Yes, it all comes down to money if it is feasable. End of story.
Cheers!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
When is it feasible?
Good question and there are some real answers to look at.
1.The builder is dangerous with any power tool since he lacks the needed skills.There are those out there.
2.Those that lack carpentry skills to take on such a project..I fit into that group since I have enough skills to build a simple 4x8' or a switching layout.
3.The granddaddy..The modeler is handicap and can not do the needed work.One may be surprise how fast one's "friends" or family can find other demanding chores to do on a routine bases when asked to lend a helping hand..
If I were rich I would be more then happy to have my dream ISL professionally built because of my limited carpentry skills and limited use of my right hand..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hey, guys, we old-timers spent 50 years or more fighting the people who insisted on calling model railroading "playing with trains" like we were running Lionel, Marx, or American Flyer. I literally cringe every time I hear some guy on "Tracks Ahead" telling the uninitiated that he "likes playing with trains."!!! Even the old-timers--and there were a LOT of them--who started out in the '30s and '40s with Lionel, Ives, and American Flyer "O gauge" equipment didn't want to be branded with the "Playing with trains" image. They worked on their locos and rolling stock, built scenery (well, a lot of O-scalers and early HO-scalers either didn't get around to it or only had rudimentary scenery) were still working at "model railroading." Yes, play baseball, basketball, tennis, golf or cards, but no matter how much fun we have running trains, please don't tell people you're playing with trains. My 2 cents.
Deano
JAMES MOON I recently built bench work using pretty much a DeWalt compound miter saw, a DeWalt battery powered drill and both scrap and new lumber. Cut the tops with a 7-1/4 circular saw and a couple of curves with a Bosch saber saw from 1/2 inch CDX grade plywood (the cheap stuff but not as cheap as OSB). My bench work may not be the best but it will get the job done for me.
I recently built bench work using pretty much a DeWalt compound miter saw, a DeWalt battery powered drill and both scrap and new lumber. Cut the tops with a 7-1/4 circular saw and a couple of curves with a Bosch saber saw from 1/2 inch CDX grade plywood (the cheap stuff but not as cheap as OSB). My bench work may not be the best but it will get the job done for me.
The O.P. asked the question: “At what point is it feasible for a novice to build his own layout empire vs having it custom built?” I would postulate that it is always feasible for any novice to build his own layout empire. However, it is only feasible for a novice to have a layout empire built, if he/she can afford it!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I think the more important thing I have win whith the construction of my layout in Nscale is....satisfaction.
Ordering a layout to a custom layout builder have strictly no interest for me, it's not a critics, but it's like you order a car, you just have the satisfaction to have it, to drive it, but never able to say look what I have accomplish, what I am able to do.
I feel it's something we found in our sad modern world, just buy it and you have it; we are slowly formated to lose any interest to accomplish something by ourself, but in place buy it......ndlr, we see ready build structures to buy!
May be I'm from the old school, from an another time, a time which seems to me to dissappear, the time of a personnal satisfaction by myself.
Of course friend of mine have help to build my layout and I not include them in this speaking.
Building a layout is for me a three step accomplisment.
Of course I don't speak about money because it's too personnal.
First, of course you need a room where to build the layout and here comes the three step process,
First planning, lot of planning, take your time, plan the layout but also the accomodation in the layout room, like the ceiling, the valence, electricity, painting of the room, carpeting and everything which can interact whith the layout construction and his future maintenance. Not forget something can be a real challenge by itself.
Second is the construction of the layout in the finished room, small layout are more affordable than a big project; whith my 492 feet mainline in Nscale I have work for the coming 20 years for sure, so be sure you have the potential and the power to finish the project, I'm sure to have the flame but you never know what can happen, take consideration of that.
Third, you learn a lot, everyday in train modeling, you are a carpenter, and elctrician, a fellow electronician, an architect and a crazy dreamer!
And this is real for everything you accomplish by yourself, a feeling you could never approach by buying it!
We have two mainline step in our life, family and our work, but something really personnal to accomplish is rare, so if we have one, for instance for us here a layout, don't lose any chance to do it.
