BRAKIE NP2626 Truly for me, if I did not have something to build; or, something to wire, paint and weather, track to lay, etc. and had to rely on operating my layout as my enjoyment of the hobby, I would sell off all my model railroads stuff and use the money to find some other hobby to enjoy. If all I wanted out of this hobby is to build things I would sell my trains and build model ships or NASCAR models. For me operation is the main key that has held my hobby interest over the past 60 years. I've spent a ton of money on models and building several ISLs over the years so,why not get a return out of my investment? Why spend thousands of dollars on cars, locomotives,structures vehicles etc if I don't use 'em?
NP2626 Truly for me, if I did not have something to build; or, something to wire, paint and weather, track to lay, etc. and had to rely on operating my layout as my enjoyment of the hobby, I would sell off all my model railroads stuff and use the money to find some other hobby to enjoy.
If all I wanted out of this hobby is to build things I would sell my trains and build model ships or NASCAR models.
For me operation is the main key that has held my hobby interest over the past 60 years. I've spent a ton of money on models and building several ISLs over the years so,why not get a return out of my investment?
Why spend thousands of dollars on cars, locomotives,structures vehicles etc if I don't use 'em?
I couldn't agree more!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
MJ4562 What does one do differently when designing a model railroad specifically for solo operation as opposed to multiple operators? Are there actually differences in design and track layout or strictly creature comforts? Do certain modelling topics better lend themselves to solo operation? Maybe these questions deserve a separate thread but I thought I would add here since they seem directly related to the original question.
What does one do differently when designing a model railroad specifically for solo operation as opposed to multiple operators?
Are there actually differences in design and track layout or strictly creature comforts?
Do certain modelling topics better lend themselves to solo operation?
Maybe these questions deserve a separate thread but I thought I would add here since they seem directly related to the original question.
gregc MJ4562 What does one do differently when designing a model railroad specifically for solo operation as opposed to multiple operators? as some have already said, aisle space is one consideration. I would think having trackwork and wiring to allow more than one train to run at the same time are other considerations. But my question was more about how to make operating the railroad by yourself interesting. It appears that running trains is much more enjoyable when others people are either watching or helping to run trains.
MJ4562 What does one do differently when designing a model railroad specifically for solo operation as opposed to multiple operators?
as some have already said, aisle space is one consideration. I would think having trackwork and wiring to allow more than one train to run at the same time are other considerations.
But my question was more about how to make operating the railroad by yourself interesting.
It appears that running trains is much more enjoyable when others people are either watching or helping to run trains.
With DCC, the wiring is going to be pretty much the same regardless of the number of operators. What will change is the number of throttles. I operate solo on a double track mainline. I've mounted two wireless throttles on a small cutting board that had a slot in it that I can uset hold the board. I like to be able to operate two trains simulatenously and it is difficult to do if you have to keep toggling back and forth. Generally westbound trains operate on one throttle and eastbound trains on the other. I also have a tehthered throttle which I use at my claissification yard and engine terminal. The layout is large enough and has wide enough aisles to accomodate multiple operators but I have no plans for that.
MJ4562What does one do differently when designing a model railroad specifically for solo operation as opposed to multiple operators?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
For me, I really don't have a choice but to operate solo.
None of my friends are into trains. Sure, they like seeing my basement and watching the trains run whenever they do visit, which is rare, but when I start talking about operations, they've typically wanted to go back upstairs.
Whenever my family visits, they aren't really interested in operations, just seeing what I've been up to with the trains. I also get nervous about my brother getting near the controls since he like to run trains like slot cars.
There are clubs around, but I don't have time for that between my job and trying to get my business going.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
On that we are polar opposites. To me the most enjoyable part of the hobby is running trains whether full fledged operations or just running them from one end of the layout to the other. The stuff you mention is just a means to an end. If I had the financial resources, I would gladly hire someone to do what to me is the grunt work. Some parts of it such as scenery building is enjoyable but for the most part I find layout building to be tedious. If I could snap my fingers and have the layout I envision I would do so in an instant.
For me, a layout is NEVER "done".......
There is simply a "pause in forward progression".....!!;)
May your freight ALWAYS roll smoothly...and ON TIME!!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
gregc ... but what happens when the layout is done?
... but what happens when the layout is done?
Alton Junction
I've been re-reading Tony Koester's book on Realistic Operation. He suggests a simple approach on an oval layout by simply selecting cars based on odd/even car numbers. But he later describes using car cards not specifying where to spot a car but its destination, which may be off the layout and requires a dispatcher to determine a route/interchange.
As his book title suggest, I believe Koester is focused on modeling railroad operations, including as many of the jobs on a railroad as possible. He is not trying to bring a railroad to life by operating it, but building a railroad so that he and other operations modelers can operate one. In other words, he is more of a model operator than a model railroader.
