NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Mark,
I would really like to hear your answer to the question?
Sheldon
How many times do I have to answer the question, Sheldon?
less wiring, fewer wiring headaches and easier operation, even on a small layout, allowing more time spent on other things
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I use DCC so that I can run, park, and run again any locomotives that are on my layout anywhere, for any length of time or distance, including running multiple trains at one time, without having to stop to flip switches or swap blocks or worry about running into another trains block. I use DCC to not have to deal with thinking about DC blocks. Constantly keeping track of blocks is not fun to me.
Basically, I use DCC because I am lazy.
Hobbez - Amen to that!
For my new N scale layout, I bought a DCC starter set and even with the little oval of track set up temporarily on the remains of a HCD, I am happy I went that way. The two locos I own so far are much better performers with DCC. One I bought without a decoder and I test ran it in DC mode. Performance (slow speed, acceleration, deceleration) were Ok, but not thrilling. Once "chipped" the loco turned into a gem. It required a little fiddling with the CV´s but that was easy with the system I use.
The layout I will be building (hopefully soon) won´t be a big one - something like 7´ by 2´. Wiring will be reduced to 4 sets of feeder wires to be connected to the command station - that´s all.
Chipping a loco is a plug n´ play business. Take of the shell, take out the jumper plug, plug in the decoder. Done in less than 5 minutes. A good decoder can be had for less than $ 25 and a command station is not much more than a decent DC power pack.
For someone starting all over, considering DCC right from the beginning is certainly not a bad move. For the old hand with a large layout (anything bigger than a 4 by 8 ) and umpteen locos, changing over to DCC may not always be the right move.
I switched to DCC about 5 years ago for several reasons but mainly because it is less of a headache wiring for a large layout and I have at least 30 locos on my layout all the time. I can select any loco(s) I want and immediately run them in any direction and at any speed. I have also migrated to a lot of sound equipped locos and again I can run locos and select the sound I want from each one with just a push of a button. I also upgraded to wireless (Digitrax D402D) and just love it.
I use to have DC with multiple blocks and switches on a small (5x9) layout and can't imagine trying to do that now with my 18 x 22 layout and 32 turnouts. Just makes sense to me.
Just my opinion. Done it both ways and now I know what suits me best.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Sir MadogHobbez - Amen to that!
I'll second that amen.
In addition to Hobbez's reasons, I chose DCC because...
I like to run multiple unit consists that I can assemble as part of the operation.
I like being able to add and remove helpers on the fly.
I like being able to let a run through run on autopilot while I operate the local.
I like being able to control turnouts from the throttle.
I like having a clean, control panel free, fascia.
I don't have room (or crew) for a dispatcher.
I like having multiple reliable sources for products and assistance with things like detection, signaling and computer interface.
I prefer to bet the future operability of my layout on widely accepted standards rather than RYO solutions.
The one quote from an advertizement that hits the mark for me is "Run your trains, not your track".
and lastly, it's my railroad, so I get to choose and I think DCC is cool.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
My previous layouts were DC, prior to the invention of DCC. After a cross country move, Ohio to western Colorado, I realized the new "dream" layout wasn't going to happen. I decided to build an "L" shaped switching layout with an interchange and felt that I would give DCC a try. I added decoders to several Kato and P2K locos and enjoyed the new system. Then I discovered sound! I'll never go back.
I started with a relatively small 5x12 layout this time around. I wanted to try DCC, as it seemed to be "the new thing" and gave me an opportunity to have walkaround throttles without having to deal with lots of extra wiring. I quickly discovered all the other advantages. For a smaller layout, creating proper blocks for multi-train DC operation is impractical. There is much to be said for auto-reversers, too. When sound came along, I sometimes found myself putting a train into a loop just so that I could blow the whistle at grade crossings. Now that I'm putting together Phase 3 of the layout, I'm getting used to stationary decoders, again to reduce wiring.
Being able to MU and speed match locomotives is a great feature, especially the ability to build up and break down consists anywhere on the layout. My layout is flat, but if I had a "mountain division," I'm sure I'd find it fun to add helper engines to get trains over the hump.
When I started building this layout, I was in my late 50s. I was building my layout in a professional, workman-like manner, seeking advice and planning every step. I was enjoying my time, but there was something missing. When I bought my DCC system and a decoder and installed it in my first subway train, I powered it up and found that I was once again 8 years old. It took DCC to do that, for some reason, but now I shed decades every time I pick up a throttle.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The ONLY advantage (from the viewpoint of the LION's cage) is the ease of wiring.
