This.
And this may be a bigger category of "not made the jump" users than people realize. On a small layout, where 99% of the time you only run one engine at a time, you can pretty much manage the control of the trains just using the power routing capabilities of the turnouts. You don't even need additional cut-in blocks or block control switches. One throttle, with speed and direction, is all you need. So... no block wiring, no selector switches, no decoders, no booster. Nada.
It's mighty hard to be as simple and bullet-proof as that.
And this doesn't mean you can't have operations. If you are the only operator, you can switch and work to your heart's content. As you pull into sidings or across cross-overs, the turnouts will route the power correctly as you throw them.
This is the camp I'm in. I am a computer software engineer by trade. I have built all my own electronics. I've etched circuit cards and I am not afraid of any of this stuff. Honest. But what would it buy me? Nothing. The vast majority of the time, I am a roundy rounder. I pull trains out from a siding, maybe cut off cars here and there, and set off onto the main. DCC would do very little for me.
After moving into my retirement home, I got back into model railroading after about a 15 year hiatus. I decided to go DCC from the start and the plan was to convert all the old locos to DCC. Then sound locos came onto the market and the high end locos looked so much better than my old Athearn BB diesels and Rivarossi steamers that I ended up using all new stuff. Besides, converting to code 83 rail made a lot of those old Rivarossi steamers with pizza cutter flanges obsolete. The will run on code 83 but sound like their are running across a washboard. I now have a decent fleet of old DC equipment for sale. My LHS has a couple shelves for second hand equipment and I'm going to see what I might get for them. The other option is e-bay.
I began modeling in the 1960's as a teenager and picked it up again five years ago. I read about DCC and observed it in operation at train shows and open houses. The technology is clever and the effect entertaining. For those who want the extra expense and enjoy it, go for it.
However, I wanted the most railroad for the bucks I had to spend so I decided to stick with DC block control. One of the features of DC not often mentioned is what us kids used called our imagination. In our age of dramatic special effects, everything bigger and better, and instant gratification our imagination is often thrown to the side. It may sound strange to our younger participants but I can still run my trains and "hear" all the sounds of train operation without any of the expense and technical glitches to deal with.
Continuing to take this thread farther from its' intended subject, at least here in Minnesota, I remember hearing and even using "Old School" long before even the Beatles! So, the phrase's beginning has nothing to do with Rap; or, Hip-Hop music.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
V8Vega That phrase "Old School" never made any sense to me. Where did that come from?
That phrase "Old School" never made any sense to me.
Where did that come from?
"Old School [of Thought]"
It seems to have entered popular culture and vernacular of the last few decades from hip-hop, referring to the early rap and hip-hop of the 70s.
NP2626The phrase gives the connotation of DC Block Control being out of date; or, obsolete.
I always considered the phrase "Old School" to mean "good old", "time tested" or "classic". Ever watch the Orange County Chopper's on TV? I usually like Sr's old school designs better than Jr's modern stuff.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I am a long time (1960's start) HO modeller and built my current layout for DC block control with two mainline cabs, plus two yards with separate cabs. I'm also a believer in insulating both rails at block ends, and using DPDT switches for cab selection (no common rail wiring). This made it easy to put a selector on one cab for DC or DCC cab control, since all rails and wiring is isolated. I only did this since I bought a locomotive with a dual mode decoder (long time Reading fan plus Broadway Limited T-1 equals "couldn't resist") I originally bought the DC Master which allows access to some sound features, but was disappointed with performance on standard DC, so I got an NCE Power Cab set. I'm impressed by the difference in control on DCC and like the direct access to the sound features.
Will I convert completely to DCC? No, I have many (over 50) older locomotives making that cost and technically prohibitive. Will I convert some? Yes, as time and money allows (plus feasability of conversion). Will I buy new locomotives with DCC? Probably.
