The Seedy Side of Town

[Anonymous]

Here in cleveland there all sorts of ghetto buildings and abandon stuff every where... It's good for modeling! Bad for the economy...

[lupo]

Thanks for sharing those memories and stories about that side of town, guys !
these stories are very inspiring to someone that grew on a very rural, very quite little village, ( pop 600 ) on the coastline of a small island in the southwest of Holland.
( my grandfather sold wooden shoes in the village shop, how corny can you get! )

maybe that's why modelling those big US cities are so interesting to me!
there is such a big contrast !

If I want to see a rural community I look outside, do not have to build me a model of that!
btw there were no trains on my island as well

[AntonioFP45]

Childhood can be wonderful!!

[Anonymous]

Antonio - remember playing stickball until someone broke a window and the game would end right then and there? Or "king of the mountain" ? Or, if you lived on the top floor of a walk-up apartment building like we did - no elevator for those not in the know - and you'd have to go to the bathroom, and there'd be no way you'd make it up all those stairs, so you'd dive for the bushes, or stand nonchalantly between two cars, and whiz away. . .Dropping water balloons off the apartment roof onto cranky old ladies, playing on fire escapes, and rummaging thru the basements of apartment building until the "super" (janitor) busted you - all were our ways of coping with life in the big city. It really was kind of cool to duck under the IRT turnstiles and meet your Dad on the platform when the train came in. Or to sneak under those turnstiles and ride into Manhattan to visit all the hobby shops and train stores and the Grandmother who lived
nearby. We all did such stuff when we were 7-10 yrs old, so it wasn't all that mean and hostile an environment - just low income. . .Heck, we were probably the worst element in the neighborhood. LOL
BILL

[AntonioFP45]

Wow Bill, [:D]

Your sure are stirring some of my memories! Was getting pretty bad in the 70s. I lived on the 3rd floor of a "Downtown Deco" style building along Bruckner Blvd (though it was pretty clean). The [orange]New Haven [/orange](Penn Central) tracks were across the street in a deep ditch where the trains whipped by. My dad moved us to the "North Bronx" in 1968 where things were much better. From the late 60s thru the late 70s the South Bronx literally looked like the Downtonwn Deco kits-------only worse!

Even though my overall childhood in New York was happy, I just don't like remembering the smelly trash, poop, and decay that was present in the South Bronx. I'm so glad that it's much cleaner today with the revitiliaztion programs going on.

Bill, Guys,

On a positve note though, it wasn't all dog poop and drunks. Some of the plesant things that you all can model that were also present were:

[A] Neighbors sitting on stoops chatting happily, or playing cards. [:D][8D]

[B] Kids on metal roller skates and/or riding "SoapBox skate boards" built from old crates and roller skates. [:o)]

The "Play Street Closed" signs where certain streets were closed temporarily so kids could play stick ball. (Any of you "northeasterners" remember those?)

[D] New York summers are sticky! Kids sometimes (illegal though) opened fire hyrdants and cooled off in the gushing water! Even some adults would jump in and out! Fire Dept. workers would arrive shortly and shut them off.

[E] And one thing no one mentioned that was rather neat: Groups of teens or young guys gathered on street corners singing "Acapello". Some of these guys were amazingly talented! People walking by would actually stop to watch and listen. A few of these groups actually made it to record companies.

For those of you not familiar, the style of singing was similar to the group known today as "Take Six". I believe "Take Six" sang the theme song to the the 1990s T.V sitcom "ROC". (The show was about a big, burly, but likable Philadelphia Garbage Truck operator (played by Charles Dutton).

Hope some of this can be of value to you all.

Peace!

[Anonymous]

I grew up - no, was dragged up - in Jackson Heights (Queens for those of you that never heard of the drug capital of the Northeast - at least a decasde or so ago, so I've been told), until we escaped to upstate New York. Since then, I've been on the move and have lived in all four corners of the US, and in Dallas for a brief period. But there's nothing quite like the South Bronx - especially during the pre-Rudi Giuliani days. . .Ah, yes - Jerome Ave. - the halfway point between my cousin's home in Jersey and my old place in Connecticut. Used to breath a sigh of relief everytime we made it thru there and the car didn't break down.

