emdmikeSpend hours calling every LHS that will do mail order? No, I find it online and buy it there. The LHS cannot be expected to stock everything, and with the limited runs if you dont get it right then, you cant. So I try to spread my spending $$ around between all buying areas. Mikie
Mike,As you may already know the majority of those on line shops is a b&m shop that has a on line presence and that includes many of the e-Bay stores.
I agree if one missed a limited run model or the LHS failed to submit enough preorders due to cash flow or poor credit one needs to turn to the on line shops to obtain that model.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Yes the demand for brass is dying, used to be brass was the only way to get RTR highly detailed models, not anymore!
I'll be the first to admit that I'm stuck in the 20 th century...actualyl 1950's and 60's, but that works for me. My point about most everything model railroading being today traded on line could be a disservice to possible new entrants, Other than good train shows and club open houses where are new folks going to be inspired. I don't buy the video bit as an introduction (possibly it could arouse interests).....same as in my once field...avaition. Many have bought the farm due to FAA allowing so much simulator time for advanced ratings vs....actual cockpit time. Opening the door to the simulator after a terribe performance can in no way be compared to an actual mishap(crash).
The other point is acquiring the many things needed to build a railroad on line, although staples are now becoming available on the net. It is possible the the LHS will become a fixture in American folklore, but the several really fine and viable shops in my area my sing a different tune.
I've said all I can on this beaten to death subject other than I love the hobby and will in any way do what I can to keep it alive and well.
HZ
Problem is Howard, for pretty much anything vintage brass, you have to go online. I do try to shop at dealers, but some are really smoking some serious ditch weed on thier prices. Seem to be stuck about 5-7 years ago price wise, when it was a hot market. Now its not and prices have cooled off. But they havent and wont come down. So, being that I desire older geared brass engines, that leaves ebay. Even the LHS has one I would like to have, but not at what he is asking. And that is why he still has it and the rest of the decades old product on his shelves. He prices are above MSRP on most items. And you dont know till you ask as nothing is priced on the shelf. I feel being unflexable on prices, and not marking them does more of a diservice to the hobby than buying online. These days, most modelers I know shop at shows, hobby shops and online. They look for the best deal and for limited run items they missed out on. Many times the LHS cannot get what I want due to limited runs, so what is one to do? Go without? Spend hours calling every LHS that will do mail order? No, I find it online and buy it there. The LHS cannot be expected to stock everything, and with the limited runs if you dont get it right then, you cant. So I try to spread my spending $$ around between all buying areas. Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Howard Zane BRAKIE Howard Zane fear for the future of this hobby. Also I feel that every purchase made on line is another nail in the hobby's coffin.
BRAKIE Howard Zane fear for the future of this hobby. Also I feel that every purchase made on line is another nail in the hobby's coffin.
Howard Zane fear for the future of this hobby. Also I feel that every purchase made on line is another nail in the hobby's coffin.
Joe C
One thing about the closing of Greenfield News and Hobby most people are missing is the "News" part. 20 years ago I was easily spending $25 a month, every month, there. Now it's maybe one mag every couple of months, and I am not alone. That whole trade has dried up due to online alternatives, with a loss of many magazines.
Howard,I been blissed by three fully stock hobby shops over the past 60 years and its those shops I miss..All close due to the owners retiring in later years.
For me its a no brainer..If I can save $50-60.00 on a locomotive by buying on line then so be it..If I was buying one or two freight cars then the amount of saving would be lost in shipping so,a local shop would get that business---------if I had a local shop.
BRAKIE Howard Zane fear for the future of this hobby. Also I feel that every purchase made on line is another nail in the hobby's coffin. Howard, Nothing changes since I heard that before except the mail order shops that advertised in MR and RMC will be the death of the hobby. On line shoping and the various on line forums plus the you tube model railroad videos will do more good then a dusty hobby shop with grumpy owners or employees that could careless about customer service or watch every move you make.I do not miss those shops. I never had any hobby shop owner to go up and beyond in order to provide good customer service. I have had them to charge me full MSRP while giving local club members or their friends discounts and coupled with poor service I turned first to mail ordering than in 2001 ordering from on line shops and two years later I added e-Bay shopping..
