a preimum of around $100. I wonder for how long? Larry www.llxlocomotives.com
The question of the OP was who is running DC, not which is better or even why. Based on my experience, there is still a lage DC based portion to the hobby. I sell a lot of DC engines and can hardly give away the ones that are DCC.
The interesting thing that I've read in this post is the neutral to negative feeling about sound. No not all feel this way, but like me, a number do. With sound, to me, a little goes a long way; but it is going for a preimum of around $100. I wonder for how long?
The work you have posted on your web site is very interesting.
I have yet to fully digest your site, but will continue to do so. Unlike most of your test locos, virtually all my locos have been purchased new.....
I run DC, with NO decoder equiped locos - they generally will not run with my Aristo throttles.
With the older P2K circuit boards I have either replaced them with the newer styles or removed them and installed simpler constant lighting circuits for DC use.
Using the Aristo Train Engineer wireless throttle, brightness is not an issue because of full voltage pulse width modulation speed control. This control method also solves a number of performance issues you site without loco modifications.
My max track voltage is 13.5 - I find most locos run at suitable scale top speeds at that voltage per the original NMRA Standards and RP's - now rewitten to placate MTH and others.
So, maybe they all run better for me because I use better throttles?
As for negative and neutral feelings on sound, as a HiFi enthusiast, the poor speaker quality of onboard sound in small scales is as equally offensive as listening to music on computers, smart phones, boom boxes, etc. - it hurts my ears after a very short time.
There is no solution, a pair of 1" speakers will never do the job.
And because of its low fidelity, my personal impression is that it sounds "toy like", something that detracts from the model for me - turning it into "shrunk down" LIONEL.
Sound remains one of the driving forces for DCC users, and a lack of interest in it remains a controling reason for some not to imbrace DCC.
Early on, I also concluded I would not be happy with some locos on the layout sound equiped and others not - full conversion seems impractical for many, surely for me.
I run MRC power packs. I have run the same ones for years. My 171 foot mainline has 4 independent blocks for all the track in those blocks with shutoffs where needed. I run train sets double headed. Athearn,Atlas and Backmann engines pull whatever I put behind them. Ed
BRAKIE DAVID FORTNEY I like continuous running with loops at both ends. I do like to do some switching but for me operations is like watching grass grow. Used to do operations on a very large O scale layout and believe me it was mind numbing. Not my kind of running at all. David,There are several types of operation from E-Z as 1-2-3 or so complex it is as you say mind numbing. I prefer simple carcard/waybill operation on my ISL..Of late I been testing even something more simple a hand written switch list.The jury is still out on that. A example Pattons S/O 44552,54443 P/U 13447,532199 General Plastics S/O 67889,69821,34435. P/U 77123,78912
DAVID FORTNEY I like continuous running with loops at both ends. I do like to do some switching but for me operations is like watching grass grow. Used to do operations on a very large O scale layout and believe me it was mind numbing. Not my kind of running at all.
I like continuous running with loops at both ends. I do like to do some switching but for me operations is like watching grass grow. Used to do operations on a very large O scale layout and believe me it was mind numbing. Not my kind of running at all.
David,There are several types of operation from E-Z as 1-2-3 or so complex it is as you say mind numbing.
I prefer simple carcard/waybill operation on my ISL..Of late I been testing even something more simple a hand written switch list.The jury is still out on that.
A example
Pattons
S/O 44552,54443 P/U 13447,532199
General Plastics
S/O 67889,69821,34435. P/U 77123,78912
Here in our local group, the hand written (or computer typed) switch list (train order) is pretty common.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, the other point is this, just because a layout has connections that allow continious running, it does not have to be operated in that fashion all the time - it can be set up to do both continious and point to point - but a point to poit layout can only do one thing...... Sheldon
Very true and maybe adding a loop is the way it should be done today since the hobby has changed so much over the years but,back then point to point club layouts was quite popular.These layouts was built in the 50s without any means of making a big loop for display running and was a joy to operate even during open houses..
One of the most interesting home layouts I operated on had 2 giantic return loop stagging yards and a small yard for local freights. A through freight would drop off cars at this yard then after their train was made up two locals would depart that yard one in each direction.Later after the locals returned to the yard another freight would pick up the outbound cars and drop cars off.This layout keep 7 men busy for 4 hours.
BRAKIE richhotrain Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains? Those were large clubs that filled basements of various types of business one was located in a former freight house so,not small by any means..The average freight train was 30 cars by design in all 8 clubs that had point to point layouts.. I can see where lone wolves would need a loop layout but,I still prefer point to point layout operation any day--or night as far as that matters..
richhotrain Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains?
Those were large clubs that filled basements of various types of business one was located in a former freight house so,not small by any means..The average freight train was 30 cars by design in all 8 clubs that had point to point layouts..
I can see where lone wolves would need a loop layout but,I still prefer point to point layout operation any day--or night as far as that matters..
Larry, the other point is this, just because a layout has connections that allow continious running, it does not have to be operated in that fashion all the time - it can be set up to do both continious and point to point - but a point to point layout can only do one thing......