Re: the South Bronx - a car of mine was stolen once in north Jersey, and ended up in Honest Nick's Inpound Yard in the South Bronx, and from the time it entered the lot until I was able to get the insurance adjuster to settle the claim, the engine, trans, and entire leather interior 'disappeared' inside the yard. Someone with a sense of humor obviously named the place with their tongue firmly planted in their cheek.

Almost forgot to include a Greek diner and a couple of folks demanding to clean the windshield of cars stopped at an intersection. . .Remember that?
BILL

[AntonioFP45]

O.K

Now look here, Bill!! [:p]

I know that you've definitly visited the South Bronx some time in your life!! Your descriptions are just " Tooooooo Cotton pickin" accurate!!!!!!

Fess up! [:p]

[Anonymous]

Don't forget to include a 'bail bondsman', some 55 gallon drums w/ rubbish burning, a three legged cat scrounging in a tipped over & very dented metal trash can, a 'fingernails' joint, and a church bus - painted a gawd awful shade of green. Also, how about a van being hastily unloaded into a non-descript warehouse while a worker is spray painting it right in the driveway, and another is switching out the license plates? We'll need a couple of well-dressed and starry-eyed bleeding heart college students handing out political leaflets.

Some of the cars should have mismatched paint on a door or a hood, and get out the tiniest drill bit and 'knock out' the key hole in the trunks of a bunch of the cars to imply that they've been broken into. . . Photo-etched coat hangers would add a realistic touch for auto radio antennas, and drape an extension cord between two houses to depict the neighbor helping himself to someone else's power source.

A well seasoned road kill would add to the scene. Add some plugged-up street drains clogged w/ trash and leaves, some twisted chain link, broken pickets - just a few (be subtle -remember? LOL) - on a 'once was white' fence, some boarded up windows and torn window screens, a screen door that is left open at an angle, and clumps of grass growing thru a poorly patched asphalt driveway.

Tire tracks across the front 'lawn' of a house, and a pile of old car parts at the front door next to an old rusty washing machine and dingy old upholstered chair, would lend some flavor. Line up three or four old cars in a row in a driveway-each one older as the line progresses towards the rear of the house - to imply that they've lived there forever. And throw in a bunch of 'for rent' signs 'no tresspassing' signs, and some yellow police tape for flavor. And we must not forget to add some grafitti and tagging on some of the buildings (that's sure to reopen some old discussions - hope not) Almost forgot to add a panhandler or two. . .

If the seedy part of town is in the South, you'll absolutely need to depict a 'pig-pickin' in someone's back yard with a pig roasting away in a home-made smoker fab'd out of a large metal drum and mounted on a trailer pulled by a shiny red pick-up truck w/ 'rebel flags' and depending on the era, 'George Wallace for President' stickers all over it. Include a large group of beer-bellied men and women (yes beer-bellied women) just milling around listening to country music from a garage band.

Now think of the possibilities w/ 'smellavision and sound' - especially in a multi-national / typical ethnic neighborhood - all the foreign tongues, dogs barking continually, boom boxes, loud radios, woman screeming at their kids, their husband, and at the kid racing down the street that just hit their dog, neighbors and/or drug dealers arguing, the smell of curry, chili, barbeque, cabbage, back bacon, garlic and burnt tomato sauce, stale beer, road kills, piled-up garbage, auto exhaust, furnaces burning coal and oil, stagnant water, body odors, spray paint fumes, and the smell of sulfur - just because it is so bad. (recall chemistry class when a certain experiment stunk up the entire school?)

On second thought, perhaps modeling the pristine British country-side is more appealing with manacured hedge rows, tidy lawns, little stone footbridges, a graceful swan in a crystal clear lake and well dressed townspeople paying their respects to a church pastor after a service. . .NOT
BILL

[krump]

... and an out-of-control tobogganer sliding helplessly down the hill towards the street, with the touque having slipped over the eyes.

