I would like to understand why there has been such a large turn away from model building! I have been on R/C Airplane Forums and asked pretty much this same question there. The manufacturers of hobby kits have perceived that the modeling public desires ready to use models and not kits. From the overall thrust of what we have said here, that is not the direction you would think things would have taken. Obviously something is out of kilter, here!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626The manufacturers of hobby kits have perceived that the modeling public desires ready to use models and not kits.
what exactly is a modeler?
do you think most kid/adults who see an RC plane fly at a flying field are thinking about the joy of building a plane from a kit? Do they want to be modelers or pilots?
Similarly, do you think most kid/adults are thinking about the joys of building benchwork, trackwork, wiring panels, scenery, rolling stock when they see a model railroad? Do they want to be modelers or engineers?
I think many getting into the hobby recognize that kits are less expensive. But many people today value their time and are willing to pay more for RTR.
I think over time, some model railroaders who have spare time learned to enjoy building structures, rolling stock and even locomotives by kitbashing or from scratch, and became modelers.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
NP2626.......single them out for embarrassment.......
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I think it goes to a terminology. Modeler or Model railroader. They are not necessarily the same, at all.
For my definition, a model railroader, (MR), is any living human being who is interested in, working with, modeling or running a railroad based entity that is smaller than a real railroad train. The locos and rolling stock are "models" of the real thing. You can be a model railroader if you have someone else build and stock your layout for you, leaving you to operate or run it.
A "modeler" can be any one who uses his or her skill and most often their hands, to create any entity that is a representation of something larger than found in real life. Trains boats and planes need not be involved at all in modeling. A talented, fabulous modeler might despise trains, boats and planes. Modeler is an acronym for model maker.
I think this has been a thread about MR's who were not modelers as youths, yet, are now MR's....What led you to MR activities? Do you now model or work pretty much R-T-R?
I think we have had only one or two belly up to the bar and acknowledge they were not modelers but got infected with MR'ing via chance association with other MR's or became facinated looking at finsihed MR layouts.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
gregc NP2626 The manufacturers of hobby kits have perceived that the modeling public desires ready to use models and not kits. what exactly is a modeler?
NP2626 The manufacturers of hobby kits have perceived that the modeling public desires ready to use models and not kits.
Good question, I have my definition, what is your's; or, is it even important that it be clearly defined?
Hi, I grew up on the nw side of Chicago during the 50s (B. 1944). Lionel trains were my interest, but so was building model ships and planes.
Spent a lot of time playing ball (esp. Chicago softball - bare handed of course), and shooting my Daisy BB rifles, archery, and of course bike riding. I was a collector of coins and stamps too. I also dabbled in pyrotechnics (if I did that stuff today I would be behind bars). Got a motorbike at 14, and at 17 the first car.
Hobbies are lifesavers, and I think it is a gene! I know some adults today that literally have no hobbies - other than socializing - and frankly they are "lost".
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
NP2626 gregc NP2626 The manufacturers of hobby kits have perceived that the modeling public desires ready to use models and not kits. what exactly is a modeler? Good question, I have my definition, what is your's;
Good question, I have my definition, what is your's;
gregcI think over time, some model railroaders who have spare time learned to enjoy building structures, rolling stock and even locomotives by kitbashing or from scratch, and became modelers.
NP2626or, is it even important that it be clearly defined?
NP2626I would like to understand why there has been such a large turn away from model building!
gregc NP2626 gregc NP2626 The manufacturers of hobby kits have perceived that the modeling public desires ready to use models and not kits. what exactly is a modeler? Good question, I have my definition, what is your's; gregc I think over time, some model railroaders who have spare time learned to enjoy building structures, rolling stock and even locomotives by kitbashing or from scratch, and became modelers. NP2626 or, is it even important that it be clearly defined? NP2626 I would like to understand why there has been such a large turn away from model building!
gregc I think over time, some model railroaders who have spare time learned to enjoy building structures, rolling stock and even locomotives by kitbashing or from scratch, and became modelers.
NP2626 or, is it even important that it be clearly defined?
NP2626 I would like to understand why there has been such a large turn away from model building!
Sorry Greg, I am not following your line of thought, here?
I thought you're interested in understanding why manyfacturers are shifting away from kits to RTR and why hobbyists are turning away from model building. And you asked whether the definition of a "modeler" matters.
i think a "modeler" prefers to build rather than buy (i.e. RTR) and that not all model railroaders are modelers. Yes, model railroaders have to build benchwork, trackwork and wiring, but some have said they'd prefer not to. And yes there are all degrees in between. I think the trend is away from modeler toward hobbyist for various reasons.
