How hard can it be for makers of scale automobiles to make them to the correct scale? Most of my HO autos are CMW and Woodland Scenics but I also scored 5 nice looking Model Power 1955 Chevys a few years ago. All seem to be made to about the same scale. Recently, I ordered 4 autos from Historic Rail. Often they do not state the manufacturer in the catalog so I knew I was taking a chance. Yesterday they arrived, 2 1949 Mercurys, an Edsel, and a T-Bird. It turns out they were made by Oxford, a company in England. They were beautifully made and solidly built. Just one problem. I could instantly see that they were too big. I had nothing to compare the Edsel to but I do have other Mercurys and T-Birds. Comparing them side by side, the Oxfords appear to be about 10% bigger than the others. I suppose it’s possible Oxford scaled theirs correctly and the rest of my autos are too small, but odds are it is the Oxfords which are the outliers.
I’ve tried to avoid buying any of the European brands because my experience is these seem to be scaled too small. Just the opposite with the Oxfords. I know they use the metric system across the pond but 1/87th is 1/87th no matter how you are measuring. They only have to get this right once when they are tooling up to make these autos. How hard can it be to get it right. Do they think it’s not that important? Do they think it is not noticeable? If so, they are wrong on both counts. Because these vehicles are so nice looking I will find a place for them on my layout but it won’t be next to any of my other cars because they would stick out like a sore thumb. With the too small Euro cars, I’ve placed them near the backdrop. The Oxfords I will probably put near the front of the layout away from any other vehicles. Sort of an unplanned forced perspective. These Oxfords are very nice looking but unfortunately, I won’t be buying any more because of their size.
Just My observation, so take it for what it's worth: I have quite a few vehicles that I have collected over the year's and have been comparing them, ( I belong to a 1/87 scale truck club) what I found is that the Classic Metal Works newer plastic auto vehicles are slightly smaller than their cast metal counter parts. I just received a number of the Oxford Models and last nite I took them all apart and have quite a few Preiser sitting people and wanted to see if any would fit in, without cutting the legs off. Anyway one sitting guy fit nicely in a 49 Merc, after moving the steering wheel some, ( I believe if anything....the wheel is oversize) that same guy would not even come close to fitting in a CMW 55 Plastic Ford that I have. So are Preiser figures off scale too? A standing figure next to the door on the CMW Ford looks oversize too, but not when standing next to the Oxford 49 Merc.
Who know's, where evil's lurk.....I surely will not loose any sleep over it. Now if it was an oversize Match box car....it would not even be on the layout.
Take Care!
Frank
Jecorbett - the Oxford models are made to OO scale, which is 1/76 and not 1/87. They are 13% oversized for an HO layout.
You are quite safe with cars from Wiking, Brekina and Busch, but their selection of US prototype cars is rather small.
Being from England, could they be OO scale?
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Oxford HO cars are 1/76th(OO scale). Tht Edsel will be long, even if true 1/87th. If the car looks good, just do not place it next to a 'scale' one!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
On the side in front on the Oxford plastic case that the Autos come in, states that: Scale 1:87. so that is a lie then, is what some are saying???? The 1/76 scale figure that I have on my sailing ship is two head's taller than the roof line on the car, so I guess the figure is seven ft tall??
How about Athearn making some more n scale firetrucks.
Let's settle this.
This is an Oxford model of the 1958 Edsel I just got last week. The spec for this car say it is 218.3 inches long, or about 18.2 feet.
This is the 1956 T-Bird from Oxford. Spec is 197.5 inches, or 16.45 feet.
EDIT: I re-took the pictures. They are pretty close to their specs in HO scale.
EDIT again: This is tricky. I had to tape the ruler to the deck of the cars. With the ruler on the table and the car above it, the close-up camera angle adds an apparant foot or more of length.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Mr. B,
Just got the Yellow Edsel last nite. Three white walls and one black wall on the left side of car. LOL,LOL. Actually, I think it would look pretty good with black walls.
zstripeJust got the Yellow Edsel last nite. Three white walls and one black wall on the left side of car.
Somebody put on the spare?
Most peoples perception of the actual size and comparative size of real objects is subjective and with few exceptions usually wrong.
Comparing two models is not adequate unless you know the scale of one of them and also accurately perceive the differences in dimensions of the prototypes.
The only way to tell the actual scale of a model car is to measure the pertinent dimensions (length, width, height , wheelbase, track) and compare them to the actual car. It may be found that the scale varies depending on the dimension compared.
Measuring with a scale ruler is good for a rough comparison, but to be really accurate a caliper should be used.
In the recent Oxford Models thread, I posted links to three automobile specification sites.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
maxman zstripe Just got the Yellow Edsel last nite. Three white walls and one black wall on the left side of car. Somebody put on the spare?
zstripe Just got the Yellow Edsel last nite. Three white walls and one black wall on the left side of car.