[tatans]

OK OK Now you have me really thinking about an area of town inhabited by "those Canadians" how about a winter scene,40 below with a bunch of Canucks standing around 2 cars trying to start it with booster cables in their plaid shirts and toques (wool caps) drinking cans of Moosehead beer, saying things like" I think the red goes to positive eh? " A couple of Mounties chasing a moose down an alley and some kids with their tongues stuck to a metal pole along with 400 kids playing hockey at the outdoor rink burning tires to keep warm. Add a sky filled with car exhaust because no one turns off their car or it won't start again---aaahhh memories eh? I've got to get started on that rink, thanks for the inspiration guys.

[krump]

for those that may not realize it, The Smell-a-Vision is a CLASSIC Emeraldisle line [(-D][(-D][(-D][C):-)]

PH - if there even the slightest chance that the visitors will even get a little wet ? then I'm never coming to visit ... Down doggie, Down......!!! [:D][^]

[PennsyHoosier]

LOL at where this thread has gone. I LOVE IT! Funny posts and some really great ideas. I'm wondering how to model a motorized "dog marks sleeping bum" scene. Should surely generate some interest among my visitors. [:D]

[tatans]

Antoniofp45: both my responses were jokes: I'm not really going to tear down my existing layout and recreate "The Devil Trackside Nightmare Neighborhood" Remember now, the title of this forum was to have some fun, but I'm sure NOT at someones expense. hopefully no one out there will attack me for my logging layout, after all, every tree cut down, rids the forest of a pile of spruce budworms.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: OOOOHHHH, a PC basher.

This is painful now...............

But this is what I used to model my "GHETTO"
Walthers Parkview Terrace Apts. 933-3176 & 933-3177
Rows of these and beat up cars! Beautiful!!!!!!! Broken glass( finely crushed)
I used pictures that I took while working on the rails in Port Elizibeth, NJ You could call that the Seedy Town !!![:(]

[Anonymous]

1. A currency exchange
2. A store front church
3. A bar every 73 1/2 feet.
4. A fast food place. (chicken, fish or chinese.)
5.A barber and or hair salon. (Hair Dimensions or Dimensions in Hair are good names)
6. The odd vacant lot, but sprinkle glitter on the ground to simulate the broken glass.
7. A borded up house with a garage that leans on a 30 degree angle to one side.
8. At least 3-4 apartment buildings with atleast one of the above businesses on the first floor.
9. Plenty of signs for Schlitz, Pabst, Hamms, etc.
10. Lots of patches in the pavement or in the cobblestones. No money to fix "those" streets.

[Anonymous]

Ohhhhhh boy, what a wild bunch we have tonight. [bow][bow][(-D][(-D][(-D]

LUPO: I am honored, it's not every day that one has a street named after them,

"Emeraldisle Blvd" , ya, kinda has a nice ring to it...thanks. BTW I gotta see this pink Caddy in front of Wicked Wandas...[:D][:D][:D][(-D][(-D]

BILL: Your comments about BLI, had me cracken up all afternoon, I just can't get that thought & picture out of my mind. Great imagination, I'll definately make a note in my things to do file.[(-D][(-D][(-D]

CHUCK: & KRUMP: I think we might even manage the tatoo somehow, great going.[:D][:D][:D]

VSMITH: I think ya got the right idea, be sure to include LUPOs Pink Caddy.[:D][:D][:D]

TATANS & MARK C. : Stick with us long enough on here and you, to, can have as sick a sense of humor as the rest of us, all it takes is a little imagination.[:D][:D][:D]

And to everyone in general, you guys have shown this can really be a fun topic with some great ideas, keep um coming. Personally, I think "Wicked Wandas", "Saulenas Tavern", & "Waterfront Willys" would make a great starting place along with the small corner bar from "Woodland Scenics". Then add sound from BLI and Smell-a-Vision and think it would be well on its way.[:D][:D][:D][:D]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

A couple of simple scene suggestions.
.

...a drunk asleep on the sidewalk beside a bar, for added effect, add a dog urinating on him, or a couple of stray cats standing or sleeping on him....

just to clarify, the idea for this was from the Pirates of the Caribean ride at Dizzyworld, in particular the scene of the drunk sleeping with the pigs....but I have seen a dog "mark" sleeping person in Griffith Park out here....

