Happy Friday MRR
I can't get this debate with a fellow enthuasist out of my head. A few days ago at my local model railroad club I was showing a friend of mine who is new to the hobby and club a few pictures of my layout that I'm starting. I admit I'm new to the idea of building it myself so I'm having someone help me which is causing the layout to be built painstakingly slow. However he asked the question why don't I hire someone to build the entire thing? Especially if someone lacks modeling skills, tools, space to build it in, etc. He had some valid points and at this point another older member joined in the conversation to which he replied "its not a layout if you don't put your own sweat blood and tears in it and furthermore you won't get the satisfaction out of it when finished".
This debate continued back and forth for a few hours until I left the club. Friend still thinks it causes more headaches in the long run if you don't have any of the things mentioned above and even more so if you lack electrical and good math skills for calculating grade percents, radius curves, etc. So the discussion will continue this weekend when I see him. However with the price of having someone or a firm build a layout is it ever feasible? Just for experiement purposes I called a few firms and gave them the dimensions of my layout 8x12 and I was quoted anywhere from $15,000 all the way to a mind blowing $60,000. While I don't understand how these prices are calculated it seems to be a little steep even for a hobby such as ours. I will admit if I had the money I probably would have went the custom route Heck I would have just as much fun at the finished product and a lot less headaches at the waiting.
Your thoughts?
Regg
In my opinion building youself is the only way. I have taken 3 winters to just prepare the room. I have had my wife and daughters help so it is family activity. Now that we are starting to build benchwork the excitement in our house has gained momemtum. I am so glad that I am not rich and have someone do it for me! The memories that we have made are worth far more than the finished product.
Just my 2 cents
I think you would have more satisifaction if you built it yourself. I'm just getting back in after a long time away and its my way of getting away from things even if its a hour here and an hour there.
No one says you need to complete it in a weekend.
I don't know where to start. I'll be short and to the point. IF you don't want to be a modeler, and feel the satisfaction of building in miniature, and creating, and all the learning that goes with it, then just go buy some RTR stuff that your club will allow, and run your train and spend your time there.
If some of the guys in here that have been here along time, and are still modeling and growing their empire, their miniature world, and proudly showing pictures of their efferts through the years, actually where paid by for the time and effert spent, they would all have $100,000.00 lay outs, easy.
What kind off pictures would you post? "Look guys what I had built for me! and I didn't have to do a thing!"
Mike.
My You Tube
Assuming that you actually have the disposable funds to hire it built, the question is: What makes the hobby attractive to YOU. I don't run my trains very much except when I am showing them off or playing with the grandchildren. I get MY enjoyment from designing and building it. The skills needed to build it are easily learned. The tools needed to build it are much cheaper than the cost of having it built. If you hate the building process and just want to run the trains then have it built.
What you are doing now is great. You have someone who knows what he is doing teaching you to do it. You will have those new skills with you for the rest of your life. Buy the required tools one at a time as the need arises. Don't be afraid to use a new skill yourself when your mentor is not there. If you don't know how to do something, then wait for him.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
In short... Right Now! Start today. If you wait 10 years, you still will be just a novice. Only way to learn is to do it. And it is a heck of a lot more fun to do it yourself!!!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Build it yourself. Start now. Have fun.
If you have it built and after a while you get tired of it, you can always sell it on ebay.
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Imagine having guests over to see the layout... Would you rather say "look what I built" or "look what I bought"?
For me, and I believe most, building the layout IS the hobby.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Starting with an "empire" -- if by that you mean a really really big layout -- can be a test of patience and stick-to-it-ivness, and yeah it might not be ideal to start with the full enchilada all at once. No law says you have to build it all to a finished state all at once.
I happen to enjoy the simple carpentry of building benchwork a great deal (sure makes me wish I'd paid more attention in shop class decades ago), even though my only power tools are a jig saw, a drill and a screwdriver. Laying track is easier than ever, and I enjoy that too. If those thiings don't sound like fun to you then I'd feel no shame in hiring someone to help. Even a custom builder does not have to do it all.
I could imagine hiring someone to help with wiring and DCC installation, even though everyone insists it is really very easy (which they used to say about DC block control before DCC came around!).
Some very skilled modelers have hired experts to paint backdrops. Othere have hired experts to do the scenery. And these are guys anybody would call very very fine modelers.
And I could imagine someone using an outside expert with any needed room preparation: suspended ceiling, lighting, electrical circuits, a master "off" switch near the exit, crew lounge, etc. Knowing what I know now, I wish either I had done more room prep or hired someone to do it for me.