I suscribe to the school of continuous learning. Therefore am a big advocate of build as much as you can yourself for the adventure of learning and doing. If you don't have a lot of skills or tools, spend some money on tools. I recently built bench work using pretty much a DeWalt compound miter saw, a DeWalt battery powered drill and both scrap and new lumber. Cut the tops with a 7-1/4 circular saw and a couple of curves with a Bosch saber saw from 1/2 inch CDX grade plywood (the cheap stuff but not as cheap as OSB). My bench work may not be the best but it will get the job done for me.
Most importantly, have fun! Its your layout and you should do what makes you happy and satisfied in the end product.
The answer to the original question "
The answer is at the point you have a lot of money, and I mean A LOT. Even 20 years ago it cost in the range of $50K to $150K to have a decent layout custom built for you. At todays prices you are probably talking $100-200 grand for a custom layout.
Ninety five percent of us never even ask that question because the money simply isn't there. You probably have to be in the top 3% earning category in the US to afford a good sized custom layout. I knew a guy in Indiana who claimed to be in that category and he was building himself a large basement layout, but he was buying a lot of brass steam engines etc. and doing his layout the cheaper way, getting some help.
Yes, you will find most people in this forum will advocate DIY, and mainly because thats the only way most average schmucks can even come close to affording a layout is to build it ourselves. That said, if you have enough money to afford the very expensive costs of having a layout custom built, don't let the members of this forum intimidate you from doing what YOU want. Plenty of people in the hobby will try to make you feel you are doing something wrong if you aren't doing it their way.
IMO, the hobby is all about having fun, and if you buy your trains all ready to run out of the box and pay someone to build your layout for you; if thats fun for you then go for it!
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Well, my thoughts run along the lines of what has been stated here. It is the journey not the destination and that said I want to be a part of all of it.
The great thing about model railroading is that nothing is set in concrete. If you try something and it does'nt work out to well, you just tear it out and try something different until you get it to a point that you are satisfied with it. (note) It does make those changes a lot easier if you decide to do them before you ballast your track. That does not mean you can't make changes afterward, but it becomes more time consumming and somewhat more costly as you might lose some track and/or turnouts.
But for all of us here it has been a learning experience and we have all gained skills as we went along. Some of us have learned more than others and some of us are still on that journey. This week was the first time I have poured a water feature, which I was a little hesitant in doing. but it went well and that hesitancy for that aspect has vanished. I will do that again in a minute.
Procrastingating in getting started is the worst part. I dilly daddled for about three years trying to get the right track plan and could never really get satisfied. I did have a general idea, so I just dived in and started building now I have a 17' x 13' layout that is operational but only about 1/4 landscaped.
Keep in mind what the namesake of our Diner always said. .." there is no such word in my vocabulary as CAN'T". You just learn to do it.
Good luck,
Johnboy out...................
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
LION is a monk. Him lives in a monastery. LION does not need to file IRS return, because income of LION is $0.00. LION not going to get a professional to build anything. Zookeeper will not spring for such expenses.
LION must build of him self by himself with such materials as him can find. Still LION found a former class room above the Library that seemed to *want* a model railroad in it. So LION builded said railroad.
LION says him builds railroad on the CHEAP. No money, and actually, very little skill. LIONS are not all that skillfull what with big furry paws and claws where the fingers are supposed to be. LION can not see as well as he used to, and neuropathy in the feet makes ballance an issue, and neuropath in the fingers makes holding little things an issue as well. Still LION builds what he can, as he can and is happy with the results. This Layout has now been ten years in the making. Boy does time ever fly, it was not so long ago that the LION was 27, now last time him looked him is 67 and growing older. Him would like to "finish" this layout before time finishes the LION. Time will tell, and will win in the end.
Here are some secrets of LION The track in the foreground is mounted directly to a 2" thick piece of fiberglass roofing insulation recovered (with permission) from the dumpster at a job site. Notice how LION uses blocks of foam to support the trackway. These were cut down in the wood shop, each one 1/4" longer that the next, and spaced to that the incline was what I wanted.