Hi,
I'm pretty much like theodorefisk....... two mains circling the layout, and a submain with yard, terminal, and industrial sidings attached. And yes, I am very much a lone wolf (wouldn't want to be in any club that would have me as a member).........
Really, a combo of both point to point (or yard/industry siding/terminal complex) and a facility for continuous running seems ideal to me.
But, everyone has their own version of "ideal", and that's what they should have.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
On my layout, I have a two track mainline that goes around and I set up two trains on it and let them go. Then I go to the switchyard and make up new trains or work on track or build kits on my workbench. So yeah, continuous loop works nicely.
I too am a lone wolf. As mentioned before, I was in a club 35 years ago and there was too much infighting and friction over the layout construction, track placements and operations. Prior to that I was in a club that everyone got along nicely in.
richhotrainLarry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains?
richhotrain BRAKIE richhotrain Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops. Ever see 8 trains-that's 4 trains running in opposite directions on a single track layout with passing sidings? The action never stops and stand in one spot and its as close to real railfaning as you can get since the trains are never the same once they enter the yard.. Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains? And, let's not forget that many of us are lone wolf operators and not club members. Long live continuous loops! Rich
BRAKIE richhotrain Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops. Ever see 8 trains-that's 4 trains running in opposite directions on a single track layout with passing sidings? The action never stops and stand in one spot and its as close to real railfaning as you can get since the trains are never the same once they enter the yard..
richhotrain Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops.
Ever see 8 trains-that's 4 trains running in opposite directions on a single track layout with passing sidings? The action never stops and stand in one spot and its as close to real railfaning as you can get since the trains are never the same once they enter the yard..
Larry, how much space would that require to run 8 trains with passing sidings on a point-to-point? And, how long are those trains?
And, let's not forget that many of us are lone wolf operators and not club members.
Long live continuous loops!
Rich, you are so right. There was a club around here with a big point to point layout like Larry is describing. Our group and that group had some common members and we operated there on a regular basis. I always took the yardmaster job on the one yard in the middle of the layout. The rest was too boring, too short a run, etc.
Paul III
Wow, you remembered that I mentioned DCC in 2013 and that I was looking into it? Interesting. Well I did. But if you remember, I made some comments or questions about it and immediately the egomaniacs got on their high horses and criticized my comments. That was memorable, for sure. And it shows how people can be in this or any other hobby.
OK no one is a moron. OK, I retract my comment for calling the running of trains on DCC close together 'stupid'.
I have nothing against DCC. I think it is great. But I run my layout myself and prefer blocks and DC. There is no incentive for me to go to the expense of decoders and all that stuff to get it.
As to operations of layouts, I understand what you are saying that you can't get people to do whatever you want them to. I do read MR and read about the layouts that use fast time, schedules, cards for switching, signals, etc. Certainly there are layouts that do run on operating rules, similar to the real railroads. There has to be some semblance of rules, I would think. IMHO.
richhotrainYeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops.
Yeah, but the advantage of a continuous loop is that you can have one or more trains running at all times while conducting operations simultaneously with other trains. That way, the action never stops. Continuous loops are not just for club layouts on Open House Day. I have a double mainline continuous loop with 168 feet of track on each mainline. Nothing boring about that.
richhotrainThe thing that would bore me to death would be a point to point without a continuous loop. Running a train from one end of the layout to the other end puts me to sleep just thinking about it. Rich
Not if its CTC single track where signals must be obeyed and meets with opposing trains are made.Running a local is very much like the prototype-hurry up and wait..
A dispatcher must plan his every move so, the signals can be at the proper setting before meets in passing sidings so the engineer knows what about to take place.My experiences with dispatcher less you go/I go point to point operation wasn't much fun.
I have operated on club loop layouts that was fun.One club had two yards and two stagging yards so,we could really operate on operation nights and loop run for open houses..We could play around in the yards as well since trains was rotated in and out of the stagging yards on a routine bases and yes,some times we would yard a train while one was leaving the yard-a very nice "wow!" factor for the open house attendees.
BRAKIE richhotrain If I had to run trains only on a point to point layout, I would exit the hobby. Gotta at least have a continuous loop. Rich Rich,If I had to run loops I would exit the hobby at double time.I get bored running loops during open houses and during the week of the county fair at the club I'm a member of now..I'm good for around 30-45 mintues before I become completely bored out of my mind watching trains run loops.That's one reason why I have always favored ISLs over loop layouts. But,none the less whatever it takes to float a modeler's tug boat that gives him the most enjoyment.
richhotrain If I had to run trains only on a point to point layout, I would exit the hobby. Gotta at least have a continuous loop. Rich
Rich,If I had to run loops I would exit the hobby at double time.I get bored running loops during open houses and during the week of the county fair at the club I'm a member of now..I'm good for around 30-45 mintues before I become completely bored out of my mind watching trains run loops.That's one reason why I have always favored ISLs over loop layouts.
But,none the less whatever it takes to float a modeler's tug boat that gives him the most enjoyment.
The thing that would bore me to death would be a point to point without a continuous loop. Running a train from one end of the layout to the other end puts me to sleep just thinking about it.