Randy,
I agree completely.
Just to be clear, in my case, I have no need/interest in the rear helper, put them on/take them off thing, but I agree DCC is the way to do that - as I said, if you want those other features, you need DCC.
As for detection, I use inductive detectors, not in the power circuit, and I use a high frequency carrier signal for the detection of standing locos - but yes, the voltage on the rails all the time is one very slight advantage DCC has with detection - but it still does not really eliminate any wiring.
Sheldon
All fine and good to support DCC but if you already have "Old School" (i.e., "New School" is DCC for those that don't know), equipment, then converting to DCC is a costly and laborous task, and therefore not practical from that vantage point unless you have a lot of money to buy new equipment and conversion components and time to reconfigure your equipment and layout.
Big Boy Forever All fine and good to support DCC but if you already have "Old School" (i.e., "New School" is DCC for those that don't know), equipment, then converting to DCC is a costly and laborous task, and therefore not practical from that vantage point unless you have a lot of money to buy new equipment and conversion components and time to reconfigure your equipment and layout.
If cost is the over-riding factor for you, then spend your money the way you feel will best serve you! We can sit here and banter back and forth ad-infinitum and in the end nothing changes! People will either go DC or DCC and I don’t care one way; or, the other which they choose! If you go with the cost per locomotive unit, dividing the cost of the DCC system by the amount of locomotives and and adding in the cost of the decoder, their really isn't that much of a price difference.
Do the math!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Mark, I agree the cost of one decoder in one loco is not of much consequence, and people should spend their money in this hobby as they see fit.
As Briefly as possible, let me explain my view on the cost of DCC.
Cost wise, I look at my layout as a construction project. It is a fairly large layout and one would be foolish to start something like that without adequate resources, so one should have at least some rough idea of the total cost and be prepared for same.
I designed a layout with over 1000' of track, 150 turnouts, to store and run 30 staged trains, typical freight train is 35-40 cars powered by 3 unit diesels or double headed medium sized steam locos.
With switchers, self propelled commuter cars (RDC's) and a few back up locos, that requires a roster of 120 plus locos.
I'm a careful shopper, and my loco fleet, dollar cost average, cost only about $100 per loco - hold that thought.
High on my priority list for this layout is signaling, CTC, and wireless throttles. Not on my radar at all is onboard sound, helper service, ditch lights, smoking locos, station announcements, or throwing turnouts from a wireless throttle (I had the chance to try that out - hated it)
Just to keep this simple, I will conceed that my relay based signal and turnout controls are no less expensive than any of the DCC related computer based solutions. And that 8 wireless DCC throttles and infrastructure would be similar in cost to my 8 Aristo throttles and power supplies.
Since my DC advanced cab control system is fully intergrated into the signaling, CTC and turnout controls, there is little or no extra cost to use DC once I am building those systems.
So it all comes down to the cost of decoders - for 120 locos.
120 locos that on average only cost me $100 each. These locos are mostly Proto2000 diesels, Intermountain and Genesis diesels, and steam from Bachmann, Proto2000, Broadway, and a few others - most all purchased in the last 20 years.
Decent non sound decoders - lets call it $25.
120 locos x $100 = $12,000 - not chump change.
120 decoders x $25 = $3,000 - a 25% increase in that section of an already large budget - for features I don't really need or want.
And the truth is, the rest of my control system cost less than the similar DCC and DCC related solutions would have cost - especially at the time I was buying the materials for my system.
There is nothing about DCC that would give me reason to compromise any of my other goals. I would not settle for fewer locos, on give up on having signaling and CTC at this point.
I think my position is similar to many who have their own defined set of goals for their modeling.
Some people just go at model railroading without much of a plan, that's fine, and I will say plainly that for most who approach it that way, DCC is without question a good choice, actually the best choice, because it will go anywhere they end up.
Others know exactly what they like and don't like and have a clear plan - and they likely know pretty early if they need/want DCC or not.
One of my life mottos is this - I use to be well rounded, until I discovered what I really like.
I'm even more well-rounded than before - I like good food.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mark, I agree the cost of one decoder in one loco is not of much consequence, and people should spend their money in this hobby as they see fit. As Briefly as possible, let me explain my view on the cost of DCC... (SNIP!!) Sheldon
As Briefly as possible, let me explain my view on the cost of DCC... (SNIP!!)
What is it that you want all of us to take from your constant descriptions of your DC system? Do you want us to decide we must be DC, if we are one person operations as you have indicated at the DC side of this discussion: "Except for the desire for sound, I cannot understand what any lone operator running one train at a time would want about DCC??" Can we have DCC if we have two people operating? Three? What is the proper number of users for DCC to be considered a legitimate decision?
I will ask the question in a different way.