BTW working in a major downtown area allows me a window on a world most rural folks dont see..

I have seen drunks passed out on sidewalks in a pool of their own byproducts...

I have seen crazies drop their pants and take a dump right on the sidewalks, dont care whos looking...

I have seen hookers giving customers "quickies" outside of ratty bars...again dont care whos looking...

And the worst....a crazy woman who had to take a leak, so she just squats down on the sidewalk and goes, right thru her pants, then gets up, and keeps walking...

We can thank Ronnie Reagan for these wonderfull scenes after he closed down all the State mental hospitals and later declared that "The Homeless are homeless by choice"

Yeah... right....Lock'em up I say, for their own health...

[randybc2003]

I think that "seedy" doesn't necessarily mean "sleezy". The attitude and resources of the people in residence means a lot to a comunity's appearance. Some towns in the Old West had quiet a high opinion and took a lot of civic pride in their bordello. "Company Row" might have a neat little cabin with fresh paint and flowers in the yard, next to a worn and weathered shanty. Any building could be used, and just modify the paint/finish/weathering & details. DPM shows this in their delux kits.
I would use any of the kits I would use for any ANY side of town. A big, well kept church might be best sited "over the tracks"!

[krump]

the biker bar idea raises this question --- how can one possibly model the tattoos ???that would be most difficult - even for the HO scale figures that would be modelling them.[^]

I'm leaving the seedy side to the others (I don't want to remember the slums either), big country greenhouse covering acres for me ... [B)][^]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cwclark

Don't forget to include a model of the biker bar at the corner with the big fence around back for the guy that lives in the trailer next to the bar and feeds his pitbull carrying a base ball bat and a .45 on his side in case the dog gets loose....chuck

Chuck!

I couldn't stop laughing for at least 3 minutes as I imagined your scenario! We have a lot of bikers and pitbulls here in Tampa (most of the bikers are cool ) but the profile you described fits so many of them!

Still laughing out loud! Thanks, amigo!

[AntonioFP45]

Tatans, Orsonroy, Gentlemen, Ladies:

P L E A S E ! !, don't take this the wrong way but:
FORGET ABOUT THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS "P O P P Y G O O K ! ! "

I myself am a minority member (Black Hispanic) and I ABSOLUTELY CAN'T STAND the extremes to which we've taken Political Correctness to. A couple of my close friends that are modelers share my same sentiments. I'm sure that many of you do also, you just won't often admit openly in public for fear of being tagged as racist or insensitive. I'd make a lousy politician. My response to you "Keep it real! To thine own self be true!"

If modelers want to choose to model urban-run down or "seedy" scenes that look like scenarios they've seen in real life or in photos then by all means they should do so without feeling the "GUILT and HYPER-SENSITIVITY" that, IMHO, the "Bleeding-Hearts and hypocritical Hollywood crowd are relentlessly trying to ram down our throats!

There have been "seedy" and "run-down" real life urban scenarios in every culture in this country since at least the Industrial Revolution. In U.S cities like New York City and Chicago Irish, Polish, Italian, Black, Asian, Hispanic, and White American "poverty" areas with bars, "cathouses" and run down housing have been around since then. Why should we stick our heads in the sand to the reality? If you as a modeler are taking your display to a public train show and are worried about the PC wack-jobs, then just use people of a few different ethnic backgrounds or races in your scenes and tell any critics to "get out of their sheltered houses and walk in a city sometime!"[;)]

I basically stated earlier that I prefer not model these types of urban scenes as I find them gritty and depressing [V] and model railroading for me is a sort of "fun escape" that's far better than drugs, liquor, or prostitution. [4:-)][swg] For me, modeling these scenes is a stark reminder of what I wi***his world "didn't have".

Peace [:)]

[cwclark]

Don't forget to include a model of the biker bar at the corner with the big fence around back for the guy that lives in the trailer next to the bar and feeds his pitbull carrying a base ball bat and a .45 on his side in case the dog gets loose....chuck

[Anonymous]

On missions with my church, I have been to some bad areas and seen some people in great need. I almost cry every time. I have no wi***o put this on my model railroad. I don't think that modeling such things is quite right. I model places that are realistic, but happy. Of course that is just my opinion and I do not wish nor mean to offend anyone.