Now above this is the 42nd Street station (facing the other way, of course), and it too is built on a 2" thick fiberglass piece, with similar fiberglass uprights supporting it. The pink foam is the back side of the backdrop for the Smith 9th Street Station just to the left of that bridge over the Gowanus Canal.
Turning the camera just 30 degrees to the north from the above picture wie find this:
Examine the construction and see if you do not agree with the LION that building big does not need to be as complicated as the editors at MR would have you think.
Bulletproof construction, no, functional, yes.
The outside edge of the table does not include the track that was added (on that black ledge) which was added after I expanded the layout.
The table material used here is 1/2" Celotex, a material no longer available, but of which we had 10 sheets salvaged from a building remodling job stored in the (former) gymnasium.What you are looking at is a pair of Looooong helixes that depart from a comon point on the other side of the table, The Smith-9th Street Station. One pair of tracks (the express tracks) travels down on that "1710" level and around again to the level below that to rejoin with the track on the black level aroung the curve behind me. The other pair of tracks (the Local tracks) travel up through the 8th street station, around to the 42nd street station, and then up to the Coney Island station on the top level here.
Note the lack of supports to the top level. It was built on a "mini-table" (see its cross supports?) and that table held in place by a set of four wooden legs connecting to the open frame work table on the black track level.
LION uses no roadbed or ballast, this is a subway layout, and this back view, not open to the public will still have stations that can be photographed and also viewed from the Rail-Fan Cam attached to the front of a train.
Here is the north end of this same table that we have been looking at.
In the foreground it the local track as it leaves the South Ferry station to the left. The middle two tracks that you see are the express tracks looping down. That train will pass trough the Lenox Street station to the right, and then come around agian on the lower level left to right into the Nevins Street sation.
Directly behind that pink view block, is the local train traveling left to right up to the 8th Street station. A train there would continue around to the 42nd Street station off picture to the ring, and across a track not seen here left to right to the Coney Island station on the upper level West. I call this place the "Gold Street Interlocking" and is is surely not as complicated as it looks, and is far far less complicated that the Gold Street plant in Brooklyn whcih also weaves throug several levels from the Manhattan Bridge to the deKalb Avenue Station.
We were looking at the west side of the west island, here is the rest of the layout (almost)
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I can see the wants of buying the build but few profesional builders are very could (note I did not say none!!!!!!!!!). Your best bet to move you along is to buy the bechwork from others (which can be expencive) and do the rest yourself. With the modern methods of track laying etc. it is not hard to get profesional results meaning foam and caulk.
One additional thought..........
If someone else builds it, who is going to maintain it? And make no mistake, maintaining a layout is directly proportional to its size and complexity. Frankly, if you can't build it, you likely will not be able to maintain it.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
It seems to me that if you lack the time, and/or lack the skills, and have the money to spare, then by all means pay someone else. I could also see someone paying a professional if the objective is to have a museum quality layout. Another good reason to pay someone else would be an instance where disabilities do not permit the model railroader to build his own layout.
My concern would be for someone that hires a professional simply because the modeler is afraid to tackle the job himself, perceiving that he lacks the skillls. To that modeler, I say, at least make an attempt to build a layout yourself. Start small, do the benchwork, do the wiring, do the landscaping, and see what you get.
Rich
Alton Junction
IRONROOSTER This is a hobby. Do the fun parts. Use RTR, pre-built, etc for the parts that aren't fun or where time is short. Hire out what you need to and can afford. Personally, I prefer to build everything myself. But I do use as much RTR as I can, because I'm short on time and want a large layout. When the layout is operational, I'll go back to kit building and scratchbuilding. Enjoy Paul
This is a hobby.
Do the fun parts.
Use RTR, pre-built, etc for the parts that aren't fun or where time is short.
Hire out what you need to and can afford.
Personally, I prefer to build everything myself. But I do use as much RTR as I can, because I'm short on time and want a large layout. When the layout is operational, I'll go back to kit building and scratchbuilding.
Enjoy
Paul
If I'd rather have someone build my layout for me, do I still have to use ready to run stuff, if that's the part I find fun?