I have reliable homemade (from a MR article in the 70's) DC controls that put out 4 Amps, which gives me good control of all the older locomotives, including Athearn, Bowser, Mantua, Tyco, etc., so I see no reason to get rid of the old since it works well.
carl425 Soo Line fan I am anti technology for the sake of technology. I like technology for it's own sake. Just as Sheldon enjoys building complex DC control systems, I like to experiment with new technology. For example, I'm installing block occupancy detection on my layout just to animate my JRMI control panel. I may add signals later (if I can find some CPL's) but I'm interested in the technology anyway. Side note, the primary reason I left the hobby in the early 90's is that I couldn't decide which command control system was going to survive. By the time the NMRA came up with a standard, I couldn't reclaim my space. Now the kids have moved out and I was able to allocate a spare room. MRR is a big tent.
Soo Line fan I am anti technology for the sake of technology.
I like technology for it's own sake. Just as Sheldon enjoys building complex DC control systems, I like to experiment with new technology. For example, I'm installing block occupancy detection on my layout just to animate my JRMI control panel. I may add signals later (if I can find some CPL's) but I'm interested in the technology anyway.
Side note, the primary reason I left the hobby in the early 90's is that I couldn't decide which command control system was going to survive. By the time the NMRA came up with a standard, I couldn't reclaim my space. Now the kids have moved out and I was able to allocate a spare room.
MRR is a big tent.
Agreed, MRR is a big tent, actually bigger and more diverse today than ever.
I'm in that other camp, I only want new tech when it benifits me.
My life examples:
I love my new car with computerized twin turbo fuel injection, heated seats, indash navigation, blue tooth hands free phone, electric power steering, paddle shifted six speed transmission, electronic traction control, roll stablity control, etc, etc.
I will not have a programable thermostat in my house, it is 4000 sq ft with 5 zones of hydronic heat (hot water) and two zones of cooling - conventional thermostats work just fine.
I still have flip phone, I've never taken picture with a phone, only sent about 3 text messages in my life.
My computer is a brand new HP ENVY, windows 8.1, with all the bells and whistles - but it just replaced a 13 year old XP machine.
I still prefer my land line phone when I'm at home.
My house has a home automation system to control exterior lighting on the whole property.
I still have and listen to vinyl records - they sound better - nearly 1700, mostly mint 33's, only played on top quality turntables - but I do have about 700 music CD's as well.
And I do enjoy building new things or rebuilding things with old tech - I guess that is also why I restore old houses for a living.
Sheldon
jalajoie Sheldon, one thing I don't quite understand when locos run well together on DC they also run well together on DCC, my own experience. Why is there a need to speed match them when using DCC?
Sheldon, one thing I don't quite understand when locos run well together on DC they also run well together on DCC, my own experience. Why is there a need to speed match them when using DCC?
You don't always have to speed match with DCC either, but this ablity is always sited by DCC users as one of its great features.
I have seen however two identical engines that would run fine together in DC, not run well together in DCC simply because they have different brands of decoders installed - and then the issue of sound and non sound locos......
Not an issue for me, I would be no sound even if I had DCC, but for others it is a big speed matching issue.
Soo Line fanI am anti technology for the sake of technology.
I'm still using DC. While I like the aspects of DCC, I have 90+ locomotives that I know I'll never get around to converting, especially my BB's. With a lot of people leaving the hobby or converting to DCC, there are lots of good inexpensive power packs to be had.
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
Jack W.
My main layout is DCC but I've started a 4x8 Christmas Village layout that will use some of my old DC equipment. It's going to have one hidden two track staging yard so that's two blocks plus a third block for the rest of the layout. I've got the track down and it is old fashioned code 100 sectional track. No brass rail. I didn't go that far back.
I am going to try to be brief on this subtopic of speed matching/consisting.
Having been running DC powered model trains since the late 1960's, I have seen lots of MU'd diesels with all units powered.
I have never had any trouble running two, three, four or more units of the same brand/design/manufacture together.
That said, a great many of the locos offered in the last 20 years are of similar or identical design even from brand to brand. Put a can motor in an Athearn Blue Box and you have a Proto2000 drive - more or less.
My Intermountian and Genesis F units run together fine.