Rather strange, soumds like some "whitewall" painting
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Edsels were big cars, much bigger than the 56 Chevy BelAirs most of us have on our layouts. The Oxford Edsels may look large by comparison, but back in 1958 they were large by comparison.
zstripe Mr. B, Just got the Yellow Edsel last nite. Three white walls and one black wall on the left side of car. LOL,LOL. Actually, I think it would look pretty good with black walls. Take Care! Frank
Rich
Alton Junction
bogp40 maxman zstripe Just got the Yellow Edsel last nite. Three white walls and one black wall on the left side of car. Somebody put on the spare? Rather strange, soumds like some "whitewall" painting
Actually, I just took a closer look with the magnifier and it's not only a blackwall....the hubcap is different...the other three have a silver spinner in the center, with the Yellow paint in a ring around it. The blackwall has a all silver hubcap, with spinner in the center.
Wow!!! That's what I get for buying a new car at nite, off the showroom floor. LOL.
EDIT: I think I'll put this one on WPF....for a do you notice the difference question.
Sir Madog Jecorbett - the Oxford models are made to OO scale, which is 1/76 and not 1/87. They are 13% oversized for an HO layout. You are quite safe with cars from Wiking, Brekina and Busch, but their selection of US prototype cars is rather small.
That explanation makes sense. If that is the case, the fault then belongs with Historic Rail for presenting them as 1/87.
MisterBeasley Edsels were big cars, much bigger than the 56 Chevy BelAirs most of us have on our layouts. The Oxford Edsels may look large by comparison, but back in 1958 they were large by comparison.
I suppose to really settle this, one would have to know the actual dimensions of the prototype. The arithmetic would be fairly easy. Then it would be no problem to know which cars are out of scale and by how much. I'm more inclined to believe the explanation that these cars are OO scale rather than HO. A shame if they are not HO because other than scale, they are really well made.
Yeah and there was no way in heck...that monster 480 cu.in. motor would fit in any 55/56 Chevy either, would even be tight in a 57/58 Chevy.
OK, this page has dimensions of the various 1958 models, (possibly where Mr. Beasley got his dimensions from): 1958 Edsel PageThere are actually different sizes of Edsel - it was supposed to be a brand like Mercury or Lincoln, with different models (Citation, Ranger, Pacer, Corsair)Apparently the Oxford Model is a 1958 Edsel Citation 2 Door Hardtop:Dimensions & other key info from the above linked pageTotal Production: 2,532 Original Base Price: $3,500 Curb Weight (lbs): 4,136 Wheelbase (in.): 124.0 Length (in.): 218.8 Width (in.): 79.8 Height (in.): 56.8 Mr. Beasley, time to get out those cheap Chinese made digital calipers (at least mine are cheap Chinese ones, I think Chicago brand via Harbor Freight), and re-measure the Length, Width and Height of your model. Give us (my imaginary fan club) the readout in decimal inches, and we'll multiply by 87.1. Via the magic of (very) fuzzy logic we'll take the weighed delta of the differences LxWxH, and decide how relatively ugly the scaling is compared to HO (for example the old Matchbox TopKick truck cab was like this - the Length and Height of the truck cab were fairly close to HO, but the width was way too wide, so it went in the close-but-no-cigar category since I was not insane enough to try to cut out the middle and JB Weld the sides of that pot-metal shell together).Hopefully this Oxford question can finally be put to bed...
Oxford's own website is careful to distinguish between the vehicles they offer in 1:76 and those they offer as 1:87 - and the American prototypes we are debating are clearly listed by them as 1:87. It is of course possible they were working off erroneous information or drawings or master parts. I am also aware that the modelmaking process can introduce slight size errors fairly easily.
Dave Nelson
MisterBeasley Let's settle this. This is an Oxford model of the 1958 Edsel I just got last week. The spec for this car say it is 218.3 inches long, or about 18.2 feet. This is the 1956 T-Bird from Oxford. Spec is 197.5 inches, or 16.45 feet. EDIT: I re-took the pictures. They are pretty close to their specs in HO scale. EDIT again: This is tricky. I had to tape the ruler to the deck of the cars. With the ruler on the table and the car above it, the close-up camera angle adds an apparant foot or more of length.
A clip of dimensions for the 4-door.
Owned by Charles & Frances ReedHarpersfield, NY Model Number: 57B Total Production: 5,112 Original Base Price: $3,580 Curb Weight (lbs): 4,230 Wheelbase (in.): 124.0 Length (in.): 218.8 Width (in.): 79.8 Height (in.): 56.8
Length is 18'-2.8"
http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel58.htm#Specs
LensCapOn MisterBeasley Let's settle this. This is an Oxford model of the 1958 Edsel I just got last week. The spec for this car say it is 218.3 inches long, or about 18.2 feet. This is the 1956 T-Bird from Oxford. Spec is 197.5 inches, or 16.45 feet. EDIT: I re-took the pictures. They are pretty close to their specs in HO scale. EDIT again: This is tricky. I had to tape the ruler to the deck of the cars. With the ruler on the table and the car above it, the close-up camera angle adds an apparant foot or more of length. Oddly enough, there is at least one Edsel site on the internet. (Go figure) A clip of dimensions for the 4-door. 1958 Edsel Citation 4-Door Hardtop Owned by Charles & Frances ReedHarpersfield, NY Model Number: 57B Total Production: 5,112 Original Base Price: $3,580 Curb Weight (lbs): 4,230 Wheelbase (in.): 124.0 Length (in.): 218.8 Width (in.): 79.8 Height (in.): 56.8 Length is 18'-2.8" http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel58.htm#Specs
Oddly enough, there is at least one Edsel site on the internet. (Go figure)
The Oxford model is a two-door hardtop, prototype dimensions from http://www.automobile-catalog.com/ . The four door dimensions are the same:
Length:
5559 mm / 218.86 in
Width:
2028 mm / 79.84 in
Wheelbase:
3151 mm / 124.05 in
Substantially the same as the four door dimensions referenced by MisterBeasley
Appears the Oxford model is very close to the correct size for the advertised 1/87 scale.