Hi!
I've been playing with trains for way over 60 years. And that said, I've got a lot of opinions about the hobby. And that's all they are, my opinions:
- IMO, the biggest pleasure of MR is building a layout from concept to the operational level.
- IMO, having a decent layout built for you is a very expensive endeavor, but the end result will mean less than one you build yourself.
- IMO, if you are not a tinkerer, or have basic hands on skills (or the will to acquire those skills), you will not make it as an MR for very long.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
A few years back a high-rolling financial tycoon ended up getting a bill for $2.7 huge for the fancy layout he wanted built double-quick in the drawing room of his Hampton hovel. (Never did find out how the lawsuit settled...)
If I suddenly acquired a gold mine (or the profit from one) I might hire help - but I would still be the planner and general superintendent. Part of the reason is that I get a lot of satisfaction from doing things myself. A bigger part is that I'm working to a master plan that will celebrate its fiftieth birthday in September - so I want things done MY way, no deviation allowed.
A minor sub-thought. If you didn't build it, how do you fix it when some imperfection shows up? On the layout I'm building, I know every length of rail and wire by its name, rank and service number. When I had to dive into repairs on a club layout where I wasn't an original builder I spent more time tracing wires and drawing the schematics I needed than I did actually working.
Whether you do the building or pay someone else, make sure you have full documentation of EVERYTHING. Don't find yourself looking at a wire soldered to the center of another, all three ends leading off to oblivion, wondering just what the heck that is and what's it supposed to do.
I, too, love operation - TTTO to my prototype's timetable. I also enjoy the building that underlies it. Others have different priorities. I would not denigrate another's choices because they differ from mine. In the final analysis, do whatever results in the highest satisfaction for YOU. Don't worry about pleasing other people (except the one you're married to.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - my way)
Regg05:
I probably qualify as an older guy.
I built my first layout 35 years ago without help or advice. Trains even ran.When we moved that was forn down and joined a club, built two sections for the club portable layout, with advice and criticism. Also help building and rebuilding clubhouse layout.
A dozen years ago I built my present layout, with little help but lots of advice. The building was enjoyable, group operations is fun as well.
If I won a lottery I would have a house built, even if I did help build one in the past. I would have bench work built, because I've done that, the hiring help would be faster.
The rest I would do, because I enjoy it. Remember this is a hobby, how you do things is up to you.
Dave
Regg05 Happy Friday MRR I can't get this debate with a fellow enthuasist out of my head. A few days ago at my local model railroad club I was showing a friend of mine who is new to the hobby and club a few pictures of my layout that I'm starting. I admit I'm new to the idea of building it myself so I'm having someone help me which is causing the layout to be built painstakingly slow. However he asked the question why don't I hire someone to build the entire thing? Especially if someone lacks modeling skills, tools, space to build it in, etc. He had some valid points and at this point another older member joined in the conversation to which he replied "its not a layout if you don't put your own sweat blood and tears in it and furthermore you won't get the satisfaction out of it when finished". This debate continued back and forth for a few hours until I left the club. Friend still thinks it causes more headaches in the long run if you don't have any of the things mentioned above and even more so if you lack electrical and good math skills for calculating grade percents, radius curves, etc. So the discussion will continue this weekend when I see him. However with the price of having someone or a firm build a layout is it ever feasible? Just for experiement purposes I called a few firms and gave them the dimensions of my layout 8x12 and I was quoted anywhere from $15,000 all the way to a mind blowing $60,000. While I don't understand how these prices are calculated it seems to be a little steep even for a hobby such as ours. I will admit if I had the money I probably would have went the custom route Heck I would have just as much fun at the finished product and a lot less headaches at the waiting. Your thoughts? Regg
Happy Friday MRR
I can't get this debate with a fellow enthuasist out of my head. A few days ago at my local model railroad club I was showing a friend of mine who is new to the hobby and club a few pictures of my layout that I'm starting. I admit I'm new to the idea of building it myself so I'm having someone help me which is causing the layout to be built painstakingly slow. However he asked the question why don't I hire someone to build the entire thing? Especially if someone lacks modeling skills, tools, space to build it in, etc. He had some valid points and at this point another older member joined in the conversation to which he replied "its not a layout if you don't put your own sweat blood and tears in it and furthermore you won't get the satisfaction out of it when finished".
