The Seedy Side of Town

[Anonymous]

Ok guys, lets have a little fun with this, keep it clean, you know, youngsters on here too, but with all the great kits currently on the market from Woodland Scenics to Barmills, one could really have some fun modeling the bad side of town, especially if you model the Steam Era. This IS the side of town where most Rail Roads went through up thru the 60's, then Urban Renewal began to clean things up. In the North Eastern Cities, this was pretty typical. So the deal is this, if you were to model the wrong side of town, you know, "SKIDROW" etc, what would you model, what kits or buildups would you use, and to what extent would you model this most interesting side of town? I know, earlier this year, we kicked around "WICKED WANDAS" from Barmills, but we have alot of new people on here since then and it might be interesting to hear from them on this subject too.

[rrinker]

Two thoughts. One, George Sellios has a great skid row modelled on one end of the Franklin and South Manchester. There was a two-page item in MR some time ago with Mike Tylick photos of the area. Don't have the issue handy, I belive it was late 80's.
Second, concering the availability of items like Bar Mills' Wicked Wandas, there was a half page article in the local newspaper covering the train show this weekend (Allentown, PA, if anyone's interested) and the article OPENED by talking about this seedy influence. There was a little fluff about people looking for more accurate models these days (hmm, but Virginian Berkshires?), but the main focus was on the availability of kits like Wicked Wandas, and various figures. Even poked some fun (although I think the intent was to infer some sort of racism) at the names of the rock climbers in the Scenic Express line. Why the hostile tone of this article I do not know, but anyone who had actually been to the show would have seen that this hobby cuts across all race, gender, and age lines.
Maybe the author (female) was offended by the modelled scene (which was nothing more than a structure and a figure in part of a town scene). Well, there is indeed a trend for more realistic modelling these days, and all you need do is drive down to that part of town and see for yourself what's really there.

--Randy

[tatans]

Hey ! Hey ! All you plutocrats, are you making fun of us, just where do you think WE live? I can hear you now "OK kids in the car, were going to gawk at those poor slobs on the East side of town" (By the way--"Wanda" is my Aunt) Well, just for that , I'm going to model on my layout some $350,000(and up) houses in suburban nondescript neighborhoods filled with SUV's and basketball hoops on every driveway, Say, didn't we see you down here hanging around some of our "finer" areas of town?

[PennsyHoosier]

LOL at this thread. I'm glad I live in the country. [:D]

[chutton01]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Hey ! Hey ! All you plutocrats, are you making fun of us, just where do you think WE live? I can hear you now "OK kids in the car, were going to gawk at those poor slobs on the East side of town" (By the way--"Wanda" is my Aunt) Well, just for that , I'm going to model on my layout some $350,000(and up) houses in suburban nondescript neighborhoods filled with SUV's and basketball hoops on every driveway, Say, didn't we see you down here hanging around some of our "finer" areas of town?

Hey, Bachmann has had Plasticville Ranches and Cape Cods for decades now, and strip mall stores too.
But no abandoned apartment buildings or decaying farmbuildings, like you would need for a Penn Central layout...

[PennsyHoosier]

OOOOHHHH, a PC basher. [:D]

[krump]

welcome back Emeraldisle! - been a while since I repled to one of your posts, good to see you back at the forum. how is your layout project coming along?

this is a riot... complete with junkyard dogs etc, those barmills kits are great...[8D], I'm thinking a Saloon at some point. panhandlers and squeegie kids would be more modern era
then again, if it is a country theme - a large country garden, acres of greenhouse, or a hayfield might present as quite seedy in itself (relax, I'm punning [swg])

[AntonioFP45]

Interesting points. This type of realism can really be appreciated by many modelers and non-modelers.

However, I guess having grown up in poor areas, I'd rather model a "cleaned up" version of it since its "my little world" and I don't constantly want to remember the:

Garbage in the streets,
Litter and dog poop on sidewalks,
Bars where people puked or urinated outside of them after heavy drinking and damaging their livers & kidneys.
Drug addicts shooting up (they were around, but I was fortunate enough not to see them.)
Dirty city buses with graffitti on them,
Dilapidated buildings in "desperate" need of paint jobs and clean windows.
My mother pushed and knocked down on a cold sidewalk as she held me while a low-life thug ripped her purse off her arm. (Thankfully she survived!)

I was very blessed in that I had parents that kept our home "ultra clean" and fortunate enough that I was always near rail lines that saw lots of action after we moved twice.