It is MORE difficult to run trains with DCC if for not other reason that DCC *does* more.
Since I run more than one train at a time (and on the same track) switching between them with DCC on the fly is complicated, as you would have to program in the engine that you want to control, and then switch to another consist, and then switch back again.
Even for on-person operation with only one train running at a time, you still have to do something to select the train you want to move, and THEN you have all the additional options such as sound, bells, whistles, compressors, and brakes. (Do they even *have* a sound for a grade crossing collission?)
Fine for a guy who wants to run one train, but LION runs a whole railroad and has zero operators to help him. DCC is of no help to this LION. A LION BTW who enjoys wiring the layout of him, as him darn well had better...
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
slamminThen I discovered sound! I'll never go back.
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up sound. That is a big enhancment to running a layout.
At Boothbay Railway Village, we have a double track main line that is a loop for continuous running. One volunteer can easily run 2 trains in each direction and still interact with museum guests. The main thing is to adjust the speed of both trains on the same track so one will not catch up with the other; try doing that on a DC block system!! ALso, a second volunteer could do some switching and run around moves with an additional locomotive just to add to the fun.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
G PaineI was wondering when someone was going to bring up sound. That is a big enhancment to running a layout.
Sound? Me thinks that the LION has the sounds of the subways down just about right without and sound devices...
I pretty much said what I was going to say in the other thread. And I don't think this is really a "which is better" question so much as "what works better for you" one. Because saying one is the "winner" or better implies that the other is a loser and I just don't think of the DC vs DCC debate like that. Instead, it's about figuring out your preferences, then pursuing them. In other words, the choice is a lot more like choosing which prototype (no really set answer there, as I sure we'll mostly agree) to model than whether Amtrak is ordering new steam engines (which they are clearly not.)
But it's also the case that many people who are into DC are because there really wasn't any other practical or affordable choice. And why change now? Completely understandable, but not really a choice about DC being better, just that it was the only choice.
People who are into DCC always had the choice of it or DC. They obviously had to consider both. No need to be smug about that choice, it just works better for their purposes.
And there are a few don't like DCC and are more comforable with DC. That's OK, too, because it works for you. But those in this group are a far smaller percentage year by year now that DCC is all but standard in the hobby for many people.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
For me its not the multi train operation its the speed steps,voltage settings,braking and momentum that DCC offers..
I find switching cars with these CVs adjusted for the best locomotive performance gives me a lot more prototypical switching since I must learn to "operate" my engine much like a real engineer.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
When I decided to build a bigger layout I switched to DCC for one major reason:
SIMPLICITY.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
mlehman Instead, it's about figuring out your preferences, then pursuing them. In other words, the choice is a lot more like choosing which prototype (no really set answer there, as I sure we'll mostly agree) to model than whether Amtrak is ordering new steam engines (which they are clearly not.)
Instead, it's about figuring out your preferences, then pursuing them. In other words, the choice is a lot more like choosing which prototype (no really set answer there, as I sure we'll mostly agree) to model than whether Amtrak is ordering new steam engines (which they are clearly not.)
Mike, your posts here and in other threads acknowledge what I think is the heart of the matter. It seems that most who respond favorably to DCC compare it to DC block control. Personally, I've been in the hobby for 40 years and have never desired a layout that would require DC block control..ever....so, IMO layout preferences are the ONLY reason why someone makes the choice.
Once someone decides they want a layout that might require DC block control, then the other factors like cost, hassle of programming, hassle of toggle flipping, acquiring knowledge they don't really apply outside of the hobby, etc...becomes part of their analysis. For me, none of that stuff matters because I like simple lone wolf ops.
On a related point, the same problem crops up for me when I read locomotive reviews or comments on a forum about how well a loco performs. One of the first things mentioned often is "how much can it pull", and locos that can't pull much are often described as inferior. Well, my longest train is 10 cars long. Pulling power is irrelevant. My preferences eliminate the need to look at that aspect of locomotive "quality", because I think that 25 car long trains look out of place on my layout. I don't need what that loco offers.
Personal preferences can eliminate many aspects of the hobby for a person, whereas they may seem essential to someone else.
- Douglas
DoughlessIt seems that most who respond favorably to DCC compare it to DC block control.