[mcouvillion]

You guys are too much! I'm sittin' here giggling because my mind doesn't work that way and I guess I don't have any imagination. The drunk with the dog took the cake! I'll have to get some creative types like you to come up with ideas for that portion of my layout.

Mark C.

[Anonymous]

The F&SM layout is an incredible work of art, but, in my humble opinion, a bit over the top. I grew up in NYC and my travels have taken me all over the USA, and being a railfan, and also one who has built many hot rods over the years, have been to many 'seedy neighborhoods' scrounging parts or visiting vendors, that were populated with junk yards, auto wrecking yards, land fills, industrial sites, blighted neighborhoods, down and out slums, the 'hood', barrios, and the like. Whether they were in LA, NYC, Dallas, Boston, Jacksonville, or Seattle, none of them look like some of the scenes depicted on the F&SM. I have George's book and marvel at the workmanship, as much as I admire his imagination, but sometimes too much of a 'bad' thing is just as bad as too much of a 'good' thing.

Having "a dog urinating on an unfortunate drunk" is just too much, and although clever, has anyone ever witnissed such an event? Why don't we depict hookers plying their trade, too? Or wouldn't a shade drawn in an upstairs 'establishment' be enough, especially if a less than sweeet young thing were posed in the entrance way with a business man in tow? God help us if BLI comes out with realistic sounds for the 'seedy side of town' ! Just what we'll need - sounds of belching, snorting, bed springs squeaking, hubcaps being stolen, gun shots, swearing in several languages, domestic disputes, police sirens, and the sounds from dishes being washed in the neighborhood mission. That's not the world I want to model, but to each his own. But, I have to admit that I've purchased Downtown Deco's Adams Ave. IV, and am on the lookout for Wicked Wandas. I just do not intend to overdo the scene. The subtle approach works for me. . .
(FYI - nothing I have said was meant to offend anyone, so please - flamers refrain from flaming. Thanks!)
BILL

[tatans]

YIKES; This is turning into a socio-psychotic topic, it seems to be bringing out some deep thoughts from peoples past. Economic, social, racial topics are now being adapted to the wonderful world of model railroading. Now you've got me afraid to visit someones layout lest there be some sinister psychotic message they are trying to portray, I may go right home and dismantle my layout and replace it with the "DEVIL'S NIGHTMARE NEIGHBORHOOD BESIDE THE TRACKS"---be careful out there--BOOGA-BOOGA ! !

[vsmith]

A couple of simple scene suggestions.

1. A car with a couple of girls leaning in a window. This could be done two ways, a couple of Shady Ladies talking to a John, or a couple of truant juvinile delinquents talking to a boyfreind.

2. a drunk asleep on the sidewalk beside a bar, for added effect, add a dog urinating on him, or a couple of stray cats standing or sleeping on him.

3. an stripped, abandoned car on blocks. Doesnt every neighborhood have on? for added effect have someone asleep in the back seat.

4. an open fire hydrant with kids running thru it, this could be tricky to model but could be done with Woodland Scenics resin waterfall material turned sideways.

5. brioken pavement, broken curbs, dirt lots with weeds, and the obligatory boarded
up buildings and run down buildings.

and finally, trash, trash and more trash, to see what I mean look at the F&SM, Sellios has crap all over the place , and thats what these areas looked like, even today.

[Anonymous]

Ray- I think that your approach is a valid one, and sometimes the less is more approach bears consideration. It's all too easy to overdue a good thing where it overly dominates a scene, and comes across as a carticature of the real thing - unless that's the effect one is after. Slums is slums, and a trip thru a rough and tumble neighborhood now, as it was back then, will reveal less than well painted structures, older rundown and sometimes abandoned vehicles, an occasional boarded up house, bars on some windows of businesses, cracked sidewalks, some litter in the streets, people hanging around, bent street signs, and in general a less than Better Homes & Gardens appearance. But it won't look like Sodem & Gomorah either.