In my model world, there will be weathered buildings, cracked streets and sidewalks but the streets and alleys will be light on the litter and the "skid bars and cathouses" won't be a part of the scene. Even the "lower income" people will have a reasonably clean neighborhood.

For me, I model to relax and "get away" from the very things that cause me saddness and/or stress.

Peace.

[CNJ831]

How one goes about depicting the "seedy side of town" depends largely on whether you are attempting to render reality or fantasy. For the most part, the steam era concept of rundown, grimmy shacks, hole-in-the-wall bars, and dilapidate houses of ill-repute, seen so often in Hollywood films and modeled on grand-scale layouts, rarely existed in the real world. During the steam era the industrial areas of town near the tracks often showed significant weathering because of the soot but were rarely as dilapidated as most laser-cut model kit illustrations would have you believe (broken windows, missing clapboards, severly damaged roofing, no paint, etc.). Such conditions would deter, rather than invite, new customers and was avoided.

Regarding redlight districts, during most of the steam era, Kingston, NY had the reputation of being the redlight capital of New York State. But the illustrations in books written about it indicate well kept structures of all types that, except for the numerous bars, outwardly gave no particular hint of their true purpose. It was more the women in windows and on porches, the men in the streets after dark, plus the sounds (loud piano music, etc.) that gave indication something unusual was going on.

Yes, from the late 1950's into the 1970's many inner-city neighborhoods and even some less affluent suburbs, did decline into areas of rundown or ruined buildings, grime, litter, and lost hope but there were no Wicked Wanda-like establishments or other model railroad "caricature" buildings to be found there.

CNJ831

[lupo]

Hi Emeraldisle: great you bring this up again!
still collecting models for my seedy side of town, wich is btw going to get called
"Emeraldisle Boulevard"
There are some beautiful kits around by Downtown Deco wich imo has the right feel I am looking for



look at Adams avenue pt 1 - 4 these are very nice detailed kits ,

another nice structure is "Tenement Row "by North Eastern Scale Models "



what kind of cars would the people drive living in this part of town in the late 50ies early 60ies, I already have a pink Cadillac convertible for Wanda's management

but other transportation ideas are welcome.

[orsonroy]

While researching the cities of Bloomington and Peoria for my current layout, I ran across LOTS of seedy area information. The Library of congress website led me to two VERY interesting groups of images for both towns, taken in the just pre-WWII timeframe.

Peoria was the second largest city in Illinois at the time, and so had it's fair mix or rich, middle-class, poor, and destitute. The riverbank area was (is?) especially hardscrabble, and that's where most of the industrail base and railroads were (are). The LOC website includes a small series of photos showing shantytowns along the river, a slightly larger series of photos showing the seedier parts of downtown (lots of bars and five and dimes), and a pretty extensive section exposing the brothels and prostitutes in town. Based on this information, coupled with my maps and excursions of the Peoria area, I really need to model lots of slums.

Bloomington, the eastern terminus of my layout, is no proze either. While it's smaller than Peoria and has a much smaller poor population, most of the working poor lived around the GM&O facilities, and where the Go-Mo interchanged with the NKP and P&E. While not as depressing as where I'm modeling around Peoria, the nature of the area was a very rough blue-collar area. And based on a 1930s photo I picked up on Ebay, as well as an article in the Illinois Historical magazine, I need to model a brothel right across the tracks from the Go-Mo's general headquarters! (first floor lunch counter, second floor.....well, you know)

Modelers don't realize just how poor the areas around the tracks really are in urbanized areas. Since my primary passion is history in general, I want to get the area right. While I won't have mounds of trash in the streets, nor stew bums sleeping it off in the gutters, I will try to find a balance to model the area properly, without falling back on harsh caricatures and stereotypes. I'm almost finished laying track in those areas, so scenery will follow soon. I think I'm heading into a pretty murky area!

[Anonymous]

Ray- I think that your approach is a valid one, and sometimes the less is more approach bears consideration. It's all too easy to overdue a good thing where it overly dominates a scene, and comes across as a carticature of the real thing - unless that's the effect one is after. Slums is slums, and a trip thru a rough and tumble neighborhood now, as it was back then, will reveal less than well painted structures, older rundown and sometimes abandoned vehicles, an occasional boarded up house, bars on some windows of businesses, cracked sidewalks, some litter in the streets, people hanging around, bent street signs, and in general a less than Better Homes & Gardens appearance. But it won't look like Sodem & Gomorah either.

(Malcom Furlow was a master of highly sceniced layout scenes, especially large scale, yet I felt that he overdid it and the entire layout looked like the worst of all possible worlds).