I have a different opinion. I believe most (not all) who reply on either side of the issue answer in terms of DCC vs not-DCC. My reading of the parallel thread on DC looks the same. Most of the "still running DC" replies are in terms of why not DCC. ("I'm using DCC because it does this" or "I'm running DC because I'm not interested in doing that")
I don't mean to imply that only one position is correct, but I do think it goes to show the pervasiveness of DCC in the hobby.
carl425 Doughless It seems that most who respond favorably to DCC compare it to DC block control. I have a different opinion. I believe most (not all) who reply on either side of the issue answer in terms of DCC vs not-DCC. My reading of the parallel thread on DC looks the same. Most of the "still running DC" replies are in terms of why not DCC. ("I'm using DCC because it does this" or "I'm running DC because I'm not interested in doing that") I don't mean to imply that only one position is correct, but I do think it goes to show the pervasiveness of DCC in the hobby.
Doughless It seems that most who respond favorably to DCC compare it to DC block control.
Let me rewrite the sentence you quoted.
"I think the DCC DC discussions over the years are heavily weighted towards comparing DCC usage with layouts that would otherwise have DC block control."
That has always been my frustration with the discussions....that BOTH sides first make the assumption that those types of layouts dominate the hobby. (I'm not sure they do, not that I care). So, the historical debate on this forum over DCC or DC always seems to take place in "part of the MRR world" that I never step into.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
BRAKIEI find switching cars with these CVs adjusted for the best locomotive performance gives me a lot more prototypical switching
Larry,
Gotta agree with you on this, in fact, it was written in much lengthier terms as one of my points in my reply in the other thread, but I think your summation really gets to the point better.
Now, you can do this via hardware solutions, but it's hardware, you have to tera apart and redo if you don't like the results. With DCC, it's a matter of a few button pushes and you're back to where you started and can try something else. This is particularly useful for wringing the best peformance out as there are often several different parameters that interact to get the loco operating as it pleases you. With hardware, it either fits or it doesn't -- and it likely cost you something unless you made it yourself.
Take as many CVs as you like -- they're free after all
In keeping with the original question what I like best is the ability to customise my engines. Change lighting configurations, tweak the sounds and adjust momentum. Some would say that creates more prototypical operation but for me the adjustments are made to get sound, lights and movement that feel good to me. second would be the speed matching capabilities.
Marty C
I really like how my Digitrax system works and have been happy with my decision to go DCC.
NP2626 So what features of DCC do you find valuable/important?
The microchip. I'm fascinated by anything that can act upon intructions fed at millions of instructions per second. On a good day I'm good for about 1 per 1/4 hour
It adds complexity to the hobby. When I get bored of running trains back and forth (yeah, right), I can spend hours setting and adjusting things.
The possibility of connecting my computer to the layout. Don't know how to do this yet but I'm sure I'll need my wallet.
Convenience. Very flexible as Mike Lehman mentioned. Very customizable. On the cheap(er).
I had a DC layout when I was around 10 or 12 and I distinctly remember smelling ozone. DCC doen't have ozone?
T e d
Not trying to stir up the debate, but as someone getting back into the hobby I have been reading both the DC threads and DCC threads with interest.
I haven't had a layouut in a while and still have my DC power pack I have been looking at the various DCC systems (digitrax, railpro, MCE, etc.).
One thing that would be of importance to me would be ease of installing decoders and also ease of installing decoders into older locos.
I have to agree with others this needs to be simple as it will be only mean running my trains when I get the track down
Installing decoders is a bit of a learning curve, especially with older locos. But it's really a process that you learn more of the details about as you go along. So long as you're willing to be patient enough to get answers, it's largely smoke-free; most decoder mfgs have a goof-proof gaurantee, so that if you do toast one that's new, they'll replace it free or at nominal cost; check your papwerwork and keep those receipts.
One big advantage now is that DCC is a mature technology. You can get decoders that make it easy to fit just about anything. Samller does tend to cost more, but it's a rare non-sound decoder that costs over $30 and they can be had cheaper yet still completely workable. You pay extra for extra function outputs or higher amp capacity in addition to size.