Howard, Nothing changes since I heard that before except the mail order shops that advertised in MR and RMC will be the death of the hobby.
On line shoping and the various on line forums plus the you tube model railroad videos will do more good then a dusty hobby shop with grumpy owners or employees that could careless about customer service or watch every move you make.I do not miss those shops.
I never had any hobby shop owner to go up and beyond in order to provide good customer service.
I have had them to charge me full MSRP while giving local club members or their friends discounts and coupled with poor service I turned first to mail ordering than in 2001 ordering from on line shops and two years later I added e-Bay shopping..
BRAKIEHoward, Nothing changes since I heard that before except the mail order shops that advertised in MR and RMC will be the death of the hobby. On line shoping and the various on line forums plus the you tube model railroad videos will do more good then a dusty hobby shop with grumpy owners or employees that could careless about customer service or watch every move you make.I do not miss those shops. I never had any hobby shop owner to go up and beyond in order to provide good customer service. I have had them to charge me full MSRP while giving local club members or their friends discounts and coupled with poor service I turned first to mail ordering than in 2001 ordering from on line shops and two years later I added e-Bay shopping..
Larry,
Please re-read my prior posts. I argumement is that a really good shop could succeed (AND HAS). During my many travels and visiting many shops, most were like what you described.....poorly staffed, lousy location, poor selection of merchandise in addition to being boring. high prices......need I go on?
hz
...and he may well have done that, can't say for sure.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain I'm sure that the owner's rationale was volume discount. I would typically walk out of the place with at least a couple of hundred dollars worth of purchases, and I did that often. A lot of his customers were not "regulars". They might stop by to browse and then maybe buy a small item or two. Rich
I'm sure that the owner's rationale was volume discount. I would typically walk out of the place with at least a couple of hundred dollars worth of purchases, and I did that often. A lot of his customers were not "regulars". They might stop by to browse and then maybe buy a small item or two.
Actually, you could codify that. I.E. $10 off if you spend over $100, $20 over $200, etc. Or say 15% off if you spend $500 or more. That way it's available to everyone.
Enjoy
Paul
Speaking specifically of customer service...the internet has also undercut many LHSs in this regard by the myriad of free information that is available to the surfer. Perhaps people aren't always as confident in an internet posting or a YouTube video compared to an experienced and friendly LHS employee, but there is useful information that is now available on the net where in the past there wasn't.
And if a LHS would install a decoder or a can motor, there are probably others on the net that would do that too for a similar fee.
I'm not saying that information or service provided by the internet is necessarily better or equal to that provided by the LHS, I'm simply saying that the LHS no longer has a monopoly on providing the hobbyist guidance and labor.
- Douglas
richhotrain Victor, I have no quarrel with the success of your local hobby shop. That is fine. If, in fact, I still had a model railroading shop near me, I would shop there, even if I had to pay retail prices. But I would limit my purchases to what I absolutely needed at the moment, while continuing to shop on the Internet for discounted prices on major items such as locomotives or electronics. My point was that when I had a LHS in my area, I could get discounted prices. Given the choice, I would not pay more for good customer service. I don't see any need to do so. Rich
Victor, I have no quarrel with the success of your local hobby shop. That is fine.
If, in fact, I still had a model railroading shop near me, I would shop there, even if I had to pay retail prices. But I would limit my purchases to what I absolutely needed at the moment, while continuing to shop on the Internet for discounted prices on major items such as locomotives or electronics.
My point was that when I had a LHS in my area, I could get discounted prices.
Given the choice, I would not pay more for good customer service. I don't see any need to do so.
Rich,
That kind of selective pricing is very dangerous from a marketing stand point. People talk, and other people can become very offended when they find out they have been not getting the best price.
Club discounts, senior discounts, can actually drive away other customers as well, but at least those discounts have guidelines. Selective discressionary discounting can really backfire.
AND, as I have said before, you simply can't make enough money unless you can buy it for 60 cents and sell it for $1 unless you are WalMart, and even they need to average out at near 30% to make their 5% net.
So buying from a distributor, and giving you even 10%, puts most small shops in the whole or only breaking even on that sale after overhead.