Suppose someone wants to enter the HO scale side of the hobby today. He wishes to build a large layout that he will generally operate as a lone wolf. He has yet to purchase a single HO scale locomotive. Under what circumstances should he go DC? Under what circumstances should he go DCC?
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich, I will answer your question! Simply put, He has the freedom to chose which ever system he wants!
richhotrain I will ask the question in a different way. Suppose someone wants to enter the HO scale side of the hobby today. He wishes to build a large layout that he will generally operate as a lone wolf. He has yet to purchase a single HO scale locomotive. Under what circumstances should he go DC? Under what circumstances should he go DCC? Rich
OK, I did not word that earlier comment very well. Mark often tells me I am too long winded, so in trying to be brief I missed my real point.
I should have said I don't understand why someone would spend the extra money for DCC to run only one train, unless they like sound.
Of course they are welcome to spend their money any way they like - but I would not - I generally prefer to not spend money on things that I do not see a benefit from.
I don't expect anyone to do what I do - although a fair number still do, or have in the past and are still using same.
Again I will point to the latest issue of Model Railroader and the article about the Elmhurst Club. Their system that allows both DC and DCC at the same time is almost exactly like my system functionally. They are using micro processors, I use relays, they us touch screens, I use lighted pushbuttons, but both systems do exactly the same thing and have the same features and capablities. They just happen to make one of their throttle positions DCC - I could do that too.
As a club they obviously had enough DC users to consider it important to accommodate them?
That despite all the "experts" on here who say "vertually everyone serious about model trains has gone DCC".
I think not.
Rich, I am answering this again in a seperate post, to make a seperate point.
It is obviously not my place to tell others what to do, just like I don't need advice from all those who just a few years ago told me I would "love DCC if I just tried it", especially since I already had considerable knowledge and experiance with DCC.
My point is this, people should choose what is best for them and their goals - they can't make informed choices without information - information about ALL the choices - DC, DCC, Direct Radio, DCS, or whatever.
As I said ealier -
But, you can't know what you like unless you know what the choices are. Just like you admitted that you really don't know much about Advanced Cab Control or similar DC systems.
- Douglas
ATLANTIC CENTRALAgain I will point to the latest issue of Model Railroader and the article about the Elmhurst Club. Their system that allows both DC and DCC at the same time is almost exactly like my system functionally. They are using micro processors, I use relays, they us touch screens, I use lighted pushbuttons, but both systems do exactly the same thing and have the same features and capablities. They just happen to make one of their throttle positions DCC - I could do that too.
From what I read that is a 100-plus member club. I don't know what the breakdown is between the members who like DC versus those that prefer DCC. However, it appears that a lot of money was spent keeping the minority faction happy.
My concern relative to systems as described in the article are statements that "the Crestron's system runs on proprietary software" and "the club uses its own proprietary circuitry". It is convenient that the person (and member) writing the article and apparently involved with the installation happens to also be an authorized dealer for Crestron Systems. But what happens if/when that individual moves on? When the inevitable problem occurs, I wonder how many of those 100-plus members have enough knowledge of the system to make a correction?
richhotrainHe wishes to build a large layout that he will generally operate as a lone wolf. He has yet to purchase a single HO scale locomotive. Under what circumstances should he go DC? Under what circumstances should he go DCC?
Rich,I would explain the advantage of DCC as well as the cost of the system,the number of decoders and if needed the power boosters I would not white wash the final cost of either DCC or the needed DC items.
The final decision would be his and his alone to make.
----------------------------------------------------------
Under what circumstances should he go DCC?
Should he asked I would say if he plans solo running more then one train at a time since its much easier then continually flipping toggle switches while running two trains--unless he has a double track main of course...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It appears that an opinion is that if you are one person and you operate one train at a time, it's a waste of your hard earned money to get into DCC. However, I like all the customization I can do to every locomotive to get it to operate the way I want it to operate, that is one thing I like about DCC. Another (of many oyther things I like about DCC is the possibility of running two trains at the sametime. I do this irregularly; but, still do it and the fact that I did it with my DC Block System more than 14 years ago, makes me wonder why more people don't take advantage of this aspect of DCC.
NP2626What features of DCC do you find valuable/important?
One of the most valuable features of DCC that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it positions you to easily add function/features to your layout that you didn't originally plan for but later become interested in.