LEDs can seem a bit mysterious at first, but they work so well most people go with them for an easy install and never needing to worry about taking things apart just to fix a bulb. It's highly recommended to get a working knowledge of them, even if like some do you prefer the looks of bulbs in action.. The size of surface mount device (SMD) LEDs allows them to fit where bulbs couldn't go in the smaller scales, so you'll likely find a use for LEDs eventually. You'll also need resistors to protect the LEDs against burning out from too much current. I usually start around 1,000 ohms and go up. You can't hurt the LED by too much resistance, but you'll definitely fry it with too little. More resistance helps the old time look, because they were just dimmer back then.
Get some decent supplies. First, a roll of Kapton tape, as it's thin and won't make a sticky mess of things inside a warm loco as you use it to hold things in place.
Get some very fine wire, around 30 gauge and preferably super flexy. You can buy it, but you can also salvage it from old mouse cords. Cut those "tails" off and save them or check out your local resale shop to see if they have a bin of them to choose from. You'll get 4 different colors for cheaper than you can buy it factory fresh.
Tiny shrink tubing (3/64" or thereabouts) and liquid electrical tape both have their uses. Plus black liquid tape can be used for sealing light leaks from inside the shell.
Non-soldered connections can be done, but just aren't as good or robust as soldered one. A decent soldering station can be had for under $100.
Then gather your info. The loco manual comes in handy for getting things apart and idenifying wires and connections. The decoder mfg will also have documentation. This all can be found online in most cases. More specifically, you can also find a number of sites that show how installs have been made in various locos. And there are forums devoted to the different DCC systems and other aspects of this large niche of the hobby. Keep in mind that the internet is not always right. If you're unsure, consult more sources, they truth will out eventually.
Then go to it, do your install, trying to be as neat as possible. Leave enough length on the leads of the decoder to get everything apart, while makiing sure they're no longer than necessary. It all has to fit inside.
One thing to do faithfully. Whenever the shell comes off for work, take the loco back to the programming track with programming enabled before setting the loco on the track at full power again. It will tell you if there's a short. Find it and fix it, then return to the programming track before back to full power. Do this with out fail and your chance of frying decoders get to near 0%.
If you like to fiddle with computers, then consider getting JMRI DecoderPro set up. It lets you read, store, and program your DCC locos, keeping all those CV settings in its memory. And it make it much easier to adjust many of the CVs than the typical command station interface. I'm working on that right now myself.
1) Serial packet technology.2) Greatly simplified wiring.
3) Price! Tried to find rotary switches that will carry 2 or 3 amps each lately?
Bachmann engines with DCC onboard are readily available for under $100.
Also... I know a number of modelers who have switched from straight DC to DCC, but I know of noone who switched from DCC back to DC.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
gzygadlo One thing that would be of importance to me would be ease of installing decoders and also ease of installing decoders into older locos. I have to agree with others this needs to be simple as it will be only mean running my trains when I get the track down
As far as simplicity is concerned, in my opinion, the layout wiring for DCC is far simpler to understand, as there are basically two wires that come from your DCC system that go to the track and that is essentually, all there is to it.
Depending upon how long you have been away from the hobby, it's possible that some of your locos will have circuit boards that you pull out and replace with a decoder. If not, it is a little more indepth than that; but, thousands of people have added decoders to there older DC locomotives, so it really is pretty easy to do. (Go to digitrax.com and click on "Support" on the bar across the top, then click on Video Tutorials to see how decoders are installed; or, any other video you would care to watch.
When I entered the HO scale side of the hobby 11 eleven years ago after being away from model railroading for 45 years, I started out with a simple oval in DC, no blocks, no hand held throttle, just a single power pack and a bunch of sectional track.
I had never heard of DCC, and as far as I was concerned, I just planned to run a single train. Then, I decided to run a second train, so I set up a second "mainline". After all, I thought, I cannot run two trains on one track. Just like my old American Flyer trains of my youth. Say what? Block control? Two cabs? Not for me. Wiring, toggles, walkaround, ugh.
Then, my LHS guy told me about DCC. Running multiple trains, at different speeds, on the same track. Just like the prototype. And, sound, to boot. That was all that I needed to hear. I quickly converted to DCC and never looked back.
On the other hand, my late brother-in-law was a DC guy for over 30 years. He saw no need to go DCC, and neither did I. He was happy with DC, and he had an extensive collection of DC locos and electrical power equipment. His layout was exceptional.
In my view, DC users and DCC users can co-exist quite nicely. If none of these threads, touting one system over the other, ever were started, that would be fine with me. I don't see any reason for the user of one system to convert to the other unless he simply chooses to.
Rich
Alton Junction