Sheldon
HaroldAWhenever I walk in the door, I have to pass the check out counter - as a customer I am hardly ever acknowledged. The 'train guy' never, and I mean never, comes out from behind his computer to offer anyone assistance and when I do purchase something, a simple 'thank you' would be appreciated. As a consumer, I don't think any of these things are too much to ask for my continued business.
Rich:
We had another hobby shop in town that offered discounts. They have been out of business for a couple of years. It was a family owned business that had a couple more hobby shops, one in Indiana and another out of state. The whole thing went down the drain while my regular shop doesn't offer discounts and is still in business...
This weekend I'm going to drop in and get some help on ordering a can motor for a kitbashed loco I'm working on. I know I can talk to an experienced model railroader who'll make sure he orders what I need and even help with the installation later. Do you want to be like Wall Street and look for the short term profit only or do you want to pay a little extra and get some good customer assistance?
Victor A. Baird
www.erstwhilepublications.com
At first a hobby shop's competetion was mail order, than discount mail order, and now discount on line shopping. Like any business, to succeed, the management must be better or at least as good as the competitor. Granted it is frustating to drive a mess of miles to visit a train store, and not only see retail prices, but not find exactly what you are looking for. I sincerely believe that the true competition for a LHS is the owner's own lack of ability to understand today's trends and lack of good business sense.
Almost like attending a really fine train show (which still draw thousands), similar experiences may be found by visiting a really fine shop. As mentioned in prior posting on this thread, out of several hundred shops I once vistited, only a small few would I ever think of returng to.
A good example of this would be a Wegmans supermarket. Sure I realize that comparing a food store to a train shop is ridiculous at best, but if you have ever visited a Wegmans, you'll see first hand how they have literally devoured competitors in their locales. It is all about business sense, and I believe that the decling market woes are possibly an excuse. Also as previously posted, I and many of you in the mid-Atlantic area have seen how a really fine train shop may not only survice, but flourish.
Sermon for the day
It is a sad day when any local business closes. I live in a small town and always try to support the local people despite the big box stores that have been built over the years. It says something when you walk into a place and they call you by name, provide assistance and practically hold the door open. Unfortunately my LHS hasn't learned that lesson. Whenever I walk in the door, I have to pass the check out counter - as a customer I am hardly ever acknowledged. The 'train guy' never, and I mean never, comes out from behind his computer to offer anyone assistance and when I do purchase something, a simple 'thank you' would be appreciated. As a consumer, I don't think any of these things are too much to ask for my continued business.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
wabash2800 I posted this on another site but thought it worth noting as to why I go to my local hobby shop for my items and pay retail price.
I posted this on another site but thought it worth noting as to why I go to my local hobby shop for my items and pay retail price.
With the Internet as his competition, my LHS guy had to deal with a lot of "customers" who came in, shopped, asked questions, then left and bought the item on the Internet at a discounted price. They might buy some small items such as a bottle of paint, a bag of track nails, a bottle of ground cover, but the big ticket items such as locomotives were shopped there, then bought elsewhere.
So, his dilemma was giving advice and demonstrating items only to watch the "customer" leave without making a purchase. I could get the advice and service while purchasing as a discount. That was the beauty of the LHS to me, not paying retail just to get the advice and service. Unfortunately, there just weren't enough of us to support the LHS, and it eventually closed.
I can drive 60 minutes round trip to my nearest LHS nowadays and pay retail, but why bother? I just do all of my shopping now on the Internet at discounted prices. When I am really in a pinch and need something now, I make the trip and pay retail.