This is why I think DCC is the best advice for someone starting out that asks for an opinion. The fact that they are asking is an indication that they probably haven't developed a complete idea of where they want to go with the layout. DCC is clearly the best choice for someone whose "druthers" might evolve over time.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again I will point to the latest issue of Model Railroader and the article about the Elmhurst Club. Their system that allows both DC and DCC at the same time is almost exactly like my system functionally. They are using micro processors, I use relays, they us touch screens, I use lighted pushbuttons, but both systems do exactly the same thing and have the same features and capablities. They just happen to make one of their throttle positions DCC - I could do that too. From what I read that is a 100-plus member club. I don't know what the breakdown is between the members who like DC versus those that prefer DCC. However, it appears that a lot of money was spent keeping the minority faction happy. My concern relative to systems as described in the article are statements that "the Crestron's system runs on proprietary software" and "the club uses its own proprietary circuitry". It is convenient that the person (and member) writing the article and apparently involved with the installation happens to also be an authorized dealer for Crestron Systems. But what happens if/when that individual moves on? When the inevitable problem occurs, I wonder how many of those 100-plus members have enough knowledge of the system to make a correction?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again I will point to the latest issue of Model Railroader and the article about the Elmhurst Club. Their system that allows both DC and DCC at the same time is almost exactly like my system functionally. They are using micro processors, I use relays, they us touch screens, I use lighted pushbuttons, but both systems do exactly the same thing and have the same features and capablities. They just happen to make one of their throttle positions DCC - I could do that too.
And I wonder which group is the minority?
As for the programing and such, stand alone PLC processors like that are realtively simple to learn and program - not much harder than making your way around your PC or smart phone - you just have to want to learn it.
[/quote user="ATLANTIC CENTRAL"]And exactly how do you know which gorup is the minority?[/quote]
Did you bother reading what I wrote?
What I said was:
"I don't know what the breakdown is between the members who like DC versus those that prefer DCC."
carl425 NP2626 What features of DCC do you find valuable/important? One of the most valuable features of DCC that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that it positions you to easily add function/features to your layout that you didn't originally plan for but later become interested in. This is why I think DCC is the best advice for someone starting out that asks for an opinion. The fact that they are asking is an indication that they probably haven't developed a complete idea of where they want to go with the layout. DCC is clearly the best choice for someone whose "druthers" might evolve over time.
NP2626 What features of DCC do you find valuable/important?
Agreed, that is pretty much what I said above just a few posts ago.
[quote user="maxman"]
[/quote]
Point taken, I was already correcting and completing my post.
NP2626 To an extent, we have gotten derailed here! The intent of this thread was answering the original question: “What features of DCC do you find valuable/important?” I’d like to remind everyone, there is a recent thread in this General Discussion Forum, dedicated to DC operations. I have posted a few comments there and attempted to keep my comments about my 14 year experience with DC there! That thread is entitled: Who Still Models Old School DC Block Operation? Would it be possible for all of us to get back to the original intent of these two different threads? If you want to espouse DC, go to the DC thread, if on the other hand you want to express your happiness with your DCC system, do it here!
One of the things that got this thread slighlty derailed is those who chose to define the features of DCC with less than acurate information about what could not be done, or what is not available with DC - incorrect information about DC or DCC does not serve anyones best interests.
And I agree, some of this would have been beter served in the other thread, just like some of that conversation would have been better over here.
NP2626 The intent of this thread was answering the original question: “What features of DCC do you find valuable/important?”
My layout will be 20 years old this month and exactly half of that time it has been under DCC control. I had looked into the initial cost of the system and the incidental costs of adding the decoders and at that time did not plan to make the "leap." I had used several DC power systems in the early years including the Aristo-Craft Engineer and the MRC Controlmaster 20 that offered "walkaround" control. I had 2 mainline cabs, 2 yard cabs, one branchline cab and one engine terminal cab. Some of the wiring became a little involved but not what I would call complicated, such as ready tracks that would be controlled by any one of five cabs (rotary switch to the rescue) but overall I was happy and could run (and operate) trains pretty realistically.
I already had a BLI GG1 and a NYC Hudson that I had purchased mainly for the looks but the idea of the sound was starting to grow on me.
One day everything changed when a friend who was moving offered me his Digitrax Super Chief and maybe a dozen or so decoders at a ridiculously reasonable cost. As soon as I got home I had that command station wired in (two wires) to my existing layout, just the two mainline cabs to start with, and the rest as they say—was history.
I had a pretty extensive roster of engines at the time, perhaps a hundred or so, and I looked at the decoder conversion the same way I budget for food (or beer) that I don't have to buy it all at once. I would do maybe four engines a month and after a while I discovered that these engines needed to be opened up for maintenance work anyway so it was a matter of only an extra half hour or a bit more for some of the trickier ones, to install a decoder. Heck, some of the B units only required 2 rail and 2 motor wires so it was pretty quick.
Anyway, that's MY story of how I adopted DCC and I have been loving it ever since!
Add the fascinating features of JMRI Decoder Pro, sound, and all of the benefits mentioned previously by others and for me it makes my total model railroading experience much more enjoyable (with a bit of frustration sprinkled in when things don't go the way I had hoped.)