But operations at a the club layout I'm a member at is mostly running trains from one destination to another. Waybill switching occurs infrequently and trains are as small as 2 unit RDCs to 85 car coal trains. So even on a large layout, simply running trains can be enjoyable ... when there are enough people.
Unless a modeler already has a group of fellow modelers who help build and ultimately will help operate the layout, I assume that almost all layouts are designed to operate solo by the modeler, even if there is a 2nd throttle. But I am not suprised to read that most (but not all) of us don't operate our railroads using something similar to card cards and/or have a train schedule with trains running from staging onto or through the layout.
It appears that for many of us, our layouts only really "operate", however we define that, when we share them.
I think many of us find building the layout is more interesting because there are many different challenges from benchwork, trackwork, wiring, electronics, scenery, structures, engine maintanance, weathering, ... and we have a choice of which challenge to tackle each time. Building is fun because it's not the same thing every day.
I think operating with others is inherently diverse. And I realize each operating session is involves a different set of industries and cars to switch. But I don't think a different set of switch moves is challenging enough for most of us.
I appreciate the responses of those describing how they actually operate their railroads. I think for many of us
ACY I think Andy's Gang was some time before the Wild Bill Hickock/Jingles days. "Froggy", the magic frog, would appear out of a puff of smoke saying "Hiya, Hiya Kids!" The camera then cut to what appeared to be stock footage of the audience: All kids laughing their fool heads off. I'm not 100% sure of my facts here. I'm having a Brian Williams moment. I guess you had to be there. Tom
I think Andy's Gang was some time before the Wild Bill Hickock/Jingles days. "Froggy", the magic frog, would appear out of a puff of smoke saying "Hiya, Hiya Kids!" The camera then cut to what appeared to be stock footage of the audience: All kids laughing their fool heads off.
I'm not 100% sure of my facts here. I'm having a Brian Williams moment.
I guess you had to be there.
Tom
We're both in danger of doing a Brian Williams here so I checked Wiki to see if I could validate my memories. The Adventures of Wild Bill Hickok ran in syndication from 1951 thru 1955 and then on CBS from 1955 thru 1958. Andy's Gang ran from from 1955 thru 1960. It was the successor to Smilin' Ed McConnell which Andy took over following McConnell's fatal heart attack in 1954. I can't find anything that indicates they played episode's of Wild Bill Hickok during Andy's Gang. I'm wondering if The Adventures of Wild Bill Hickok ran after Andy's gang on Saturday mornings and since Andy Divine was part of both shows, in my head I might have had the impression it was part of the same show.
Capt. Grimek Yep, Pardner, that's an accurate memory! I was a huge Wild Bill fan. I was actually shocked later in adulthood to find out what a scoundrel he really was and that he looked nothing like Guy Madison! Jim
Yep, Pardner, that's an accurate memory! I was a huge Wild Bill fan. I was actually shocked later in adulthood to find out what a scoundrel he really was and that he looked nothing like Guy Madison!
Jim
World Harvest Television which is a religous channel fills their afternoon lineup with some classic westerns which I'm betting they can get for a song. Right now they are playing Lone Ranger and Roy Roger reruns but a few years ago they were playing Annie Oakley and the Cisco Kid (colorized) reruns. A lot of those 1950s westerns have been preserved on DVD. I'm going to look into seeing if Wild Bill Hickok is available.
I enjoy solo operation as an escape from the sensory overload of life. This is very important as I have Aspergers Syndrome and prefer lots of solitary time after dealing with work and the stress of everyday life. My layout, as well as layouts of the other members of the local club all interchange freight with each other. So I always have a local freight to run. I get my weekly fill of operation with others at the clubhouse. But after a stressfull day at work or out at a social gathering, the solitude of running a local freight is very relaxing for me. I dont even use sound, my mind fills in those blanks with all the ground shaking bass when I ease a heavy freight into motion with one of my steamers. Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
NP2626 jecorbett ACY I wonder how many Andy Devine fans know what you're talking about. Tom I'm old enough (63) to remember Andy Devine but I have to confess I don't remember those expressions. Mainly I remember him as Wild Bill Hickok's sidekick. Among other things he played a spinner of tall tales on a Twilight Zone episode and was the timid sheriff in one of my favorite westerns, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. jecorbett, The "Thwap your magic Twanger, Froggy" quote is from a Saturday morning show called Andy's Gang. The star of the show was of course Andy Devive. Froggy was a frog puppet who was always causing trouble. The show had serial shows and skit type of short comedy sections with many different puppet or animal characters. The show ended in the early 60s, maybe even 1960. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy%27s_Gang will get you some more in-depth information. Sorry to have derailed the topic a bit, here!
jecorbett ACY I wonder how many Andy Devine fans know what you're talking about. Tom I'm old enough (63) to remember Andy Devine but I have to confess I don't remember those expressions. Mainly I remember him as Wild Bill Hickok's sidekick. Among other things he played a spinner of tall tales on a Twilight Zone episode and was the timid sheriff in one of my favorite westerns, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
ACY I wonder how many Andy Devine fans know what you're talking about. Tom
I wonder how many Andy Devine fans know what you're talking about.