One of the things you learn either by working in the retail business or studying marketing is that people will pay more (at least retail price in this scenario) for good service and a good business relationship with the retailer. I really enjoy going to my local hobby shop. The owner, (his father recently passed away), Steve, is in the hobby shop everyday it's open. Steve also has knowledgeable model railroad guys manning the model railroad section on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Sundays. He wouldn't have to provide a model railroad section. It doesn't pay the bills (according to a conversation I had with his father one day) as he sells plenty of other hobby items like remote control cars, radio control aircraft and drones, for example. It's a pretty good size store and the inventory depth is quite impressive. (Yes, Steve and his father have been in the hobby business for quite a few years with three locations at one time. And they do mail-order and have an on-line presence.) If I need supplies for my latest scratch-building project or the layout, Steve usually has it in stock like paints, styrene, wood, tools, track, etc. And if he doesn't, his people can order it and have it for me in less than a week. And I don't pay shipping like I would if I ordered it myself. Steve also keeps a good selection of magazines and how-to-books on hand plus videos. And what about those remote control cars, radio control aircraft, drones, etc? Do I need repair or a tune-up? His people can do it. I know that if I ever have a problem with a product I purchased there, he will make it right and will give me a quantity discount for large purchases of track, etc. Steve is not a model railroader but he's knowledgeable but probably more so with other items. The other day I watched and listened as he indoctrinated a customer that was interested in purchasing a drone. It was not a hard sell but a discussion about the pros and cons of various models and manufacturers and his first hand experience with flying them. Now, if I were making a major purchase like that, that's what I would pay retail for. Sure, I could study up on it on the internet and chat with other users (with many opinions) and then find the lowest price. But what happens when I get that item in the mail and it's missing parts or I'm having some problems putting it together or learning how to fly it? If I bought it at Phil's, I know Steve or one of his employees would be more than happy to help me out. That's what you pay retail for. And when my first book came out, I asked Steve if he'd be willing to sell my book. Guess what? I've been giving him wholesale and he keeps restocking them as they sell out. And I get paid promptly. It's a win-win-win for Steve, me and those folks that buy my book there. He doesn't pay shipping and neither do those folks that buy my books there. And yes, my books are sold at retail price... I have just a few books left and some folks are waiting for them to get discounted at Amazon, Barnes & Nobles or other big book stores. Guess what, I've had nothing but compliments and no one has had a problem paying retail.Victor A. Baird
www.erstwhilepublications.
Howard Zane Note, all the shops that i mentioned are in my estimation..above and beyond. I had forgot to include Moose Caboose in Sykesville, Md. They are a major plus for this hooby for us locals and others. A word about Tommy Gilbert and his shop. I could not have built my (sort of large) pike with out his help. Often during construction when I ran out of a particular item, a call to Gilberts would result in what I needed at my door the following morning....and often Tommy would hand deliver or have a mutual friend deliver the items. In my estimation he is fullest definition of "service and follow-up". I have no problem in paying retail or close for this kind of service and support this wonderful person has offered the hobby for years. When shops like this eventually close their doors. I fear for the future of this hobby. Also I feel that every purchase made on line is another nail in the hobby's coffin. I fully understand today's marketing and sales trends, but I sure as hell do not condone it! HZ
Note, all the shops that i mentioned are in my estimation..above and beyond. I had forgot to include Moose Caboose in Sykesville, Md. They are a major plus for this hooby for us locals and others.
A word about Tommy Gilbert and his shop. I could not have built my (sort of large) pike with out his help. Often during construction when I ran out of a particular item, a call to Gilberts would result in what I needed at my door the following morning....and often Tommy would hand deliver or have a mutual friend deliver the items. In my estimation he is fullest definition of "service and follow-up". I have no problem in paying retail or close for this kind of service and support this wonderful person has offered the hobby for years. When shops like this eventually close their doors. I fear for the future of this hobby. Also I feel that every purchase made on line is another nail in the hobby's coffin. I fully understand today's marketing and sales trends, but I sure as hell do not condone it!
Howard, I understand and agree, but there is no way to put the Genie back in the bottle.
Ted Klein, Hobbies for Men, Trainworld and the rest of them let the Genie out starting some 40 plus years ago with the discounting. The sheer knowledge that you can buy stuff at a lower price makes most people unwilling to pay a higher price - it is human nature. We saw it coming 35 years ago when I was running a train department in a full line hobby shop.
So with no room in the pricing structure for distributors, dealers must be bigger and buy better. And any price advantage originally gained by off shore production has been lost to changing global economy and to the preorder system.
For me, nothing about this hobby requires overnight delivery, but I do like a nicely stocked store to shop at.
I don't know if you fully understand your own unique position in this hobby? Your talent is beyond measure, and the depth and breath of your expriance in the hobby is amazing. Most of us have not had the time or the resources to accomplish what you have accomplished in this hobby even if we have the skills.
I agree the the hobby as we know it is in some sort of change/jeopardy, and the supply chain is part of the problem - but I don't see any kind of fix beyond letting the market correct itself.