NP2626My question is for those people who did not build models as youngsters. Given that the modeling public is for the most part an older public, I’d like to know what you people who are in the hobby now did with your free time when you were young?
gregc I thought you're interested in understanding why manyfacturers are shifting away from kits to RTR and why hobbyists are turning away from model building. And you asked whether the definition of a "modeler" matters. i think a "modeler" prefers to build rather than buy (i.e. RTR) and that not all model railroaders are modelers. Yes, model railroaders have to build benchwork, trackwork and wiring, but some have said they'd prefer not to. And yes there are all degrees in between. I think the trend is away from modeler toward hobbyist for various reasons.
Yes, that is exactly what I am interested in. I also have no problem defining "modeler" in the same way you have defined it. However, my/our definition might be controversial to some and in an effort to keep this topic from becoming controversial, I don't think the definition is important.
"I think the trend is away from modeler toward hobbyist for various reasons".
NP2626 Since this was a request for people who were not modelers when they were young to discuss what they did with their free time back then, I expected/hoped to hear from that faction. What we have heard from, is people like me, who have enjoyed building models since their youth. Maybe those who didn't take a shine to building models when they were younger, look upon this thread as a way for me to single them out for embarrassment and nothing could be farther from the truth! My interest is in attempting to understand where this, what would appear to be largest proportion of this hobby, is coming from.
But, here is another thing to consider. My guess is that so many model railroaders used to build kits because they had to before the advent of RTR.
There seems to be too much concern over the fact that model railroaders today prefer RTR over kits, but there seems to be a good explanation for that. It is one thing to build a static model like a plastic airplane or ship that sits on a shelf and a piece of rolling stock that requires constant handling as a piece of equipment in constant motion. Had RTR been generally available 30, 40, 50 years ago, kits would probably have never been popular in the first place.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich, I suspect that building the models back 30, 40, 50 years ago was a part of the attraction to the hobby. Ready to run was available then and not very popular (although RTR quality was suspect, back then).
If what you say was true, there would have only been dread over having to build another model instead of the almost "giddy" excitement I and every other modeler I knew (and this was a lot) had upon opening the box.
NP2626 Rich, I suspect that building the models back 30, 40, 50 years ago was a part of the attraction to the hobby. Ready to run was available then and not very popular (although RTR quality was suspect, back then). If what you say was true, there would have only been dread over having to build another model instead of the almost "giddy" excitement I and every other modeler I knew (and this was a lot) had upon opening the box.
But, my point was that if RTR rolling stock for model railroads was more generally available 30, 40, 50 years ago, as it is today, model railroad kits may not have been so generally available to get giddy over in the first place.
richhotrain NP2626 Rich, I suspect that building the models back 30, 40, 50 years ago was a part of the attraction to the hobby. Ready to run was available then and not very popular (although RTR quality was suspect, back then). If what you say was true, there would have only been dread over having to build another model instead of the almost "giddy" excitement I and every other modeler I knew (and this was a lot) had upon opening the box. I don't doubt the "giddy" over the "dread". There would be nothing to dread about building a kit. I did it myself with plastic model planes, ships, and tanks. But, my point was that if RTR rolling stock for model railroads was more generally available 30, 40, 50 years ago, as it is today, model railroad kits may not have been so generally available to get giddy over in the first place. Rich
I don't doubt the "giddy" over the "dread". There would be nothing to dread about building a kit. I did it myself with plastic model planes, ships, and tanks.
I have no way to dispute what you say, other than I interpreted the building of models as the fun part, still do.
NP2626It is precisely this "Trend", which I am interested in attempting to understand. What are the various reasons you alluded to, for people involved in the hobby, to lack interest in building their models?
I think I'm old enough. I seem to enjoy getting immersed for hours building a turnout or working on some trivial part of the layout. I like designing and building circuits. I get caught up is doing things that get started, set aside and finished years later.
Modelers build structures from scratch or kitbash locomotives. I don't think I'm a modeler, but I think I know what drives them. I see the layout as an excuse to work on something challenging that doesn't have deadlines and which I decide what to work on and when. (it's a hobby, not a sport)
I think many modeler builds for the joy of building, not because what he's building is needed. Other modelers have a specific need that the know can only be met by building it themselves. Is there a different between modeler and craftsman?
The manufacturers of hobby kits have perceived that customers will pay more for an RTR than they will for a kit of the same thing. The labor cost to assemble a shake the box kit is minimal, and so selling RTR gives the manufacturer a better margin.
Now a days, a lotta kids build their own computers. Both of my sons did. For a coolness factor, a working computer is fully as cool as a working model plane or train.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
There has been a continuous trend away from model building. Just as folks complained about plastic kits taking away from scratchbuilding, so RTR takes away from kit building.