I'm old enough (63) to remember Andy Devine but I have to confess I don't remember those expressions. Mainly I remember him as Wild Bill Hickok's sidekick. Among other things he played a spinner of tall tales on a Twilight Zone episode and was the timid sheriff in one of my favorite westerns, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
Don't apologize. I think for many of us, nostalgia plays a big part in our interest in model railroading. I do have vague memories of that puppet show of which a Wild Bill Hickock episode was a big part and I thought it was part of the Saturday morning lineup along with a Hanna-Barberra cartoon series called Ruff and Ready about a dog and cat pals. I'm pretty sure Ruff was the same voice they used for Huckleberry Hound. I was born in 1951 so I really only remember the last few years of the Wild Bill Hickok show. I think I have one vivid memory of the show that maybe you can confirm for me. Either at the beginning or the end they played a clip of Andy riding to catch up to Wild Bill and calling out, "Hey, Bill, wait for me". Is that an accurate recollection?
Good point, stix. That's certainly a viable approach, although those who do just enjoy watching the trains go round may differ.
And if the layout is still under construction and operation is your goal, a very good idea, because it helps sort out things that are working from those that aren't. In fact, I was reading where someone was quoting Byron (cuyama) on this the other day, "Operate early and often..." or words to that effect, in order to verify how the plan meets the needs of operators.
BTW, was going to mention this earlier, but Joe and jecorbett both offer good examples of taking what you like about operations with groups and distilling it down to what works for you, alone. There are no hard and fast rules here, just what leads to fun and excitement, rather than boredom.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
There are a number of video games out there that can be played as a single player or multiple players. It's still the same game. Seems to me it's the same for model railroading. I operate my layout by myself, but I'm still "operating" the layout. I make up trains, switch industries, etc. I get the same enjoyment from it as someone taking part in a large home or club layout's 'operating sessions' gets. Since I am building the layout to have what I want to have on it, everything on the layout is basically there for my satisfaction.
cmrproductsMost in this thread most are using the - I like doing scenery - building the layout etc as an excuse to Operate Solo. DO YOU think that those of us that that host OPs with more than ONE person - do NOT like the same things???
Bob,
I don't think anyone is saying anything like that.
I think after two posts, people do get the point that you can't really conceive of having fun operating on your own. But that's not really the topic here. It's how to manage to enjoy your layout operating alone. Maybe you do have something to contribute more along those lines? Otherwise, maybe you and a couple of the clearly anti-operations folks can have it out in another thread?
Beacuse I'm not sure finding points of conflict is as useful as sharing what we each value so that others can pick and choose what they enjoy. Ultimately, that's one of the strengths of operating alone -- and a challenge sometimes -- is how to do that and be entertained when there aren't others there to share the experience -- for whatever reason. Because if you're not having fun when operating alone, it's up to you to fix that. There's no one else to blame.
MisterBeasley My answer is simple: Scenery. I enjoy switching the new industry or crossing the new bridge. I can be happy enough just looping trains over the rivers and through the woods, too. I'm adding flashers at one grade crossing and gates at another as my current project. That will add nothing to the operation effort, as they will be totally automatic, but they will greatly enhance the operating experience. It will be 2 more smiles every time around the layout.
My answer is simple: Scenery. I enjoy switching the new industry or crossing the new bridge. I can be happy enough just looping trains over the rivers and through the woods, too.
I'm adding flashers at one grade crossing and gates at another as my current project. That will add nothing to the operation effort, as they will be totally automatic, but they will greatly enhance the operating experience. It will be 2 more smiles every time around the layout.
Most in this thread most are using the - I like doing scenery - building the layout etc as an excuse to Operate Solo.
DO YOU think that those of us that that host OPs with more than ONE person - do NOT like the same things???
We do - it is just that we also like to see our layout come to life with more than ME running it. After having sunk $$$$$ into building a layout - I think others would like to run YOUR layout to see how you built it - the layout of the Towns etc.Etc. Running a train around the layout lets others see all of your great work.
Hiding it in your Basement/Garage/Attic from everyone else wanting to admire your work - seems a bit that you are afraid to let others know you PLAY With TRAINS!
We like to see the layout run like a miniature Railroad using multiple Operators to get the JOB done.
Operations whether by ONE or MANY accomplishes the same thing - it is just that having a layout capable to handle 2 operators or 20 - just makes the layout seem more like a real railroad as one has to consider how to keep the mainline open for the Thru trains - Yet getting your work done!
It is a 3D game! - nothing more - nothing less!
Some try to make OPs out as WORK - IF you are making the session into work for you - then don't do that job!
So simple Yet - everyone is so busy making excuses thay miss what running trains is all about!
Having FUN!
HaroldAI have never had a desire to join a club - mainly because I don't want that level of commitment and I spend summers at the cottage. So, I am solo runner and for me, it's fine. It does get me working on the RR over the winter, I am not held to any kind of a schedule and can work on everything at my pace. Every now and then there will be one or two other people, but those times are few and far between.
Harold,
Just a guess on my part but if everyone who liked trains had plenty of money and a nice basement they owned, there would probably be fewer if any clubs. I mean, who wouldn't want to do things their way if they had a choice? Clubs, generally are for people who don't have their own space, or in some cases, don't have the skills to build their own RR. Moral of the story, count your blessings and have a little sympathy for those not so fortunate.
Back on topic: Lots of going points for solo operation. Layout design is a big part of it as NP2626 pointed out, John Armstrongs "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" is a good read - I wore out my copy. Treating running trains like a game based on the real thing helps to make things interesting when just railfanning gets boring.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Those who are interested in purposeful operation (solo or multi-person) would be well-advised to investigate the Operations Special Interest Group.
mlehman Often, though, the clock is turned off, so that's something that sticks out to me right there.
The same is true for many multi-person operating schemes built around a sequence timetable.
I operate with others and also on my own. As I wrote about in Ops Fun for One, I find that incorporating seasonality and shifts adds variety to solo operation.
Another thing that I enjoy is using small tabs of paper to represent the brakemen on the ground. This adds the challenge of trying to switch the job, not in the shortest amount of time or the fewest number of moves, but in a way that minimizes the amount of walking that would have been done by the crew members in coupling/uncoupling, throwing switch points, flagging, setting brakes, etc. I've operated with a number of professional railroaders who have shown me how real crews usually work to allow the crew to ride or stay in one place as much as possible.
This adds a lot of interest and challenge for me, both when operating solo and in multi-operator sessions when I can work without interfering with others, such as on an isolated branch job.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I have yet to know what makes solo operation enjoyable. After dismantling a sizeable layout at my friends house some years ago, we decided to create a modular layout to NMRA specs with the idea of inviting some other modelers to adopt one and build it to his concepts, very informal. My friend lost interest, but I put so much time into design and construction that I decided to finish the layout in that form. In hindsight I think that I should have recycled the materials into a smaller layout unit with solo operation in mind.
Like CTValley (south of me on I-95) I am an introvert at heart. There is a local club (literally across the street!) that I have made inquiries about, seen their show exhibits, and even attended one of their monthly meetings, and got a pretty cold shoulder. There were about fifteen to twenty guys at the meeting and not one approached the obviously new guy to chat. At the Amherst show I approached one of the members, told him my proximity to their operation...yawwn! was about all I got out of him. I resigned that this was not going to be a good match for me and dismissed the idea.
I enjoy my winter evenings working on the layout, any evening tackling whatever aspect I want to focus on that night. Still sometimes I wish I had someone like my old friend to bounce ideas off of, and maybe show off my latest accomplishment.
Although I have been building my current layout for almost 14 years, model railroading is a cold weather hobby for me replace by golf when the weather turns warmer. I rarely touch the layout during golf season. I just got the layout fully scenicked at the end of last year and finally began full fledged operations. I didn't have a desire to do that with the layout only partially scenicked. I did a few operating sessions using car cards/waybills and found it interesting. I operate from a script rather than a fast clock. Tasks are performed in a logical sequence without concern for the time taken. I discovered a few bugs in my operating scheme that need to be worked out. Most notably staging yards overflowing at certain times. I didn't make them big enough. This year I got a very late start getting back into model railroading because I was preparing my home for a reverse mortgage and the appraisal that is an intergral part of that processs. I just got back to working on the layout a few weeks ago and a lot of maintenance is needed before I can get back to full blown operations.
With the limited amount of operations I have done, I have found it very satisfying making up trains, moving them over the layout according to the schedule, switching cars, and breaking up trains at the end of their run. My layout is a time machine which takes me back to the 1950s when I was very young. I run first generation diesels which I remember as well as late steam which I don't have many memories of. Although my layout is fictional, the goal is to make it seem like it could have existed. I think I have largely achieved that.