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason. Gettysburg is a very small town, but on the other hand I found a 2008 article that states that the average number of visitors per year was 2.9 million. Certainly a few of them help the walk-in numbers. True, but they have to be looking for a train store, its not like Gillberts is across the street from the Battlefield Vistor Center. Sheldon Ah, but they pretty much used to be. Before they moved and before the new visitors center was opened. When they were on Steinwehr Ave (Bus. Rt 15), you could hardly miss them. I remember buying some All Nation trucks and other goodies there some 30+ years ago. Enjoy Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason. Gettysburg is a very small town, but on the other hand I found a 2008 article that states that the average number of visitors per year was 2.9 million. Certainly a few of them help the walk-in numbers. True, but they have to be looking for a train store, its not like Gillberts is across the street from the Battlefield Vistor Center. Sheldon
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason. Gettysburg is a very small town, but on the other hand I found a 2008 article that states that the average number of visitors per year was 2.9 million. Certainly a few of them help the walk-in numbers.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason.
Gettysburg is a very small town, but on the other hand I found a 2008 article that states that the average number of visitors per year was 2.9 million. Certainly a few of them help the walk-in numbers.
True, but they have to be looking for a train store, its not like Gillberts is across the street from the Battlefield Vistor Center.
Ah, but they pretty much used to be. Before they moved and before the new visitors center was opened. When they were on Steinwehr Ave (Bus. Rt 15), you could hardly miss them. I remember buying some All Nation trucks and other goodies there some 30+ years ago.
Tommy's is the one hobby shop my wife really likes because they have a row of old coach seats near the registers. This not only lets her rest while I shop, but it also gives her a chance to monitor my spending. That said, we haven't been there in years because of my health issues, illnesses among our parents, etc.
Of our two shops here in town, one has old/dusty stuff on the shelves, loads of unpriced used stuff and an owner that is clueless and stubborn. Nothing ever really sells and most locals dont go there anymore. I go for paint and a few small supplies when I dont have a trip to the shop I prefer in Indianapolis planned. The other shop is starting to fall on hard times due to an owner that refuses to get in the current century or properly stock stuff. My prefered shop is one Train Central in Indianapolis, they not only stock new stuff, but deal in estates and older brass. Most all my locomotives are older brass imports, and my rolling stock are older kits, either shake the box style or craftsman. The fragile new plastic stuff, $25 freight cars and even higher passenger car have zero interest to me. About the only "new" stuff I purchase are building kits, scenery supplies and modeling supplies. So that brick and morter shop gets my $$ and the $$ of lots of other modelers that are of the same mind set as myself. I hate to see any shop fail and close, but if the owners do not want to get with the times or diversify themselves, then fail they will. Mikie
Uncle_Bob ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich and all, one more point - of the three stores Howard listed, the two with the smallest web presence are NOT located in/near a major city. Blue Ridge Summit PA is in the middle of rural no where, and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason. BUT, even the "rural" areas in this part of the country have strong sections of "bedroom suburbia" - there are a lot of people here. Sheldon And those stores in PA are located in an area where an awful lot of state and federal workers.with relatively deep pockets live, and commute to Harrisburg or DC. If they didn't live there, the stores wouldn't have the foot traffic to stay open.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich and all, one more point - of the three stores Howard listed, the two with the smallest web presence are NOT located in/near a major city. Blue Ridge Summit PA is in the middle of rural no where, and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason. BUT, even the "rural" areas in this part of the country have strong sections of "bedroom suburbia" - there are a lot of people here. Sheldon
Rich and all, one more point - of the three stores Howard listed, the two with the smallest web presence are NOT located in/near a major city.
Blue Ridge Summit PA is in the middle of rural no where, and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason.
BUT, even the "rural" areas in this part of the country have strong sections of "bedroom suburbia" - there are a lot of people here.
And those stores in PA are located in an area where an awful lot of state and federal workers.with relatively deep pockets live, and commute to Harrisburg or DC. If they didn't live there, the stores wouldn't have the foot traffic to stay open.
True, demographicly this is generally a higher income region than many areas - and this has never been an inexpensive hobby.
The Mid Atlantic in general does benifit from being close to Mother Government, lots of government workers, defense contractors, millitary bases, the Langley phone company.