This debate continued back and forth for a few hours until I left the club. Friend still thinks it causes more headaches in the long run if you don't have any of the things mentioned above and even more so if you lack electrical and good math skills for calculating grade percents, radius curves, etc. So the discussion will continue this weekend when I see him. However with the price of having someone or a firm build a layout is it ever feasible? Just for experiement purposes I called a few firms and gave them the dimensions of my layout 8x12 and I was quoted anywhere from $15,000 all the way to a mind blowing $60,000. While I don't understand how these prices are calculated it seems to be a little steep even for a hobby such as ours. I will admit if I had the money I probably would have went the custom route Heck I would have just as much fun at the finished product and a lot less headaches at the waiting.
Your thoughts?
Regg
I guess if your interest in the hobby is having a model railroad to operate; or, simply own, you have the money to have it built for you and you have no interest in the process of building it; or the modeling processes involved, than go ahead and have it built for you. If like myself, you enjoy all the processes involved in building a model railroad, then build it yourself! There certainly also can be portions you hire done, while you do the others. It can be any proportion you hire; or, you build, it is totally up to you.
For me, the hobby is all about the enjoyment I get from doing it. I did all the study and all of the building it took to have what I have. I could not of afforded to hire it done and I would have had no pride in it, if I had. But, that is only me!
Regg05The older guy at the club whose from the ol skool train of thought felt that the reason why these custom model builders are so expensive is because the newer generation wants everything right now.
It's expensive because it's a lot of work. The hourly rates these guys charge is no higher than what you'd pay a plumber, electrician, finish carpenter... Skilled labor doesn't come cheap.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I didn't realize when I posted this piece that most opinions probably would be somewhat biased. But the last few responses have been encouraging. If I knew what I knew now and had the financial means to do so I would have had the benchwork, electrical, and tracklaying done for me and I would finish it off myself with scenery and structure building/placement.
The part that I enjoy the most is running trains and operations. Nothing like coming home and just being able to go to one's train room, relax and turn on the layout to watch trains run or adding that finishing scenic element that makes it one step closer to reality. When I said empire I didn't mean a big layout I just meant the layout room in general which included the layout.
The older guy at the club whose from the ol skool train of thought felt that the reason why these custom model builders are so expensive is because the newer generation wants everything right now. I don't see anything wrong with that. We live in a time now where everything competes for our time, work long days, gym, pets, etc. so time does matter.
Yeah, what they said. This isn't a "buyers' hobby." It's a "builders' hobby." To truly enjoy it, you must take an active role. Unless you are too physically challenged to actually build a layout, you can actually build a layout. You can get plaster and paint on your hands. It washes off. There is an inner child within you that really wants to play in the mud and get all dirty. Indulge him.
You're not alone. Drop by here and ask questions. We have most of the answers, and for the rest, well, at least we've got some suggestions and a few snide remarks.
Welcome aboard.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
I always consider that the layout is the hobby,and the trains are the actors that make it alive.
There is the journey and the destination. Sometimes the journey can be as much or more fun than the destination.
I think the responses on this forum are going to be a bit lop-sided as everyone here IS a modeller to some extent and has built their own layout.
However, there must be a lot of people who don't have the time or the talent to do so, else all these custom layout businesses would cease to exist.
The big question is what YOU want to do hands-on. If you enjoy building scenery, you could hire somebody to build the benchwork, lay the track and get it wired and running, then you can take over. These custom layout builders usually charge by the square foot based on stages of completion. The scenery stage is usually the most expensive per square foot as it requires the most time and cost of structures.
For that matter, you may even be able to talk one of the "experts" at your club to help you with the benchwork / track laying aspect or even hire them to do it FOR you.
Ultimately, it comes down to that time / money balance. Many of us would love to walk into the train room and have the basics all done for us, but financially, that isn't always possible.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