Some hire experts do the track plan and nothing else but the track plan. Some do so with owner participation, others do not.
There is no shame in hiring help for what you do not care to do yourself or are unable to do yourself. There are many other elements of the hobby where you can show that you are a "true" modeler.
Unless you have a physical limitation of some sort, I would say that in my opinion no matter how daunting it might look, there is no one step or aspect of building and running a nice big layout that is beyond the average guy. But if getting started is proving to be an impossible barrier, then consider where outside hired help could kickstart things - and decide where you'd like to take over.
Dave Nelson
I think the responses on this forum are going to be a bit lop-sided as everyone here IS a modeller to some extent and has built their own layout.
However, there must be a lot of people who don't have the time or the talent to do so, else all these custom layout businesses would cease to exist.
The big question is what YOU want to do hands-on. If you enjoy building scenery, you could hire somebody to build the benchwork, lay the track and get it wired and running, then you can take over. These custom layout builders usually charge by the square foot based on stages of completion. The scenery stage is usually the most expensive per square foot as it requires the most time and cost of structures.
For that matter, you may even be able to talk one of the "experts" at your club to help you with the benchwork / track laying aspect or even hire them to do it FOR you.
Ultimately, it comes down to that time / money balance. Many of us would love to walk into the train room and have the basics all done for us, but financially, that isn't always possible.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
There is the journey and the destination. Sometimes the journey can be as much or more fun than the destination.
I always consider that the layout is the hobby,and the trains are the actors that make it alive.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Yeah, what they said. This isn't a "buyers' hobby." It's a "builders' hobby." To truly enjoy it, you must take an active role. Unless you are too physically challenged to actually build a layout, you can actually build a layout. You can get plaster and paint on your hands. It washes off. There is an inner child within you that really wants to play in the mud and get all dirty. Indulge him.
You're not alone. Drop by here and ask questions. We have most of the answers, and for the rest, well, at least we've got some suggestions and a few snide remarks.
Welcome aboard.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I didn't realize when I posted this piece that most opinions probably would be somewhat biased. But the last few responses have been encouraging. If I knew what I knew now and had the financial means to do so I would have had the benchwork, electrical, and tracklaying done for me and I would finish it off myself with scenery and structure building/placement.
The part that I enjoy the most is running trains and operations. Nothing like coming home and just being able to go to one's train room, relax and turn on the layout to watch trains run or adding that finishing scenic element that makes it one step closer to reality. When I said empire I didn't mean a big layout I just meant the layout room in general which included the layout.
The older guy at the club whose from the ol skool train of thought felt that the reason why these custom model builders are so expensive is because the newer generation wants everything right now. I don't see anything wrong with that. We live in a time now where everything competes for our time, work long days, gym, pets, etc. so time does matter.
Regg05The older guy at the club whose from the ol skool train of thought felt that the reason why these custom model builders are so expensive is because the newer generation wants everything right now.
It's expensive because it's a lot of work. The hourly rates these guys charge is no higher than what you'd pay a plumber, electrician, finish carpenter... Skilled labor doesn't come cheap.
Regg05 Happy Friday MRR I can't get this debate with a fellow enthuasist out of my head. A few days ago at my local model railroad club I was showing a friend of mine who is new to the hobby and club a few pictures of my layout that I'm starting. I admit I'm new to the idea of building it myself so I'm having someone help me which is causing the layout to be built painstakingly slow. However he asked the question why don't I hire someone to build the entire thing? Especially if someone lacks modeling skills, tools, space to build it in, etc. He had some valid points and at this point another older member joined in the conversation to which he replied "its not a layout if you don't put your own sweat blood and tears in it and furthermore you won't get the satisfaction out of it when finished". This debate continued back and forth for a few hours until I left the club. Friend still thinks it causes more headaches in the long run if you don't have any of the things mentioned above and even more so if you lack electrical and good math skills for calculating grade percents, radius curves, etc. So the discussion will continue this weekend when I see him. However with the price of having someone or a firm build a layout is it ever feasible? Just for experiement purposes I called a few firms and gave them the dimensions of my layout 8x12 and I was quoted anywhere from $15,000 all the way to a mind blowing $60,000. While I don't understand how these prices are calculated it seems to be a little steep even for a hobby such as ours. I will admit if I had the money I probably would have went the custom route Heck I would have just as much fun at the finished product and a lot less headaches at the waiting. Your thoughts? Regg
I guess if your interest in the hobby is having a model railroad to operate; or, simply own, you have the money to have it built for you and you have no interest in the process of building it; or the modeling processes involved, than go ahead and have it built for you. If like myself, you enjoy all the processes involved in building a model railroad, then build it yourself! There certainly also can be portions you hire done, while you do the others. It can be any proportion you hire; or, you build, it is totally up to you.