In the aforementioned slum area, a building or two a bit worse than the others will be far more credible, than the entire area appearing as it's ready for a bulldozing. Besides, hookers only hung out on street corners in plain sight late at night !

Re: Lupo's question - As far as appropriate vehicles - abandoned 20 yr old or so cars, perhaps a couple of weather beaten pick up trucks, a taxi or too (lots of poor folks cant' afford their own cars, as well as taxis - often called to take those overly -ntoxicated home from the local watering hole, perhaps a police cruiser, and any vehicles belonging to inhabitants of the neighborhood would most likely be fairly basic transportation Fords and Chevys type cars - often 10-20 yrs old, with an occassional flashy Buick, Lincoln or Cadillac to represent those with upside down priorities. And there could be the local pimpmobile - like Lupo's Cadillac. (not actually Lupo's, but the one he mentioned - he's not a pimp!) If there are commercial firms doing business in the locale, delivery trucks would be most appropriate, and even a 18 wheeler if the concern is large enough, and near the tracks. Don't forget a US Mail truck, and any thru traffic - which could be most anything else - new or old. A few non-running cars or trucks in someones's back yard, and scattered around a gas station - perhaps missing a wheel, or with the hood up in the air would work as well. Crumple a fender or dent in a door, and lightly weather most of the cars, with one or two, nice and shiny, as if just acquired or belonging to someone who took pride in their possession. Of course a neighborhood used car dealer gives one the possibility to model a whole string of preowned - but probably mostly transportation / work type vehicles - pickup trucks, small vans, and sedans. The owner of that dealer probably drove the nicest car in the neighborhood, however.

Just some thoughts on the subject. . .
BILL

[vsmith]

A couple of simple scene suggestions.

1. A car with a couple of girls leaning in a window. This could be done two ways, a couple of Shady Ladies talking to a John, or a couple of truant juvinile delinquents talking to a boyfreind.

2. a drunk asleep on the sidewalk beside a bar, for added effect, add a dog urinating on him, or a couple of stray cats standing or sleeping on him.

3. an stripped, abandoned car on blocks. Doesnt every neighborhood have on? for added effect have someone asleep in the back seat.

4. an open fire hydrant with kids running thru it, this could be tricky to model but could be done with Woodland Scenics resin waterfall material turned sideways.

5. brioken pavement, broken curbs, dirt lots with weeds, and the obligatory boarded
up buildings and run down buildings.

and finally, trash, trash and more trash, to see what I mean look at the F&SM, Sellios has crap all over the place , and thats what these areas looked like, even today.

[tatans]

YIKES; This is turning into a socio-psychotic topic, it seems to be bringing out some deep thoughts from peoples past. Economic, social, racial topics are now being adapted to the wonderful world of model railroading. Now you've got me afraid to visit someones layout lest there be some sinister psychotic message they are trying to portray, I may go right home and dismantle my layout and replace it with the "DEVIL'S NIGHTMARE NEIGHBORHOOD BESIDE THE TRACKS"---be careful out there--BOOGA-BOOGA ! !

[Anonymous]

The F&SM layout is an incredible work of art, but, in my humble opinion, a bit over the top. I grew up in NYC and my travels have taken me all over the USA, and being a railfan, and also one who has built many hot rods over the years, have been to many 'seedy neighborhoods' scrounging parts or visiting vendors, that were populated with junk yards, auto wrecking yards, land fills, industrial sites, blighted neighborhoods, down and out slums, the 'hood', barrios, and the like. Whether they were in LA, NYC, Dallas, Boston, Jacksonville, or Seattle, none of them look like some of the scenes depicted on the F&SM. I have George's book and marvel at the workmanship, as much as I admire his imagination, but sometimes too much of a 'bad' thing is just as bad as too much of a 'good' thing.

Having "a dog urinating on an unfortunate drunk" is just too much, and although clever, has anyone ever witnissed such an event? Why don't we depict hookers plying their trade, too? Or wouldn't a shade drawn in an upstairs 'establishment' be enough, especially if a less than sweeet young thing were posed in the entrance way with a business man in tow? God help us if BLI comes out with realistic sounds for the 'seedy side of town' ! Just what we'll need - sounds of belching, snorting, bed springs squeaking, hubcaps being stolen, gun shots, swearing in several languages, domestic disputes, police sirens, and the sounds from dishes being washed in the neighborhood mission. That's not the world I want to model, but to each his own. But, I have to admit that I've purchased Downtown Deco's Adams Ave. IV, and am on the lookout for Wicked Wandas. I just do not intend to overdo the scene. The subtle approach works for me. . .
(FYI - nothing I have said was meant to offend anyone, so please - flamers refrain from flaming. Thanks!)
BILL

[mcouvillion]

You guys are too much! I'm sittin' here giggling because my mind doesn't work that way and I guess I don't have any imagination. The drunk with the dog took the cake! I'll have to get some creative types like you to come up with ideas for that portion of my layout.