I have a large fleet of Proto2000 diesels of the following types - GP9, GP7, BL2, FA1/FB1, FA2/FB2 - they all run together fine, and run with a number of other locos as well.
Steam - The following list of locos easily all double head with no problems:
Proto20000 2-8-8-2
Spectrum 2-6-6-2
Spectrum 4-8-2
Bachmann 2-8-4 (converted to 2-8-2)
Athearn 2-8-2
Broadway 2-8-2 (sound and decoder tenders removed, Bachmann tender and circuit board installed)
And many of these newer steam locos run at similar gearing/speeds as the diesels - yes I mix steam and diesel.
Now - important fact - I don't run MU or double headers just for looks - the trains are long enough, and heavy enough to require them. This does help them run well together at all speeds.
My engine terminal is designed with extra "kill zones" to even allow making up engine sets and storing multiple engines on one track.
I don't have many really old locos - when locos got dramaticly better in the 90's, I got rid of most of my old stuff and bought new - most all of my loco fleet is 20 years old or less.
Speed matching all these locos in DCC to this level of interchangeablity would require a massive investment in time - I did it in DC with a series of simple real world tests.
And, admittedly, I model the early 50's. Diesels were still often run in matched sets - and I have matched sets. And most of my steam I have two, three, or in some cases as many as 5-6 of the same loco - just like real railroads, they had "fleets" - so pairing up compatable sets is no problem - it is what they did in real life when they could.
davidmurray Sheldon: How you operate and what you have accomplished electrically/electonically is genius. I am green with envy at your abilities. Dave
Sheldon:
How you operate and what you have accomplished electrically/electonically is genius. I am green with envy at your abilities.
Dave
Dave,
Thank you for the kind words. I was trained right out of high school in electrical control design, long before computers existed to run things like assembly lines, factory machines, pumping stations, etc. All done with relays back then.
Later I installed and programed some of the first Programable Logic Controllers (early industrial computers) to run that kind of equipment.
My control system is really a collection of simple industrial control circuits, combined with the ideas that Ed Ravenscroft and Bruce Chubb applied to model trains back in the 1960's and early 1970's.
And then that is applied with the Aristo wireless throttles.
Genius? not really - the curcuits that make it work were running factory machines and railroad signal systems in 1920 - long before I came along. I just took the time to learn it and apply it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sheldon
Having operated my layout for fourteen years via DC Block Control, I’ve found clean track to be beneficial to both DC and DCC operation. I have never seen any erratic control on my DCC layout due to dirty track; however, all those years operating DC made me keenly aware of the need for clean track!
richhotrain davidmurray Sheldon: How you operate and what you have accomplished electrically/electonically is genius. I am green with envy at your abilities. Dave Sheldon, is that you??? Rich
Sheldon, is that you???
Rich
Makes you wonder?
Guys,Since DC is the subject I would like to mention another feature of MRC Tech 6.
In the DC mode you can use braking and momentum and consist two DC locomotives by using the voltage setting and momentum.
I consisted two BB GP38-2s and was surprise with the results.Of course remove them from the layout and they return to their normal DC running when placed on a (say) DC club layout.
And if you're wondering yes,this old man has way to much time on his hands.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Alton Junction
Good morning!
Unlike some of the posters on the various "DC vs. DCC" forum threads, I've had the pleasure of running both systems - DC for a good 40 plus years, and DCC for 7 years. IMO, that gives me some credentials to speak to both systems.
The "plus and minus" of both have been tossed around these forums for years now. And frankly, there is nothing I can add to them.
But I can say this....... DC operation kept this hobby alive for umpteen decades. Like DCC, one can make it as simple or as complicated as they want. For a newcomer to the hobby, there is a lot to be said for beginning their MR venture with DC operations.
I resent the label "old school" applied to DC (or most anything else for that matter). Those things called "old school" by some are what got us to where we are today, and they still work just fine.
One last thing....... Why in the world would any MR give a rat's patoote what operating system another MR chooses to go with? That just doesn't make any sense to me. It would be like me spouting..... "why aren't the rest of you MRs running ATSF prototypes of the '40s and '50s in HO with period correct rolling stock and vehicles?"