For me, the hobby is all about the enjoyment I get from doing it. I did all the study and all of the building it took to have what I have. I could not of afforded to hire it done and I would have had no pride in it, if I had. But, that is only me!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Regg05:
I probably qualify as an older guy.
I built my first layout 35 years ago without help or advice. Trains even ran.When we moved that was forn down and joined a club, built two sections for the club portable layout, with advice and criticism. Also help building and rebuilding clubhouse layout.
A dozen years ago I built my present layout, with little help but lots of advice. The building was enjoyable, group operations is fun as well.
If I won a lottery I would have a house built, even if I did help build one in the past. I would have bench work built, because I've done that, the hiring help would be faster.
The rest I would do, because I enjoy it. Remember this is a hobby, how you do things is up to you.
This is a hobby.
Do the fun parts.
Use RTR, pre-built, etc for the parts that aren't fun or where time is short.
Hire out what you need to and can afford.
Personally, I prefer to build everything myself. But I do use as much RTR as I can, because I'm short on time and want a large layout. When the layout is operational, I'll go back to kit building and scratchbuilding.
Enjoy
Paul
A few years back a high-rolling financial tycoon ended up getting a bill for $2.7 huge for the fancy layout he wanted built double-quick in the drawing room of his Hampton hovel. (Never did find out how the lawsuit settled...)
If I suddenly acquired a gold mine (or the profit from one) I might hire help - but I would still be the planner and general superintendent. Part of the reason is that I get a lot of satisfaction from doing things myself. A bigger part is that I'm working to a master plan that will celebrate its fiftieth birthday in September - so I want things done MY way, no deviation allowed.
A minor sub-thought. If you didn't build it, how do you fix it when some imperfection shows up? On the layout I'm building, I know every length of rail and wire by its name, rank and service number. When I had to dive into repairs on a club layout where I wasn't an original builder I spent more time tracing wires and drawing the schematics I needed than I did actually working.
Whether you do the building or pay someone else, make sure you have full documentation of EVERYTHING. Don't find yourself looking at a wire soldered to the center of another, all three ends leading off to oblivion, wondering just what the heck that is and what's it supposed to do.
I, too, love operation - TTTO to my prototype's timetable. I also enjoy the building that underlies it. Others have different priorities. I would not denigrate another's choices because they differ from mine. In the final analysis, do whatever results in the highest satisfaction for YOU. Don't worry about pleasing other people (except the one you're married to.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - my way)
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Hi!
I've been playing with trains for way over 60 years. And that said, I've got a lot of opinions about the hobby. And that's all they are, my opinions:
- IMO, the biggest pleasure of MR is building a layout from concept to the operational level.
- IMO, having a decent layout built for you is a very expensive endeavor, but the end result will mean less than one you build yourself.
- IMO, if you are not a tinkerer, or have basic hands on skills (or the will to acquire those skills), you will not make it as an MR for very long.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
IRONROOSTER This is a hobby. Do the fun parts. Use RTR, pre-built, etc for the parts that aren't fun or where time is short. Hire out what you need to and can afford. Personally, I prefer to build everything myself. But I do use as much RTR as I can, because I'm short on time and want a large layout. When the layout is operational, I'll go back to kit building and scratchbuilding. Enjoy Paul
If I'd rather have someone build my layout for me, do I still have to use ready to run stuff, if that's the part I find fun?
It seems to me that if you lack the time, and/or lack the skills, and have the money to spare, then by all means pay someone else. I could also see someone paying a professional if the objective is to have a museum quality layout. Another good reason to pay someone else would be an instance where disabilities do not permit the model railroader to build his own layout.
My concern would be for someone that hires a professional simply because the modeler is afraid to tackle the job himself, perceiving that he lacks the skillls. To that modeler, I say, at least make an attempt to build a layout yourself. Start small, do the benchwork, do the wiring, do the landscaping, and see what you get.
Rich
Alton Junction
One additional thought..........
If someone else builds it, who is going to maintain it? And make no mistake, maintaining a layout is directly proportional to its size and complexity. Frankly, if you can't build it, you likely will not be able to maintain it.
I can see the wants of buying the build but few profesional builders are very could (note I did not say none!!!!!!!!!). Your best bet to move you along is to buy the bechwork from others (which can be expencive) and do the rest yourself. With the modern methods of track laying etc. it is not hard to get profesional results meaning foam and caulk.