First it was locomotive kits disappearing - I'm not sure if they are all gone, but certainly most of them are. Then it was plastic rolling stock kits disappearing - still a few companies left, but they are dwindling. And now RTR structures are increasing - still plenty of kit makers left----for now.
And it's not just model railroading. All the craft hobbies, i.e. woodworking, sewing, painting, etc. are dwindling.
While all the usual reasons can be cited - time, cost, competing leisure options, I think an extra reason for model railroading is the increase in large layouts. Just as house size has been growing in the U.S., so have layouts. If you're building a small layout - bedroom size or less, it's easy to build a lot of kits, super detail, etc. But when you start building 500 sq ft, 800, 1000, and larger, it's harder to build everything.
My layout currently under construction will be about 800-1000 sq ft when finished (if it ever is). So I use as much RTR as I can. Once the layout is operational and somewhat sceniced, I'll start building that stash of kits I have squirreled away - I even have some locomotive kits.
Enjoy
Paul
My dad used rtr so he could get things up and running for me. Now he's building lots of kits. He also did this so his dad could see finished layout before cancer took him. There is plenty of kits for those that wish to build, but rtr really helped my dad make his dad happy one more time and that is worth more than anything to him than money could buy.
Shanny10
B&O, C&O, PRR
Just lovin trains
dstarr Now a days, a lotta kids build their own computers. Both of my sons did. For a coolness factor, a working computer is fully as cool as a working model plane or train.
My son also "built" his own high end gaming computer. However his idea of building the computer is plugging in the components he bought into the tower he also bought. That is like saying you screwed a light bulb into the ceiling fixture, so you built a house. Now if he soldered all the cicuit boards together the way we use to build Heathkit and Dynaco kits, then I would say he built the computer and say well done.
Plugging in components is just about as hard as screwing in a light bulb and just as rewarding.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMAN dstarr Now a days, a lotta kids build their own computers. Both of my sons did. For a coolness factor, a working computer is fully as cool as a working model plane or train. My son also "built" his own high end gaming computer. However his idea of building the computer is plugging in the components he bought into the tower he also bought. That is like saying you screwed a light bulb into the ceiling fixture, so you built a house. Now if he soldered all the cicuit boards together the way we use to build Heathkit and Dynaco kits, then I would say he built the computer and say well done. Plugging in components is just about as hard as screwing in a light bulb and just as rewarding.
I have high regards for people who understand computer hardware well enough to build their own computers. Whether it is a “COOL” endeavor, I guess is in the eye of the beholder. I think to consider model railroaders cool might be a stretch, at least it was never considered so when I was a kid.
Mark, I see what you are saying. I was just thinking that the only satisfaction in building your own computer would be is, you can cherry pick what you want in it. That basically boils down to "how much money do I have". It is sort of like, do I buy a train set or pick and choose my engines and rolling stock seperately and put a model railway together. Brass or plastic, what can one afford.
It took me many times longer to put my home theatre all back together after the reno than it took the kid to throw his new computer together.
His computer is pretty "cool" and after only four months he is upgrading his video card. When it arrives he will have it installed in a couple of minutes. Other than the satisfaction he gets from making good money for a sixteen year old and can afford to do it, I don't see that he can have the same satisfaction he would have as if he had soldered the circuit boards together. Of course by the time he finished building it, it would be outdated.
Give me a kit with any degree of difficulty over ready to roll anytime and it will give me greater enjoyment and sense of satisfaction. I will also think it is cooler than anything RTR on my layout.
Like you I was really into R/C planes. I built some kits, but was soon scratch building for combat. My kid has an R/C plane that comes out of the box and all you have to do is attach the foam wing. The kids at the park say "COOL". To each their own.
shanny10 My dad used rtr so he could get things up and running for me. Now he's building lots of kits. He also did this so his dad could see finished layout before cancer took him. There is plenty of kits for those that wish to build, but rtr really helped my dad make his dad happy one more time and that is worth more than anything to him than money could buy.
Shanny, be sure to thank your Dad for me and tell him I really think he is a class act.
Doing that so his Father could see better what the finished layout might look like was a true act of love, and I would like you to tell him that I recognize that.
Johnboy out................A cancer survivor.
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
BATMAN Give me a kit with any degree of difficulty over ready to roll anytime and it will give me greater enjoyment and sense of satisfaction. I will also think it is cooler than anything RTR on my layout.
Apart for model trains I built AMT model truck plastic kits. I also built model cars and planes, but mostly trucks.
Ah yes I well remember those great days of the 50s. I remember looking in the hobby shop at a brass engine in ho scale and I dreamed of having one. It all started for me with a marx steam engine from about 1948. It was years later, about 1966 i got back into the hobby. That was the year I got married and she has put up with me and trains all those years. Back in the day I would never have dreamed of having sound and dcc. I love the good old days but I love the good new engines today. May God Bless