Yup, that is pretty narrow minded, as is the "if you don't run DCC, you are a big dummy" - to paraphrase more than a few comments I've read on this forum.
Come on guys (and gals), lets talk about some really important stuff............
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
NP2626 I would have thought they would offer the system in something better than the 27 MHz range. In the late 1960s, Radio Control manufactures all but stopped producing R/C system in 27 MHz and jumped up to 72-75 MHz. Now R/C is almost totally dominated by 2.4 GHz frequency hopping systems. Have you guys using these systems ever had any RF problems, "glitching", interference? Just my opinion; but, sending the signal through the rails is a better mousetrap! Is the newer stuff 2.4 GHz?
Is the newer stuff 2.4 GHz?
The new Revolution is 2.4 GHz, but I have never had a signal or range problem with my 27 MHz system. They did also use 72-75 MHz for a different version of the product I have.
Even with 5" "rubber duckies", I can run my layout, located in the second floor of my detached garage, from out in my driveway, 100' away.
In the 30' x 40' confines of the layout room, it is dead on reliable with 8 different channels going at once.
A club near York PA used them for years on a club layout that was about 250' x 75' - no problems. Remember you are not flying an airplane, you are walking/standing in a building and the receiver is stationary.
Sending the signal throught rails is subject to the electrical noise of the wheel moving on the rail. That is why dirty track can be more of a problem for DCC than simple DC.
Here is what I like most, five simple large buttons - FASTER, SLOWER, EAST, WEST, EMERGENCY STOP. The buttons are easily identified by feel, I never have to look at the throttle.
Not the best picture, but this shows the Aristo handheld I use, and the Aristo base station, mounted to the regulated power supply I use.
Doughless NP2626 Thank you Doughless, I'm firmly into DCC; however, with all the discussion about the Aristo systems, I figured it would be a good thing if they were still available. Your question got me poking around the 'net a bit and it looks like Aristo/Crest has updated the product. I'm not sure they still make the product that Sheldon uses, and I use a simpler version of Sheldon's throttle which I know they've discontinued. No problem however, if my Train Engineer breaks, I'll just flip the plug in my Atlas locos over to DCC and use my NCE wireless for the silent locos too and move right along...no worries.
NP2626 Thank you Doughless, I'm firmly into DCC; however, with all the discussion about the Aristo systems, I figured it would be a good thing if they were still available.
Thank you Doughless, I'm firmly into DCC; however, with all the discussion about the Aristo systems, I figured it would be a good thing if they were still available.
I use the older, but not oldest version of the Train Engineer. Mine are the 10 channel 27 MHz version with the on/off switch. I will look later and see if I have a photo to post.
The newest product, the Train Engineer Revolution will do everything the older models did, plus much more. They have both onboard receivers for large scale and trackside receivers for any scale.
They are also working to develope onboard receivers for HO - direct radio - imagine DCC with no baswe station, just a simple power supply putting 12 volts on the track all the time, and the control info travels through the air doirectly to the loco - not thorugh the rails.
In the whole history of the hobby, there have been a few other radio throttles, but Aristo is by far the most successful.
Before DCC was fully developed, the Train Engineer had a sizable HO and N scale following and I know a number of HO modelers still using them.
Aristo has closed their large scale train business, and is only in this business with throttles, under the Crest name, which is a brand name they have always used for their electronics products.
When I was developing my control system, I worked directly with one of their tech people via e-mail and with several other long time users of the Train Engineer Throttle.
Actually, I did not imbrace the Train Engineer throttle without extensive testing for my application. First I wanted to be comfortable with the push button control, which I now prefer in place of a turning knob.
I also tested it for slow speed operation, radio range with indoor friendly shorty antennas, detection system compatabilty, and more.
I'm very happy with my choice.
- Douglas
NP2626 Are the Aristo-Craft; or, Aristo whatever systems still available? I just did a search and could not find much on this manufacturer as far as a DC operation systems are concerned. They may still make rolling stock, possible in Large Scale. I did find Crest, is this the same company?