LION is a monk. Him lives in a monastery. LION does not need to file IRS return, because income of LION is $0.00. LION not going to get a professional to build anything. Zookeeper will not spring for such expenses.
LION must build of him self by himself with such materials as him can find. Still LION found a former class room above the Library that seemed to *want* a model railroad in it. So LION builded said railroad.
LION says him builds railroad on the CHEAP. No money, and actually, very little skill. LIONS are not all that skillfull what with big furry paws and claws where the fingers are supposed to be. LION can not see as well as he used to, and neuropathy in the feet makes ballance an issue, and neuropath in the fingers makes holding little things an issue as well. Still LION builds what he can, as he can and is happy with the results. This Layout has now been ten years in the making. Boy does time ever fly, it was not so long ago that the LION was 27, now last time him looked him is 67 and growing older. Him would like to "finish" this layout before time finishes the LION. Time will tell, and will win in the end.
Here are some secrets of LION The track in the foreground is mounted directly to a 2" thick piece of fiberglass roofing insulation recovered (with permission) from the dumpster at a job site. Notice how LION uses blocks of foam to support the trackway. These were cut down in the wood shop, each one 1/4" longer that the next, and spaced to that the incline was what I wanted.
Now above this is the 42nd Street station (facing the other way, of course), and it too is built on a 2" thick fiberglass piece, with similar fiberglass uprights supporting it. The pink foam is the back side of the backdrop for the Smith 9th Street Station just to the left of that bridge over the Gowanus Canal.
Turning the camera just 30 degrees to the north from the above picture wie find this:
Examine the construction and see if you do not agree with the LION that building big does not need to be as complicated as the editors at MR would have you think.
Bulletproof construction, no, functional, yes.
The outside edge of the table does not include the track that was added (on that black ledge) which was added after I expanded the layout.
The table material used here is 1/2" Celotex, a material no longer available, but of which we had 10 sheets salvaged from a building remodling job stored in the (former) gymnasium.What you are looking at is a pair of Looooong helixes that depart from a comon point on the other side of the table, The Smith-9th Street Station. One pair of tracks (the express tracks) travels down on that "1710" level and around again to the level below that to rejoin with the track on the black level aroung the curve behind me. The other pair of tracks (the Local tracks) travel up through the 8th street station, around to the 42nd street station, and then up to the Coney Island station on the top level here.
Note the lack of supports to the top level. It was built on a "mini-table" (see its cross supports?) and that table held in place by a set of four wooden legs connecting to the open frame work table on the black track level.
LION uses no roadbed or ballast, this is a subway layout, and this back view, not open to the public will still have stations that can be photographed and also viewed from the Rail-Fan Cam attached to the front of a train.
Here is the north end of this same table that we have been looking at.
In the foreground it the local track as it leaves the South Ferry station to the left. The middle two tracks that you see are the express tracks looping down. That train will pass trough the Lenox Street station to the right, and then come around agian on the lower level left to right into the Nevins Street sation.
Directly behind that pink view block, is the local train traveling left to right up to the 8th Street station. A train there would continue around to the 42nd Street station off picture to the ring, and across a track not seen here left to right to the Coney Island station on the upper level West. I call this place the "Gold Street Interlocking" and is is surely not as complicated as it looks, and is far far less complicated that the Gold Street plant in Brooklyn whcih also weaves throug several levels from the Manhattan Bridge to the deKalb Avenue Station.
We were looking at the west side of the west island, here is the rest of the layout (almost)
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Well, my thoughts run along the lines of what has been stated here. It is the journey not the destination and that said I want to be a part of all of it.
The great thing about model railroading is that nothing is set in concrete. If you try something and it does'nt work out to well, you just tear it out and try something different until you get it to a point that you are satisfied with it. (note) It does make those changes a lot easier if you decide to do them before you ballast your track. That does not mean you can't make changes afterward, but it becomes more time consumming and somewhat more costly as you might lose some track and/or turnouts.
But for all of us here it has been a learning experience and we have all gained skills as we went along. Some of us have learned more than others and some of us are still on that journey. This week was the first time I have poured a water feature, which I was a little hesitant in doing. but it went well and that hesitancy for that aspect has vanished. I will do that again in a minute.
Procrastingating in getting started is the worst part. I dilly daddled for about three years trying to get the right track plan and could never really get satisfied. I did have a general idea, so I just dived in and started building now I have a 17' x 13' layout that is operational but only about 1/4 landscaped.
Keep in mind what the namesake of our Diner always said. .." there is no such word in my vocabulary as CAN'T". You just learn to do it.
Good luck,
Johnboy out...................
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)