Going back to the Edsel site, there was a 2-door with the square roof with these demensions.
Owned by John & Darlene ScottKnoxville, IA Model Number: 63B Total Production: 2,532 Original Base Price: $3,500 Curb Weight (lbs): 4,136 Wheelbase (in.): 124.0 Length (in.): 218.8 Width (in.): 79.8 Height (in.): 56.8
There was also a smaller version with a rounded rear roof that was shorter.
Owned by Clark James Elnora, Alberta Model Number: 63B Total Production: 6,139 Original Base Price: $2,770 Curb Weight (lbs): 3,724 Wheelbase (in.): 118.0 Length (in.): 213.1 Width (in.): 78.8 Height (in.): 56.4
http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel58.htm
Must be a T-bird site too, somewhere.
Comparing the Oxford 1949 Mercury to the Woodland Scenics 1949 Mercury, it is clear one of them is not to scale. The Oxford model looks like it is on steroids when next to the WS model. The data and photos presented above for the Edsel seems to make a strong case it is the Oxford model which is correct. If that is so, it would appear not only are the WS 1949 Mecurys out of scale but probably most of my WS, CMW, and Model Power vehicles. Of course more than one model needs to be checked out to determine if that is so. Sounds like I'm going to be googling for a lot of classic car dimensions. I can live with out of scale cars if they are all out of scale by the same percentage so that one doesn't make the others look wrong. It might be that even though the Oxfords might be correct, they are the ones that will need to be isolated from the rest because I have way too much invested in the others.
The Oxford is a model of the Citation.
Just to muddy the waters further, HO "scale" (3.5mm) and OO "scale" (4mm) trains both utilize the same track gauge-16.5mm. Remember, British and European trains are a lot smaller than North American trains. Just like automobiles--used to be.
jecorbett I know they use the metric system across the pond but 1/87th is 1/87th no matter how you are measuring. They only have to get this right once when they are tooling up to make these autos. How hard can it be to get it right. Do they think it’s not that important? Do they think it is not noticeable? If so, they are wrong on both counts. Because these vehicles are so nice looking I will find a place for them on my layout but it won’t be next to any of my other cars because they would stick out like a sore thumb. With the too small Euro cars, I’ve placed them near the backdrop. The Oxfords I will probably put near the front of the layout away from any other vehicles. Sort of an unplanned forced perspective. These Oxfords are very nice looking but unfortunately, I won’t be buying any more because of their size.
I know they use the metric system across the pond but 1/87th is 1/87th no matter how you are measuring. They only have to get this right once when they are tooling up to make these autos. How hard can it be to get it right. Do they think it’s not that important? Do they think it is not noticeable? If so, they are wrong on both counts. Because these vehicles are so nice looking I will find a place for them on my layout but it won’t be next to any of my other cars because they would stick out like a sore thumb. With the too small Euro cars, I’ve placed them near the backdrop. The Oxfords I will probably put near the front of the layout away from any other vehicles. Sort of an unplanned forced perspective. These Oxfords are very nice looking but unfortunately, I won’t be buying any more because of their size.
Considering the (UK) source, I imagine that you've fallen victim to British HO/OO scale (4mm/foot on 16.5mm gauge track.) That makes the actual scale 8/7 of American HO.
OTOH, I could probably use them. I model in 1:80 scale, a lot closer to OO than HO. Only thing is, American cars in back-country Japan in 1964 - not very likely. When I went there I traveled by train...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
jecorbett Comparing the Oxford 1949 Mercury to the Woodland Scenics 1949 Mercury, it is clear one of them is not to scale. The Oxford model looks like it is on steroids when next to the WS model.
Comparing the Oxford 1949 Mercury to the Woodland Scenics 1949 Mercury, it is clear one of them is not to scale. The Oxford model looks like it is on steroids when next to the WS model.
I was under the impression that the WS vehicles are not intended to be exact models but vaguely similar "close ... but" generics so as to avoid any license fees and permissions.
Prototype dimensions of a 1949 Mercury coupe are as follows: Total outside length:206.8 inches with a 118 inch wheelbase. Would be interested if someone who has bought the Oxford model would measure it with a scale ruler, as I am thinking I would like to buy one.
Chuck
I know someone that has a half dozen or more of those turd`s called Edsel`s (the real one`s).........I just look at him and say ....why?
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad