Remember the definition of the difference between a recession and a depression? A recession is when your neighbor is out of work—a depression is when YOU are out of work.
Well, that's how I feel about my recent discovery that at least half of the headlight lamps on my roster of Athearn Genesis GP-7s & 9s have gone poof! I have read threads on several forums about modelers' distain about having to change out Athearn's flimsy, cheap lamps and I thought , "I'm sure glad mine are OK!"
So, last night I fired-up a group of four GP-7s that I hadn't run in a while and I punched F0 for the headlight and nothing happened. The other engines were MU-ed so the headlights were off.
Then it dawned on me that, sure enough, both bulbs were burned out. In reverse, only one of the twin sealed-beam headlights lit.
Taking inventory, roughly half of the lamps are non-functional. Doing the numbers in my head (including two NKP geeps with Mars lights—8 bulbs per loco!) I will be replacing forty-six individual lamps with LEDs!
I've already done a bunch of F-3s & F-7s that also required decoder installs. That I don't mind since I knew I was going to remove the shell anyway, but when you lay out over $200 for a sound equipped locomotive the last thing you expect is to have to open it up after what I estimate is about 10 actual hours of running time.
Of course, you have to toss out the stock McHenry couplers, also.
I'm posting this not so much as a rant (I did buy more Genesis engines even after I became aware of the lousy headlights) but more to just let off some steam.
There's another thread here about manufacturers finally listening to us. I'd love to speak to the person at Horizon Hobbies that insists on sticking with these cheezy lamps. I have twenty-year-old Proto 2000 engines that have literally hundreds of hours on them and the factory bulbs are just fine, granted they're much larger, but they still work!
I almost reserved a pair of E-L SDP-45s but with the three-strike rule, headlight, couplers, Tsunami sound, I'm keeping my credit card safely tucked away.
Sorry this got a little long-winded... gotta' go—I have work to do!
Athearn, are you listening??? Ed
gmpullmanAthearn, are you listening??? Ed
If not they should be..So far I have avoid buying any Genesis locomotives due to the headlight bulb issues and the other well documented QA/QC issues.
I would love to have a Genesis DCC/Sound equipped GP9 but,until the issues are resolved I shall pass since this would be a major investment for me..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My first and most used loco is a Genesis 2012 GP9, with 4 small bulbs. I grew to dislike the Tsunami horn enough to change to my first LokSound select plus different speakers. I found that one or more bulbs had burned out and changed the 4 to SMD 0603 LEDs, which simply glued (Elmers) into the recesses behind the lenses. Not much extra effort and with the LokSound, the LED brightness can be adjusted to your preference.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
gmpullman I'm posting this not so much as a rant (I did buy more Genesis engines even after I became aware of the lousy headlights) but more to just let off some steam.
So, your letting off some steam, over diesel units.... I thought only Alco's were honorary steamers!
Ok, couldn't resist....
Yeah, it is annoying, that we, the purchaser, have to change out flimsy bulbs when, (yes when, not if) they burn out. But, could be a whole lot worse than just light bulbs. Now, if only we could train some of our little PPL's to just go inside and change out those tiny bulbs for us, it would be a whole lot easier....
EDIT: corrected typo.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Rick, this is me letting off steam!
Paul, you got me thinking... as long as I'm going to crack the geeps open I may as well install Loksound Selects. I have tried every reverb and EQ setting to try to improve them and the horn still sounds like a bicycle horn with a weak battery!
Speaking of investment, Larry, After the new decoders, replacement LEDs and the initial cost of the engines I'll have over $350 each in them!
Thanks for the replys fellas...
I've read reports of people having the Athearn bulbs burn out in a matter of hours, and others reporting them still working years later. What I've found upon investigation is that those who experience short life with the Athearn bulbs are also running their DCC track voltage too high.
All it takes is an additional 1/2 volt from the factory board and that's more than enough to over-stress and burn out those factory 1.5 volt bulbs.
Guys who are maintaining between 13 and 14 volts on their rails are the ones who do not experience the short life of the bulbs that others do.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I just bought some 1.5mm fiber optic that fits in the headlight where the 1.5v bulb was. I have 4 of the Genesis F-3 with dark holes in front. I need to glue a short pc of the fiber to the LED and install. It also works for the 'running' lights but haven't tackled that task yet. I have some SMD' s but haven't tried them; just read about it on this thread. So many tasks, so little time!
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Bob
FWIW, I have used many SMD LEDs for replacing stock light bulbs and they are fairly easy to install. If yours came with leads attached installation will be a breeze.
I use epoxy to mount the LEDs. I managed to find some 90 second stuff which minimizes the time that you have to spend holding the LED in place.
One trick I discovered is to light the LED when you are installing it so you can see exactly where the light is going. If the LED isn't lined up properly it doesn't project much light through the lens.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Bob FWIW, I have used many SMD LEDs for replacing stock light bulbs and they are fairly easy to install. If yours came with leads attached installation will be a breeze. I use epoxy to mount the LEDs. I managed to find some 90 second stuff which minimizes the time that you have to spend holding the LED in place. One trick I discovered is to light the LED when you are installing it so you can see exactly where the light is going. If the LED isn't lined up properly it doesn't project much light through the lens. Dave
Dave,
Good points. I did notice that the original bulbs (which do have leads) are pressed into the hole in the light barrel/lens which makes it look like a real headlight; what I wanted to replicate with the fiber optic material. I will try one of the SMD's and see what it looks like; it would be a lot easier for sure.
Also, the headlight lens/barrel has a sticky adhesive on it which held the bulb in place and I assume it needs to be removed for any other adhesive to bond.
Hopefully the Genesis ones are nicer, but on my RTR RS3s, the bulbs actually protrude out past the headlight casting and look ugly. Before these go into service I will be replacing those light bulbs with lenses or pieces of fiber optic to make a proper lense at the front, with LEDs behind.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BRAKIE gmpullman Athearn, are you listening??? Ed If not they should be..So far I have avoid buying any Genesis locomotives due to the headlight bulb issues and the other well documented QA/QC issues. I would love to have a Genesis DCC/Sound equipped GP9 but,until the issues are resolved I shall pass since this would be a major investment for me..
gmpullman Athearn, are you listening??? Ed
Money is getting tight for me too, but I still find Genesis to be a good value despite the light issue. The loco's with the prototypical details have made it hard to pass up the GP40-2s, GP9s and Fs. I'd hate missing out on those over lights.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761The loco's with the prototypical details have made it hard to pass up the GP40-2s, GP9s and Fs. I'd hate missing out on those over lights.
Jim,Excellent point..I really would like a DCC/Sound equipped SCL GP9.
I'll have to agree with Mark on this one. Unfortunately incandesant bulbs will not last very long running with DCC....NO bulb will if run at constant voltage limit. On the other hand I have Athearn BB's from the 60's with original bulbs in them. LOL, but I'm a DC user.
Take Care!
Frank
Ed - I see no problem in a railfan "letting off a little steam" (pun intended).
And because of the flame war about "todays prices", i cant really say much so as to not upset Vinnie. However, your post, along with many, many others really do reflect on the sad disposition of todays model railroading.
I have made it clear in my opinions that the claimed quality, higher detail, plus all the peripheral additions such as sound, DCC, smoke, etc DO NOT rate the price we are asked to pay.
Your post makes the point, the three strike rule..... as in most all of us have to replace couplers, trucks (or wheels), lamps, decoders, handrails, lights, etc etc. And for those of us who have large fleets, well, this can be very disheartening. In some cases, not viable. Either way, its more money following bad money.
Im not trying to revive the price war topic, yet reflect on yet one more post where an esteemed modeller has come across the SAME problem that seems to be inherant in all of todays models....
"They arent worth it." (quality OR price). And this really is a shame. Because we all have grown up loving and respecting our manufacturers. If it wasnt for them in the first place, we wouldnt have ANY trains at all. Names like Athearn, Atlas, MDC, Walthers are the first words we learn in Model Railroading.
I wish i had an easy answer for you Ed, all I have come up with is I just dont buy todays trains. Im am pretty sure, if sales dropped off.... the makers would all the sudden.... pay attention to "us", the modellers again.
Is Athearn (or others) listening? I dont know. Maybe they dont need to, as in quality control, research and development, should be catching these problems. They arent. Makes we wonder if the companies have all but given up on us just to make the all mighty dollar.
Its pretty obvious, prices up, quality down or none existant.... and the modeller community isnt happy. Very opposite of the phrase "Model Railroading is Fun"!
I hope the added cost of the replacement work you have to do on your fleet isnt unbearable. And the time it takes to do so, doesnt take too much time away from operation. This should be the things the makers see.... less operation - more time in the pits fixing stuff that shouldnt be broken.
With posts like this one, i find it easy to avoid once favorite manufacturers which in the past i wouldnt have hesitated recommending, or buying from.
Good luck Ed.
Douglas
Try lightly flicking the bulb with tip of your fingernail. I read about this somewhere and it worked when the ditch light went out on my year old Genesis sd70 ace. hopefully it'll last.
You folks have sure brought up some good points to this discussion...
Bob & Dave— I have used some of the SMD assemblies sold by "Big" Al Mayo on his MonsterRailroad ebay store. He will put together a package of the 3mm fiber optic tube and warm white SMD for a fairly reasonable price.
I have the materials to make my own but haven't worked up the initiative to sit down and "get 'er done." When I'm installing a decoder I want to have the LEDs on hand and his offering was what I needed at the time.
Mark, I know there's a lot of discussion on DCC voltages and if a manufacturer is going to design a product to the NMRA standard that manufacturer should at least provide a warning on the package that imminent lamp failure will occur if track voltages above 11.99 are applied. Perhaps better voltage regulation can be obtained to the lamp? Before I switched to DCC I still had early failures of the Genesis lamps and I always operated DC voltages below 12 volts (I like slow moving freights.)
Larry, Douglas—Despite the known shortcomings of the Genesis engines, I have a pair of Pennsy GP-9Bs preordered. I did change the order from the Tsunami equipped to plain DC so I'll install my own Loksound Direct and replace the incandescent lamps at the same time. When you just gotta have one... well—ya' pays yer money and ya' takes yer choice.
Bolter, Yep! I've "welded" the filament of lamps by bumping them with voltage applied. It will buy you some time but failure will occur eventually.
Thanks again for all the replies... Ed
Mark R. I've read reports of people having the Athearn bulbs burn out in a matter of hours, and others reporting them still working years later. What I've found upon investigation is that those who experience short life with the Athearn bulbs are also running their DCC track voltage too high. All it takes is an additional 1/2 volt from the factory board and that's more than enough to over-stress and burn out those factory 1.5 volt bulbs. Guys who are maintaining between 13 and 14 volts on their rails are the ones who do not experience the short life of the bulbs that others do. Mark.
Alton Junction
zstripe I'll have to agree with Mark on this one. Unfortunately incandesant bulbs will not last very long running with DCC....NO bulb will if run at constant voltage limit. On the other hand I have Athearn BB's from the 60's with original bulbs in them. LOL, but I'm a DC user. Take Care! Frank
The problem with the Athearn incandescents is well known, and by now Athearn knows it too. Their incandescent bulbs are crappy. It's not the voltage, it's the filament.
I bought my first Athearn Genesis 11 years ago, and their incandescents bthat they are burned out within a matter of days. The guys at the LHS laughed and acknowledged that it was a well known problem. That was 11 years ago. I bought a pair of Athearn Genesis F-units last year. Same problem, 11 years later. So, when I bought another pair of Genesis locos this year, I also ordered SMD LEDs to replace the incandescents.
Rich
My thought about all of the Genesis line is to avoid them unless you absolutely have to have one of their models. The first SD70M's had warped trucks that left the track on both straight and curves and the first batch of F7's had so many problem with the trucks, I had to replace the wheelsets of most of the 20 units I had purchased on the first run many years ago. The gearsets were a little too large in diameter and bottomed out ont he intermediate gear. So much for the Quality Control checking out to see if they actually ran. The Steam had their wonderful MRC decoder that either ran away or burned up quickly and I had purchased some of those early on. I still have some of the originals Challengers, Big Boys and FEF series that cannot be run since they have the MRC decoders in them.
I like the looks and detail of the Genesis line, but unless you are willing to install LED's and replace the decoders with upgrades, just ignore the line for now. The Soundtrax is much better than the old line and I had SMT LED's installed in three of the SD70Ace models last year along with the fix on the speakers on the first run of the SD70Ace models. It seems like Quality Control is not one of their strong points.
I ended up giving some of those away with the warning they could be fixed if the person wanted to mess with them.
The headlights on one of my F7's burned out the second day on a test track only three feet long. I probably got to see the headlight on for about 10 to 20 feet overall. They were dual headlight so one remained on, but the second one burned out almost immediately.
CZ
Has anyone measured the voltage applied to the light bulbs with a DCC decoder installed and using typical 15V track voltage? I'll bet it's over 1.5V, at least with a plug in decoder, not a complete board replacement. The factory board has circuitry to limit voltage, but that has to work on DC as well, when you have a wide variety of voltages and most of the time is not spent with the full 12 volts running at full throttle. Ideal limiting for 12 volts means at lower voltage, the lights would be very dim. Unless they are driving them across a couple of diodes - most Proto 2000 locos work this way, the chain of diodes gives you directional lighting, constant lighting by reducing the voltage to tehmotor, and a fixed (for normal operational voltage ranges) voltage drop - teo diodes would drop 1.4V across them. If the Genesis lights are wired using diodes for the voltage control, the only reason for a short life span would be just low quality bulbs. If resistors are used, constant full throttle DC or the always full voltage of DCC is probably putting more than 1.5V to them, resulting in short life.
Randy,
I have three Atlas RS 4's with incandesants in them, over 20 yrs old and no problem's with them either. They have the factory board You describe. Athearn was not the only one to use incandesants in their engines.
zstripe Randy, I have three Atlas RS 4's with incandesants in them, over 20 yrs old and no problem's with them either. They have the factory board You describe. Athearn was not the only one to use incandesants in their engines. Take Care! Frank
Rich,
I wouldn't go so far to explicitly blame it on Athearn now a days. I have been buying a lot of Miniatronic's incandesant bulbs 14v and 12v for some new kit bash buildings, the twenty pack one's,(which are not cheap either) and have had aleast two bad one's in every batch. Very frustrating when they are all wired and soldered to brass rod in the ceiling and find You have one or two not working from the package. Now I test every one.....and still find a problem with some.
zstripe I have been buying a lot of Miniatronic's in candesant bulbs 14v and 12v for some new kit bash buildings, the twenty pack one's,(which are not cheap either) and have had aleast two bad one's in every batch.
I have been buying a lot of Miniatronic's in candesant bulbs 14v and 12v for some new kit bash buildings, the twenty pack one's,(which are not cheap either) and have had aleast two bad one's in every batch.
richhotrain zstripe I have been buying a lot of Miniatronic's in candesant bulbs 14v and 12v for some new kit bash buildings, the twenty pack one's,(which are not cheap either) and have had aleast two bad one's in every batch. Yikes, I have never had a bad one from Miniatronics and, yes, they are expensive. That surprises me. Rich
Yikes, I have never had a bad one from Miniatronics and, yes, they are expensive. That surprises me.
It also surprised the crap out of me too!. Been using them for year's. A couple running on 14v, looked like they were running on 6v from the looks of them.
The lights with brass lampshades are soldered to brass rod through the trusse's in these buildings, 18 of them in one building alone.
I have a bunch of those too, single bulb in the middle - but it's a 12-14 volt bulb. Also, since they have light pipes, the 'lense' part of the headlight looks like a lense, not a tubular onject poking out the end like my Athearn RS3s. Atlas long ago switched to LEDs - the issue is more one of "these are top of the line locos and have crappy light bulbs in them when other manufacturers have even put LEDs in their lower end lines" I ran some P2K Geeps witht he stock bulbs on DCC for years with no problem, but now when I decoder one, it gets LEDs.
It MIGHT be excusable on the RTR line, but the highly detailed Genesis series?
Also note that the function output voltage on a decoder is NOT the full track voltage. It's rectified through a full wave bridge, which is two diode drops, plus there is the switching transistor which adds another diode drop. On top of that add resistors to drop the voltage - however it's hard to match up when the current spec of the bulbs is not published - with Miniatronics you have the 15ma ones and the 30ma ones, and you can size resistors appropriately.
But still, give me LEDs any day, one less thing to have to repalce or repair later on. And no heat to melt any plastic parts - which is the primary reason for using the 1.5V bulbs in the first place, a 12-14V bulb will get quite warm, and it not suitable for direct contact with plastic.
No idea now where I read it, but I recall the factory Athearn bulbs are rated at 10ma, making them very sensitive to being easily over-driven.
That would make sense, especially since incandescent bulbs are not a linear resistence. Using series resistors to drop the voltage is extremely tricky, especially since they need low values for those bulbs. Add to that the typical common resistor tolerance of 10% - yeah, no wonder. I guess only 1% precision resistors should be used here.