Mark C.

[Anonymous]

On missions with my church, I have been to some bad areas and seen some people in great need. I almost cry every time. I have no wi***o put this on my model railroad. I don't think that modeling such things is quite right. I model places that are realistic, but happy. Of course that is just my opinion and I do not wish nor mean to offend anyone.

[cwclark]

Don't forget to include a model of the biker bar at the corner with the big fence around back for the guy that lives in the trailer next to the bar and feeds his pitbull carrying a base ball bat and a .45 on his side in case the dog gets loose....chuck

[AntonioFP45]

Tatans, Orsonroy, Gentlemen, Ladies:

P L E A S E ! !, don't take this the wrong way but:
FORGET ABOUT THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS "P O P P Y G O O K ! ! "

I myself am a minority member (Black Hispanic) and I ABSOLUTELY CAN'T STAND the extremes to which we've taken Political Correctness to. A couple of my close friends that are modelers share my same sentiments. I'm sure that many of you do also, you just won't often admit openly in public for fear of being tagged as racist or insensitive. I'd make a lousy politician. My response to you "Keep it real! To thine own self be true!"

If modelers want to choose to model urban-run down or "seedy" scenes that look like scenarios they've seen in real life or in photos then by all means they should do so without feeling the "GUILT and HYPER-SENSITIVITY" that, IMHO, the "Bleeding-Hearts and hypocritical Hollywood crowd are relentlessly trying to ram down our throats!

There have been "seedy" and "run-down" real life urban scenarios in every culture in this country since at least the Industrial Revolution. In U.S cities like New York City and Chicago Irish, Polish, Italian, Black, Asian, Hispanic, and White American "poverty" areas with bars, "cathouses" and run down housing have been around since then. Why should we stick our heads in the sand to the reality? If you as a modeler are taking your display to a public train show and are worried about the PC wack-jobs, then just use people of a few different ethnic backgrounds or races in your scenes and tell any critics to "get out of their sheltered houses and walk in a city sometime!"[;)]

I basically stated earlier that I prefer not model these types of urban scenes as I find them gritty and depressing [V] and model railroading for me is a sort of "fun escape" that's far better than drugs, liquor, or prostitution. [4:-)][swg] For me, modeling these scenes is a stark reminder of what I wi***his world "didn't have".

Peace [:)]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cwclark

Don't forget to include a model of the biker bar at the corner with the big fence around back for the guy that lives in the trailer next to the bar and feeds his pitbull carrying a base ball bat and a .45 on his side in case the dog gets loose....chuck

Chuck!

I couldn't stop laughing for at least 3 minutes as I imagined your scenario! We have a lot of bikers and pitbulls here in Tampa (most of the bikers are cool ) but the profile you described fits so many of them!

Still laughing out loud! Thanks, amigo!

[krump]

the biker bar idea raises this question --- how can one possibly model the tattoos ???that would be most difficult - even for the HO scale figures that would be modelling them.[^]

I'm leaving the seedy side to the others (I don't want to remember the slums either), big country greenhouse covering acres for me ... [B)][^]

[randybc2003]

I think that "seedy" doesn't necessarily mean "sleezy". The attitude and resources of the people in residence means a lot to a comunity's appearance. Some towns in the Old West had quiet a high opinion and took a lot of civic pride in their bordello. "Company Row" might have a neat little cabin with fresh paint and flowers in the yard, next to a worn and weathered shanty. Any building could be used, and just modify the paint/finish/weathering & details. DPM shows this in their delux kits.
I would use any of the kits I would use for any ANY side of town. A big, well kept church might be best sited "over the tracks"!

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

A couple of simple scene suggestions.
.

...a drunk asleep on the sidewalk beside a bar, for added effect, add a dog urinating on him, or a couple of stray cats standing or sleeping on him....

just to clarify, the idea for this was from the Pirates of the Caribean ride at Dizzyworld, in particular the scene of the drunk sleeping with the pigs....but I have seen a dog "mark" sleeping person in Griffith Park out here....