So to finally get to one of my most valuable features [that I don't believe has been mentioned] is the fact that the rails are continuously powered and my passenger cars and caboose markers can be constantly lit.
I'm a fan of running lots of passenger equipment and the interior lighting is one of the "big pluses" for me. Nothing irritated me more than seeing the lights of the entire train slowly dim to black as the train was slowing to a stop. With DCC I can see the interior lights on standing equipment and when I glance at the line-up at Union Station and everything is lit up it just makes the scene come alive.
Have Fun! Ed
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
NP2626 It appears that an opinion is that if you are one person and you operate one train at a time, it's a waste of your hard earned money to get into DCC. However, I like all the customization I can do to every locomotive to get it to operate the way I want it to operate, that is one thing I like about DCC. Another (of many oyther things I like about DCC is the possibility of running two trains at the sametime. I do this irregularly; but, still do it and the fact that I did it with my DC Block System more than 14 years ago, makes me wonder why more people don't take advantage of this aspect of DCC.
If you are refering to me, I don't believe I mentioned anything about something being a waste of money.
I can verify without a shadow of a doubt that DCC and DC operate a one train layout with other locos on their own parking stub with equal effort and convenience. DCC assigns the track's current to a loco's DC motor by pressing little buttons on a throttle and DC assigns the track's current to the loco's DC motor by flipping a switch on the fascia.
How often you want to reassign the current to each loco combined with how much space you have to do it in is what makes it either easy, or hectic. For me, I reassign the current to a different loco about once every 30 minutes, and have about 35 feet to do it in.
Just like its been tough to improve upon the basic teardrop shape of an airplane wing since 1915...its pretty tough to make something easier than flipping two light switches every 30 minutes.
In stead of recommending DCC to a newcomer, I would talk about loco movement and space. If he/she wanted to "evolve" their layout by going from operating one train on a loop and stubs to operating multiple trains on a bigger loop, I would recommend DCC. If they wanted to "evolve" their layout by simply making their loop of track with stubs a lot longer, and their layout more linear, I would say there may not be any benefits or improvements with DCC.
Dougless, no I don't recall your making any such statements. However, Atlantic Central has and I was responding to his statement.
As breifly as I can: any person getting into this hobby should avail themselves of learning about all the different kinds of control systems there are and making an educated decision. Basically there are two, simple Direct Current (DC) and Digital Command Control (DCC). There are as many way's to set-up a DC system as there are people who have set them up, which may make DC somewhat confusing to understand. DCC, on the other hand is relativly easy to understand, although certainly there is more to.
Modeling 1900 short lines and narrrow gauge makes some DCC-only features such as helper service and sound less appealing than it is to somebody modeling larger locomotives and rolling stock. At home, for locomotive tuning and single-handed operations/switching, DC is simpler to understand and use.
Nevertheless, I belong to an HOn3 modular group. In the modular world, DCC is almost a must because of its replicated "building block" wiring and control structure. To make the most of DC, the layout should be of fixed design, and the wiring and control custom-fitted to this design. A true modular layout is seldom the same at any 2 given setups - and ours are always different. Also, many club members have primarily Blackstone locomotives which come standard with DCC and sound. Hence, DCC is the club standard.
I should note that DCC has its share of issues at large (and sometimes not so large) Free-mo setups. All too often, it takes a real DCC guru several hours of setup time to trouble-shoot DCC issues. The evidence is (and has been) there that DCC has problems scaling up beyond a certain layout/number of locomotives size. Large fixed layouts have the advantage of time to solve/resolve these issues that a modular setup does not. But the prospect of returning to DC for modular setups is even more frightening - primarily because "operations" would have to be far more controlled than the DCC see-and-avoid paradigm.
just my perspective
Fred W
a reluctant DCC convert
Thanks! I am the person you're describing (starting a layout and not sure where it's going to go) and this very useful to consider.
NP2626... what features of DCC do you find valuable/important?
Two words: Locomotive terminal.
Some of my fondest railfanning memories are of hanging out at the B&O's Riverside Shops near Locust Point in Baltimore. For that reason I've always wanted to have an operating model of a loco terminal. But I learned the hard way that trying to block-wire individual segments to park locos on the stretch of same track - and wire a toggle switch to each one of them - was both awkward and impractical.
With DCC, since I'm controlling the trains and not the tracks they are sitting on, there is no limit to the types of hostler operations I can do. In fact, for op sessions, one of the full-time "jobs" is to make/break consists and move locos into/out of the roundhouse, etc.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
Sort of like Digitrax's old motto: "Run your trains, not your track"! This motto did a lot towards suggesting to me that DCC was a better mouse-trap!