(Malcom Furlow was a master of highly sceniced layout scenes, especially large scale, yet I felt that he overdid it and the entire layout looked like the worst of all possible worlds).

In the aforementioned slum area, a building or two a bit worse than the others will be far more credible, than the entire area appearing as it's ready for a bulldozing. Besides, hookers only hung out on street corners in plain sight late at night !

Re: Lupo's question - As far as appropriate vehicles - abandoned 20 yr old or so cars, perhaps a couple of weather beaten pick up trucks, a taxi or too (lots of poor folks cant' afford their own cars, as well as taxis - often called to take those overly -ntoxicated home from the local watering hole, perhaps a police cruiser, and any vehicles belonging to inhabitants of the neighborhood would most likely be fairly basic transportation Fords and Chevys type cars - often 10-20 yrs old, with an occassional flashy Buick, Lincoln or Cadillac to represent those with upside down priorities. And there could be the local pimpmobile - like Lupo's Cadillac. (not actually Lupo's, but the one he mentioned - he's not a pimp!) If there are commercial firms doing business in the locale, delivery trucks would be most appropriate, and even a 18 wheeler if the concern is large enough, and near the tracks. Don't forget a US Mail truck, and any thru traffic - which could be most anything else - new or old. A few non-running cars or trucks in someones's back yard, and scattered around a gas station - perhaps missing a wheel, or with the hood up in the air would work as well. Crumple a fender or dent in a door, and lightly weather most of the cars, with one or two, nice and shiny, as if just acquired or belonging to someone who took pride in their possession. Of course a neighborhood used car dealer gives one the possibility to model a whole string of preowned - but probably mostly transportation / work type vehicles - pickup trucks, small vans, and sedans. The owner of that dealer probably drove the nicest car in the neighborhood, however.

Just some thoughts on the subject. . .
BILL

[orsonroy]

While researching the cities of Bloomington and Peoria for my current layout, I ran across LOTS of seedy area information. The Library of congress website led me to two VERY interesting groups of images for both towns, taken in the just pre-WWII timeframe.

Peoria was the second largest city in Illinois at the time, and so had it's fair mix or rich, middle-class, poor, and destitute. The riverbank area was (is?) especially hardscrabble, and that's where most of the industrail base and railroads were (are). The LOC website includes a small series of photos showing shantytowns along the river, a slightly larger series of photos showing the seedier parts of downtown (lots of bars and five and dimes), and a pretty extensive section exposing the brothels and prostitutes in town. Based on this information, coupled with my maps and excursions of the Peoria area, I really need to model lots of slums.

Bloomington, the eastern terminus of my layout, is no proze either. While it's smaller than Peoria and has a much smaller poor population, most of the working poor lived around the GM&O facilities, and where the Go-Mo interchanged with the NKP and P&E. While not as depressing as where I'm modeling around Peoria, the nature of the area was a very rough blue-collar area. And based on a 1930s photo I picked up on Ebay, as well as an article in the Illinois Historical magazine, I need to model a brothel right across the tracks from the Go-Mo's general headquarters! (first floor lunch counter, second floor.....well, you know)

Modelers don't realize just how poor the areas around the tracks really are in urbanized areas. Since my primary passion is history in general, I want to get the area right. While I won't have mounds of trash in the streets, nor stew bums sleeping it off in the gutters, I will try to find a balance to model the area properly, without falling back on harsh caricatures and stereotypes. I'm almost finished laying track in those areas, so scenery will follow soon. I think I'm heading into a pretty murky area!

[lupo]

Hi Emeraldisle: great you bring this up again!
still collecting models for my seedy side of town, wich is btw going to get called
"Emeraldisle Boulevard"
There are some beautiful kits around by Downtown Deco wich imo has the right feel I am looking for



look at Adams avenue pt 1 - 4 these are very nice detailed kits ,

another nice structure is "Tenement Row "by North Eastern Scale Models "



what kind of cars would the people drive living in this part of town in the late 50ies early 60ies, I already have a pink Cadillac convertible for Wanda's management

but other transportation ideas are welcome.