BTW working in a major downtown area allows me a window on a world most rural folks dont see..

I have seen drunks passed out on sidewalks in a pool of their own byproducts...

I have seen crazies drop their pants and take a dump right on the sidewalks, dont care whos looking...

I have seen hookers giving customers "quickies" outside of ratty bars...again dont care whos looking...

And the worst....a crazy woman who had to take a leak, so she just squats down on the sidewalk and goes, right thru her pants, then gets up, and keeps walking...

We can thank Ronnie Reagan for these wonderfull scenes after he closed down all the State mental hospitals and later declared that "The Homeless are homeless by choice"

Yeah... right....Lock'em up I say, for their own health...

[Anonymous]

Ohhhhhh boy, what a wild bunch we have tonight. [bow][bow][(-D][(-D][(-D]

LUPO: I am honored, it's not every day that one has a street named after them,

"Emeraldisle Blvd" , ya, kinda has a nice ring to it...thanks. BTW I gotta see this pink Caddy in front of Wicked Wandas...[:D][:D][:D][(-D][(-D]

BILL: Your comments about BLI, had me cracken up all afternoon, I just can't get that thought & picture out of my mind. Great imagination, I'll definately make a note in my things to do file.[(-D][(-D][(-D]

CHUCK: & KRUMP: I think we might even manage the tatoo somehow, great going.[:D][:D][:D]

VSMITH: I think ya got the right idea, be sure to include LUPOs Pink Caddy.[:D][:D][:D]

TATANS & MARK C. : Stick with us long enough on here and you, to, can have as sick a sense of humor as the rest of us, all it takes is a little imagination.[:D][:D][:D]

And to everyone in general, you guys have shown this can really be a fun topic with some great ideas, keep um coming. Personally, I think "Wicked Wandas", "Saulenas Tavern", & "Waterfront Willys" would make a great starting place along with the small corner bar from "Woodland Scenics". Then add sound from BLI and Smell-a-Vision and think it would be well on its way.[:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

1. A currency exchange
2. A store front church
3. A bar every 73 1/2 feet.
4. A fast food place. (chicken, fish or chinese.)
5.A barber and or hair salon. (Hair Dimensions or Dimensions in Hair are good names)
6. The odd vacant lot, but sprinkle glitter on the ground to simulate the broken glass.
7. A borded up house with a garage that leans on a 30 degree angle to one side.
8. At least 3-4 apartment buildings with atleast one of the above businesses on the first floor.
9. Plenty of signs for Schlitz, Pabst, Hamms, etc.
10. Lots of patches in the pavement or in the cobblestones. No money to fix "those" streets.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: OOOOHHHH, a PC basher.

This is painful now...............

But this is what I used to model my "GHETTO"
Walthers Parkview Terrace Apts. 933-3176 & 933-3177
Rows of these and beat up cars! Beautiful!!!!!!! Broken glass( finely crushed)
I used pictures that I took while working on the rails in Port Elizibeth, NJ You could call that the Seedy Town !!![:(]

[tatans]

Antoniofp45: both my responses were jokes: I'm not really going to tear down my existing layout and recreate "The Devil Trackside Nightmare Neighborhood" Remember now, the title of this forum was to have some fun, but I'm sure NOT at someones expense. hopefully no one out there will attack me for my logging layout, after all, every tree cut down, rids the forest of a pile of spruce budworms.

[PennsyHoosier]

LOL at where this thread has gone. I LOVE IT! Funny posts and some really great ideas. I'm wondering how to model a motorized "dog marks sleeping bum" scene. Should surely generate some interest among my visitors. [:D]

[krump]

for those that may not realize it, The Smell-a-Vision is a CLASSIC Emeraldisle line [(-D][(-D][(-D][C):-)]

PH - if there even the slightest chance that the visitors will even get a little wet ? then I'm never coming to visit ... Down doggie, Down......!!! [:D][^]

[tatans]

OK OK Now you have me really thinking about an area of town inhabited by "those Canadians" how about a winter scene,40 below with a bunch of Canucks standing around 2 cars trying to start it with booster cables in their plaid shirts and toques (wool caps) drinking cans of Moosehead beer, saying things like" I think the red goes to positive eh? " A couple of Mounties chasing a moose down an alley and some kids with their tongues stuck to a metal pole along with 400 kids playing hockey at the outdoor rink burning tires to keep warm. Add a sky filled with car exhaust because no one turns off their car or it won't start again---aaahhh memories eh? I've got to get started on that rink, thanks for the inspiration guys.